2015 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix

[iMikeTheKing]

And what about the neutral fans who just enjoy motorsports who have to endure all this twaddle?

Ignore I guess. I'm tired of seeing the same arguments about Hamilton every race.

Did you do the census yourself?

I should have done a poll so that I can get inaccurate data because not every GTP member will answer. I made a generalization based off posts and likes. I did not preach it as fact.

Labeling someone a hater is the biggest cop-out to avoid having to give a legitimate response to valid criticism.

Criticism is fine. I said that because every race thread is filled with someone saying something negative about Hamilton no matter what he does and a bunch of people responding to it as if it will change the original poster's opinion.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Probably because Formula 1 is so much more partisan. Look at the way Valentino Rossi is received by the fans compared to Lewis Hamilton. Rossi is almost universally popular, to the point where the cheers of the Spanish crowd drown out the bikes when Rossi passes a Spanish rider (though they did cheer just as loudly when Pedrosa struck back). Hamilton, on the other hand, doesn't have that popularity - he's completely polarising.

As someone who vehemently does not like Hamilton, I can tell you that it has nothing to do with his talent. He's probably one of the most naturally-talented drivers the sport has ever seen. I don't like him because of his attitude. I don't like him because at every race, there is an almost exclusive focus on Hamilton. Look at Ted Kravitz on the grid yesterday, talking about Rosberg's headache - he immediately made the connection to Hamilton's start and insinuated that Rosberg was seriously compromised by it. And to be blunt, I think that the attitude of some of his fans stinks: they can't accept any criticism of him, and attack anyone who does criticise him, but they freely dish out their own criticism of other drivers. Unlike MotoGP, it's an attitude of partisanship that has created the situation. If you listen to the MotoGP commentary, they don't take sides - but they do in Formula 1. Sky's introduction video is openly prejudicial, casting Rosberg as the villain of the grid.

I've always maintained that there is so much more to a driver than their talent. We want to see them as superhuman, but we also want to see them as approachable. My personal yardstick is "could I have a beer with this driver and not talk about motorsport?" (and Jenson Button tops that list). We idolise the drivers, and a big part of that is shaped by what we value - those traits or qualities that we consider to be worthy of respect or admiration. When Valentino Rossi finishes second, he congratulates the winner. When Lewis Hamilton finishes second, he sulks. Disappointment is understandable and maybe even to be expected, but when Daniel Riccardo finishes third and smiles so broadly that you can see all eighty-four of his teeth, sulking makes you look like a sore loser. It's like James Magnussen (no relation to Kevin) scowling on the podium after finishing second at the London Olympics while the guy in third goes ballistic.

EDIT: Thanks for the merge. I was going to copy-paste into the original post, but forgot.

As you vehemently don't like Lewis, maybe you can't objectively judge him. Hard to see what is wrong with his attitude, great one to have IMO. Also others talking about him makes you not like him, does that go for every other top driver in a top car over the years or just Lewis?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

As you vehemently don't like Lewis, maybe you can't objectively judge him. Hard to see what is wrong with his attitude, great one to have IMO. Also others talking about him makes you not like him, does that go for every other top driver in a top car over the years or just Lewis?

And therein lies the problem with Hamilton's fans: I'm entitled to dislike him, just as you're entitled to like him. And I'm entitled to dislike him for reasons that are entirely my own, just as you are entitled to dislike him for reasons that are your own. But I have seen plenty of Hamilton fans launch ad hominem attacks on people who do not like Hamilton.

Look at the arguments that I have made against Hamilton: that the media representation is prejuducial, that commentary is misleading, that he doesn't respect other drivers by giving them racing room, and that his attitude of the ends justifying the means is not a virtue. I have never gone after the person arguing in favour of Hamilton, and I have never attempted to convert someone to my cause. I'm sure there are people who don't like Hamilton who do resort to ad hominem attacks - we just saw one banned - but I don't. I'm still subject to them, though, and that is pretty influential in establishing an opinion of a driver.

