Air restrictor breaks GT5 multiplayer

[Ghost Rydor]

There is a big difference between a Celica GT4 and a R390.

Is that so and would you like to explain these big differences to me?
The way I see it is that they are legally allowed on the road and had a production run if you can call it a production run, Still no matter which way you cut it the term is ROAD LEGAL which they are.

Um, because Toyota always intended on using the GT4 as a commercial passenger car where as the R390 is a token "no one actually owns one car" so they could enter an extreme racing series?

Anyway thats besides the point of this thread.

Oh, now I see what is going on here. You have a crew of people you race with and everyone else can exit. Have you ever seen that 'private' lobby icon in the game?

Why did you post this thread? Sounds like some sort of bragging deal and/or putting down gtp online players.

We don't meet like robots at a set time but anytime they see I'm on they join me. How else was I supposed to meet them if I hosted private? I am accumulating new players/friends all the time. Anyone doesn't like it, yeah go somewhere else. Start your own room intead of leeching off me.

The point of this thread was to discuss the air restrictor fail, and to maybe share with you all how to defeat it. I didn't tell you how I did it at first because you need to understand the issue before you can understand what I'm up to.
I'm surprised with all the nonsense threads that pop up here every day I thought someone might want to talk about something important for a change. If thats ok with you of course?

And no I don't allow cars with front downforce, LM or RM, you can label them racecars if you like it makes no diff they are op and anyone who uses them knows it, thats why they are using them.

Could have done that in the first post. Intersesting idea actually, but maybe better served if these regs are layed out somewhere before people inter the lobby.

This stupid game won't let you. Once you set the title you have to kill the room to change it. I'm supposed to kick everyone every couple of races we want to change something? Then get them to come back? Not gonna fly.

 

[arora]

, yeah go somewhere else. Start your own room intead of leeching off me.

The point of this thread was to discuss the air restrictor fail, and to maybe share with you all how to defeat it. I didn't tell you how i did it at first because you need to understand the issue before you can understand what i'm up to.
.

lol

 

[designate-19L]

I get you. I think. My favourite racing 'formula' is road-legal (production) cars. But honestly, personally I don't really have any problem racing in a non- or slightly-air-restricted car against a heavily-restricted car. The Celica vs. R390? I haven't used those exact cars, but I've beaten the equivalent of the R390 in the equivalent of the Celica before, in a PP-limited. You'll do very well to get a field of cars within the rules which happen to be extremely close in actual performance, and really, some cars are just naturally more capable than others of the same performance specs. A good example is the Honda NSX. The car is just so well-sorted for its power and weight, the thing practically drives itself. Most FFs and even 4WDs can't keep up with it, despite the same PP level.

If you're that concerned about a level playing field, you might want to take the time and organise a club or series based on a selection of eligible cars. Me, I'd definitely be interested in joining something like that...

 

[Ghost Rydor]

I get you. I think. My favourite racing 'formula' is road-legal (production) cars. But honestly, personally I don't really have any problem racing in a non- or slightly-air-restricted car against a heavily-restricted car. The Celica vs. R390? I haven't used those exact cars, but I've beaten the equivalent of the R390 in the equivalent of the Celica before, in a PP-limited. You'll do very well to get a field of cars within the rules which happen to be extremely close in actual performance, and really, some cars are just naturally more capable than others of the same performance specs. A good example is the Honda NSX. The car is just so well-sorted for its power and weight, the thing practically drives itself. Most FFs and even 4WDs can't keep up with it, despite the same PP level.

If you're that concerned about a level playing field, you might want to take the time and organise a club or series based on a selection of eligible cars. Me, I'd definitely be interested in joining something like that...

What I'm doing works fine. It is very easy for anyone once they had it explained to them. I have never seen any rules work this well. Like I said we don't have to do one make, you have 90%of the cars available and they all work together. The ones that don't fit with my passenger road car regs are Race, concept RM, LM and anything with front downforce ( adjustable).

I'm not here saying I can't get fair races I'm saying I can and heres how.

Ps The double reg means the pp caps how good a car can handle and the hp will have to be reduced also so you pass both regs which counters any air restricter/ cars that shouldn't really be in the race.

