2019 Porsche 911 (992)

Discussion in 'Auto News' started by ProjectWHaT, Nov 23, 2017.

  1. Frank McGank

    Frank McGank

    Messages:
    355
    The turbo, the GT3RS, and the GT2RS are all automatic-only. In 2010, every single 911 either had a manual option or was manual only. The proof is in the pudding. The fact the automatic was the one they decided to go with for the limited-production GT2RS speaks volumes, doesn’t it?
    I can’t find any direct sales numbers, but your own quote sort of proves my quote. I was being hyperbolic with my “90%”, but 85% isn’t far off.
     
  2. ROAD_DOGG33J

    ROAD_DOGG33J Premium

    Messages:
    10,978
    Location:
    United States
    Throttle House recently had a go in the 718 GT4 Spyder and Cayman. They said Porsche didn't really want to re-engineer the manual transmission, so it has long gears. If you want to wind it out on the roads, all you get is 1st gear.

    These cars are so powerful and fast now that it doesn't really even make sense to enjoy them on the streets. I would say the best candidates for that would be the Boxster/Cayman base/S models and the base 911.

    I'm guessing a fair number of the 911s are mainly driven to and from the office, where the owner doesn't want a manual either.
     
  3. McLaren

    McLaren Premium

    Messages:
    40,399
    Location:
    United States
    And the 911 R & recent Speedster were manual-only. And that's still 3 models out of a rather large range.
    You missed the part where Porsche re-introduced manuals back into the line-up for the next generation as well as the last gen. GT3 & making the Speedster manual-only once again, which implies Porsche recognizing there's a viable market for it.
    A car bred for track racing & needs to stay competitive with what other manufacturers are doing for faster lap times throwing in a faster transmission isn't a surprise.
    My quote actually points the other way.
     
    Heldenzeit likes this.
  4. Danoff

    Danoff Premium

    Messages:
    29,165
    Location:
    United States
    The old ones are still around, with all of the other old technology too. That's what classic cars are for.
     
    Jump_Ace likes this.
  5. Jump_Ace

    Jump_Ace Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    8,466
    Location:
    United States
    718s are available in MT. I'm hoping to get a 2020 model in a couple years. I wish I fit in a car like an MX-5, those'd be so fun to drive around in with an MT.


    Jerome
     
    Eunos_Cosmo likes this.
  6. Eunos_Cosmo

    Eunos_Cosmo Premium

    Messages:
    8,210
    Location:
    United States
    You and me both. I'm hoping they'll fall in value more quickly than the 6-cylinder cars because of the "inferior" turbo 4. I have a flat 6 midship Porsche and I want dat torque.
     
    Jump_Ace likes this.
  7. Tornado

    Tornado

    Messages:
    38,780
    Beyond the fact that Porsche keeps adding manuals to nearly every sporty car in their range, every few years Porsche releases a trim that's specifically marketed as being the purist manual option. Some of them they even certified a new engine for that model specifically. They charge extra money for it, and people line up to pay it. And once Porsche runs out of them, people line up to pay even more for one.



    I think Porsche will hold onto it for much longer than Chevrolet did when they decided that dentists didn't care enough either way.
     
    Heldenzeit likes this.
  8. Frank McGank

    Frank McGank

    Messages:
    355
    In 2009, no 911 was automatic only. In 2020, ⅓ of the 911 lineup is. No matter how you cut it, they’re moving away from manuals. Them offering limited production ‘purist’ models with manuals is proof that they no longer view the manual 911s as the normal ones but rather as specialist ones. That really only supports my argument, rather than yours.

    They reintroduced the manual as an option GT3, and confirmed the GT3RS will not have a manual anymore. In 2010, both the GT3 and GT3RS were exclusively offered in manual. You again are more proving my point than your own.

    “A car bred for the track needs to keep up with its competitors” yup, and that’s why they’re moving away from manuals and towards automatic-only. Thanks for agreeing.

