26 cars lined up for 2010 & bile from Bernie

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I don't get this "Nazi connotations" deal. I mean, the Volkswagen is, right there in the name, the "people's car", commissioned by Hitler so every German could have a car, be happy, and shut up while they wage wars (the original name of the Beetle was supposed to be the "Kdf Wagen", Kraft durch Freude, the "Strength through joy Wagon"). BMWs built parts for the Luftwaffe (and still have an effin' propeller in the logo, just to remind us of it). Mercedes are the symbol of evil motoring (for proof, the Original Were-Car was a Daimler-era Chrysler). And yet a half-forgotten GP car is what's supposed to scare us?
This is a car-site, some of us know about these old racing monsters, but ye average Joe? Even in Israel, every kiddo dreams of a Mercedes, and every chav wants his trashed 3-series - nobody born in the past 50 years here minds buying German cars, even if they were directly linked to the Nazi regime in the past.
 
BMWs ... still have an effin' propeller in the logo.

Common misconception. It is actually the colours of Bavaria, but in popular culture the propellor makes a better story! Here is the Bavarian Coat of Arms:
320px-Coat_of_arms_of_Bavaria.svg.png

Look at the center. That is where the BMW roundel comes from.
 
I don't get this "Nazi connotations" deal. I mean, the Volkswagen is, right there in the name, the "people's car", commissioned by Hitler so every German could have a car, be happy, and shut up while they wage wars (the original name of the Beetle was supposed to be the "Kdf Wagen", Kraft durch Freude, the "Strength through joy Wagon"). BMWs built parts for the Luftwaffe (and still have an effin' propeller in the logo, just to remind us of it). Mercedes are the symbol of evil motoring (for proof, the Original Were-Car was a Daimler-era Chrysler). And yet a half-forgotten GP car is what's supposed to scare us?
This is a car-site, some of us know about these old racing monsters, but ye average Joe? Even in Israel, every kiddo dreams of a Mercedes, and every chav wants his trashed 3-series - nobody born in the past 50 years here minds buying German cars, even if they were directly linked to the Nazi regime in the past.
That's as may be; Germany has re-created itself ... but it wasn't Israel I had in mind when I posted that. It's the politically-correct puritans who will raise hell over it, the people who say that shopping centres shouldn't have Christmas displays because it's disrespectful to people from other cultures but don't seem to realise they kill the spirit for children.
 
Common misconception. It is actually the colours of Bavaria, but in popular culture the propellor makes a better story! Here is the Bavarian Coat of Arms:

Look at the center. That is where the BMW roundel comes from.

That's where it came from, but the propeller interpretation was adopted, pre-WWII:

Wiki
an interpretation that BMW adopted for convenience in 1929, which was actually twelve years after the roundel was created

Plus, origins don't really matter when it comes to public perception and opinion regarding a logo or marque.

That's as may be; Germany has re-created itself ... but it wasn't Israel I had in mind when I posted that. It's the politically-correct puritans who will raise hell over it, the people who say that shopping centres shouldn't have Christmas displays because it's disrespectful to people from other cultures but don't seem to realise they kill the spirit for children.

If they don't have problems driving a VW or BMW, or even Mitsubishis, Fords and GM cars (who all had WWII ties with Germans and their allies), then they shouldn't have problems driving an Auto Union.
 
"Made famous by the Silver Arrow grand prix cars of the '30s[...]"

Thats like an article talking about the latest Lotus and giving a brief history including their history in F1 - its not saying anything about future plans for F1 at all.
Not to mention when the Auto Union cars were racing, F1 didn't exist so they don't have any tradition with competing in it.
 
That's why I said "wishful thinking" in parenthesis...geez, it was supposed to be a small note of the possible resurrection of Audi's old GP entry. Besides, Audi said they might consider F1 if the costs came down, so who knows what we might get from this...

(again, wishful thinking...)
 
That's why I said "wishful thinking" in parenthesis...geez, it was supposed to be a small note of the possible resurrection of Audi's old GP entry. Besides, Audi said they might consider F1 if the costs came down, so who knows what we might get from this...

(again, wishful thinking...)

But it mentions nothing of the sort....
 
If they don't have problems driving a VW or BMW, or even Mitsubishis, Fords and GM cars (who all had WWII ties with Germans and their allies), then they shouldn't have problems driving an Auto Union.
In theory, yes.
 
Racing Engineering want in, but not until 2011:
Racing Engineering hoping to enter F1 in 2011[/b]

18 May 2009

As of next season it should become easier for other teams to enter Formula 1 with a new team. One of the GP2 teams showing its interest to move up one level is Racing Engineering, owned by Spanish business man Alfonso de Orleans. He is keen to enter the sport as of 2011 he told GPUpdate.net in an exclusive interview.

