A new game engine for the next GT?

[queleuleu]

Even if the game is gorgeous thanks to its amazing lighting, I start thinking that Poly needs a new game engine for the next GT if on PS4.

At the moment, GTSport is the only game with static time of day and no weather conditions. I'm convinced that rain is ready but simply hurts the framerate too much. There is not a single video showing how rain would look like (Northern Isle Festival is too light. The way Driveclub did before the update two months after its release.

Except for its graphics and now the cars sounds , GT is stuck in the past IMO:
-objects interactions: the orange stripes at Fisherman's Ranch are still in concrete and invisible walls still a thing in 2018. Forza Horizon was really an eye opener for me, but even Forza Motorsport does a good job.

-car collisions: to me, an overtaking and close racing with the current engine collision is almost dull because collisions are too permissive in GT.

In general, everything looks too clean in GT. The car deformation is average to say the least; the windscreen always perfectly clean. The walls, tecpro barriers and other tyre walls: no visible interaction.

An incremental improvement of the game engine is not enough, they have to change it at its core in order to be a true next gen game like Forza, Project Cars and now AC Competizione.

 

[LaSupra]

From what I've gathered from the behind-the-scenes documentaries of PD, they write their own game engine for GT Sport and all GTs before it. Most likely that PD are just reusing and adapting the existing code for the new consoles. Whatever doesn't work in time for release gets taken out.

Surely if it takes that long to 'port' their engine over to the new generation of PS (2-3 years with a dedicated engine team?), they must've considered using a pre-built engine to speed up the process. With ACC, they're using Unreal Engine 4 now and the game looks brilliant so far.

Although I do love the GT series, I agree that with each title it has slowly been feeling more grounded and limited compared to other racing titles and that something needs to change to keep it competitive.

 

[BigJimmy]

I think it does what it says on the tin. They needed a engine that delivered consistent and predictable racing for official online championships and that what they delivered (penalties aside). They never set out to create an in depth sim experience like PCARs or Asseto Corsa.

What they need in the future all depends on what sort of game they make next.

 

[Lord Protector]

As far TOD goes, I'm pretty sure GT Sport's engine could handle a dynamic TOD, it's probably just a matter of power resources, what is probably too much for the PS4.

All scenery shadows are calculated and casted in real time anyway and the game already allows for multiple shadow sources. Moving sun as main source of light doesn't seem like an issue to me.

 

[TonyJZX]

They already said the models and game engine form the backbone of Gran Turismo for the next decade and beyond.

This is GT - get used to this for the forseeable... so much so your kids are probably going to be playing the same engine.

 

[bdj57]

Not sure if they want to opt for something like Unreal graphic engines for next title though. Looks like they still want to developed the game by themselves at the moment (it might be under development too considering PS4 lifespan is about to end). We will see when the next GT is announced does anything Kaz said about their team saying if there are some assets ready for the future titles were true. For now, let them focus on GTS for good. Hopefully PD could learn one or two things from what is missing in GTS currently and add those for next GT titles.

 

[danh25]

The GT engine is great, let's not joke, the fact that they do not implement certain things does not hit anything with the engine they're using but I think it's a compromise to keep the 60fps and their visual fidelity.
However, already in GT5 they were working on a model of procedural damage that if he continued to develop today would have been really great:

For ps5 I expect things to be implemented that have not been added in this generation, considering that the power it will not missed, in the end the GTS engine is ready for the next generation, so you just need to improve it, where it is needed, visually.

 

[Tornado]

They already said the models and game engine form the backbone of Gran Turismo for the next decade and beyond.

Just like they did in 2009.

 

[IngRobNy]

I start thinking that Poly needs a new game engine for the next GT if on PS4.

At the moment, GTSport is the only game with static time of day and no weather conditions.

They don't need a new game engine for that, in GT 5 we had both weather change and time of day change, I hope PD will include day/night cycle on Nürgburgring Nordschleife 24h and Circuit de la Sarthe in the future of GT S , I don't need rain, it's like driving on ice .

 

[SestoScudo]

I want a realistic damage model

 

[HarVee]

Why are invisible walls a bad thing exactly?

Often times the infield/outfield of tracks either have really bad detailing, or don't have solid surfaces. Sometimes it can actually be both. They're not meant to be seen or used as the focus of the game is on the track itself.

The detailing aspect I can agree with. GT does, and always has, looked "clean". When GT is compared to other racing titles it's apparent how some tinier details like scratch marks and cracks don't often exist. It would be awesome to have more dynamic and destructible environments. Wreckfest did it amazingly and if an indie studio with a budget of roughly 150,000 USD can have such environments, I don't see why PDI can't put more effort into that aspect of their game(s).

 

[KilzoneStrife]

With rumors of next gen having a beefier CPU, Ryzen 2: 4 core at 3,00ghz and the like, and the way they designed this engine for GPGPU to cater for the weak Jaguar Cpu's, its likely major parts of the engine need rewriting.. if they want to make it more efficient.
However, as next gen will 100% be X86-64 based and once again use an Amd CPU/GPU again, it will carry over easily.