Like I said, it's a partisan approach that you don't get in MotoGP. I don't hold Hamilton's fans responsible for that. It comes down to the media and the way the sport is presented. It's heavily biased in favour of British drivers - during the Suzuka weekend, Ted Kravitz and David Croft analysed the potential driver moves for 2016. After concluding that Button would leave McLaren and Stevens lose his Manor Marussia seat, Kravitz lamented that there was "only one Brit", as if Formula 1 owed British drivers more seats. And I think that speaks volumes about the media attitude in the sport. I get that Sky's first audience is British, but any terrestrial broadcaster that gets the world feed gets the Sky production as part of the deal, even if they don't use it. And Sky should be aware of that - it might be playing to British sensibilities, but it alienates everyone else. That's where the partisanship starts.

 

[Cobra_GT500]

So Alonso has come out and said he will be staying with Mclaren till the end of his contract than retiring from f1. He also said radio chats should be made private. I dont think we were meant to here any of what he said. But I giess he is right the media always try to twist stories and change how they really are.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

But I giess he is right the media always try to twist stories and change how they really are.

Well, with Button keeping quiet on his 2016 plans, they clearly had to go fishing around for something in Camp McLaren. Alonso did make it pretty easy for thrm, though.

 

[mustafur]

Name a driver that gives racing room on the grid today and im sure there has been a moment where they haven't.

If you don't have to, why would you.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I should have done a poll so that I can get inaccurate data because not every GTP member will answer. I made a generalization based off posts and likes. I did not preach it as fact.

Sure you did and I quote "you guys outnumber the haters like 4:1" that a ratio (but I'm sure you knew that) and ratios usually mean you have enough accurate data to claim fact directly or indirect depending on how you say it. Also the GTP poll bashing that people use as legit info, isn't something you'll see found here or held in the same regard with this crowd. Now I don't say that as fact just my personal observation. But the sarcasm in your post did give me a chuckle so thank you for that.

 

[Pupik]

One perk to the American F1 broadcasting style is that there's far less of a "favorite" played up by our media, because there's no Home Team and nobody to raise Old Glory. True, there's bound to be comparisons to NASCAR and IndyCar, but from the driver's standpoint, we're rather ambivalent. Unless they've suddenly played up Alexander Rossi's WDC Haas' Constructors hopes for 2016.

Was disaapointed he didn't go for the answer of "if you no longer go for a gap....."

I've always found that to be a cop-out answer for hitting another opponent when you've got a snowball's chance in hell of successfully overtaking.

 

[mustafur]

Atleast it isn't ITV circa 2008.

Im glad we all survived that Hamilton fap fest.

 

[GTPorsche]

Unless Manor retain him for next season, I don't think Rossi has much of a chance of staying on the grid after this season.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

One perk to the American F1 broadcasting style is that there's far less of a "favorite" played up by our media, because there's no Home Team and nobody to raise Old Glory. True, there's bound to be comparisons to NASCAR and IndyCar, but from the driver's standpoint, we're rather ambivalent. Unless they've suddenly played up Alexander Rossi's WDC Haas' Constructors hopes for 2016.

The NBC Sports broadcast hasn't been that shy to mention how Rossi is performing in relation to Stevens. In fact, during the Suzuka race, they got giddy that Stevens may had sped on pit lane because it would've meant Rossi would finish ahead of him. I also remember how the old Speed channel yapped about Scott Speed a few years ago.

Name a driver that gives racing room on the grid today and im sure there has been a moment where they haven't.

If you don't have to, why would you.

Contact. To me, that's a bigger deterrent than actions by the stewards. It's a calculated risk and sometimes, it doesn't work out.

 

[ukfan758]

Why can't all racing be like that?

1. Formula One having a perfectionist mindset where causing a collision with another car (I'm not saying colliding with other cars is good) might as well be equal to committing murder. Accidents are usually not as big of a deal in other racing series. This leads to the second reason.

