Sports Cars 2017 General WEC/ELMS/AsLMS Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by IforceV8, Dec 30, 2015.

  1. 05XR8

    05XR8

    Messages:
    31,578
    Location:
    Australia
    Any news about the February race?
    I wonder if the Highlands circuit in New Zealand is open.
     
  2. Eva

    Eva Premium

    Messages:
    7,429
    Location:
    United States
    It's likely to be in Bahrain.
     
  3. 05XR8

    05XR8

    Messages:
    31,578
    Location:
    Australia
    Ah, ok. Just looked it up on YouTube. I didn't know they raced there.
     
  4. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

    Messages:
    10,527
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It's not logical. DPi is stupid. It's a perfect study of how to take a balanced category, P2, and unbalance it totally requiring Bop after Bop followed by more Bop. All that for cars with a manufacturer name in it? They don't look anything like any cars those manufacturers make. It is a joke.
     
  5. Eva

    Eva Premium

    Messages:
    7,429
    Location:
    United States
    Compared to the current LMPOreca we see in WEC, which is better because?
     
  6. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

    Messages:
    10,527
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    In what way? It had an advantage at Le Mans because of its low downforce package. It is well balanced with the high downforce package.
     
  7. Eva

    Eva Premium

    Messages:
    7,429
    Location:
    United States
    It's almost nothing but Oreca, which isn't healthy.
     
    catamount39 likes this.
  8. catamount39

    catamount39

    Messages:
    9,554
    Location:
    United States
    One chassis manufacturer dominates the bloody class, it's ridiculous.
     
  9. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

    Messages:
    10,527
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Yes it is and that is for one race. A fix is available. How one sided was a certain IMSA series Cadillac for far more than one race?
     
  10. catamount39

    catamount39

    Messages:
    9,554
    Location:
    United States
    Not anymore with Nissan getting their act together with the new ECU. It's been one sided because only one team has had their **** together up to this point. Mazda and Nissan joined last minute, Cadillac were planning on this for a year at the least. That's not comparable to literally one chassis being the entire class except for one car in the field.
     
    LMSCorvetteGT2 likes this.
  11. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

    Messages:
    10,527
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    How many times did one car win. How many times was it Bopped until it finally allowed someone else to win?
     
    trustjab likes this.
  12. catamount39

    catamount39

    Messages:
    9,554
    Location:
    United States
    Ignoring the fact, that the other two examples of same said car have been behind the Mazdas and Nissans AND LMP2's on multiple occasions, and that the cars/class are all literally in their maiden season, all done at the last minute except the Cadillac. It wasn't BoP that got Nissan the win, their car has had pace this season (see poles they've gotten before), they've been unreliable. It's taken until Road America for Nissan to win because they have been developing the car still. Mazda doesn't even count because Speed Source couldn't develop the thing at all, and the chassis manufacturer (Riley) threw all the burden at Multimatic after doing squat with the car/chassis. Next year, the class will be an actual battle between developed cars.

    DPi is a good format, and Joest leaving and not rejoining LMP1 to enter DPi with Mazda is a sign of that within itself.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  13. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

    Messages:
    10,527
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    So much for that one chassis series then isn't it. :lol:

    I think what IMSA wanted, was something like the Corvette Daytona Prototype. You know something that is recognisable as the brand it's supposed to be. Something none of the Dpi's do.

    Maybe it will be good in the end but bop, bop, bop, bop bop, says it isn't now.
     
  14. DesertPenguin09

    DesertPenguin09 (Banned)

    Messages:
    7,398
    Location:
    United States
    We get it, you don't like DPi.

    New topic...
     
    fortbo and catamount39 like this.
  15. Suzumiya

    Suzumiya

    Messages:
    4,419
    Location:
    United States
    LMP1 was so perfect because no bop, it's why only one team is doing it because it's so holy LOL
     
    Silver Arrows, DK, RESHIRAM5 and 3 others like this.
  16. catamount39

    catamount39

    Messages:
    9,554
    Location:
    United States
    Exactly. BoP is a necessary evil because otherwise crap like LMP1-H happens. You get 3-4 good years out of the class then it implodes like this.

    IMSA made the better class, plain and bloody simple. Because guess what...LMP1-H costs more than the WEC is currently bloody worth.
     
    DK, fortbo and tbwhhs like this.
  17. RACECAR

    RACECAR Premium

    Messages:
    31,955
    Location:
    United States
    What you and many others seem to miss is that Cadillac was the Most serious about DPI as it was the most further along with the development of is car as was one team, hell it was literally only one team winning with Cadillac. All the while, you had Mazda who didn't have as many miles and Nissan, who literally only contributed the engine and funds while ESM did the bodywork and its only testing WAS the Roar before the 24. Kinda easy to dominate when you're the one Manufacterer that has the most miles and development while the others are saddled with far least test miles (Or in the case of the "Nissan" DPi, so behind because of entering at the last minute). Its worth noting even with BOP, the team was still winning. The only thing that actually happened was every one else finally got gud and caught up (most notably, a Bright Yellow WEC-spec Oreca).
     
