2014 Gulf Air Bahrain Grand Prix

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by SVT Cobra GT, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. Barra333

    Barra333 Premium

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    Quite possibly. Ricciardo's penalty was based on something that could have been dangerous (and, as mentioned has been before). Forcing someone into a barrell roll as opposed to a spin is dangerous. I think it is perfectly OK to base the penalty on the outcome if the possible outcomes are quite different.

    Another example: Oscar Pistorius is up for murder because he shot his girlfriend. If it was an intruder, there is a chance he would be free on self defence. Same action. Different outcome.
     
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  2. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne Premium

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    Ricciardo's penalty can't be judged against Guttierez's, it was for something completely different.

    I've already said that the penalties for unsafe releases such as this one should be harsh - this incident represented an easy opportunity for someone to be killed. Then not only has someone lost their life but the sport would change radically, modern insurance is hugely expensive and can be a "breaker" for large venues (see Sporting Regs for their insurance responsibilities). Therefore Daniel Ricciardo's penalty was correct even if it seems harsh against the outcome.

    Malfunctionardo... I mean Maldonardo's penalty was correct; 30s race time (ish), 3 points on his Super Scooper and a five place grid drop for the next race. That's the standard penalty plus the additional penalties allowed at the discretion of the stewards.

    Pit stop releases shouldn't be gradeable in the same way - the penalty should always be harsh and fixed. For accidents such as this one the stewards should retain their statutory-plus-discretion powers.
     
  3. Barra333

    Barra333 Premium

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    I maintain that the stupidity loading on Maldonado should be more.
     
  4. Grayfox

    Grayfox

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    He must be a special case or the FIA have just given up on punishing him.
     
  5. Samus

    Samus

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    He got penalised three times, I don't see how that was lenient. Is it just because his grid drop was less than Ricciardo's?
     
  6. Grayfox

    Grayfox

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    No.

    His race was screwed due to a screw up in pits
    Then get gets a stop go
    then a 10 grid spot.

    Just salting the wound is what it seems like.
     
  7. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    And if we are going to give out penalties of could happens, then Pastor should have easily gotten the same degree. Esteban could have been killed (highly unlikely just like the loose tire), or safety workers cleaning up a mess could have been hurt if someone made a mistake near the location, for an accident that was highly avoidable. Surely if your fine with one knee jerk reaction then you're okay with others as well. At least that's the way I see the penalties.
     
  8. Prince.M5

    Prince.M5

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    Remember.. Ricciardo got a 10 place penalty and nothing else, not even the team got fined or any points deduction to his license. Maldonado got a 5 place penalty + a stop/go penalty + 3 points to his license. So yeah... I don't see anything lenient in this.
     
  9. aarror

    aarror

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    Ricciardo also got a drive through.

    Having said that, I still don't see a problem with his penalty. A loose wheel is incredibly dangerous, and should be punished. It may seem harsh on Ricciardo since he couldn't do anything about it, but win as a team and lose as a team. Rules are rules.

    Maldonado's penalty seems fine to me, if Gutierrez hadn't flipped we wouldn't be having this conversation. 99 times from 100 they both just break suspension or pick up punctures, it was a low speed crash. It certainly wasn't on the same level as Grosjean at Spa, or even many of Pastors other crashes. To me at least, the penalty fits the crime.
     
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  10. Dodzzz

    Dodzzz

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    Exactly! the flip over is what makes it more dramatic, but I don't wanna defend Maldonado's stupidity here.. especially after the race he still thinks that it was Gutierrez' mistake (http://en.espnf1.com/bahrain/motorsport/story/153195.html)

    I think the punishment is enough.. although I want him a 1 race ban.. or even a 1 season ban.. this guy is just too dangerous.
     
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  11. TenEightyOne

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    Both of those drivers were in a regulated and protected space (ie the cockpit of an F1 car). The accident itself was very minor but was unluckily exacerbated by both tyres unloading against each other. Getting that "perfect angle" is pretty rare but, as we saw, it throws cars upwards. The car, drivers and track did their job as they're supposed to do.

    Taking a bouncing wheel in the teeth is a completely different matter and not a risk that pit personnel should accept as part of their job.
     