2. Big business, where money is all that matters; not the fans and action on track. When stuff happens, they do not like it because it means a loss of money. That impression is made on the public and the media unlike any other racing series. Therefore, whenever there is an accident or a pass like in this grand prix, people and the media go bat:censored:.

 

[[Nor]MclarenF1]

1. Formula One having a perfectionist mindset where causing a collision with another car (I'm not saying colliding with other cars is good) might as well be equal to committing murder. Accidents are usually not as big of a deal in other racing series. This leads to the second reason.

Don't forget that car to car contact in F1 carries far greater consequences than in many other forms of racing. A shunt in a touring car or GT car will give you some crumpled bodywork, without hampering performance. In F1 you'll risk tearing off your entire suspension (goes for more or less all open wheel racing). Not to mention that on todays F1 cars, just loosing a front wing end plate is enough to upset the balance of the entire car.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Don't forget that car to car contact in F1 carries far greater consequences than in many other forms of racing. A shunt in a touring car or GT car will give you some crumpled bodywork, without hampering performance. In F1 you'll risk tearing off your entire suspension (goes for more or less all open wheel racing). Not to mention that on todays F1 cars, just loosing a front wing end plate is enough to upset the balance of the entire car.

Not if you race a Lotus most days it seems their quite tough...probably to endure the Pastor survival test. And before this GP I'd have said the Williams suspension is bullet proof, hell I think i still can since Felipe only had a tire cut and wing damage. I'd say cars are strong structure wise now days then many years prior.

However, I get your point, there are many carbon bits that even pit road pylons are able to destroy that will easily make the car perform entirely the opposite way as intended.

 

[niky]

1. Formula One having a perfectionist mindset where causing a collision with another car (I'm not saying colliding with other cars is good) might as well be equal to committing murder. Accidents are usually not as big of a deal in other racing series. This leads to the second reason.

2. Big business, where money is all that matters; not the fans and action on track. When stuff happens, they do not like it because it means a loss of money. That impression is made on the public and the media unlike any other racing series. Therefore, whenever there is an accident or a pass like in this grand prix, people and the media go bat:censored:.

I actually believe that causing a collision through clumsiness or arrogance should be punished. No problem there. (Remember, here I was comparing it to MotoGP, where every crash carries with it the possibility of death). The question is the level of driving and maturity that allows real wheel to wheel action.

Such as occurred between Hamilton and Button on many occasions at McLaren. That was a good pairing. There was not much whining between the drivers as to "whodunit", just lots of close wheel-to-wheel racing.

Maybe the cynical would claim this is because Button was never a threat to Hamilton, so no clash of egos, but the fact that Button was always close in points and actually outscored Hamilton in one season (2011, I think) belies that.

Sure, we expect the really hungry ones, like Lewis, Fernando and Sebastian, to act like prima donnas from time to time, but why can't we have more of that Jenson-Lewis vibe, or the Rossi-Pedrossa vibe, where guys have a go at each other just for fun?

Big business benefits from exposure. Having a friendly but heated rivalry like that is a good way to gain exposure with the media and the fans... good exposure.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I actually believe that causing a collision through clumsiness or arrogance should be punished. No problem there. (Remember, here I was comparing it to MotoGP, where every crash carries with it the possibility of death). The question is the level of driving and maturity that allows real wheel to wheel action.

Such as occurred between Hamilton and Button on many occasions at McLaren. That was a good pairing. There was not much whining between the drivers as to "whodunit", just lots of close wheel-to-wheel racing.

Maybe the cynical would claim this is because Button was never a threat to Hamilton, so no clash of egos, but the fact that Button was always close in points and actually outscored Hamilton in one season (2011, I think) belies that.

Sure, we expect the really hungry ones, like Lewis, Fernando and Sebastian, to act like prima donnas from time to time, but why can't we have more of that Jenson-Lewis vibe, or the Rossi-Pedrossa vibe, where guys have a go at each other just for fun?