Most eligble cars can be detuned to fit so you can use what you want but you can't make a car any better so it is dependant on me using a car at near max output to get the most variety of cars for any one race. If I based it off the best car out then you would have no option but to use the same car, get it?

If you don't get it yet you will eventually you just need to experience the imbalances first hand and its only a matter of time before more people start scratching their heads wondering why they can't seem to be competitive in other lobbies.

They only people who would be opposed to what I'm proposing are the people who rely on having a better car then everyone else.

Ps ps. two cars can be the same and have identical stats but one can still be better then the other because of different suspension tunings so you still have a little performance scope to work with. Its the perfect match maker, its what we wanted all along to be able to race different but similar matched cars.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Then take a car that maxs out at around 400hp and compare graphs.
So now are you going to tell me that a car that makes 400hp at nearly all RPM's is a fair match up to a car that only peaks briefly at 400hp? Totally defeats the point of the game.

Not really, since using the restrictor "perk" definitely changes PP levels, which isn't coincidental since both features were introduced in the same patch. The PP system is a nice guideline, but I would never be silly enough to take it as gospel; two 500PP cars will behave very differently, and may not be competitive.

I aim for regs which allow a wide variety of cars but who all have near identical performance. Its never identical, one might handle a little better but he will not have the straight line speed of another and vice versa.

Actually, one car should probably have an advantage over another in a straight line, depending on how well coefficient of drag is modeled .

Homologation

Infact no let us List a few RACING CARS FOR THE ROAD
Lancia Stratos
Lancia Delta
Subaru Imprezza Pre 97
Toyota Celica GT4
Ford RS200
The list goes on and these are just rally cars

The Impreza, and arguably the Celica, were never "homologation specials", at least not in the sense of the R390 GT1 (a token "production run" to satisfy a silly rule, that's all). The two rally cars were created from their rather pedestrian civilian models, not the other way around. The Ford GT was always built as a road car first. Same goes with the McLaren F1, even; it just translated very well to motorsports, but it was never the original intent when the project started.

I am trying to avoid one horse races. What is the point of a game with 1000 cars if you can only ever use a handful of them competitively? No point that's what. You might as well play one of the smaller racing games that cater to a certain type of car better.

Seeing as how GT5: Prologue degenerated into a 2 (maybe 3) horse race in nearly all levels of PP... it wouldn't be surprising if it happened again. Some cars will just never be competitive.

Um, because Toyota always intended on using the GT4 as a commercial passenger car where as the R390 is a token "no one actually owns one car" so they could enter an extreme racing series?

And right here should be the hint about your thoughts on the Ford GT being wrong.

The point of this thread was to discuss the air restrictor fail, and to maybe share with you all how to defeat it. I didn't tell you how I did it at first because you need to understand the issue before you can understand what I'm up to.

A tip: if you want people to understand the issue, don't drip feed it to them. Lay the entire issue out so that they can understand; I knew what you were talking about, I've been experimenting with the limiter lately, but others might not realize. Heck, some people still don't know why their PP levels change once they get into a car they haven't touched since 1.06...

I'll admit it's annoying we can't limit both HP and PP (and, as I've said numerous times, separating tire choice from PP was silly as well), but I'm not that concerned because whenever I do host, my primary limitation is PP first. It works better than an HP/kg limit for putting people on roughly even playing fields, while still allowing a respectable amount of diversity. PP seems to be based on more than just peak numbers, because max-tuning and then limiting the car to the original HP definitely still gives it a higher PP rating on account of the torque.

 

[Ghost Rydor]

I'll admit it's annoying we can't limit both HP and PP (and, as I've said numerous times, separating tire choice from PP was silly as well), but I'm not that concerned because whenever I do host, my primary limitation is PP first. It works better than an HP/kg limit for putting people on roughly even playing fields, while still allowing a respectable amount of diversity. PP seems to be based on more than just peak numbers, because max-tuning and then limiting the car to the original HP definitely still gives it a higher PP rating on account of the torque.
Last edited by SlipZtrEm; Today at 2:24 AM.

Yep PP "can" work better then Hp/kg and I don't use weight at all because I want to keep peoples car options open. But there are many instances where using just PP falls on its face. Cars that have big differences between Hp and PP. Take my V8 Vantage for example. 768Hp and only 566pp. Most any car with this much pp will destroy it. It weighs 1487kg and it does not like corners. But If I say you cant go over both we end up with a whole field of equally competitive car. Note some tracks favour some cars a little more then others but I tend to stick to tracks with a bit of everything in them.