  12. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Yes I know all that, but what you must realize is that the car may get half way around the track and lose that tire or sadly do it 50 feet outside it's box down pit road. However, in either event none is guaranteed of injury and neither is Sauber/Lotus crash, but things can fail and though there are safety measures they aren't guaranteed. A tire rolling out and hitting a person out of the many times we've seen it before in itself is a rare event. My argument if you missed it is that both should be equally high and prevented by heavy punishment. I'm not saying RBR didn't deserve what they got but I think Pastor equally deserves the same punishment.
     
  13. TenEightyOne

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    @LMSCorvetteGT2 , Two drivers colliding on a track create their own penalty for themselves in terms of their race and the walk back into the garage.

    A team could release car in completely raceworthy position in such a way that a fast-lane collision occurs which leads to fatal debris-related injuries. Remember that Ricciardo's incident began because RB's pit system told him to "go". That penalty should always be harsher because it isn't guaranteed that an unsafe release actually means a dangerous car goes to track.

    There's also the commercial consideration. This is an awful thing to say but, I feel, true; if a driver were killed in a race it would actually bring publicity into the sport but if a spectator were killed it could finish it in some territories through insurance rises and negative publicity. I'm not happy saying that but I genuinely feel it's true.
     
  14. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    One it wasn't EG's fault so not sure where you get to say it creates a penalty for both, stick to the situation at hand not a general sweeping one.

    Wait what? So if an unsafe release potentially means that the car is still returning safely, the FIA isn't relying on the RBR system to tell them something went wrong. The issues here are the tire wasn't fully placed on the car, that issue one. Second issue is the team members were put at risk by having to fix their first wrong and pushing the car back to the box when some other car could have been coming down the lane. And then there are added issues that are hypothetical that FIA seems to be also tacking on. Not at all sure what you're getting at beyond the last portion which in itself makes not all that much sense.

    I highly doubt that, the FIA ban's on many questionable reasons like Romain's stupidity back in 2012 due to harming the "outcome of the F1 championship". That example among others is what is wrong with some FIA judgements that are based on the hypothetical knee jerk reaction of what could happen...
     
  15. TenEightyOne

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    Bloody hell, we really DO disagree on this one :)

    There was a penalty for EG, no doubt, but he wasn't at all at fault. I accept I could have been more clear about that. Remember that a penalty for a driver-at-fault (in this case Maldonardo) is set without consideration of the circumstances with the ability to add discretionary penalties based on severity. That's exactly what happened here. The base penalty is correct in being relatively minor, the discretionary powers of the stewards to add further penalties for serious incidents is also correct.


    I was being literal - a car that is in a completely safe condition in itself can be unsafely released. That would most obviously be into the path of another car.

    Ricciardo was cleared to go so he went - the mechanic hadn't finished fitting the wheel. His hands were clearly in the wheel when the car left. There's your immediate unsafe release.

    Which are the hypothetical issues that RBR are tacking on? I'm not saying they're not doing that, I just don't know what you mean :D

    That's my opinion, of course, and not fact. The death of a spectator would be hugely expensive in financial terms for an organiser in terms of their insurance. A risk of spectator death would have been realistically demonstrated and so the cost to other organisers would go up. Sponsor-attractiveness would go down, parts of the press would spin against F1, the super-expensive ruling-class green-non-green sport.

    A driver takes their own risks, insurance takes the rest. And it's damned expensive.
     
  16. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    That is life.

    And I realize that and I'm saying Pastor deserves more. It's quite simple, this guy has been on the radar since GP2 as a driver that is bull headed and prone to leaving his spatial awareness somewhere else. It's that fact alone that he just be given more punishment. I guarantee if this had been one of the Mercedes he would have been race banned.


    You made it sound as if the indicator (that infiniti symbol with the lights that replaced the lolli) didn't do the job intended and thus the decision was based on that. When in reality even if it didn't work it in no way indicates that the car has been unsafely released, in relation to a loose tire or not. Now what you're saying is different, or rather clearing it up. I think what you don't understand from my wording is that I agree RBR should have been punished, you seem to think the opposite of me. Even though I've been quite clear and blunt about it.



    I highly doubt any of these incidents could result in a death of spectator, death of a track worker yes. And even when cars are off the track workers have died as seen last year.
     
