26 cars lined up for 2010 & bile from Bernie

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Sureboss, Mar 25, 2009.

  1. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

    Messages:
    33,155
    Location:
    Peru
    Costs, maybe. If it were any other year, there wouldn't be a problem. But the economic situation means they may have a few troubles.
     
  2. Hun200kmh

    Hun200kmh

    Messages:
    6,460
    Location:
    Portugal
    If the FIA keep Ferrari, Red Bull and STR in the list they'll publish tomorrow (and I think they'll be kept there), plus the three teams already accepted, plus Williams and Force India, they'll only add between 2 and 5 more teams.

    However, I think it's very clear now that the FIA F1 championship won't happen unless some kind of agreement is reached. Sponsors will flee, tracks - even if under contract -will refuse to pay the sums needed, or won't simply have them (because in most cases the funds come from the governments).

    Unlike the FOTA teams, now their own masters, Williams and Force India are in a very difficult position. they are now 100% dependant on what happens elsewhere, in negotiations where they have no seat.
     
  3. Soundtrack

    Soundtrack

    Messages:
    1,537
    I beleive FIA will never cede this “opportunity” to Ferrari, so indeed its very likely those “under contract” teams will be on tomorrow's published list. If things stay as they are, the next round migth be played in front of a court. Again!:grumpy:
     
  4. Ardius

    Ardius

    Messages:
    10,373
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I think Lola's main concern was the lack of clarity on what rules they are running under and the fact that they had developed a car already and were very disappointed about not being confirmed.
    Its getting to the point in the year where starting a new team for 2010 is going to be a massive job if said team wants to be competitive, teams joining in 2010 should already be designing their cars and getting the team together but at the moment its not very clear what the rules are going to be in the first place.
    Also, I think they were concerned the rules they agreed to (budget caps) may not actually be the final rules thanks to the current situation.

    I suspect this may stop the Prodrive entry too.
     
  5. Hun200kmh

    Hun200kmh

    Messages:
    6,460
    Location:
    Portugal

    I think so too.


    Remember, Max, not long ago, was saying that the FOTA (all of them, including Ferrari) could launch a breakaway series or go race diesels, he had no problem with that. He even suggested they should talk to Bernie for organizing it for them.

    Then ...

    Ferrari, Red Bull and STR couldn't leave. All others had two options, either they filed unconditional entries or they would be out.

    FOTA asked for a deadline extension. He replied: "no, there are teams waiting and they must know if they made it or not, so the deadline stays. Decide if you're in or out, your choice."


    Now, after all, the "new" candidates will really have to wait, for an indefinite amount of time, while the FIA tries to see if they can sue the FOTA teams.

    They're not important to Max anymore. And they never were, really, their only use lasted while he thought FOTA Teams would be afraid of not making into the list because of them.
     
  6. Soundtrack

    Soundtrack

    Messages:
    1,537
    I disagree, with the unexpected departure of Honda from F1 and the long rumored possible withdrawal of other struggling teams, it was FIA responsibility to modify the serie in order to make it sustainable in this particular economical climate.

    Diesel or not, as long as the teams comply to their existing engagement, I can’t see how Max Mosley could forbid any car maker to enter any other serie in the world. (even their own :rolleyes:)

    But, and if they are indeed contractually bound in F1 till 2012, I believe that breaking away, with the aggravating circumstance of taking other participants with them, could cost Ferrari way more money than what they are able to spend.
     
  7. Hun200kmh

    Hun200kmh

    Messages:
    6,460
    Location:
    Portugal
    You miss my point. I'm not talking about Ferrari, I'm talking about the teams with conditional entries, accepted as such by the FIA (McLaren, Toyota, Renault, Sauber-BMW and BrawnGP).

    Mosley had a very clear message for them in these last few days. "Drop your conditions until Friday 13th, or you are out of the 2010 championship".

    They asked for a deadline extension. Mosley said "No, we can negotiate after you drop your conditions."

    They asked "If you're willing to negotiate, why don't you allow a deadline extension?"

    Mosley said: "Because there are newly formed teams that lodged unconditional entries and I must decide quickly if they're in or out, or else they won't have the time needed to build and test their cars. So, you must drop your conditions NOW, or else I will have to exclude you from 2010 F1"


    And now ... these poor teams that HAD TO KNOW NOW if they are to build and test cars ... suddenly don't matter anymore. Why? Because these five rebel teams didn't drop their conditions and the FIA didn't publish the final list like Max said would be done to protect the new teams.