The Racing Engineering team claimed the GP2 series title last season with Giorgio Pantano. The Spanish team, who is based near Jerez, is keen to enter Formula 1 in 2011. "We don't think that most teams will be ready for the 2010 season, so we are aiming for 2011. If there are no slots left for us at that time, so be it. There are other interesting projects we are looking at as an alternative. But we either do things right, or not at all," De Orleans told GPUpdate.net. "Only a team like Prodrive and maybe Lola could make it on the grid with a serious team. I think that the others would have a very hard time running a proper operation. Some of the GP2 teams could squeeze by, but there is a lot of work ahead if they really want to be even slightly competitive."

It could be possible that De Orleans would miss out on an entry when the grid is full with 13 teams but that doesn't make him want to enter the sport any earlier than 2011. "We will have to see. But even if there is a full grid next year, will all the teams be there for the following season? Besides, there is still no definite rule on the price cap as of today, so who knows what it will cost," he said.

The team will most likely enter the sport with its own team, even though the option is still open to purchase an other team. "We will look at both, but as of today, since we already have 90% of what is required to run an F1 team, we don't think that buying a team is the best option. Don't forget, there is an enormous amount of skilled personnel looking to get back into F1 these days. We will definitely take advantage of this."
I don't think the sit-and-wait philosophy is going to pay off unless someone withdraws. Maybe then they could appear as a manufacturer-backed effort, like a Racing Engineering-Renault deal; buy the financial black hole that is Briatore's team and have Renault supply the engines if the Powers That Be don't want to completely remove themselves from the sport.
 
A list of teams described as being serious about competing next year has been leaked:
Four new teams confirm F1 plans

By Jonathan Noble - Wednesday, May 20th 2009, 10:25 GMT

Former grand prix boss Nick Wirth, sportscar team Epsilon Euskadi, leading race car engineering company Ray Mallock Limited and GP2 outfit Campos Racing have joined the list of outfits confirming plans to compete in Formula 1 next year, AUTOSPORT has learned.

Although only a handful of outfits have gone public with their intention to make the step into F1 in 2010, a more expanded list of candidates emerged from the French courts on Tuesday during the hearing to discuss Ferrari's bid to get an injunction on next year's rules.

As part of the defence from the FIA that such an injunction would wreck the plans of new teams to make the jump to F1, AUTOSPORT understands that a number of letters were presented from new teams saying that any delay to them getting the go-ahead for 2010 plans would force them to abandon their efforts.

According to sources, the list of teams that were looking at moving to F1 were Lola, USF1, Wirth Research, Epsilon Euskadi, RML, Formtech, Campos Racing and iSport.

Another two outfits have also expressed an interest in moving up to F1. British F3 team Litespeed issued a statement declaring its intention to apply for an entry, while Prodrive has also admitted to be considering the move.

However, in recent days Prodrive boss David Richards has suggested that uncertainty over the 2010 regulations was forcing him to consider a rethink about his plans.

"The new regulations announced by the FIA are very much in line with what we were expecting and, I believe, have the potential to allow a team to be commercially viable and competitive on a far more realistic budget," he told GPWeek.

"However, we are very concerned about the controversy these proposals have created with the existing teams and the uncertainty that this has created."

Bernie Ecclestone has also talked about a second team from the United States expressing an interest.

FIA president Max Mosley made it clear last week that the governing body was unwilling to compromise on its plans for a £40 million voluntary budget cap because it was vital that new teams came into F1.

"If we wait any longer, we won't have any new teams because it is too late for them to come," he said. "I think there was an element among the FOTA teams hoping to delay until the point where there could be no new teams.

"I think we now have 11 organisations that say they want to come in, of whom seven are serious. So it will be interesting to see what happens."

Should Ferrari's injunction application be successful, then it will mean that all the 2010 regulations introduced by the FIA last month will be on hold - including the fact that the entry list for the 2010 championship closes on May 29.

With the matter likely to go to appeal whichever side wins, the delay in the entry list closure will buy manufacturer teams more time to propose alternative regulations to the FIA - even though it could force new entrants to abandon efforts.

A decision from the French courts is expected at 2pm local time on Wednesday.

So that makes the list of known applicants as follows:
Prodrive/Aston Martin
United States Grand Prix Engineering
Epsilon Euskadi
Campos Racing
Lola
iSport
RML
Formtech
Wirth Engineering

And the list of potential, suspected and rumoured entrants looks like this:
ART Grand Prix
Hyundai
Litespeed F3/Mike Gascoyne project
Racing Engineering

Ferrari, however, don't like it:
Ferrari slams quality of new teams

By Jonathan Noble - Wednesday, May 20th 2009, 12:30 GMT

Ferrari has blasted the quality of entries being lined up to join Formula 1 next year - even going so far as saying the sport would perhaps be better off rebranded as 'Formula GP3'.