  18. catamount39

    catamount39

    Messages:
    9,554
    Location:
    United States
    BoP so manufacturers don't end up spending over $500 million, sorry everything can't be open reg and gouging money.

    How in blue blazes does the chassis situation in IMSA line up with the WEC LMP2 grid? There is a mix of 4 manufacturers among 9 cars (7 for a brief time while Mazda regroups). The Dallara only has an "advantage" because of WTR itself and Cadillac's R&D into the car, and Cadillac being ahead of the game. It's not the WEC where everybody bought literally one car, except for the one Ligier team.

    DPi is a hell of a lot more competitive for less money than LMP1 now. It's the logical way forward for prototype's globally at the moment.
     
  19. Eva

    Eva Premium

    Messages:
    7,429
    Location:
    United States
    Remember, DPi isn't a European creation. If it doesn't feature radical spending and death in 5 years, it isn't worth the hype. /s
     
  20. RACECAR

    RACECAR Premium

    Messages:
    31,955
    Location:
    United States
    Oh, right. We must always rely on the FIA and the ACO together to know what to do about Sports car racing, nothing ever goes wrong there.
     
    LMSCorvetteGT2 and Eva like this.
  21. Michelin Man

    Michelin Man

    Messages:
    2,377
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    To be honest, I think @catamount39 coined it well in that BoP "is the necessary evil" that would be needed to keep something like Hybrid LMP1 on it's toes, as otherwise it will implode after a number of years with spending getting out of control like it has.

    DPi is realistically the best model for Prototypes going forward in my opinion. it's a very promising, very competitive and potentially very versatile set of regs produced on a far smaller budget than LMP1-H. You only have to look at the interest it's brought from Joest, Acura and potentially Ford to see that it works.

    And as I mentioned in the IMSA thread I think, it's to be somewhat expected that you get one team ahead of the rest in a set of regulations first year of use. After all Cadillac got a big head start on the rest (because they developed their car incredibly well), but ultimately the competition is closing in, and the BoP has been played very well this season to be honest. And at the end of the day, it's a format that could prove to be a great basis for a new form of top LMP completion to potentially replace LMP1 really.

    As for LMP2, well I love it as a format, I really do and I've taken more interest in it over the years as it's improved, and it's still largely competitive but that's only really down to the Oreca domination, which is not a healthy way to go as @Eva rightly pointed out, is having a sole chassis dominate the class.
     
    Eva likes this.
  22. RACECAR

    RACECAR Premium

    Messages:
    31,955
    Location:
    United States
    And its made worse by the fact that unlike DPi, You have one chassis dominating and there's nothing you can do for the whole season no matter how much better the teams get. That and basically, the Oreca "07" is essentially the 05 from years before so just like the Cadillac DPi, everyone is playing catch up.
     
    Michelin Man likes this.
  23. TexasTyme214

    TexasTyme214

    Messages:
    1,124
    If the Acura proves to be competitive, which is likely, I can see most future DPi's being Oreca based similar to LMP2 is now. That wouldn't make DPi healthier over time.
     
  24. RACECAR

    RACECAR Premium

    Messages:
    31,955
    Location:
    United States
    If was overwhelmingly Dominant, maybe. Competitive? I don't see that happening and its abit too early considering There is also now the Joest-Run Mazda squad (which could make this Penske vs Joest II) and there is no telling what ESM can do now that they've found footing with the Nissan (and Derani being there) along with the WTR Cadillac still putting up a fight.
     
  25. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

    Messages:
    10,527
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Depends on what is required. With the old LMP2 cars built light and ballasted up to 900K it would be easy to create a Pro class at 600-650K. If the same is possible with the new cars, I don't know if that's the case, the same would be possible. That would be a hell of a lot cheaper and faster. Then if you actually need manufacturer names then allow manufacturer engines - with the same CC and cylinder count as the existing engine and your done.
     
  26. RESHIRAM5

    RESHIRAM5

    Messages:
    9,972
    Location:
    Australia
    The only problem I see with Bop is when a team decides to manipulate this to give them an unfair advantage (like Ford are accused of doing at Le Mans last year). However it is is risk that IMO is better than what's happening in the main LMP class.

    In LMP, there was only 3 years with at least 3 competitive manufacturers (1999, 2014, 2015 and 2016), while 2014 - 2016 showed promise, we're quickly scaling back again while DPi is growing.

    Thing is DPi use various bodywork as well as engines, it basically is just LMP2 yes but with the concepts of DP thrown in, and I believe from what's happening the formula is working, more manufacturers are getting in the action instead of leaving.
     
