2014 Gulf Air Bahrain Grand Prix

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by SVT Cobra GT, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. BHRxRacer

    BHRxRacer (Banned)

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    Watched the TV coverage in the weekend.

    The tyre thing was a confusion. You agree anyway, Rosberg was on it to pass Lewis with a faster tyre at the end. The safety car ruined that. It was a much better chance for Nico to pass had the safety car not gone out. Even Ted from sky said that.

    As for the moves, look at this:

    Furthermore, 20.5. The one you quoted. It doesn't say it's okay if there are no walls, it flat out says it's not permitted to hinder other drivers by pushing them off track.

    You can say it's karma for ALL THA TIME YOU HAVE TO LEAVE THE SPACE, but it doesn't matter.

    Bottom line is this, if the attacking driver has a "significant portion" of his car alongside the defending driver, you're entitled full width at all times. If you push the driver off, you ought to get a penalty. It didn't happen just once. There was also this move in lap 17-18 where Hamilton nearly took out Rosberg's front wing and Rosberg turned left in the last second. Rosberg actually complained on the radio. I didn't hear that at the track.

    Oh, and there weren't moves as aggressive as Hamilton's in the other battles. Except one involving the Williams, I think. Face it, Hamilton is a sore jealous loser that will do anything to win, just like Senna. Even before the Grand prix started on the warm up lap, he wanted to screw Nico. Notice how far he dropped back? He wanted Nico to sit on his grid spot for much longer. That could've overheated his engine and cooled his tyres.

    The race was fun, but quit being that anti-vettel guy from last year. You sound just like him. Hamilton did NOT outrace Rosberg. He bullied his way in, and Nico knew he wasn't getting past without contact so he didn't push back. FFS, that radio message "ive got no power", seriously? He was that freakin' desperate.

    Oh and if you think "nice guys finish last", I'll have to remind you this is a sport. It involves something called SPORTSMANSHIP. If you disagree, rename this motorSPORT section to motor racing.

    Wrong. Read above.
     
  2. VolkswagenX

    VolkswagenX

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    You must be really special if you believe Rosberg didn't gain anything from the safety cars. I'm not a Hamilton fan and I really don't care if he or Rosberg wins. Both of them are good drivers and in that race they did something good for the sport: giving us an exciting race to watch.

    No point in trying to explain. You hate Hamilton no matter what. Any normal person would see the safety car as bad luck for Lewis and would give him credit for still coming out on top.
     
  3. BHRxRacer

    BHRxRacer (Banned)

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    Have you seen Ted's notebook from skyf1? He agreed with what I said. I doubted myself after posting here last week, but now I'm sure I'm right. Even Niky sort of did as well.
     
  4. VolkswagenX

    VolkswagenX

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    No I haven't seen it and it should not matter because I've seen the race. Rosberg could not pass Hamilton with the help of a safety car, why would you think he could pass him without the safety car? The season is still long and Rosberg will have plenty of opportunity to win races and win the championship. We should all be glad that both drivers are allowed to fight for it. This can only be good for the sport.
     
  5. niky

    niky Moderator

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    Why would the safety car be a hindrance? The safety car meant that Rosberg didn't have to make up nine seconds or more to catch up to Lewis before making an overtaking attempt.

    The safety car put Rosberg right up Hamilton's tail pipe, on fresh soft tires, for over a dozen laps. It's insanity to say that didn't work in Rosberg's favor.

    I've watched Ted's Notebook. Nowhere does he say that the safety car helped Lewis. He said, as I've said, that it's the medium tires being better than people thought, that helped Lewis stay ahead. Without the safety car, Nico would have had to catch up to Hamilton, and his tires would likely have gone off even sooner.

    And he praised Hamilton, too. With no mention of "dirty" driving.




    Those regulations apply to straights, not the corner. The one I cited applies to corners. Rosberg's defense last time against Alonso was on the straight, and would have fallen afoul of the current rules, which were amended after that incident.

    Hamilton? Jealous? Knowing he's the faster driver? Why? I'll agree Hamilton is an incredibly arrogant sod. A moody one, too. But jealous of Nico? No.

    Also, how far back you can hang on the warm-up lap is already controlled by the FIA because of similar antics.


    Have you actually watched any of the McLaren races over the past few years when Button and Hamilton were on the same piece of track? Hamilton knows perfectly well how to overtake and how to be overtaken when battling a team-mate. Whatever his other faults, his abilities in wheel-to-wheel racing are pretty good.

    And so are Nico's.


    Anything to win. Just like Senna.