    It's easy to conclude: Max used the existence of new teams to force the above mentioned 5 teams to a unconditional entry. He did it by lying to everyone (new and old teams), pretending to be the "protector of the litle ones" when the only thing he wanted was an unconditional surrender from "the big ones".

    You know, even I thought he was going to win, I predicted a defection from McLaren, BMW and Brawn (especially Brawn), under the menace of getting kicked out of F1 without hope of returning.

    (Max even suggested that theones "left out" could eventually then buy one of the new teams to get back in)

    But they didn't defect, and that was surprising for me. Surprisingly good, in my view.



    EDIT1:

    And now this: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76332

    "They will be there (Melbourne 2010) for sure" ? The FOTA teams? So, will the negotiations last until the end of this year? Until March 2010?

    So long, concern for new applicants. No words about them now.


    EDIT2:

    Well, it seems some of them are interested in the FOTA series ...

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76339
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2009
  8. Soundtrack

    Soundtrack

    Messages:
    1,537
    So maybe Max was warning the remaining teams that - despite leading the FOTA/Rebellion - Ferrari had it’s entry in the 2010 championship anyway.

    Can you imagine what would happened if by legal decision (constrain if you like) Ferrari puts 2 cars at the opening FIA GP next year with the possible miss of lets say the probable 2009’s constructor and driver champion?:scared:
     
  9. SUPER NUMBBER

    SUPER NUMBBER

    Messages:
    1,230
    Spot on, H200k. Mosley knows his game is up, and his deadlines are just an empty threat, as well as all those F3 teams' entries. That's his style: dirty tactics.

    Autoblog on the FIA lawsuit:

    "Max Mosley has been saying for months that F1 can do without the Ferrari and its rebel cohorts, and that the teams would be left off the 2010 championship entry list if they didn't come into line. Apparently, even though the sport can survive without them, and even though there are plenty of other teams applying to get into F1, the FIA would rather not explore that option. Hence the 2010 entry list has been "put on hold while the FIA asserts its legal rights."

    Call us crazy, but it looks like the FIA knows who puts the gold in the coffers.[...]"


    And now the moneyline, courtesy of SadoMaxochist Mosley himself:

    You lost Max.
     
  10. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

    Messages:
    33,155
    Location:
    Peru
    So, what can the FIA do about this?

    I know the terms "Max Mosley" and "FIA" have become interchangeable, but I'm talking about everyone inthe FIA who isn't Max Mosley. He's up for re-relection in October, but could the rest of the organisation do something like call a vote of no confidence and basically fire him?
     
  11. SUPER NUMBBER

    SUPER NUMBBER

    Messages:
    1,230
    That is the call of F1-Live.com:

    Seeing as they didn't have the cojones to pull the plug when they had the chance 2 years ago, I kinda don't care much for the FIA as a whole, but if they did this, I'd celebrate.
     
  12. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

    Messages:
    33,155
    Location:
    Peru
    Mosley's sexcapades brought the office of the President of the FIA into disrepute, but it didn't really affect his ability to do his job. This latest incident shows a Ceausescu-like loss of grip on reality. He has stated that the crisis means he is more likely to stand for re-relection in Ocotber, seemingly oblivious to the fact that he is the crisis. The more support FOTA gets - especially from prospective teams - the more likely it is that someone in the FIA is going to start wondering just how right Mosley is for the job. I refuse to believe that such a large group of people can demostrate the same calibre of idiocy as he. Surely someone like Nick Craw or Michel Boeri would be better-suited to the job; I've heard good things about them. After all, it was Boeri was was expected to replace Jean-Marie Balestre.
     
  13. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

    Messages:
    33,155
    Location:
    Peru
    Three teams are in contention for the final place:
    No idea what happened to Prodrive. Apparently they failed to make the new shortlist.

    As for BMW - and to clear up any confusion over their presence - if they win the slot back, it will be so they can sell the team. We won't be seeing BMW on the grid in 2010.
     
  14. yeti

    yeti

    Messages:
    3,165
    I suspect that BMW will retain it's place - the real question is of course - which of the two teams will replace Renault!!!!!

    C.
     
  15. Only_in_f1

    Only_in_f1

    Messages:
    1,748
    DYR covered that yesterday in his epic post :sly: :D
     
  16. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

    Messages:
    33,155
    Location:
    Peru
    The only people we know of for certain are Peter Sauber himself and a consortium of Indian investors. Now that this list has been revealed and Prodrive are not on it, I can see them doing what I predcted last night and joining forces with Peter Sauber with Epsilon getting the other berth.
     