    “85% of the Porsche lineup is the PDK” yeah, it certainly is. The ‘trend downwards’ almost certainly refers to them bringing the manual back to the standard GT3, which I believe they had just done around that time. Either way, I simply can’t find any information on the take rates of manual vs pdk, so both of our comments on that are essentially hear-say.
    Of the 6 cars in Porsche’s lineup, only two (the 718 and 911) can be had with a manual. And multiple models of the 911 are now exclusively pdk. No matter how you cut it, they’re moving away from manuals. They’ll hold out longer than Corvette, clearly. But the writing is on the wall. All sports cars are moving towards automatics, with many sporting brands no longer offering a manual on any model.
     
  9. Eunos_Cosmo

    Eunos_Cosmo Premium

    Messages:
    8,210
    Location:
    United States
    As long as the MX-5 exists, so too will the manual gearbox.
     
    Venom800tt and Heldenzeit like this.
  10. McLaren

    McLaren Premium

    Messages:
    40,399
    Location:
    United States
    I see we're picking this year specifically b/c it's the last year that supports that claim, yet ignores that actual generation did have automatic only cars starting the following year; the Turbo S & Speedster. The Turbo S has remained automatic ever since iirc. The Speedster went back to being a manual-only car.
    Of which would bigger if Porsche hadn't actually put manuals back in this year.
    No, I think this quite clearly cuts the other way.
    https://www.carthrottle.com/post/th...-is-at-last-here-but-not-for-the-whole-range/

    Read above.

    I think you're conveniently leaving out 2 other models that prove my point. They did put the manual back in GT3 & left it out of the RS. But, not only did they put the manual back into the GT3, they added a brand-new GT3 Touring that was manual-only. Or that when the 991 Speedster was brought out, it too, went back to manual-only unlike the 997 Speedster that was PDK-only.

    Wasn't your argument; "Porsche owners buying cars only for looks & that's why they have autos". The RS cars have autos b/c of an entirely different reason.

    No, see I have actual statements & articles that support the notion the the factory has recognized the importance of manuals.

    You rely on 10-year old models based on the market and technology of their time, as well as making statements like "guaranteeing" a claim, but further admitting you can't actually "guarantee" it. Your comment is the only hear-say.
    Your knife is dull & your argument contrasts the factory's.
    https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a...manual-transmissions-for-as-long-as-possible/

    https://www.carthrottle.com/post/th...-is-at-last-here-but-not-for-the-whole-range/
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
    Nexus, Heldenzeit and Tornado like this.
  11. Tornado

    Tornado

    Messages:
    38,780
    Of course. The fact that Porsche sees enough of a market to create separate trims in direct response to people clamoring for manual transmissions and have gone on record as saying they will fight to keep them as long as possible is proof that Porsche is disinterested in offering manual transmissions. It was obvious all along.

    7 cars.

    Three. The three sporty ones, at that, which is what I said in the first place.

    2 of the other cars are SUVs. Oh no. How else will I be able I simulate the 4 cylinder M-Class experience if Porsche won't sell me one.
    One of them is an electric car. Tragic. To have all of the torque I could ever need instantaneously, but to be forced to shift anyway, is truly the dream future of electric cars.
    The last one is a 4400 pound 5 meter car. A travesty. I always wanted to drive a W140 used as a taxi.




    Enthusiasts truly wept when Porsche stopped offering a manual (or never bothered it at all) in their cars in new market segments that competitors haven't bothered offering stickshifts for in decades; if they even did at all beyond livery-spec turbodiesels.
     
  12. Frank McGank

    Frank McGank

    Messages:
    355
    can’t argue with the numbers, mate. More automatic-exclusive cars today than ten years ago. Got an answer for that that doesn’t prove my point?

    Oh you really got me, I misremembered how many models Porsche has in production today, guess my whole argument is null.

    No, TWO. The 911 and the Boxter/Cayman family. Counting the 718s as two separate cars is padding the numbers.

    Could get the Cayenne with a manual in 2007. Now you can’t. Thanks for proving my point that they are moving away from manuals.

