A-Spec PP590 German Touring Car Championship

[yannagas]

I'd feel really uncomfortable in this, but crossing the channel would mean just shifting seats! They made this in 1996 and we haven't seen it since except for the Honda so I'm thinking they stopped eating those mushroom pizzas?

hmm this reminds me of:
"this is the voice of the mysterons"
anybody remember "the thunderbirds" ??
captain black and captain white were using ds3 pads in their vehicles

 

[ItsAllAboutWins]

Apologies Morgorth_666 but I couldn't disagree more.

I have never heard a wheel user ever complain about a DS3 user having an unfair advantage. Quite the reverse, and that 3 second figure IMHO is not that inaccurate although I will say that it probably represents the top end of the performance gap between equally skilled wheel vs DS3 users.

Correct, most serious players have wheels because they take the game seriously and want the experience to be as realistic as possible but lets not kid ourselves. They also have wheel and pedals because it gives them the best possible platform to be able to be competitive too.

Holding up Doodlemonopoly (sorry Doodle) as an example of the norm is preposterous in the extreme. There will ALWAYS be unique individuals that rise above the limitations of any situation and Doodle is one of those. There is no doubt that he is quite extraordinary but to say because he's doing it everyone can is just plain wrong! DS3 users in the top 1000 probably represent less than 2% and I can never accept that at those rates that is a proof positive sample that the DS3 is an equally capable component. If that were true we'd see a much higher sample rate.

Smoothness as you put it or predictable and linear control as I would put it are some of the reasons a wheel is better. Aside from that, the most significant reason is that they are far more accurate and allow much finer levels of control. On a wheel you have inches or movement to determine turn rate on a DS3 you have millimetres of movement so It seems reasonable to posit that error rates would be far higher on a DS3. The same rule applies to braking and acceleration. On the DS3 you have such a fine margin between right and wrong it's almost impossible not to get it wrong.

Here we almost agree, regardless of what equipment you use it's up to the individual and whilst I will argue Wheel vs DS3 till the sun turns blue I would hesitate to argue one wheel over another. If you are a bad driver having the best equipment in the world won't make you a good one and equally if you're exceptionally gifted then I doubt it matters what you use.

I think you are mixing up people with devices. The fact that so many people are equally paced in GT5 is a good thing.

I might not be so quick to agree although I do agree with you that a workman should never blame his/her tools. Having a DS3 does not mean that you can't be competitive and can't have fun but for the ordinary folks in the world who aren't as gifted as Doodlemonopoly like me, a wheel would probably offer a better platform for improvement over a DS3. Who knows Freerizzy, maybe you're the next Doodle and that would be fantastic if that's true but don't discount a wheel.

As a final parting shot, I am a huge fan of the DS3 it's not perfect but it does a really good job and I would never discourage anyone from taking the game as far as they can with one but if you want to make the final move then you simply MUST get a wheel and pedal set. Real cars don't come with DS3's!

I'm 3 seconds slower with a wheel over the ds3. Forza 3 I was 5 seconds slower with a wheel over the controller. That's with knowing the braking zones exactly and when to turn. It's easier to turn with a controller, easier throttle input with a wheel. IMO anyway

 

[Adrenaline]

The fact that doodlemonopoly can be so competitive with either shows that both are quite capable in dedicated and well-practiced hands.

Holding up Doodlemonopoly (sorry Doodle) as an example of the norm is preposterous in the extreme. There will ALWAYS be unique individuals that rise above the limitations of any situation and Doodle is one of those. There is no doubt that he is quite extraordinary but to say because he's doing it everyone can is just plain wrong! DS3 users in the top 1000 probably represent less than 2% and I can never accept that at those rates that is a proof positive sample that the DS3 is an equally capable component. If that were true we'd see a much higher sample rate.

Sorry Argon, but your logic is flawed in this instance.
First of all, he, nor I, used Doodle as a 'norm'. Bolded above. Regardless of how unique the 3-5 guys using DS3's in the top 50 at TT's are, the point is not that it's common, but that DS3's are more than able, to achieve said lap times. As long as the proof is there that it can be done, then you can no longer claim you're using an inferior tool. If you want to claim the wheel has an advantage of ease, or learning curve, or whatever else, fine. But on the track, where lap times are all that are being considered, both devices are capable of obtaining top tier times. Those handful of guys only account for a low percentage of DS3 users, well what percentage do you think the fastest wheel drivers account for? Like normal people like us, don't have to feel the same inadequacies when we realize people like Amo are beating us by seconds per lap with the same input device? It goes both ways. Regardless of Wheel or DS3, it is the person using it, that dictates the results.