Its 99.99999% certainty we will get dynamic day/night/weather again next gen even if they dont make a new engine because those are CPU limitations this gen, with volumetric clouds etc being too cpu intensive.

 

[KilzoneStrife]

double post, sorry

 

[SmnSyz]

The engine and assets are a carry over with features added for sure. Just look at how everything is scaled down in race.

 

[SmnSyz]

And Wreckfest is impressive and very demanding... Reviewers have said even a GTX1080 can’t run max settings at 4K.

 

[Vspectra]

This isn't an engine issue. They just made design choices in order to focus on better graphics. Forza Motorsport also still uses completely baked environment shadows into the textures while GTSport has dynamic shadows which are considerably more taxing on the hardware (Just look at GT6 low-res flickering shadows, and again on this gen both Pcars 1 and 2 still isn't able to fix them on current consoles); GTS is in a better position to bring back 24h dynamic Time of Day if they wanted to. The engines for these other big racers don't get completely remade anyway, they're just building and improving upon their old engine like Polyphony is doing.

Everything else from deformations and dirtiness is just Polyphony being Polyphony. Dirty cars are just texture applications and they already had that and procedural deformation system implemented into the engine last-gen. Polyphony and Kaz is that weird and annoying studio making questionable decisions on why they don't want to bring this back despite being a talented team (people on forums making fun of the quirks of procedural deformation simply because you can cause some weird looking deformed cars if you have the patience to take the time and wreck it that much probably didn't help in bringing it back either).

I also hate those stripes acting as invisible walls in the rally tracks too but that has nothing to do with an engine, just seems like Polyphony putting in their harsh track limits as a design decision for whatever reason like the harsh limits on LeMans. Very annoying. GT Willow Springs shows you they could just remove those strip limits and let you drive across the dirt field but PD insists on being old PD.

 

[Corsa]

At the moment, GTSport is the only game with static time of day and no weather conditions.

Raceroom, iRacing, and Assetto Corsa have none either and do just fine.

(AC has AssettobyNight/weather mod which is fantastic, but not an official release)

 

[Haitauer]

Even if the game is gorgeous thanks to its amazing lighting, I start thinking that Poly needs a new game engine for the next GT if on PS4.

At the moment, GTSport is the only game with static time of day and no weather conditions. I'm convinced that rain is ready but simply hurts the framerate too much. There is not a single video showing how rain would look like (Northern Isle Festival is too light. The way Driveclub did before the update two months after its release.

Except for its graphics and now the cars sounds , GT is stuck in the past IMO:
-objects interactions: the orange stripes at Fisherman's Ranch are still in concrete and invisible walls still a thing in 2018. Forza Horizon was really an eye opener for me, but even Forza Motorsport does a good job.

-car collisions: to me, an overtaking and close racing with the current engine collision is almost dull because collisions are too permissive in GT.

In general, everything looks too clean in GT. The car deformation is average to say the least; the windscreen always perfectly clean. The walls, tecpro barriers and other tyre walls: no visible interaction.

An incremental improvement of the game engine is not enough, they have to change it at its core in order to be a true next gen game like Forza, Project Cars and now AC Competizione.

I want a realistic damage model

I believe deformation or wall collision are not points of interest for PDI at the moment. They clearly concentrate on what happens in clean racing.. Even mechanical damage is trivial in their accessible esport plan.

 

[JSHuiting]

And Wreckfest is impressive and very demanding... Reviewers have said even a GTX1080 can’t run max settings at 4K.

Isn't 4k always demanding on a single GPU? Or am i missing something.
The game itself runs just fine maxed out on a 1050 at 60fps, i wouldn't call that demanding.

If anything BugBear is one of the best developers engine wise, just look at FlatOut on the PSP, it's amazing to see what these guys can do.

 

[Zokusha]

Me personally I dont care so much about time of day or weather changes. I to wonder why in 2018 invisible walls exist, while understanding there has to be a unrealistic limit to travel just because its not a open world game at the same time. The whole basis of the game is racing and staying on course. Now granted on the more being social with other car enthusiast, and not caring about just the racing aspect of the game so much. Having the ability to not be so limited in your environment would be great for those who like to do cruise/cops/photo shoot lobbies. Honestly I care more about PD working harder on more custom options, better driving physics, lower ride heights, and other more realistic abilities for the cars themselves. On gt5 and 6 I spend more time in drift lobbies, where we may record gameplay for video's and pics. So honestly the always perfect sunny time of day, is more welcome to me. So from my point of view working on more realistic driving physics, custom car options that help bring more of car culture into gameplay, realistic engine sounds, and more popular enthusiast cars, instead of a bunch of repeat cars, or cars that have no business in the game. Are far more important to me, over weather and time a day.

 

[HarVee]

Isn't 4k always demanding on a single GPU? Or am i missing something.
The game itself runs just fine maxed out on a 1050 at 60fps, i wouldn't call that demanding.