    Enthusiasts on forums*. The take rates tell the tales. 20-somethings driving a clapped out Civic bemoaning the loss of manual sports cars are not the people slapping down 6 figures for a new Porsche. The vast majority of Porsche buyers are middle aged men who want something flash to show their wealth, not an enthusiast cars. Most of the remainder are collectors who want the fastest model available so they can store it away in the hopes it’s worth 5x as much in a few decades. Neither party are particularly concerned with driving experience. That’s why the take rate on manual 911s is so low; because very few buyers want them. Porsche continues to offer them FOR NOW because there’s still a market for them, but there’s a continuing trend of fewer and fewer people wanting them. Which is why they’re offering it on fewer and fewer cars. Saying “see see! They put a manual in the Speedster, therefore you’re wrong” doesn’t prove anything. The Speedster ALWAYS had a manual, because it is a topless variant of the GT3. When the GT3 went auto-only, so did the Speedster. When the GT3 brought back the manual option, so did the Speedster. The fact the GT3 has an automatic as an option in the first place should speak volumes. In short, zoom out. Fewer Porsche models in 2020 have a manual option than Porsches in 2015, 2010, 2000, 1980, and so on. If you can’t see the trend, I don’t know what to tell you.

    Long story short: “Porsche still offers manuals, therefore they’re not abandoning manuals.” look further back than the last 6 months and you’ll notice a trend.
    Ferrari had manuals in 2005, and so did Lamborghini. Where are they now?
    Exactly, I’m picking that year because they had more manuals then! Then they started offering fewer manuals and instead replacing them with automatics! Holy crap, you just made my argument for me!
    yeah, my original point was about the average Porsche buyer. Then the discussion shifted towards why Porsche makes corporate decisions. I fail to see how that is me changing my argument? Most Porsche buyers buy the automatic because they don’t care about driving engagement, most of the remaining Porsche buyers want the fastest option available, and then finally there’s the small amount of buyers who specifically want a manual. What’s difficult to understand about that? The numbers support that, by your own admission.

    Ferrari and Aston Martin also both said they had zero interest in making SUVs, and now both have SUVs in development. What’s your point? Look at the sales numbers, look at the options. Just saying “I can buy a manual Porsche today” is not an argument.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
  13. Tornado

    Tornado

    Messages:
    38,780
    And they also sell more models than they did in 2010. Unless you think it's proof of something that an electric car doesn't have a manual transmission.

    Nah, three. Repeating yourself with all caps like a petulant kid doesn't make something more true. Porsche have seven models. Three of them are available with manual transmissions. The Cayman and Boxster are different cars with different trim lines and options available to them. Porsche deliberately changes performance aspects about them to decrease the market overlap between them, in case it wasn't obvious enough. They always have been. You don't get to pretend things don't exist just because you're not very good at arguing things things on the internet.

    You could also get a Panamera with one. It doesn't mean that they are moving away from manuals. It means they stopped bothering to offer manuals in cars that no one really cared about them in to begin with; like 4400 pound luxury cars and full sized SUVs.

    I'm amused that you're so bad at this that you keep assigning arguments to people that they never made.

    Prove it.


    Prove it.


    Prove it. McLaren provided actual tangible numbers about take rates. You pulled something out of your ass and keep insisting that it's true.


    It proves that Porsche is committed to offering a manual transmission option on specialist performance models in addition to the lower tier models that already have them, which is in line with the statements from people at Porsche who say they will continue to offer a manual transmission as long as possible.


    It speaks that they misunderstood how much the market cared about about manual transmission availability instead of raw performance numbers. It sounds like it's the same mistake Toyota made when they had BMW make them the Supra that they are rumored to also be correcting.


    :lol:

    Here's the very first words of my very first post:
    Sporty cars in their range:
    Cayman.
    911.
    Boxster.

    Cars available with manuals in their range, and presumably the very ones that they will try to offer with manuals until they no longer can as they've stated they will:
    Cayman.
    911.
    Boxster.