Big business benefits from exposure. Having a friendly but heated rivalry like that is a good way to gain exposure with the media and the fans... good exposure.

We all know why Hamilton was outscored though...there is no place for a broken heart on the track, ask Felipe Massa

 

[prisonermonkeys]

We all know why Hamilton was outscored though...there is no place for a broken heart on the track, ask Felipe Massa

The problems off-track came later. The real problem was in Shanghai when he beat Sebastian Vettel - Hamilton was clearly expecting to fight Vettel for the rest of the season. But come the next round, Vettel reasserted himself and while Hamilton doubled down, he never held a candle to Vettel. He started over-driving the car and making more mistakes. Then the off-track stuff started getting in the way and it all started to snowball. He was clearly getting frustrated by the way he was digging deep and throwing everything that he had at Vettel and he still couldn't get close to the Red Bull.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The problems off-track came later. The real problem was in Shanghai when he beat Sebastian Vettel - Hamilton was clearly expecting to fight Vettel for the rest of the season. But come the next round, Vettel reasserted himself and while Hamilton doubled down, he never held a candle to Vettel. He started over-driving the car and making more mistakes. Then the off-track stuff started getting in the way and it all started to snowball. He was clearly getting frustrated by the way he was digging deep and throwing everything that he had at Vettel and he still couldn't get close to the Red Bull.

Oh I agree with this as well, and was going to edit how Vettel and RBR being an unbeatable force seemed to also play into him going out there and driving like a tool most of the season. Rather than just settle for what was more than anything his teams area to handle and try to gain, but didn't. Overall, the combined factors showed a very lackluster and silly driver who was considered (still is) one of the best and a WDC holder.

Even as a Lewis fan, I wouldn't call that digging deep...well at least not in the way he does now, as last year and 2013 showed. That many times was just down right impatience and irritation for the hand dealt, and probably the first blocks that made him start thinking about a world beyond McLaren...2012 just sealed the deal when a team with the best car tossed it away.

 

[[Nor]MclarenF1]

Not if you race a Lotus most days it seems their quite tough...probably to endure the Pastor survival test. And before this GP I'd have said the Williams suspension is bullet proof, hell I think i still can since Felipe only had a tire cut and wing damage. I'd say cars are strong structure wise now days then many years prior.

However, I get your point, there are many carbon bits that even pit road pylons are able to destroy that will easily make the car perform entirely the opposite way as intended.

Yes, this years F1 cars look to be tougher than previous years. Probably due to further advancements in carbon fibre structural strength. Also, I wonder if the test rigs at the Lotus factory have an extra setting marked "Maldonado".

 

[Eva]

Well, let's look at it this way...when Williams had Maldonado for three years, it gave them ample time to learn how to make a super strong chassis for Massa to test on the first 100 yards at Suzuka.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Well, let's look at it this way...when Williams had Maldonado for three years, it gave them ample time to learn how to make a super strong chassis for Massa to test on the first 100 yards at Suzuka.

I'm sure after last year they also learned tons in roll hope rigidity with Massa.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

And therein lies the problem with Hamilton's fans: I'm entitled to dislike him, just as you're entitled to like him. And I'm entitled to dislike him for reasons that are entirely my own, just as you are entitled to dislike him for reasons that are your own. But I have seen plenty of Hamilton fans launch ad hominem attacks on people who do not like Hamilton.

Look at the arguments that I have made against Hamilton: that the media representation is prejuducial, that commentary is misleading, that he doesn't respect other drivers by giving them racing room, and that his attitude of the ends justifying the means is not a virtue. I have never gone after the person arguing in favour of Hamilton, and I have never attempted to convert someone to my cause. I'm sure there are people who don't like Hamilton who do resort to ad hominem attacks - we just saw one banned - but I don't. I'm still subject to them, though, and that is pretty influential in establishing an opinion of a driver.