  17. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

    Messages:
    10,328
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2009
  18. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

    Messages:
    33,155
    Location:
    Peru
    Lotus and QADBAK have thrown my predictions out! I'll have to do it again. I also made a few adjustments. Time for more epicality:

    Mercedes Brawn Grand Prix
    #1 – Jenson Button
    #2 – Rubens Barrichello

    Monza 2009 only delayed the inevitable: Rubens Barrichello was unable to challenge Jenson Button after the Briton dominated in Singapore and clinched the title with a third place in Japan. Both were immediately re-signed as Mercedes bought into the team with the intention of making Brawn their new works outfit. Several new sponsors were signed, including Emirates Air and internet giant Google.

    Livery: Brawn retain their white, black and yellow strip for 2010, though the presence of Mercedes means the white has become a burnished aluminium silver. Emirates logos adorn the sidepods and engine cowling, while Google appears on the wings and nosecone. Following the precedent established by Honda, large numbers in yellow and black appear on the rear wings to make it even easier to identify which driver is in which car.

    Red Bull – Renault
    #3 – Sebastian Vettel
    #4 – Mark Webber

    After the Italian Grand Prix, Red Bull’s title hopes quickly lost steam. But their successes have brought with them a renewed budget, and the aerodynamic upgrade introduced in Japan is believed to form the basis of their 2010 package. Although their hopes of a World Championship have to be put off for another year, Sebastian Vettel steals victory at the first Abu Dhabi Grand Prix. They elect to continue with Renault engines after rivals Brawn become the Mercedes works outfit.

    Livery: Red Bull hire a team of young designers to create their 2010 racing strip. What they produce is something that would not have been out of place fifty years ago, a retro purple and silver livery based on the 1969 Ford GT40 from Le Mans.

    Scuderia Ferrari Santander
    #5 – Kimi Raikkonen
    #6 – Felipe Massa

    Ferrari retain their 2009 driver line-up despite the persistent rumours of Fernando Alonso defecting to the team. Although as confident as ever, the team admit they are a little uncertain without the use of the KERS system. The blanket ban on tobacco sponsorship has hurt their pockets, but has also signalled a new direction for the team.

    Livery: Ferrari return to their original formula for rosso corsa, despite the fact that red does not photograph well. Their car is dominated by a large Santander logo on the engine cowling and sidepods that has to be seen square-on in order to appear properly.

    McLaren Racing Cars
    #7 – Lewis Hamilton
    #8 – Nico Rosberg

    The Italian Grand Prix was a turning point for many teams, including McLaren. Lewis Hamilton’s last-lap accident was the first in a string of retirements, with the Briton recording only one finish in the last four races. Heikki Kovalainen rose to the challenge, securing fourth place in the constructors’ championship, but was unable to retain his McLaren drive. After Brawn becomes the Mercedes works team, McLaren distance themselves from the manufacturer and re-style themselves in their original mould.

    Livery: With the departure of Mercedes, McLaren run their original yellow-orange strip. Vodafone stays on as a major sponsor, though McLaren’s untried in-house engine means they decide to discontinue title sponsorship. As Ferrari take Santander from them, McLaren take Ethiad, with a view to starting a rivalry with Brawn.

    Williams Zero – Mercedes
    #09 – Vitantonio Liuzzi
    #10 – Nico Hulkenberg

    After losing Nico Rosberg, Williams sign on Tonio Liuzzi, who impresses all with four straight podiums in the last four races of 2009 and is the most critical person in the championship battle. Joining him is GP2 champion Nico Hulkenberg. Meanwhile, the void left by RBS is filled by Coca-Cola, and Williams endorse Coke Zero as their new title sponsor. But the bastards are everywhere – they even slip a zero into Liuzzi’s racing number. Williams leave their Toyota contract a year early and pick up Mercedes engines in the deal.

    Livery: Black, with red and white in keeping with the Coke Zero colours. It is a very detailed and artful livery, filled with swirls and loops. Secondary sponsors Phillips and AT&T compliment the arrangement. Half an hour after the Coke Zero deal is announced, the idea that Williams will score ‘Zero’ points in 2010 is the oldest joke on the internet.

    Panasonic Toyota Racing
    #11 – Timo Glock
    #12 – Kamui Kobayashi

    After trying – and failing – to sign Fernando Alonso for 2010, Toyota hastily pick up GP2 driver Kamui Kobayashi. The move is seen as a mistake, especially after Timo Glock finally breaks Toyota’s duck after he wins in Japan. Toyota get a larger-than-expected budget as a result, and team principal John Howett somehow convinces Tokyo that management-by-committee is an outdated idea. It soon becomes apparent that Kobayashi is on a race-by-race contract, with Super Aguri alumni Takuma Sato standing by.