  17. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne Premium

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    Aye :D

    I don't disagree overall but the base causing-an-incident penalty isn't what you're quibbling with in that case... it's the extra discretionary "per-incident" penalty that the stewards can (and did) apply.

    It didn't

    I don't think I said that, I said that it triggered the incident. Which it did.

    No, it doesn't indicate that. Human observation could see that the car was released unsafely. Examination of the events shows that the car was released too early by the pit mechanism while the mechanic still had his hands in the wheel. That's enough for an unsafe release. Add to that the fact that the car then made its way into the fast lane with a loose wheel and you've got more than enough.

    I also agree they should be punished, I took your earlier point to be that the punishment was too harsh which I don't think it was. I then thought you drew a comparison with the penalty for Maldonado.vs.EG, I wouldn't agree with such a comparison being valid.

    And, only in my opinion, I think you're wrong. It's easily conceivable that a wheel detaching at speed could bounce into a crowd area. Very easily. It's miraculous that it doesn't happen more than it does.
     
  18. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    That's great I'm talking about the overall punishment and mainly the grid penalty, and it's obvious from the get go. Either your splitting hairs because you don't think I know what the heck I'm talking about, or you just don't remember what I've said prior like I do with you.


    I said it seemed or made it sound, no where do I say it absolutely was the case that you said that. Just what I gleamed from it and obviously needed clarification.

    That is what I said...at this point I think your just debating to debate rather than proving a point.

    I never said the punishment wasn't correct in a general sense to RBR and I think they should be punished, I'm saying if the idea is to prevent bodily injury or worse then across the board it should be equivalent. What I also said is I find it unfair to ruin a drivers chance at the next race because of what his team did that was out of his control, however if an equal punishment against them say DSQ on WCC points that driver makes or both, then they wont ever do it again.

    That's great, but I don't see how. It's not miraculous the placement of people watching the race and safety measures are more than enough to ensure tires don't come close. And with the way a tire detaches at speed from a moving vehicle the run off area is usually enough to slow it down and if not then there are barriers that do this as well with the fans far removed. If this were say Indy or NASCAR with there questionable methods at times of driver and spectator safety especially on ovals I could see your point. However it isn't and thus I can't. Obviously that's just the way it is.
     
  19. TenEightyOne

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    Fair do's, I got a bit "anatomy" of disaster on the detail... :D

    They will do it again through human error, the question is how hard the teams will try not to do it again. And to my mind the team and driver are inseparable in most sporting matters relating to the driver's position on track.

    If I seemed to imply that I think you don't know what you're talking about, I wasn't... you do. We simply have a different opinion and I cannot allow that to continue :D :D
     
  20. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Understood

    I'm sure the teams are trying quite hard, but error is reality of life. And I understand the teams and driver are going for the same goal, slightly. In F1 it's different and I don't know too many racing series if any others at all that peg drivers this hard for a crew mistake. Though I've explained my stance on this already and it's obviously not going to change.

    Also no hard feeling, I don't feel like you slighted me. Just letting you know what I know to save you on syntax.
     
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  21. kimkafwan

    kimkafwan

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  22. GOTMAXPOWER

    GOTMAXPOWER

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    Rosberg's onboard:

    [​IMG]
     
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  23. sems4arsenal

    sems4arsenal Premium

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    Reports that Stefano Domenicali is stepping down.
     
  24. King1982

    King1982 (Banned)

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    Just read it on Reddit



    Thank me later..
     
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  25. Ninners

    Ninners

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    Canal website has one of those from all of the races.
     
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  26. Prince.M5

    Prince.M5

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    And Autosport has covered it...
     
  27. sems4arsenal

    sems4arsenal Premium

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    Feel for him to be honest.
     
  28. Prince.M5

    Prince.M5

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    Yeah, definitely. But since Ferrari hasn't been going anywhere and with a lot of Ferrari fans demanding him to step down and get replaced, nothing much can be done. Hopefully the new face will fill up all the big gaps that hasn't been covered by Domenicali.
     
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  29. SVT Cobra GT

    SVT Cobra GT

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  30. sems4arsenal

    sems4arsenal Premium

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    Doubt it but will see.
     
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