Try it, use a car that is not artificially limited though that way everyone gets a wider selection of cars to use. I mean it will work both ways but you might as well kill two birds with one stone right?

[Actually, one car should probably have an advantage over another in a straight line, depending on how well coefficient of drag is modeled/QUOTE]

I actually didn't think drag was modeled in this game? Gravity and down force but no air resistance. I know you can draft but that doesn't mean it also comes with the code for all the physics of Earth, or does it? I read on here once that someone determined there was no drag in Gt5?

They would have needed scale models for all the cars then tested them in a air tunnel and I'm not sure miniaturization works in replicating aerodynamics? That or the figures from the man but some of these cars were built before there ever was wind tunnels. I don't know, you tell me?

 

[RobGT81]

Indeed but realistic too, just because a car has a ton of power doesnt make it competitive. Some cars will suit some tracks too, the Elise's will give some cars a run for their money on the tighter tracks. Not sure what this thread is about to honest, people can tell the difference between a road and race car. The Ford GT was always built as a road car, its only the last few years people have started racing it in GT1/2.

 

[Ghost Rydor]

Perhaps another thing I also should have pointed out as to why the air restrictor breaks multiplayer is because previously your cars HP could only be reduced by so much and things like N/a tune were permanant. This keep cars in the HP bracket they should be in instead of letting people spam them against cars with less ability.

I should take this moment to point out another imbalance in that say a car with 500 factory hp will out handle a car maxed at 300 in a 300hp limit race. This makes one guys ride on the edge and the other in the boredom zone. So another reason why trying to race grossly detuned vehicles is a exploit.

 

[RobGT81]

Needs a test doing to see what the effects are. Perhaps use a car without mods and get a lap time, then tune it up and restrict the power back down to standard and see what the difference is.

 

[ghostrider135]

Ok ill let the Celica and Imprezza slip just as they came from the factory in numerous guises but I still maintain that if the rules were to prevent poeple racing these 'specials' in certain rooms there would be no point having them in the game to start with.

Further to add take James Glickenhause as an example he had a car built based on the Ferrari 330 P3 what is to stop other weathy sods from going to the likes of Mr Nissan and asking for a car to be built for a sizeable chuck of wedge, Weather its a 1 off or a limited production car the likelihood is it will be road legal henceforth it will be classed as a roadcar all be it a jolly fast one

 

[Ghost Rydor]

Needs a test doing to see what the effects are. Perhaps use a car without mods and get a lap time, then tune it up and restrict the power back down to standard and see what the difference is.

Provided the driver can handle the extra torque the effects are obvious. The guy making the max power limit the whole rev range doesn't have to wait till his engine revs up to reach max power, its making it already. That means he won't bog like an identical car with a natural power/torque curve and same max power. Faster off the mark faster to get to the next gear. Like slipstream said its reflected in the pp as that will be higher in the air restricted car.

I came here to get the word out so I don't have to explain it to every poor sob who comes into my lobby and maybe offer a bit of hope to those who have had enough of online antics.
It would be nice if one day if I could visit someone elses lobby who knew wtf the deal was or at least couldn't deny it if it became common knowledge!

 

[danben7]

I think I'll be joining some of your races. They sound good.

 

[MindlessRiff]

The only thing that grinds my gears with the air restrictor is people using LMP/Group C cars in races intended for GT/Touring cars in rooms with a up limit of about 400-500. The LMPs are just so much faster at the same Hp and weight. PP doesn't make much odds either, tune it down and go!

IMO just limit the amount you can limit by (lol) to like 25% or so instead of 50, because a 400hp LMP car just seems like madness to me... Either this or allow PP AND Hp/weight restrictions at the same time, or restrict downforce or at least the option to, it could get a bit messy but we need these options!

 

[Ghost Rydor]

Ok ill let the Celica and Imprezza slip just as they came from the factory in numerous guises but I still maintain that if the rules were to prevent poeple racing these 'specials' in certain rooms there would be no point having them in the game to start with.

By that logic if a hole in the game allows you to cheat in any way shape or form that would be ok?
You seem like the sought of person who turns up in my lobby can't use his one better then everyone (illegal) car, swears at me then leaves. Just saying. This is not the thread for you!