 

[Stotty]

I'm 3 seconds slower with a wheel over the ds3. Forza 3 I was 5 seconds slower with a wheel over the controller. That's with knowing the braking zones exactly and when to turn. It's easier to turn with a controller, easier throttle input with a wheel. IMO anyway

Then clearly you're doing something very wrong when you use your wheel!

It's much easier to make precise steering inputs with a wheel than a controller just as it's easier to trail brake and make fine throttle inputs with pedals.

However, a wheel will only allow you to run faster laps than a controller if you take the time to get used to it... Doodle is bit of a controller freak (no offense Doodle), but he has a wheel and once he gets used to it he will be faster.

And the more challenging the car is to drive, the bigger the advantage a wheel will offer.

 

[StarLight]

However, a wheel will only allow you to run faster laps than a controller if you take the time to get used to it...

Yes, I totally agree with you ... I have a wheel but don't use it very much, so I'm still faster with a DS3.

 

[1stlsx]

However, a wheel will only allow you to run faster laps than a controller if you take the time to get used to it...

Very true! I havent used a wheel in a while and finally got one again. Started out and I was 3 seconds off my pace with the Miata TT and then I cut half a second off a lap and improved my time by a full second over my best time with the DS3 and that was just in a 30 minute session or so. There is definately a learning curve, but if you stick with it you can improve...

On a side note my 5 year old managed to beat this (with some steering help) with the merc on the wheel before the update. He was pretty excited!

 

[Argon]

Sorry Argon, but your logic is flawed in this instance.
First of all, he, nor I, used Doodle as a 'norm'. Bolded above. Regardless of how unique the 3-5 guys using DS3's in the top 50 at TT's are, the point is not that it's common, but that DS3's are more than able, to achieve said lap times. As long as the proof is there that it can be done, then you can no longer claim you're using an inferior tool. If you want to claim the wheel has an advantage of ease, or learning curve, or whatever else, fine. But on the track, where lap times are all that are being considered, both devices are capable of obtaining top tier times. Those handful of guys only account for a low percentage of DS3 users, well what percentage do you think the fastest wheel drivers account for? Like normal people like us, don't have to feel the same inadequacies when we realize people like Amo are beating us by seconds per lap with the same input device? It goes both ways. Regardless of Wheel or DS3, it is the person using it, that dictates the results.

And now I must apologise but your logic is flawed and you can bold all the text you like but Doodle was used in the argument. You are making the assumption that a very elite (I used that term respectfully) bunch of DS3 users are a representation of what is achievable with a controller. They are not and neither is what they achieve. The controller is simply never going to allow the mainstream user to achieve the same lap times as a wheel user.

How many top wheel drivers? Is that a trick question? Based on my original statement I would say something around 95-97% of the top 1000 drivers use a wheel. Not sure I really get your point as that metric seems to substantiate my argument.

I tried to be very specific with my language so that I did not infer that simply owning a wheel made you an alien In fact I said that regardless of what you have, if you are a bad driver NOTHING will help. I go further and say that a wheel is not a magic wand it will not transform you into the next Jenson Button or even Amo.

I guess we are not going to agree about wheel vs controller but that's OK and I hope I haven't caused offense 👍

 

[Adrenaline]

And now I must apologise but your logic is flawed and you can bold all the text you like but you absolutely used Doodle in the argument. You are making the assumption that a very elite (I used that term respectfully) bunch of DS3 users are a representation of what is achievable with a controller. They are not and neither is what they achieve. The controller is simply never going to allow the mainstream user to achieve the same lap times as a wheel user.

It doesn't matter how elite they are or aren't, the fact of the matter, is that a DS3 can, and has, achieved exactly what I said it can. You can argue until you're blue in the face, but I have indisputable evidence of what a DS3 can achieve. If you want to throw in conditional words, like mainstream, to alter your standpoint, sobeit, but that wasn't the initial statement in question.

A DS3 can, and has finished in the top 10 of a TT event.
Nothing you can do, will alter this fact.
The pure attempt at trying to dispute it is futile.
DS3's are capable of competing with the best wheel drivers in the game.
How hard it is to do, is not the statement in question at this time.

If you want to claim that wheels have an advantage on the user side, I'm more than willing to agree to that. But the claim that wheels have an advantage implies that they can providing a level of result that the DS3 can not provide.

 

[Argon]

It doesn't matter how elite they are or aren't, the fact of the matter, is that a DS3 can, and has, achieved exactly what I said it can. You can argue until you're blue in the face, but I have indisputable evidence of what a DS3 can achieve. If you want to throw in conditional words, like mainstream, to alter your standpoint, sobeit, but that wasn't the initial statement in question.