    That was the extent that I talked about trends, about how many models in Porsche's range still have manuals, about how dedicated they are to keeping them around. I brought it up in response to your comparison of the Porsche range to the C8. Instead of fabricating imaginary arguments that you can combat with imaginary statistics and hot takes that you copy-pasted out of Jalopnik comment sections, perhaps try reading the posts you're responding to.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
    Silver Arrows likes this.
  14. McLaren

    McLaren Premium

    Messages:
    40,399
    Location:
    United States
    What trend? You claim the factory is moving away from manuals, I provided statements from 2 Porsche development personnel & a third party statement from Porsche NA the factory is keeping manuals & looking to see about putting them in other models.
    Their market base didn't warrant manuals anymore. But, we're talking about Porsche whose market base does.
    Again conveniently ignoring that Porsche brought out 2 brand-new manual only cars after that time & made the decision make a former model manual-only again.

    Your argument just flat out sucks since it's clearly trying to be based on math. Porsche takes the manual out of the GT3/RS & 2RS: 0 available manuals - 3 auto-only. Porsche puts the manual back in the GT3: 1 available manual - 2 auto only. Porsche brings out the 911 R & GT3 Touring as manual only: 3 available manuals - 2 auto only.
    Word games don't work on this forum. You made a statement backed up by a "guarantee" you can't prove & then shifted your meaning towards other product decisions that don't support that statement.

    "Porsche puts in automatics b/c Porsche owners just want to look flashy. The RS line is proof". Wrong & it's been documented above.
    That's not an argument yet you bring in irrelevant manufacturers moving to SUVs as some kind of support for your own.

    Porsche put the manual back.
    Porsche put out a GT3 trim (Touring) that was manual only.

    Your volume meter is busted.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
  15. Frank McGank

    Frank McGank

    Messages:
    355
    I’ll make it nice and easy for you two. Are more or less Porsche models automatic-exclusive today as compared to historically?
     
  16. McLaren

    McLaren Premium

    Messages:
    40,399
    Location:
    United States
    Yes, more Porsches are automatic-exclusive today compared to Porsche historically; the first real automatic Porsches only came in 1990, so there's about 60 years where there was no way a Porsche could be auto-only.

    Unfortunately, what you've done is create a fallacy which illustrates that you've been wrong in your original comparisons/points made; "there's more auto-only Porsches today compared to the last 90 years of Porsche history, therefore Porsche is moving away from manuals". Except this argument fails to acknowledge the manual-transmission is still there, available alongside the auto in most of the line-up just as it has failed repeatedly to acknowledge where Porsche removed the manual from some models, it created new models that are manual-only.

    So, in addition to failing to counter any points, failing to back up your claims/"guarantee", & attempting to adjust your original statement (the RS line moving to autos for track use is not the same as stating Porsche moved to autos for drivers to look flashy), you've attempted to move the goal post by running down the entire history of Porsche now.

    The only thing nice and easy you've made is demonstrating the desired end of this discussion by this stone-wall attempt of a question & nothing more.
     
  17. Frank McGank

    Frank McGank

    Messages:
    355
    Compared to 10 years ago, are there more or less automatic-exclusive Porsche models? Automatic/double clutch semiautos were normal and accepted in 2010.
     
  18. Crash

    Crash Premium

    Messages:
    6,041
    Location:
    United States
    This argument misrepresents what's going on. The "automatic-only" 911s are cars intended to go as fast as possible around a track. Under that philosophy, it makes sense to not offer a manual, the PDK is going to shift faster than any human can. It's the specialty 911s with a very specific purpose that doesn't offer a manual. Once you move away from those specialty 911s, the "regular" 911s can be had with a manual. This indicates that in general, Porsche is still committed to having manual cars outside of some specific models that were designed for very specific purposes.

    Why is a manual transmission the sole method by which driving enjoyment can be derived or not? Manual transmission can be a component to driving enjoyment, sure, but it isn't the only or the whole story; automatic transmission cars can be fun and engaging as well. You make it sound like individuals who own "automatic" 911s or Boxsters can't get any driving engagement or enjoyment at all. Why does that absolutely have to be the case?
     