If anything BugBear is one of the best developers engine wise, just look at FlatOut on the PSP, it's amazing to see what these guys can do.

I have a 1050Ti and I can barely get 40fps on max at 1080p. On mid settings I can get 60, but it isn't stable with a grid larger than 6. Had to resort to locking it to 30 to make it playable. I would say Wreckfest is quite demanding unless you have a top range GPU and CPU combination. All of the calculations needed for the destructive environments and soft body car physics takes it toll, which partially is why I personally am not expecting PDI to go all out like Bugbear did, but I do wish for PDI to have their environments be a bit more dynamic. Something akin to tyre stacks that are dynamic and concrete barriers that have scrapes and cracks on them when hit.

 

[J.D]

New engine but only for next GT on PS5 it would be pointless for PS4.

 

[Sander 001]

Stopped reading at a comparison with a 30fps choppy game, half the frame rate of the absolute minimum for a proper racing game. Even Project Car 2 is 60 but it’s still not near as smooth as GT Sport. If I could take out all the weather, time change in PC2 to make it as smooth as GT Sport, I’d do it in a heartbeat.

 

[HarVee]

Stopped reading at a comparison with a 30fps choppy game, half the frame rate of the absolute minimum for a proper racing game. Even Project Car 2 is 60 but it’s still not near as smooth as GT Sport. If I could take out all the weather, time change in PC2 to make it as smooth as GT Sport, I’d do it in a heartbeat.

I wouldn't discredit what Wreckfest and PC2 achieved simply because of their less-than-ideal frame rates. That's a bit close-minded.

 

[Slaghead]

My understanding is that PD had to write a new engine from the ground up because of the architecture change of the hardware. PS3 was weird but powerful but you couldn't simply port that engine over to the more standard hardware of the PS4. They had that same hurdle going from PS2 to PS3 which at least partially explains the long development time. Going from PS4 to PS5, I expect that the engine won't require a rewrite at all and the hardware improvements will allow them to do a lot more with their current engine. I wouldn't be surprised if they were able to find some optimizations in the current engine to allow for some additional details like TOD and weather without sacrificing FPS over the next couple of years though I'd stop short of expecting it.

 

[glassjaw]

The engines for these other big racers don't get completely remade anyway, they're just building and improving upon their old engine like Polyphony is doing.

Exactly. I'm reminded of this every time I return to Forza every three or so years. You get this nagging sense that in spite of what's added or taken away, the way the game feels hasn't changed in a decade. Also true of GT, and most other sims.

This generalized speak of "engines" though does remind me of a certain Twitter thread from a developer last year. (Not embedded cuz light profanity)

 

[Auditore]

The next gen will definetly allow PD to put dynamic weather/time of day conditions although there is that old saying that if you give a game dev a 5 pound bag they will try to fit 10 pounds which means PD could go for the MAXIMUM GRAPHICS AND LIGHTING and the downside is no dinamic time of day...again

 

[TonyJZX]

Exactly. I'm reminded of this every time I return to Forza every three or so years. You get this nagging sense that in spite of what's added or taken away, the way the game feels hasn't changed in a decade. Also true of GT, and most other sims.

This generalized speak of "engines" though does remind me of a certain Twitter thread from a developer last year. (Not embedded cuz light profanity)

Two points: when people talk about engines and avoiding them they're like the 1% - whatever they do, it doesnt matter because the majority dont have any idea what an 'engine' is.

2ndly I get your point about Forza driving like "Forza" and GT driving like "Gran Turismo"...

To me I feel like Forza 4 to Forza 7 has the same background obviously but I think its kind of simplified since Forza 5... they shot for the moon in 5 and the engine ended up being too hard to drive for many.

I kind of feel like GTS seems to have added complexity and nuance over GT5/6.

If you want to go on a bad comparison, look at how driving has gone from Gran Theft Auto San Andreas to GTA4 and GTA5.

COmpanies respond to mass consumer backlash however they dont want to alienate the base who expects GT to drive like GT.

I feel like F4 -> F5 -> F6 -> F7 feels samey and a bit stagnant. I can sort of go back and not feel to 'offended' or alienated.

GT5 -> GT6 -> GTS I feel like going back to GT5 which I have done, I'm kind of a bit disappointed? I know I shouldnt be as we're going from 2017 to 2010 so expect the GT5 drive model to be kind of crude in 2017 and it is.

I'm happy with how GTS drives. I feel like they could pretty much do nothing at this point and I'd be happy if GT7 drives the same. I dont expect damage or day night because... this is PD we're talking about and its lowered expectations.

 

[Lee x sensai]

This time for Sony is running on ps5 is mostly PC spec. It will be easier for PD going to be port all the old stuff from ps4. The only issue I have with the ps5 will it have good CPU ? If does, I want the PD bring back real time weather system while doing 60Pfs with great graphic and no frame drop.

 

[SmnSyz]

My point with Wreckfest was consider what PD could do with more than twice hardware. Basically all the features everyone is asking for could be added in.