 

[Ghost Rydor]

I think I'll be joining some of your races. They sound good.

Cool, I mostly race with Aussies so the connection will be good.

 

[OK8]

The thing about OLR is if you try to get others to conform to how you like to play, you'll find yourself eventually playing with yourself.

Sorry if I'm going a bit off topic here, but GrimSinn has a great point.

With so many cars in the game there's many ways to play also. I respect that people want to drive cars they're most comfortable with but my problem is that often I find myself handicapping myself tremendously against everyone else just to make racing fun. Often this means going out on rubbish tyres while others are using racing softs and mad downforce.

Thank god for shuffle races.

 

[arora]

I came here to get the word out so I don't have to explain it to every poor sob who comes into my lobby and maybe offer a bit of hope to those who have had enough of online antics.
It would be nice if one day if I could visit someone elses lobby who knew wtf the deal was or at least couldn't deny it if it became common knowledge!

I'm pretty sure it is common knowledge tbh. So it would be nice if one day you could join anothers lobby and they ran the races with regulations to suit you rather then them? Hmmmm

 

[ghostrider135]

By that logic if a hole in the game allows you to cheat in any way shape or form that would be ok?
You seem like the sought of person who turns up in my lobby can't use his one better then everyone (illegal) car, swears at me then leaves. Just saying. This is not the thread for you!

How is it classed as a cheat dude that I don't quite get, For me a road car constitutes road legal as said before it doesn't matter if they only made 1 or 10 or a million if its road legal then it should still be allowed, The underlying fact is that numerous cars that have been produced come fitted with race derived technology, So by your logic that eradicates such cars too right ?

 

[Ghost Rydor]

I'm pretty sure it is common knowledge tbh. So it would be nice if one day you could join anothers lobby and they ran the races with regulations to suit you rather then them? Hmmmm

You obvisouly don't get it yet. The regs don't suit me they suit everyone.

How is it classed as a cheat dude that I don't quite get, For me a road car constitutes road legal as said before it doesn't matter if they only made 1 or 10 or a million if its road legal then it should still be allowed, The underlying fact is that numerous cars that have been produced come fitted with race derived technology, So by your logic that eradicates such cars too right ?

It has already been explained.

GrimSinn
The thing about OLR is if you try to get others to conform to how you like to play, you'll find yourself eventually playing with yourself.

Sorry if I'm going a bit off topic here, but GrimSinn has a great point.

Also, already been covered, and its not a problem. There will always be a few strands of humanity who want a fair race. Thats all I'm offering. If you think somehow it makes it biased towards me then you don't get it yet either.


I wouldn't be accumulating players who come back night after night if they thought I was taking advantage of them. Also I would win every race, I think I won one race last night? But you see I don't care if I don't come first I just want a legitimate shot at it and a close race without some scrub one upping the field. Its not clever. Its not like I don't own the exact same car. Everytime someone comes into my lobby and its full of cars that are clearly less then awesome and the noob pulls out a fringe or a racecar I lose a little more respect for the human race.

 

[arora]

I wouldn't be accumulating players who come back night after night if they thought I was taking advantage of them.

If you are accumulating so many players then why are you wasting time posting here?

 

[ghostrider135]

Race car derived technology has not once been brought up in this thread other than by me, So I put it to you that if said car uses such technology is that classed as a cheat to you in the game ?

 

[Ghost Rydor]

If you are accumulating so many players then why are you wasting time posting here?

Come on guy! Try reading what I've wrote already.

Race car derived technology has not once been brought up in this thread other than by me, So I put it to you that if said car uses such technology is that classed as a cheat to you in the game ?
Today 4:47 AM

Sorry you are getting the wrong idea. My fault, poor choice of words. Replace cheat with loophole and I was referring to your saying the R390 road car was fine cause it said road in the name. Which we have covered already.

 

[c7mpr]

The issue of road car or not is a mute point. Cars like the Nissan R390 and Toyota GT one were built to homologate the race cars and allow them to race. Both if I recall correctly only had 1 road version built because thats all the homologation regulations require. To therefore call these production cars is a complete misnomer they are hand built specials that are road legal.