  19. Frank McGank

    Frank McGank

    Messages:
    355
    my point was, for a multitude of reasons, Porsche is moving away from selling manuals and focusing on automatics more and more.
    So tell me, are Porsche selling more or less automatic-exclusive models today as compared to just 10 years ago? How about 20? It’s a really simple question that you and everyone else keep dodging for some unfathomable reason.
     
  20. Crash

    Crash Premium

    Messages:
    6,041
    Location:
    United States
    Your point relied on the blind use of absolute numbers that completely ignore the context, reasons and rationale for why it is the way that it is. That's the entire point of this whole discussion. Yes, numbers-wise, Porsche sells more automatic only models today as compared to a decade ago. So what? Using only the numbers without context or reasoning is as intellectually lazy as arguing a Volvo semi truck is more of a sporting vehicle than a Miata because the semi truck has more horsepower than the Miata when looking at just pure numbers.

    You argued that Porsche buyers are the "sort who want to be seen in a fancy car, not because they enjoy driving" because manuals are the only way by which driving enjoyment can be had AND the entire Porsche brand is "moving away" from manuals. The Porsches whose primary purpose is driving enjoyment (most 911s, Boxster/Cayman) can still be had with manuals today. You may have had a point if you specifically limited it to the SUV and Panamera buyers, but you extrapolated what could have been reasonably argued specifically for the SUV and Panamera cases to other Porsche models where the supporting points to your overall argument just don't apply.

    Now since it's so important to not be dodging simple questions, please answer my question to you:

     
    YoshiMaster2 likes this.
  21. Frank McGank

    Frank McGank

    Messages:
    355
    I’m not going to answer your question because it’s an irrelevant red herring to try and paint me as a person in a bad light rather than actually refute my argument. A common tactic for those with no actual point.

    So you agree, Porsche are selling more automatics than ever and fewer manuals than ever, at least relative to overall sales? And that more and more Porsche models are abandoning manuals and going to automatics?
     
  22. Silver Arrows

    Silver Arrows

    Messages:
    3,655
    Location:
    Canada
    It's a valid question to ask considering the fervor you've thrown into this topic.

    You have been contradicted by two people who know what they are talking about, multiple times now. You've doubled down on your arguments to little effect. I get the feeling you don't have any actual point.
     
  23. Frank McGank

    Frank McGank

    Messages:
    355
    I have a good point and made it clear multiple times. “Porsche are moving away from manuals and focusing on automatics”. My best evidence is the answer to this question: are Porsche selling more or less automatic-exclusive models now as compared to a few short years ago?

    It’s telling that not a single person wants to answer it, you included. Just keep deflecting to personal attacks.
     
  24. ProjectWHaT

    ProjectWHaT

    Messages:
    14,065
    Location:
    Antarctica
  25. kikie

    kikie Premium

    Messages:
    23,167
    So this one is the GT3 R Race Car?

    [​IMG]

    And the photos above posted by @ProjectWHaT is the GT3 RS road car?
     
  26. ProjectWHaT

    ProjectWHaT

    Messages:
    14,065
    Location:
    Antarctica
    Supposedly yes. The GT3 R is the GT3 class race car. Although some people believe that the race car pictured is actually the cup car and not the GT3 car as it lacks a lot of aero
     
  27. AudiMan2011

    AudiMan2011 Contributing Writer

    Messages:
    12,358
    Location:
    Scotland
    The aero is a lot closer to a cup car than it is to a GT3. Especially since GT3 tends to adopt a much wider stance than even the widebody road cars.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  28. ProjectWHaT

    ProjectWHaT

    Messages:
    14,065
    Location:
    Antarctica
    Heldenzeit, FT-1 and VXR like this.
  29. kikie

    kikie Premium

    Messages:
    23,167
    Choose the Touring Pack option and you have a perfect Porsche. That rear wing is looking very ridiculous.
     
  30. ProjectWHaT

    ProjectWHaT

    Messages:
    14,065
    Location:
    Antarctica
    Ha, yeah I just realized how tacked on the wing looks. It's actually quite odd locking compared to how the current GT3 looks with its more integrated looking wing.

    [​IMG]

    But I do love a swan neck wing
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020