    You want to win? You have to be hungry. Multiple world champions like Schumacher or that other Michael, Jordan, were incredibly driven, committed and yes, ruthless, when competing. This doesn't affect how nice they are off the field of battle (and indeed, I've heard from some of Schumacher's most bitter rivals that he's actually a very nice chap off track), but if you don't come to the fight with that single-mindedness, then that affects your chances at winning.

    You don't have to drive dirty. But you have to be committed to winning, no matter what.
     
  6. BHRxRacer

    BHRxRacer (Banned)

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    Because Hamilton would've been on worn mediums and Rosberg on relatively fresh softs.

    PS I want them to race too, but I don't want Hamilton to keep being Hamilton/Maldonado/Kobayashi.

    Ugh. He had a better chance without the safety car. That's how I felt during the race, and that's what I saw on the TV coverage. The safety car didn't make it impossible, but it offered Nico only a few laps to make the move. The tyre difference apparently wasn't that big, which helped Hamilton even further.


    Not a dozen laps. 4-5 laps and the softs were too worn to complete with Hamilton's mediums.

    I'm pretty sure he said the safety car didn't help Nico. He didn't say it helped Lewis, maybe because he doesn't wanna get a lot of **** from the fans, but he did say it didn't help Nico.

    Of course. So did 90% of the world, for different reasons. That's why I'm bothered. It makes me sick when credit goes the wrong way. It's been too consistent with Hamilton and Vettel over the years, hence my "hate".

    The one I quoted was for the straights, yes. The one you quoted was general racing. Charlie, maker of the rules or not, pretty much combined the two and told the drivers 2 years ago to ALWAYS leave a car's width if they get close enough.


    lol. Knowing he's the faster driver? Is that you saying that or him?

    I watch nearly all driver interviews every grand prix and since Hamilton moved to Mercedes he took many shots at Nico. Not the typical "I hate that guy" shots, but the jealous ones. Last year he made fun of Nico in some interview saying he always takes a notepad in driver briefings and writes down notes. This season he keeps saying he wants to "study" more to be faster. He IS jealous and shaken of how fast Rosberg can be.

    ...? In the last 2 corners Hamilton was almost no where Nico. That was blatantly deliberate.


    Button's as nice as Rosberg.

    That's not sportsman like. "anything to win" is only acceptable in business, arguably too. Not in sports.


    .........?

    See you just repeated what I said. You don't have to be dirty to be committed or hungry. Lewis is being dirty. The hold up at the start, pushing Nico off multiple times and that radio message is all you need to see it.

    edit

    In one of the interviews he even said if we keep doing this every race it won't end well, or something like that.
     
  7. VolkswagenX

    VolkswagenX

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    You're being ridiculous. You really believe Lewis had an advantage after the safety car? You said yourself that the difference in tyres where smaller than expected but you somehow believe Nico would be able to use magic and close the gap and then overtake Lewis as if he was driving a Marussia? You talk about Lewis having worn tyres but the tyres on Nico's car are made of magic rubber that allowed him to do qualifying laps to the end of the race?

    I don't even like Lewis Hamilton but I know he is not an idiot and he can definitely drive or he would be gone from F1. Nico lost in Bahrein and you making up excuses won't change that.
     
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  8. Peasantslayer

    Peasantslayer

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    Don't kid yourself, at around lap 35 the Mercedes drivers were told that they could push to the end because they'd saved enough fuel, basically we had 10 quali laps at the end and in qualifying the medium was about 2.4 seconds slower than the soft, perhaps the difference wasn't that big but to suggest that it wasn't significant is stupid besides everyone knows Ted is a Rosberg fanboy.

    After Malaysian practice he pointed out that Lewis was struggling with fuel compared to Rosberg because he was being told to drive slower, what he failed to mention was that Nico was told to lift and coast which suggests Lewis had the fuel saving techniques nailed and it was just a case of slowing down.

    So Lewis did a good job especially when you consider his car was struggling with understeer all weekend according to his race engineer over the team radio. ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  9. King1982

    King1982 (Banned)

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    He actually just doesn't like Hamilton, he will do anything to talk him down or not mention him when he wins a race. Its known, a few other people also confronted him directly in the SkySports comment section. It's a known known.

    That prick also made it look as if Paddy ordered some cryptic team orders during the Bahrain race.
     
  10. Samus

    Samus

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    I found that funny. Roughly how I remember it..