Shortly prior to finding out that it had lost its legal bid to prevent the FIA introducing a £40 million voluntary budget cap in F1 for next year, Ferrari vented its frustration at the teams hoping to make the step up to motor racing's premier category.

As AUTOSPORT revealed earlier today, the court case that took place in Paris yesterday revealed the list of teams serious about joining F1 was Wirth Research, Lola, USF1, Epsilon Euskadi, RML, Formtech, Campos and iSport.

These teams, and the FIA, claimed that if Ferrari's legal bid was successful and the entry deadline for 2010 was delayed by an injunction, then they would have little chance of getting things in place to be ready to race next year.

Ferrari has said it is shocked at the entries – and does not believe they are the kind of teams that will enhance F1's image.

"They couldn't almost believe their eyes, the men at women working at Ferrari, when they read the papers this morning and found the names of the teams, declaring that they have the intention to race in Formula 1 in the next year," said a statement issued on Ferrari's website.

"Looking at the list, which leaked yesterday from Paris, you can't find a very famous name, one of those one has to spend 400 Euros per person for a place on the grandstand at a GP (plus the expenses for the journey and the stay) [to see]."

The statement added: "Can a world championship with teams like them - with due respect - have the same value as today's Formula 1, where Ferrari, the big car manufacturers and teams, who created the history of this sport, compete? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call it Formula GP3?"
Call me a cynic, but I think Ferrari are being very sore here. First of all, their case was thrown out of the French courts, a case that - if it had gone ahead - could have killed the budget cap and probably discouraged a lot of new entries. And secondly, their performance this year has been comparable to an asthsmatc ant with heavy shopping (yes, I've been wacthing Blackadder again). If they're struggling under the new regulations this year, they could be struggling again next year, which means they're likely to be competing with these teams for the lower places. Ferrari clearly think they're above names like Nick Wirth (who brought us the Spinteks) and the likes of Campos and iSport (better known as GP2 teams). I have to wonder what they think of Ross Brawn, given that he's kicking their very sorry behinds in only his first year as a team owner.

Sorry, Ferrari, but you're not endearing yourselves to me very much. A name alone does not give a team the right to compete in he sport.
 
I think Nick Wirth deserves a little bit more respect than he gets really, Simtek was a promising outfit at one point, but like many not-too-shabby teams in the 90s, it succumbed to money problems.
Its not like it was a team that was as silly as Life or Andrea Moda.
 
It will be interesting if they do, because F1 means a lot to Ferrari....I'm wondering whether most F1 fans will stop watching F1 or stop supporting Ferrari? Ferrari without its F1 team is not really Ferrari anymore is it? The same could be said for F1 though, it will be interesting to see where people's loyalty lies.

I think really, if Ferrari are going to be like this about bringing down the rediculous costs then good ridance, I'd rather F1 continue to exist than for it to die very quickly with Ferrari still in it. Ferrari can always come back later and they were never a team I always watched for, though certainly they are high profile and it will be a big shame to see the name gone. But its all Ferrari's fault if they leave really.
 
It will be interesting if they do, because F1 means a lot to Ferrari....I'm wondering whether most F1 fans will stop watching F1 or stop supporting Ferrari? Ferrari without its F1 team is not really Ferrari anymore is it? The same could be said for F1 though, it will be interesting to see where people's loyalty lies.

I think really, if Ferrari are going to be like this about bringing down the rediculous costs then good ridance, I'd rather F1 continue to exist than for it to die very quickly with Ferrari still in it. Ferrari can always come back later and they were never a team I always watched for, though certainly they are high profile and it will be a big shame to see the name gone. But its all Ferrari's fault if they leave really.

👍 +1

Formula 1 can manage without Ferrari, they've not always been one of the front running teams after all. But Ferrari's whole image rests on their sporting prowess. Any successful sportscar/sports prototype programme they've run has always been in addition to their F1 programme. Ferrari's whole image would take a massive blow if they dropped out of F1, they know that too so i doubt they'd ever seriously risk leaving the sport.

They do now however make a front engined, rear wheel drive normally aspirated V8, largely designed for the American market. Perhaps if they do spit their dummies out they can have a shot at NASCAR like Toyota have done? ;)
 
Agreed with both Ardius and Crackerz there.

Before Toyota entered Formula 1, I was a Ferrari fan. But at the moment, I can't be bothered less about the team other than its drivers. It seems that when things don't go exactly like they want, and they are obviously keeping other, smaller teams from entering the sport, all they can do is to swim stream upwards, and bitch about everything. My respect for them has declined with a serious amount this season. A budget cap allows more teams to enter this sport, and I think most of us have been dreaming of a grid larger than 20 cars for a very long time now. It also makes F1 more competitive, and it allows more manufacturers to implement F1 technology into every day cars, but obviously Ferrari is only busy about their image as having a dominant role in F1.
 