Like I said, it's a partisan approach that you don't get in MotoGP. I don't hold Hamilton's fans responsible for that. It comes down to the media and the way the sport is presented. It's heavily biased in favour of British drivers - during the Suzuka weekend, Ted Kravitz and David Croft analysed the potential driver moves for 2016. After concluding that Button would leave McLaren and Stevens lose his Manor Marussia seat, Kravitz lamented that there was "only one Brit", as if Formula 1 owed British drivers more seats. And I think that speaks volumes about the media attitude in the sport. I get that Sky's first audience is British, but any terrestrial broadcaster that gets the world feed gets the Sky production as part of the deal, even if they don't use it. And Sky should be aware of that - it might be playing to British sensibilities, but it alienates everyone else. That's where the partisanship starts.

Sure you are entitled to dislike him, find your reasons quite peculiar to dislike someone though whether it be Lewis or anyone else for that matter.

Anyway I find following article quite interesting to read given Lewis Hamilton is meant to have an almost exclusive focus on him according to you: Mercedes and Ecclestone in bizarre row over Lewis Hamilton TV coverage.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Anyway I find this quite interesting to read the following article given Lewis Hamilton is meant to have an almost exclusive focus on him according to you: Mercedes and Ecclestone in bizarre row over Lewis Hamilton TV coverage.

Brundle did also suggest during the race that Mercedes' absence from the broadcast was due to refusing Red Bull an engine.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That only applies to the broadcast of the race, which Sky has no control over. I'm talking about all medua coverage.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

That only applies to the broadcast of the race, which Sky has no control over. I'm talking about all medua coverage.

That is main part of the event and they do provide commentary.

As Lewis has 12 Poles and 8 wins out of 14 races, I imagine it is hard to not mention him in other media coverage let alone a UK broadcaster like Sky. If it was another sport I think the same would be true. For example I don't dislike Usain Bolt and as you already know Lewis Hamilton due to media having a focus on them on winning their respective events.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

As Lewis has 12 Poles and 8 wins out of 14 races, I imagine it is hard to not mention him in other media coverage let alone a UK broadcaster like Sky.

As true as that is, there comes a point where you do it too much. Look at Singapore, where Sky pretty much gave Hamilton ownership of the Senna narrative. Senna plays a fundamental role in every young driver's career, but Hamilton was made out to be the heir apparent to the Senna legacy. Where were the platitudes when Vettel and Schumacher surpassed Senna's record?

 

[RACECAR]

Pretty sure Senna was mentioned during Vettel's Domination at Red Bull (Not nearly as Schumacher for obvious reasons, but I'm pretty sure his last win before 2015 was mention as bringing him closer to Senna).

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Pretty sure Senna was mentioned during Vettel's Domination at Red Bull (Not nearly as Schumacher for obvious reasons, but I'm pretty sure his last win before 2015 was mention as bringing him closer to Senna).

Wow, one mention "bringing him closer". Compare that to the wall-to-wall coverage of "Hamilton can match Senna!".

 

[Saidur_Ali]

As true as that is, there comes a point where you do it too much. Look at Singapore, where Sky pretty much gave Hamilton ownership of the Senna narrative. Senna plays a fundamental role in every young driver's career, but Hamilton was made out to be the heir apparent to the Senna legacy. Where were the platitudes when Vettel and Schumacher surpassed Senna's record?

Wow, one mention "bringing him closer". Compare that to the wall-to-wall coverage of "Hamilton can match Senna!".

He had chance of matching number of starts and victories as his idol, that opportunity doesn't come around often for any driver.

 

[RACECAR]

Wow, one mention "bringing him closer". Compare that to the wall-to-wall coverage of "Hamilton can match Senna!".

Except I didn't say "One Mention", I said it was mentioned leading up to and right after his last win in 2013 about getting closer to equal Senna so no need to shove that in my mouth.

I get it, you're sick of Hamilton Mania. You don't need to attack me, I didn't ask for this.