A DS3 can, and has finished in the top 10 of a TT event.
Nothing you can do, will alter this fact.
The pure attempt at trying to dispute it is futile.
DS3's are capable of competing with the best wheel drivers in the game.
How hard it is to do, is not the statement in question at this time.

If you want to claim that wheels have an advantage on the user side, I'm more than willing to agree to that. But the claim that wheels have an advantage implies that they can providing a level of result that the DS3 can not provide.

Well it would appear that perhaps you have taken offence as you are now twisting this to suit your purpose and in the interest of avoiding a falling out...You are absolutely correct a DS3 has recorded a top 10 time, odd that it has never recorded a winning time though.

 

[Adrenaline]

Well it would appear that perhaps you have taken offence as you are now twisting this to suit your purpose and in the interest of avoiding a falling out...You are absolutely correct a DS3 has recorded a top 10 time, odd that it has never recorded a winning time though.

I'm not offended at all, I'm just open to debates with people who can carry themselves in a respectable and intelligent manner.

If you want to change the debate at question, to whether a DS3 can achieve the top spot in a TT, that's an alternate question and statement all together. Probably one I wouldn't even argue, but I'd offer an alternate perspective on.

 

[Stotty]

DS3's are capable of competing with the best wheel drivers in the game.

Hmmm... maybe occassionally a DS3 can get top 10 on a Seasonal TT, but I'm not sure that's trully representative of what a controller can achieve.

Doodle is fast with the sticks, but his better TT results have been in cars that put less focus on fine throttle and brake control - GSXR, 2D, 2J. I'm not saying this is less of an achievement, as you still have to run an amazing lap to get in the top 10, but it's much harder to get those rankings when the car has less grip.

And not many of the World's fastest drivers bother to run the Seasonals. When the GT Academy is running and all the big guns come out to play a stick driver would have a much harder time getting in the top 10.

 

[Adrenaline]

Hmmm... maybe occassionally a DS3 can get top 10 on a Seasonal TT, but I'm not sure that's trully representative of what a controller can achieve.

Doodle is fast with the sticks, but his better TT results have been in cars that put less focus on fine throttle and brake control - GSXR, 2D, 2J. I'm not saying this is less of an achievement, as you still have to run an amazing lap to get in the top 10, but it's much harder to get those rankings when the car has less grip.

And not many of the World's fastest drivers bother to run the Seasonals. When the GT Academy is running and all the big guns come out to play a stick driver would have a much harder time getting in the top 10.

Are you implying the NASCAR had tons of grip, and throttle nor braking control were an issue?

 

[Stotty]

Are you implying the NASCAR had tons of grip, and throttle nor braking control were an issue?

Not at all, though compared to the Vette at Deep Forest it felt like it was on racing softs

Still, a 0.7 gap to the top time (best stick user in the NASCAR) would be miles off a top 10 in the Academy when all the fast guys come out.

 

[Adrenaline]

I hope all these fast people in hiding are from countries not named America. I've never done the GT Academy and wanted to give it a shot this year.

 

[Stotty]

I hope all these fast people in hiding are from countries not named America. I've never done the GT Academy and wanted to give it a shot this year.

For perspective...

I can get a World top 20 ranking in a Seasonal TT if I put in a reasonable effort. In the Academy, I would have to invest a huge amount of time just to make top 20 in the UK, and I would seriously struggle to make the World top 100.

There are a lot of very fast drivers out there who only turn up when it really matters.

If my memory serves me correctly (and it may not), there was one player (from Japan, I thnk) using the pad who got in the World top 100 for the 2010 Academy.

 

[Argon]

I'm not offended at all, I'm just open to debates with people who can carry themselves in a respectable and intelligent manner.

If you want to change the debate at question, to whether a DS3 can achieve the top spot in a TT, that's an alternate question and statement all together. Probably one I wouldn't even argue, but I'd offer an alternate perspective on.

Good, I really don't want to offend or fall out with you. I do think however that you are changing the context of the discussion to can a DS3 achieve a top result? And in that regard you are absolutely correct, no argument here. DS3's can achieve a top result.

The debate started however when Polsixe stated...

"Every other week, DoodleMonopoly runs his TT's with the DS3 and finishes top 10-50. Is it easier on a wheel? Probably, but clearly it's achievable on a controller.

Morgorth_666 then made a very reasoned argument that seemed to put the view that a wheel was inconsequential. My response was that I did not agree with that view and that in my honest opinion a wheel will always give an advantage but I have never ever said that you could not achieve a top result with a DS3 simply that using the few occasions that a DS3 did record a top result did not prove that a wheel does not give an advantage.