    "Martin, that was a team order. I'm sure of it"

    "Are you sure Ted? I think they're going to let them race"

    "Nah, team order, the crafty buggers"

    "I think they're going to race Ted, Paddy was just telling them to bring them home"

    "Well, we'll see Martin"

    *Mercedes continue to race, Ted goes silent*
     
  11. King1982

    King1982 (Banned)

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    Exactly, i've noticed over the years he does not like to give Lewis credit. It's just getting obvious now.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2014
  12. BHRxRacer

    BHRxRacer (Banned)

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    I said: He had a better chance without the safety car.
    [​IMG]

    Nico didn't even have to overtake Hamilton on-track. He had used less fuel than anyone else in the race, and given his history he had been saving his tyres well. All he had to do was stay close to Lewis until the next phase. By the last 5-10(depends on when they stop) laps, Hamilton would be on worn mediums and Nico would be on nearly fresh softs to catch up and make a move.

    When did I say he doesn't deserve to be in F1? He's fast on a single lap, extremely emotional/inconsistent and plays dirty whenever he feels threatened. That doesn't mean he's slow.


    When Rosberg was on mediums and Hamilton was on softs, the difference was a lot less than 2.4 per lap. Oh and by the way, they had extra fuel after the safety the car. Nico even asked on the radio if there's anything he can do to burn that extra fuel. That increased his tyre wear, and they were shot much sooner than expected. Things would've been more equalized without a safety car.


    God forbid somebody in this world calls out Lewis for what he is.

    Are we talking about the Malaysian practice, race or the Bahrain GP? I'm confused.
     
  13. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne Premium

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    While I'd love to wade in and say that I see little difference between the sum of Roserg's talents and the sum of Hamilton's (and go on to say that we saw proof from equal drivers in equated machines that position is king) but I shan't, I'll just advise that we all move on to the next race thread :)
     
  14. BHRxRacer

    BHRxRacer (Banned)

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    Can't wait.
     
  15. VolkswagenX

    VolkswagenX

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    Lol, Lewis had the race in the bag. You're assuming he had a better chance but I honestly believe Rosberg got lucky with the safety car and being on the better tyre. Mercedes would not put Lewis on a strategy that would leave him defenceless at the end off the race. We will never know what would have happened. Fact is that Lewis beat Nico on the lesser tyre and the only one to blame is Nico. he was not close enough to overtake him during a pit stop and he couldn't do it when he was right behind him.

    I'm not saying you think Lewis should not be in F1, but you sound like Lewis is the worst driver in the field. Again not saying you think that. It's just what I get from your posts about this issue. I'm done here.
     
  16. Ninners

    Ninners

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    I'm surprised Nico didn't try a cut back move on the exit of Turn 3, the outside line was never going to work against a driver like Lewis.
     
  17. Lewis_Hamilton_

    Lewis_Hamilton_

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    BHRxRacer, I'm not going to get involved with the driver slanging match, but I am failing to grasp your logic on how soft tires that are only a couple of laps newer would have been faster and have gone through less wear. Softer rubber just doesn't work like that. If Nico's tires went off before the end of the race despite sitting behind a safety car for numerous laps, then they definitely would have gone off at the required race pace with all of those extra laps.


    Nico's tires would have worn much quicker trying to make up the gap if there was no saftey car. Though Nico pitted later, it wasn't a lot later and not late enough to overcome the softer rubber's quicker wear rate. Even if he did catch up, I feel the result would have been the same regardlessly, the safety car helped Nico no matter the mind gymnastics you want to put into it. I cannot remember any race where a safety car was a benefit to the leader who had previously gapped the field.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  18. niky

    niky Moderator

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    No. The safety car let him preserve tires behind Lewis for several laps instead of burning them at race pace catching up with him. They basically allowed him to take the battle to Lewis on fresh tires without having to play catch-up.

    Because he made a huge number of overtake attempts. They would have been worn after the first few attacks if he'd had to play catch-up

    Watch the video again. He didn't. He said Lewis benefitted from the medium rubber being better than the team thought it would be... and that he, along with the rest of us, thought the safety car would help Nico. That it didn't guarantee victory was due to the tires.

    So when the entire world, including Rosberg, gives credit to Hamilton for a job well done, it makes you sick? Do tell.

    Citation required. I quoted a rule, you quoted a rule. Mine is specifc for corners. Yours isn't. Show me where the FIA decided that yours takes precedence everywhere.

    That's the qualifying record talking. Bahrain is one of the few tracks where Nico is traditionally better than Lewis, which is why it was such a big psychological win for Hamilton, and a big loss for Rosberg, that Lewis won.