I stopped being a Ferrari fan once Schumacher and Todt arrived.

I'd like to see them take part in a new version of the old Group C prototype category taking on Porsche and Jaguar over 1000KM and 24 Hour races. That would good fun.
 
👍 +1

Formula 1 can manage without Ferrari, they've not always been one of the front running teams after all. But Ferrari's whole image rests on their sporting prowess. Any successful sportscar/sports prototype programme they've run has always been in addition to their F1 programme. Ferrari's whole image would take a massive blow if they dropped out of F1, they know that too so i doubt they'd ever seriously risk leaving the sport.

They do now however make a front engined, rear wheel drive normally aspirated V8, largely designed for the American market. Perhaps if they do spit their dummies out they can have a shot at NASCAR like Toyota have done? ;)

Not to mention that their road car arm makes absolutely no money at all...

Any profit Ferrari makes is exclusively down to merchandising :lol:
 
I stopped being a Ferrari fan once Schumacher and Todt arrived.

I'd like to see them take part in a new version of the old Group C prototype category taking on Porsche and Jaguar over 1000KM and 24 Hour races. That would good fun.

:drool:
Where do I sign?

Its a shame if Ferrari leave now, as I've been saying a lot in this sub-forum, finally the Ferrari of old (before Todt) has come back but now they just want to leave rather than have a go anyway. Boo.
 
Not to mention that their road car arm makes absolutely no money at all...

Any profit Ferrari makes is exclusively down to merchandising :lol:

I didn't know that, where did you get that information?


I also would like to see a return by Ferrari to Le Mans (fighting for the overall victory, not class), but the Le Mans Series is in fact a two tier championship and I don't think Ferrari will make a diesel engine.

Anyway, I think it might be good if Ferrari (and possibly other manufacturers) leave F1. A championship based on small and "poor" independent teams under the firm command of the FIA (and their financial inspectors), with spec engines provided by Cosworth (or someone else, even Mercedes) could be very competitive and interesting to follow.

But the main advantage would be that such a scenario would put BE out of business quickly, would make the series return to some of the lost traditional venues (if they have interest in receiving it), would make the teams get their fair share of money from the sport.

And, as someone said already, Ferrai can always return to F1 after a few years away.
 
There are times when I wish Ferrari would quit F1. I'm getting sick of their arrogance.
Same. There may have been a time where I would have been desperate to see them stay, but right now, I don't care if they depart tomorrow and good riddance to them if they do.
 
I also wish Ferrari to quit Formula 1. Mosley is doing everything he can to make it happen and I think it should happen indeed.

I just hope di Montezemolo has what it takes to make such a decision. And I hope he can quickly put some racing reds somewhere else.
 
So ... forty-eight hours after vehemently denying it, Campos are back in:
Campos submits F1 entry for 2010

22 May 2009

Former Formula 1 driver Adrian Campos is the first team to submit an entry for the 2010 Formula 1 championship on Friday. The Spaniard submitted his entry for next season just minutes after the application window opened.

The application window opened at midnight, while the closing deadline is May 29 2009. The team confirmed its official entry in a statement but no details were given about any details of the team.

Adrian Campos ran a GP2 team until the end of last season when he sold his GP2 team to a Spanish business man.

Over 10 teams already expressed an interest so far to enter Formula 1 next season but so far just one team has officially submitted an entry for next year's Formula 1 season.
So, not only have they done a complete backflip, but they're also the first official entry given that applications have only just opened. That said, Ecclestone has said entires won't be granted on a first-come-first-serve basis, but rather on the mertis of individual applications, which is just plain common sense.

Spanish media are also reporting that Campos are working with the aid of Carlos Slim, the enigmatic Mexican businessman who was the first name associated with the Honda buyout, and also with Spanish-born NBA player Pau Gasol, though Campos deny it.

So we've got a Spanish entrant likely to be basedin Spain and being run by a former Formula One driver from Spain, with funding supposedly coming from a Spanish-speaking businessman and having a connection to a Spanish basketball player. Given that Campos gave Fernando Alonso a drive early in his career, what the bet that Spaniard's name is the first associated with Campos Grand Prix?
 
Given that Campos gave Fernando Alonso a drive early in his career, what the bet that Spaniard's name is the first associated with Campos Grand Prix?

The are rumors that Pedro Martínez De La Rosa and Giorgio Pantano could be the drivers.
Thinking about it...a Spanish F1 Team, with Alonso, De La Rosa and Javi Villa or Roldan Rodriguez or Marc Gené (If Ferrari retires) as test driver? Sounds good. They've got the technology, they've got the tracks (Catalunya, Jerez, Monteblanco), they've got the cojones...
 
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