I still believe despite what you have presented a wheel does give an advantage and in the right hands such as the likes of Amo, Stotty or BanditKarter it's a significantly better device than the humble controller.

 

[Stotty]

I still believe despite what you have presented a wheel does give an advantage and in the right hands such as the likes of Amo, Stotty or BanditKarter it's a significantly better device than the humble controller.

It certainly is for me.... when I 1st got a wheel (back in GT5P), and I got used to it, I cut well over a second off my lap times at Suzuka, and that's when I was good on the DS3. Nowadays, I reckon I'm >1s slower for every 1 minute of lap time if I use the pad.

Oh, and don't mention my name in the same class as Amo or Bandit... they are from another planet

 

[Argon]

 

[Morgoth_666]

Since apparently elite drivers operate by different rules than the rest of us, I ran a quick half-hour 15 lap test of my own(if I run really hard and well I might make top 1,000) at Spa in practice mode with default settings to match the TT settings. Used my NASCAR Cup car using the same exact setup as what I've used in the current TT. I'd have used the TT itself but you know the deal there. The car itself has not changed however.

In 15 laps I ran 4 or 5 within 2 seconds of my best time (set after over 2 hours with my GT3), with my closest being 1.2 seconds off with several obvious mistakes that could have brought me within a second. Most were within 3. Several were red but that never resulted in a gain of time as I always lifted(and lost ground to my ghost in the affected turn). Only one of my laps within 2 seconds was red, and it was not the 1.2. I'd try setting up a more specific test using only practice or only a TT but I just don't care to spend any more time on it.

I long ago lost my ability to drive competently with a controller, stopped using it whenever possible back in the days of Gran Turismo 3. When I've tried using it in the past few years I've been terribly inconsistent with it in any game outside of simplistic stuff like Burnout. I've spent a grand total of maybe 6 or 7 hours driving with the DS3 in GT5 since getting the game two or three months after release. If I spent a few weeks getting used to the steering and finding the pressure needed to control the throttle above 50% I'm sure I'd reliably be within a second of my wheel times. Some corners such as Pouhon were actually much easier to take with the controller.

This is something that will be debated forever and is virtually impossible to verify without exhaustive scientific testing. Results obviously vary widely from person to person. Some are faster within an hour or two of using a wheel. Some take several weeks to over a month before they are consistently running as well as they were with a controller. Some people never feel comfortable with a wheel and so never reach parity(although if they seriously dedicated some time to it they might). Is there an advantage one way or another in GT5? Maybe, it's impossible to be sure. Is it a difference of several seconds over an average-length lap? Highly unlikely.

I regret having encouraged this off-topic discussion here as this is there are other more appropriate venues for it, but for some reason it bothered me hearing the "wide gap" claim being made again and once more supported by the "most of the fastest people use wheels" argument. I never meant to pick on Polsixe at all, I've just seen the claim and argument many times, and if as stated in his/her post more than 10% of the top 100 in the last 4 TTs were using controllers I'd think it actually suggests that things are reasonably competitive between the two.

I'm not suggesting the difference is inconsequential to the user, but I believe the difference is much more one of comfort and confidence than of outright potential pace, at least in GT5. And I'll maintain that a wheel is 1,000 times more fun, whatever the science says.

 

[Polsixe]

I don't have access to Milouse' MyGranTurismo database but the numbers are all there, I just used some snapshot examples earlier. You can mine the data, 70,000 odd TT competitors in multiple ways and you will see the average time difference between DS3 and wheels. Even if there are 200,000 DS3 gods out here who never do the TT is irrelevant, the 70,000 regular TT users are more representative than using A DoodleMonopoly as proof for all DS3, that is cherrypicking and a logic error. Even if he was he is about second slower . If both devices were equal you would expect to see a 50/50 distribution at any ranking range - 5/ top 10, 50/top 100, 500/1000, 35000/70000. That's not the case.

 

[Adrenaline]

If both devices were equal you would expect to see a 50/50 distribution at any ranking range

False.

Not going to get into it with you, as Argon and I have already gone through the motions on a far more intellectual level.

 

[Pjrb04]

Hi....
Can anyonehelp me plz. What is the best car for this race with PP and mhp.
I explain: to win more money best is below 500 pp but its hard so i think is good low pp and hight mhp.

 

[Musolini187]

It doesn't matter how elite they are or aren't, the fact of the matter, is that a DS3 can, and has, achieved exactly what I said it can. You can argue until you're blue in the face, but I have indisputable evidence of what a DS3 can achieve. If you want to throw in conditional words, like mainstream, to alter your standpoint, sobeit, but that wasn't the initial statement in question.