    You are absolutely deluded. Absolutely.

    State regulations that say how close he has to be to the race leader on a warm-up lap. Then show that he's broken them.



    Button is nice. But when he's racing Hamilton wheel to wheel, he gives no quarter at all. Some of their tussles in McLaren have been the most entertaining parts of those dreary Red Bull years.



    Read "The Unfair Advantage." And then anything about any championship team or player... ever. You go the extra mile. Like I said, it doesn't necessarily mean driving dirty, but you've got to give more than 100% when going against one of the fastest men on the grid.

    Hamilton is going to be nicer about it than some others, but if you're up against the likes of a Vettel, Alonso or Schumacher, they're not going to give you any quarter. They're going to steal points from you both on the race track and off the racetrack. They're going to complain when you disobey team orders, then turn right around when they're given the same orders and take that place from you. They'll exert all possible political influence (not Vettel, yet, he's not that canny) off the track to assert their number one status.

    Ask Rubens, Felipe, Piquet... Webber... if you're not as hungry as can be, and you're not willing to push back (as Webber did by raising a ruckus about the borrowed wing and "Multi-21") then you haven't got a chance.


    Backing off, that's tactics, but within the rules. Pushing, within the rules. The message? That was funny. And within the rules.

    Again, Lewis is a great fan of Senna and dirty tricks. But unlike some of the other drivers, he's not been one to push dangerously (Schumacher on Barrichelo at the wall of champions, Vettel on Alonso at Monza) And again, he's been punished for his antics enough over the years to know exactly what he can and can't do.

    Rosberg doesn't have to do anything illegal to win, but he's got to learn all of Lewis' tricks and techniques if he's going to stand a chance in hell of beating him this season.

    Which of the two do I hope will win? I don't care. All I care is that Rosberg finally has a team-mate that inspires him to push harder (I thought his performance during the Schumacher years wasn't that great), and Hamilton finally has a team-mate that pushes back and is not being a whiny baby about it (Alonso was arguably as good as Lewis or better, but the mouth on that man during the McLaren years...).
     
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  19. BHRxRacer

    BHRxRacer (Banned)

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    I'll try to shorten this because it really is time to move on to the Chinese GP.

    I mentioned already that Rosberg did complain on the radio in one of the incidents. He even said it again in one of the interviews yesterday. I also mentioned Rosberg isn't a guy that complains often. He's a PR guy, always painting everything with rainbows unless he gets really furious.

    There are 3 moves that, if you claim to be fair, there's something wrong with you. At least the one at lap 17-18.

    For the last time, it was Charlie. I honestly don't remember the GPs it was mentioned at.

    When football players waste time at the end of match while winning, it's also "within the rules". Changing the ball, walking slowly to pick it up, full 6 seconds in the keeper's hands, stalling at the corner, etc. All of those are within the rules, but they're cheap tactics. They're almost universally used now, but doesn't make them any less unprofessional.


    Pretty sure that wasn't at the wall of champions(Canada's last turn).
     
  20. Ninners

    Ninners

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    I think he meant Hungary 2010 where Schumacher nearly put him in the wall.
     
  21. BHRxRacer

    BHRxRacer (Banned)

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    I know. Just correcting it.
     
  22. niky

    niky Moderator

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    My mistake, it probably was Hungary, as Ninners says. It was quite a while back.

    Yes, it is.

    There were moves that were completely on the limit, and the part where he boxed out Nico very aggressively after the initial overtake, yes, was a tad too forceful. But what's the distinction between fair and legal? Like I've said, there's not really such a thing as fair when you're talking about racing.

    But if we're to quote Nico, let's put it here:


    http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/309439/
    http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/27056797

    The media will keep pushing and prodding and trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, but those two are friends and they genuinely enjoy racing each other. There is no doubt Nico was massively disappointed to lose in Bahrain, but he's not going to hold it against Hamilton. He's holding it against himself.

    If they both keep pushing, however, the question is whether the friendship can stand Hamilton's brand of psychological warfare. They're both aware that this could become an issue, and they're trying their best to avoid that.

    -

    Like I've said, what matters in sports is what's legal and what's illegal. Fair play merely means everyone gets the same chances to fully utilize whatever tactics the rules allow. If you have a legal means of disrupting the other driver's flow, you take it. Rosberg is no virgin, in this respect.

    http://grandprix247.com/2012/04/23/furious-alonso-slams-rosbergs-dangerous-blocking-tactics/

    Legal? According to the stewards, yes. Fair? Chopping off another driver like that? Would you classify it as so?