  27. Furi

    Furi Premium

    Messages:
    44,036
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    @Tired Tyres @Eva @RESHIRAM5 @RACECAR @catamount39

    Firstly, with regards to LMP2, let us remember that ORECA have had quite the headstart with the class. The 07 is based on the monocoque of the 05. The 05 monocoque had already had usage as being adapted into a "bigger class" car with the Rebellion R-One. Technically this ORECA design and it's base underpinnings are 3 or 4 years old and people know it is a reliable package. People will always go for the best or latest package wherever possible. When LMP2 started moving into a closed-top formula at the end of the last generation of cars, the Ligier was the go-to car at first, because everyone wanted the latest tech. ORECA have always however tended to have the widest spread of customer cars across ELMS as well, remember how many damn 03's used to crop up at Le Mans? Back to Ligier, and they've basically got a monotony on the LMP3 class with the JS P3.

    LMP2 is actually extremely comparable to GTE right now. Why so many ORECA's, so little of anything else? Apart from above reasons, remember this is the first season of a new rules formula. Parts and spares are limited. Their will not be spare tubs and chassis lying around garages that can be used and bought and purchased. Availability is therefore limited. ORECA come out and make a guarantee to my team that they can give me a car and support it, i'll go for it. I'll also as a team boss be much happier when I hear that a number of those cars are already being built, it instills me confidence in the package the fact that commercially they are already this much a success. For comparison - how have Riley done in prototype efforts over the recent times?

    So what's the GTE connection? Well look at how thin GTE-AM has been recently. A few "old-gen" cars and this year a few newer cars. Still not many around. But then look at next year and Porsche's statement this week that all six customer RSR's are sold for next year, most likely for WEC & ELMS. As a manufacturer they have developed the package and come to a point where they are happy with it, and now are selling it on. Look at Ferrari - after years of development how many 360GTC/Modena NGT/GT2's did we ever see? And yet when the F430 proved competitive more of them trickled down the rankings, to the point were the 458 and 488 are now trusted machines as it's proven they can build a package and support it, and this can be run by privateers - see Porsche again next year. GTE became mainly Ferrari's because the superior overall support package as well as machinery was offered, Porsche's didn't actually become that common after the 996 as Ferrari slowly overtook them. Which brings me back to ORECA and P2 - trusted package, available and supported well. Now whilst there is the obvious difference of LMP2 being privateer only to a GTE / LMP1 manufacturer field, the general point still stands. Also, why has LMP1 died during the Hybrid era? Well how many wealthy teams with resources to run an LMP1 also have specialist engineers and teams to run and get knowledge of Hybrid systems? None.

    When the new P2 regs were announced I firstly thought "why, if it isn't broke don't fix it", and "so this will become P1 in future". However, there's a critical reason why DPi will never ever become LMP1 or a top class internationally, and that's because there is no such thing as a unique car. P2 has those 4 sanctioned manufacturers - ORECA, Ligier, Riley (don't remember the 4th one?) and DPi uses only an evolution of those cars. These "rebadged" DPi's may have a Cadillac engine or Mazda aero, but underneath they are still basically those 4 same cars. Toyota are not going to come to LM with a car that's really an ORECA with some fancy aero and their own V8. Dare I say it, DPi is heavily lined with the american bravado of sticking a badge on it and claiming it is different. DPi is still not far off from that. It works in America brilliantly, but as an international formula it has no chance in it's current guise unless chassis regulations are opened up as there is no appeal.
     
    Tired Tyres likes this.
  28. RESHIRAM5

    RESHIRAM5

    Messages:
    9,972
    Location:
    Australia
    Interesting read however, you're comparing DPi with LMP2 and GTE-Am. The difficult part of that is that LMP2 and GTE-Am have very few manufacturer involvement if not at all. DPi works a bit differently as DPi teams recieve support from the manufacturers their running, that's why DPi do so well in comparison to other LMP2 cars in the pact.

    Also as we look at DPi in its first season, all the manufacturers, Nissan, Cadillac and Mazda are using different chassis as their base. They could've all just hopped on the ORECA bandwagon because it is the best currently but they aren't all doing it, I think this is enough to see that engine and even the edited bodywork actually causes a stir of differences in the vehicles enough to make DPi stand as more than just LMP2 with a few tweaks (even though my last post, I just said DPi is LMP2 with DP ideas thrown in).
     
    fortbo likes this.
  29. IforceV8

    IforceV8

    Messages:
    6,112
    Even though the Oreca 07 is the favorite choice of the WEC in the ELMS the split between the Oreca, Dallara, and Ligier is a even. Also with the standard aero kit those 3 chassis are equal. The biggest difference was at Le Mans were the Oreca was clearly dominate, and should have been since they wrote the rules for the new spec P2.

    The DPi has been given freedom to develop the brakes, dampers, suspension, gearbox, electronics etc from the standard P2 chassis but they have to comparable to the P2 spec part it replaces. If they didnt do that the DPi/P2 BOP would spin out of control and every race would look like that display we saw at the Rolex 24 this year.

    9/16 COTA round on FS2 from 1:30-6pm CT, the 1st 90 minutes have no TV listing.:rolleyes:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
  30. RACECAR

    RACECAR Premium

    Messages:
    31,955
    Location:
    United States
    Typical. Can't wait for Fox to stop being the exclusive home for big time Sports car racing.
     
    IforceV8 and catamount39 like this.