    Livery: Toyota acquire new sponsors in the form of Xanavi and Calsonic after plundering the ranks of SuperGT. Blue and silver are introduced to their red and white in a way that somehow distracts from the lines of the car, making it a bit of a mess.

    Force India Grand Prix Engineering – Mercedes
    #14 – Adrian Sutil
    #15 – Giedo van der Garde

    The surprise team of 2009 return, fresh from their maiden victory in Brazil. After losing stand-in and former test driver Tonio Liuzzi to Williams and the FIA denying Karun Chandhok a superlicence, Vijay Mallya signs GP2 driver Giedo van der Garde. The team comes with backing from the Indian Government, and it is believed they have issued Mallya with an ultimatum: win consistently, or the Indian Grand Prix will never happen.

    Livery: The State Bank of India joins the team, introducing blue into the team’s orange, white and green design. It’s not the prettiest livery ever created, but it’s not the ugliest, either as the blue is fortunately kept to a minimum.

    Toro Rosso Progetto – Ferrari
    #16 – Brendon Hartley
    #17 – Sebastian Buemi

    Scuderia Toro Rosso are renamed ‘Toro Rosso Progetto’ – Toro Rosso Project – which many see as a sign of Red Bull boss Dietrich Mateschitz throwing less and less money after them. It soon comes to light that he is only propping them up long enough to sell them to a buyer, with Eddie Jordan, Aguri Suzuki and Paul Stoddart all putting themselves forward as candidates. FOTA disagree with Stoddart returning to the grid, and the off-season is dominated by Stoddart falling back on his old standby: suing them.

    Livery: The charging red bull is gone, as Red Bull Cola becomes the team’s primary sponsor. More gold is introduced to help differentiate the cars from Red Bull. Like Brawn, Toro Rosso include large numbers on their rear wings; the morbid joke being that this is so the front-runners can tell who they are passing.

    Lukoil Telefonicia Campos – Cosworth
    #18 – Vitaly Petrov
    #19 – Jaime Alguersuari

    After the deal with Pedro de la Rosa falls through, Adrian Campos pinches Jaime Alguersuari from Toro Rosso. With him is Campos other collaborator, Russian Vitaly Petrov. Although running the single most inexperienced team on the grid, the Dallara-built chassis is a surprise for many during shakedown and a definite points contender.

    Livery: Mostly red and yellow, in keeping with the Spanish flag. Large Lukoil logos dominate one side of the car, while Telefonicia appears on the other, despite their colours being blue and gold. It is the first truly asymmetric livery since BAR’s infamous ‘zipper’ design of 1999.

    United States Formula One – Cosworth
    #20 – Pedro de la Rosa
    #21 – Jonathan Summerton

    USF1 snatch de la Rosa away from Campos, with the second place going to twenty-one year old superstar Jonathan Summerton, who beat Canada’s Robert Wickens in an informal race-off for the final position; Wickens is retained as test driver. Despite initial doubts, USF1 are the first of the new teams to debut their new car, and while it is not expected that they will challenge for points, they certainly won’t be perennial tail-enders.

    Livery: Rather than plastering sponsor logos over the Stars and Stripes – a move Ken Anderson and Peter Windsor considered almost sacrilegious – USF1 go in for a red, white and blue design.

    Manor Galactic F1 – Cosworth
    #22 – Pastor Maldonado
    #23 – Adam Carroll

    The quietest of the new teams for 2010, Manor put their heads down and go about their business. Nothing is heard until their car is unveiled, and it is instantly noted that they have signed two untested rookies. But their affiliation with Virgin and Richard Branson has created a relationship with Ross Brawn’s team, and it is believed Maldonado and Carroll come personally recommended by him. Their relationship also suggests that they may become Mercedes customers once the Cosworth contract expires.

    Livery: With Virgin Galactic becoming title sponsor, the Manor cars are painted to resemble the VSS Enterprise, the first of the commercial spacecraft. The cars are white with a silver star array across the front wing and nose, large Virgin Galactic logos on the engine cowling and sidepods, and an ‘evolution silhouette’ showing top-down silhouettes of Formula One cars from the 1950s to 2010.

    Lotus 1Malaysia – Cosworth
    #24 – Heikki Kovalainen
    #25 – Bruno Senna

    Twenty-five years after Ayrton Senna drove for Lotus, Bruno Senna drives the number twenty-five Lotus 1Malaysia. More cynical minds consider it to be a marketing stunt, but with the Malaysian consortium having purchased Lola’s intended 2010 chassis, the project is not as flimsy as first felt. Joining Senna is Heikki Kovalainen, who Lotus picked up after he was unceremoniously cut loose by McLaren, making this a Malaysian team based in England with a Brazilian and a Finnish driver. If nothing else, they are a truly multicultural effort.