    And that's that. There might have been one questionable move after Lewis overtook, but the long battle at the end was pure racing. And there will hopefully be more of that in China.
     
  23. Spurgy 777

    Spurgy 777

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    @niky do you think then that moves like the ones Hamilton was pulling (running another driver completely out of track when they're alongside just because there's a run off) should be illegal? I mean it has already been done with regards to the straights.
     
  24. BHRxRacer

    BHRxRacer (Banned)

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    @niky

    I talked about Karma and the 2012 incident. The move on Alonso was fair because there wasn't a significant portion of the car alongside Rosberg. The one on Hamilton though, was naughty. Hence, karma. The defensive moves on Vettel on the main straight were also fair despite the crying.

    Long story short, had it been Massa/Maldonado/Kobayashi or someone like them, Hamilton would've taken them out and got a penalty for it. Rosberg was too smart for that, played it safe, and settled for 2nd.
     
  25. niky

    niky Moderator

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    Whether he would have gotten a penalty depends on where on the track it happened, see below:

    It is already sort of illegal to squeeze somebody who's tucked up on the inside of the turn... which is why Maldonado was so adamant that it was Gutierrez that took him out, rather than the other way around.

    But, as we've seen, the stewards take into account the racing line, and Maldonado was well off-of-it, and outbraked himself and ran straight into Esteban. That's even with Maldonado with his car nearly alongside the leading car.

    In the past, when drivers were battling for position, and the driver on the inside had established position, the stewards have handed out penalties to the guy in front for slamming the door. As per the regulations, it's an unusual move, because you've got to cut your line tighter to shut the door (this is with the understanding that you are now off the line for the apex, because the other guy is on it).

    In the Hamilton-Rosberg case, Rosberg is up by Hamilton's sidepod, but Hamilton has the racing line, which, if you're cornering 100%, leads out to the kerbs on the exit from the apex. Hamilton could alter his line to leave room, but he's not obliged to (under the rule), he's just not allowed to change the line to edge Rosberg further out.

    Should it be illegal? Personally, I would think so. But that opens up the possibility of drivers setting up easy overtakes by going the long, slow way around, and using the rules to force the other driver to compromise his exit and slow down. Rosberg on the outside was never going to get as good an exit as Hamilton on the inside, and to force Hamilton to perform that extra slowing down on exit gives an unfair advantage to the attacker. You have to allow the guy in front to dictate the line through the corner, otherwise you could simply order every driver with a car trying to overtake him to pull over and let them past.
     
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  26. Spurgy 777

    Spurgy 777

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    It doesn't open up that possibility at all. Under these rules, this would be the situation;

    The driver infront has two lines to pick, the inside line or the outside line of the corner, the outside line has to stay to the outside of the racing line where possible, and the inside line has to stay to the inside of the racing line where possible (EDIT - When both cars are alongside). Then obviously the driver behind takes the opposite line to the guy infront.

    That would basically mean the driver on the inside line has to leave a cars width on the entry and exit of the corner when both cars are alongside, and the driver on the outside line has to leave a cars width at the apex of the corner when both cars are alongside. I see no way that can be abused, especially in such a way that it makes the longer and slower outside line somehow faster, you simply lose too much time mid corner unless you have more grip or are just a better driver.

    Also the current rules are very similar, except it seems you don't have to leave a cars width on exit if there is a run off.

    EDIT - Only situation I didn't think of is the cutback, in this situation, the roles are simply reversed on exit because the lines each driver is taking has been reversed
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
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  27. BHRxRacer

    BHRxRacer (Banned)

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    What rule is that? I don't recall seeing a rule that says having a run off area means you can push each other out.
     
  28. niky

    niky Moderator

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    20.3 covers the approach to the corner. Nothing about whether you can hold the racing line or not on the exit.

    20.4 covers the straights and braking areas (corner entry).

    20.5 is applicable, but you would have to prove that following the racing line on corner exit is deliberate or abnormal. This is the loophole that allows Hamilton to box out on corner exits.
     
  29. Spurgy 777

    Spurgy 777

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    ^^This, and the reason the loophole only applies when there is a run off is because taking the run off is the best option for the driver on the outside, which means there is no contact and no penalty. If there is no run off then the best option is to risk being hit by the other driver.
     
  30. BHRxRacer

    BHRxRacer (Banned)

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    It's not the best option, because if they deliberately go off track it'll be considered gaining an advantage and he'll hand the place back.

    I don't see the run off area being a factor at all to all of this. The edge of the track is the white lines.