 

[GTP_roadrunner]

These cars like the r390 and nsx prototype road car are RACE CARS! If it has adjustable front aero it's a RACE CAR!

Then do have a look at the aero-settings for your Opera Performance S2k, if you have one...

 

[Ghost Rydor]

^^Thankyou!

It is completely irrelevent just a side note.

Anyway using HP and PP inconjuction nets some very close races. I've had a couple of 10 lap races at Eiger Nordwand short track, with mandatory pit and had only 7 seconds between first and second and thats with heavy damage,max penalties and some random I had never meet or raced before.

Now remember I give them my specs and they only need to match one as long as the other is under.
I have to stress that it works because my car is near max output so there is plenty of scope for others to compensate through air restrictors, bigger engines and better handling cars.
If you piss around trying to tweak your car to be exactly the same spec as mine you will gain no advantage. It just means you are matching my performance with a similar weight/torque vehicle. Everyone still stays in the same performance envelope.
Like I said it works flawlessly it just takes awhile to explain it to newbies although some people get it straight away. They can see that weight and torque are still variable which is why no one can gain an advantage.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

There's a decent bit of stupid going on in here... (Ford GT not being a road car for example. R390 definitely doesn't qualify as a proper road car but the GT is no less a road car than an Enzo or 430 Scuderia)

That said, PP restriction = suddenly the power restrictor isn't god. It's nice to have about a 5% choke just so power is a bit more useable but more and you gain too much PP for the power you have. It also results in much more interesting car combinations and some extremely good fights when paired with a tire restriction (Sports soft ftw).

Also of note is that the PP system does give a "hit" to those cars with extra grip to an extent (or at least those disadvantaged in terms of overall grip are allowed a better PWR). Again, more interesting racing as a result (Also, the lower the tire grade is, the harder the less grippy cars get hit in corners, preventing them from being excessively quick at most tracks).

 

[marshy10156]

I think the main problem here is when doing road cars racing in the GAME is that cars with front end downforce will almost always win. When ever I join a road cars lobby I expect there to be nothing in there with front end downforce especially if the lobby regulations aren't set by PP as 2 cars at 600bhp/1000kg but one has downforce and the other doesn't it's pretty apparent who is going to win and by some margin (Nissan R390 in a road car room for instance).

Also just adding to an earlier comment where it is mentioned that drag co-efficient isn't included in the game, I think it is implemented on certain cars otherwise why does an FGT and Suzuki Escudo only make it to 235mph and 200mph respectively where as a LMP car with roughly the same max power and power/weight can make it to 250+mph?

 

[arora]

Come on guy! Try reading what I've wrote already.

I've tried my best, this is what I've come up with...

After a page or so of cat in the hat tricks your revelation of the power limiter is revealed, everyone already knows what it does. Using the pp system does not make for fair racing, again known. You don't like people using a homologate in your lobby because you see it as an unfair advantage. Is that pretty close so far?

You have come up with an idea to level the playing field to make for better online racing, it apears to be a rough guide for handicaping cars imo 👍

All the other condensending crap about "you guys don't get it" "you guys are starting to get it" Oh noooo I still don't get it, etc is lame.

If you have come up with a way to find fair racing then good for you, personally seems alot of to do about nothing. I race in public lobbies all the time, if I start a room I state rules as a guideline and we're off and running, usually have a good time. If it's anothers room, I try to follow not only his regs but also the spirit in which he intended the lobby.

 

[Ghost Rydor]

Then do have a look at the aero-settings for your Opera Performance S2k, if you have one...

There are many things that if a car has it is deemed a race car. They don't have to have all of them just one.
Having a number slapped on your car means its a race car, adjustable front downforce means its a race car, every car I've seen with a roll cage bar the Speed 12 are deemed racecars. (may be more?)If the car was purpose built for the track from scratch, thats a pretty sure bet (R390).
Its not been easily defined in this game its more like a line written in water, first you gotta make it then you have to try and keep track of it.

If only there was a racecar reg....

You don't like people using a homologate in your lobby because you see it as an unfair advantage. Is that pretty close so far?

No wrong. You should go before you hurt yourself.

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

Ohhhh, he's talking about the HP limiter, I think.

OP writes like a drama queen. Is there an X-Files fanfic you're writing that you should be getting back to now, Ghost Rydor?