    Livery: With Malaysia’s national racing colours being yellow and white, and Lotus’s corporate colours being yellow and green, the car is painted in the style of the Lotus 99T. Petronas joins from BMW as lead sponsor on the sidepods and Italian safety gear manufacturer Alpinestars signing up as secondary sponsor.

    Sauber Projekt Rennen – Ferrari
    #26 – Robert Kubica
    #27 – Nick Heidfeld

    After Middle Eastern consortium QADBAK Investments purchased the remnants of the BMW-Sauber team, it was temporarily renamed Sauber Projekt Rennen, or ‘Sauber Racing Project’. A new name was never found, largely because it was so well-received. The Swiss-German team retained its 2009 line-up to ease the transition, though little of the team’s internal structure changed.

    Livery: When the car was first unveiled, many thought it was an Audi project with the prominent presence of Infineon as a major sponsor and the gunmetal-grey finish of the car. Other sponsorship comes from postal group DHL, national air carrier Lufthansa, and mobile phone manufacturer Siemens.

    Matmut Renault
    #28 – Romain Grosjean
    #29 – Fernando Alonso

    After the 2009 race-fixing controversy, Renault was very nearly kicked out of the sport. Renault president Carlos Ghosn announced that Renault would race in 2010 to reclaim their image and promptly fired the team’s senior personnel, who were banned. Ghosn replaced them with staff from GP2 tea, ART Grand Prix and Le Mans outfit Oreca. Fernando Alonso decided to stay with the team to help them reclaim their image, while Grosjean’s contract was renewed as there was no-one would could really replace him.

    Livery: French insurance giant Matmut comes-onboard, with the car styled after the yellow, purple and scarlet one used by the Oreca Le Mans team. It is derided at first, but soon grows on everyone.

    I can only conclude that I have way too much time on my hands.
     
  19. NapoleonMikey

    NapoleonMikey

    Messages:
    1,134
  20. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

    Messages:
    33,155
    Location:
    Peru
    I know. It's jsut how I'd stack the grid if I had complete control over everything.

    Like if I was Bernie, but used my powers for good and for Aweome.
     
  21. Prince.M5

    Prince.M5

    Messages:
    5,160
    Location:
    Malaysia
    WOW Lotus 1Malaysia??? Is this true but yeah if it has been in the official site so it must be true... First Malaysian Team!!! What's QADBAK???
     
  22. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

    Messages:
    33,155
    Location:
    Peru
    They're a Swiss-German investment group with "connections to several families in Europe and the Middle East". It could mean anything, really. Nobody seems to know who they are, but they are known to have purchased the second-division Notts County FC team. I have seen a translation of an interview with Peter Sauber, and he claims he knows who they are and that he trusts them, but that he cannot - or does not want to - reveal their names.

    Personally, I suspect they're made up of Ernst Stavro Blofeld, Emperor Palpatine and DIck Cheney.
     
  23. Ardius

    Ardius

    Messages:
    10,373
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Sounds like the mysterious Shannon group of Forti (in)fame.
     
  24. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

    Messages:
    33,155
    Location:
    Peru
    I don't think QADBAK would be able to exist like that these days. They'd have to have the money, otherwise they'd never get close to Sauber and BMW.
     
  25. Hun200kmh

    Hun200kmh

    Messages:
    6,460
    Location:
    Portugal
    Question: does anyone know if Sauber sold his share of the company too, or just BMW?
     
  26. Ardius

    Ardius

    Messages:
    10,373
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    No, Peter still part owns it.
     
  27. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

    Messages:
    33,155
    Location:
    Peru
    Any suggestions for potential names?

    Personally, I like Sauber Rennprojekt, forst two reasons. Firstly, it gets away from the usual "Grand Prix" or "Racing" or "F1" suffix. Secondly, German is not a poetic language, and so "Rennprojekt" ("racing project") doesn't sound like it's trying to be anything it isn't. It's hard, yes, but you get a pretty good idea of what it means. A project is also an ongoing thing, so it sounds like Sauber are setting up a platform to build upon.
     
  28. Ardius

    Ardius

    Messages:
    10,373
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Sauber

    Do I win?
     
  29. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

    Messages:
    33,155
    Location:
    Peru
    No. Because I say so.
     
  30. Ardius

    Ardius

    Messages:
    10,373
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    QADBAK Sauber Ferrari will be the likely name, going by previous iterations of Sauber.