A DS3 can, and has finished in the top 10 of a TT event.
Nothing you can do, will alter this fact.
The pure attempt at trying to dispute it is futile.
DS3's are capable of competing with the best wheel drivers in the game.
How hard it is to do, is not the statement in question at this time.

If you want to claim that wheels have an advantage on the user side, I'm more than willing to agree to that. But the claim that wheels have an advantage implies that they can providing a level of result that the DS3 can not provide.

an f1 driver could finish in top 10 in a gp using a ds3 instead of his steering wheel and pedals. technically both are the same and one doesnt have the advantage over the other. in real life things are different, a wheel is far more precise and a pedal the same, ds3 is much harder to use on the same level. its not impossible, but pretty much it is at the same time. you could do 10 perfect laps on a wheel and pedals, doing 1 on a ds3 is much harder than doing 10 on a wheel and pedals.

 

[Ills1999]

False.

Not going to get into it with you, as Argon and I have already gone through the motions on a far more intellectual level.

Not really, but feel free to continue to believe your opinion, just don't be rude to people who point out that your opinion is ill-informed.

 

[Adrenaline]

Not really, but feel free to continue to believe your opinion, just don't be rude to people who point out that your opinion is ill-informed.

You either don't understand basic mathematics, statistics, or how percentages work. Regardless, what I stated in the specific quote in question, is not 'opinion' it's scientific fact based on fundamental laws of logic.

Based on the available data at hand, you'd be far better off claiming that DS3's should account for for more than 50% of the TT Leaderboards, at least there's data that could potentially back that statement up, even though it ignores key factors that would quantify it.

 

[Ills1999]

You either don't understand basic mathematics, statistics, or how percentages work. Regardless, what I stated in the specific quote in question, is not 'opinion' it's scientific fact based on fundamental laws of logic.

Based on the available data at hand, you'd be far better off claiming that DS3's should account for for more than 50% of the TT Leaderboards, at least there's data that could potentially back that statement up, even though it ignores key factors that would quantify it.

Fact: Getting around a circuit quickly dictates that ALL available grip is used in a positive manner.

Fact: A wheel provides a finer level of control over the ds3 which allows ANY given driver the ability to approach the edge of grip levels and hold the vehicle in that state more consistently.

This isn't a question of probabilities and statistics.

The end.

 

[Adrenaline]

Fact: A wheel provides a finer level of control over the ds3 which allows ANY given driver the ability to approach the edge of grip levels and hold the vehicle in that state more consistently.

Neither of those "facts" apply to the argument at hand.

Can a wheel more easily obtain X steering angle on a consistent basis? I'll agree to that.

But to say that a DS3 can't obtain the same exact steering angles at the same exact points on the track, is ridiculous.

We aren't talking about ease of use, skill required or what your favorite color is. We're talking about the DS3's ability to match the same exact inputs as a wheel. Get that through your head, because you aren't arguing the statement at hand.

 

[ItsAllAboutWins]

Neither of those "facts" apply to the argument at hand.

Can a wheel more easily obtain X steering angle on a consistent basis? I'll agree to that.

But to say that a DS3 can't obtain the same exact steering angles at the same exact points on the track, is ridiculous.

We aren't talking about ease of use, skill required or what your favorite color is. We're talking about the DS3's ability to match the same exact inputs as a wheel. Get that through your head, because you aren't arguing the statement at hand.

White. End of discussion.
Top 10 times are achievable with the DS3. The majority of the serious TT players fancy the wheel in some form or another over the ds3 and that is why you see so many top people using wheels. Not because it can't be done, but because the majority of people who are capable of pulling fast laps use the wheel. Not everyone who enters a TT understands the braking distance, camber of turn, driving line, throttle control etc. Some may do it just for the money of gold and move on. Some people just aren't as fast as someone like Amo, Stotty, Bandit, Doodle, or countless others.

 

[Ills1999]

Neither of those "facts" apply to the argument at hand.

You are exactly wrong.

The argument at hand is "which device makes it easier to achieve the best lap times?"

You are trying to exploit someone else's faulty premise to undermine their correct conclusion.

You're engaging in fantastic contortions to try to prove yourself correct, don't get me wrong, it's entertaining to watch.

But you're still wrong.

 

[Adrenaline]

You are exactly wrong.

The argument at hand is "which device makes it easier to achieve the best lap times?"

You are trying to exploit someone else's faulty premise to undermine their correct conclusion.

You're engaging in fantastic contortions to try to prove yourself correct, don't get me wrong, it's entertaining to watch.

But you're still wrong.

You clearly aren't intelligent enough to continue on with the level of debate. Best of luck in your alternate endeavors.
Stay in school kids.