American Muscle (Week 2): Seattle (w/ Results)

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Casio
Just checking, and since when did the Cuda get $19,400 of HP upgrades and $26,000 of Non-HP?! That's enough for a Supercharger or NA II, and then some. And enough for Full custom tranny, suspension and other things including wieght reduction on quite a light car! (My car still wieghts over that, with it's wieght reduction :sick: )
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The Cuda needs that much in upgrades, sadly. It just can't rival any of the other cars without them, and even then, it's still having trouble. I'm not saying I'm the best driver in this series(HAHA FAR FROM IT!!!) But I consider myself a decent driver. I have my good and bad laps, but I can't even get close to those splits in the Cuda, a car I've mastered driving fully tuned and on sports mediums.
 
Casio
How can racing brakes not be a good idea? Even if it allows you to brake 5 metres later on some corners that's still a car length gained! Even on the slower corners, you might be able to brake 1 metre later and over a whole lap that adds up.

Personally, I think a few people might of gone HP mad, especially the people who brought superchargers. Anything pushing out over 600 HP on Sports Mediums was always going to struggle getting all that power to the road.

I only spent 6000$ on HP upgrades and transfered the rest over to Non-HP, as such, I'm barely putting out 500HP (503, from memory). However, having 500HP and Sports Softs means I'm getting great traction into and out of corners.

Just checking, and since when did the Cuda get $19,400 of HP upgrades and $26,000 of Non-HP?! That's enough for a Supercharger or NA II, and then some. And enough for Full custom tranny, suspension and other things including wieght reduction on quite a light car! (My car still wieghts over that, with it's wieght reduction :sick: )

I think we all know what car everybody will be choosing at half way :sly: . (I'll be taking the Shelby Mustang G.T. 350R, no one has taken it yet, that baby is mine 👍 )
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Have you tested the racing brakes?? In my tests at the big oval I found that the feet it takes to go from 100-0 is the same as without racing brakes. The whole point of racing brakes isn't to stop faster its to stop more times without brake fade. Well I hate to tell you but PD didn't program brake fade into this game. Therefor making brakes useless. My brother is a little more knowledgeable in this subject if I cannot explain clearly enough.

I'll admit I went HP mad acually I went TQ mad. My Cuda is making 905TQ around 2500-3000RPM but thats what racing big snarling muscle,sports,pony cars from the 60's-70's is all about. I'm sorry the Cuda takes a lot of money to get where it is. however to contradict myselt I will admit I picked this car because it had so much money alloted. Now that I have driven it I will admit the times Jetboys427 and I are turning are a little rediculous. I've given out what my car has on it. Maybe for a future the Superbird and the Cuda should loose a little money to make it more even ehh?

The cuda has a ton of money alloted but as Darkwind states the cuda needs help these cars could be a LITTLE more even i agree but Koly and Jump did a great first step and I applod them for getting this thing going. I thhink maybe we should think of some new rules for the 2nd half...The aero should be out but I know the bird doesn't get it anyway so that wouldn't affect him and maybe the supercharger should be gone because it creates a torque monster.
 
Don't worry, I'm giving up the Bird after week four... I'm going back into the shadows with my GTO... :lol: This is fun, but mopping the floor isn't.
 
goixoye
Just Curious....??????

I've read some posts where folks seem to indicate when they tap a wall they quit and start over. If I did that I'd spend all my time quitting / restarting. I just keep going, learning the course a little better I suppose....and making sure I don't get ahead of the ghost and wind up with a dirty ghost. I guess the rest of the lap is kind of a waste and maddening if you really nail the lap except where you made contact. How does everybody else do this?....kind of curious about peoples theories. I probably get 5 or 6 clean laps out of 20, if I'm lucky maybe one great one (by my standards of course).
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I too continue running a lap if I hit a wall. I don't care if I spin in circles :irked: , I keep going and try to run the rest of the lap as I would if it was a clean lap. If I happen to be beating an unsaved ghost, I slow down before the final corners and let the ghost pass me then continue on making sure that I am carring full speed at the start/ finish line. I feel I get in a much better flow, by not quitting / restarting when I hit a wall or go off track :ouch: , if I just continue running laps. 👍 👍

New splits

T1 20.853

T2 1'07.680

This is it for the Chevelle :irked: Instead of trying to find a couple of .100's , I'am going to start testing to see what changes I can make at the halfway point so that I can run with the leaders. :D
 
Yeah, I'm with Jetboys on this one, I chose the Vette the same day that Nat told me about the series the first day I met her. And my buddy Bbinnell440 didn't ask me what car I chose for hte series, he asked me WHICH VETTE did I choose.....so I'm stickin with my mean machine here. I WUV ME VETTES! ;). But man is this not just the greatest series ever? I really hope that when we do it next time we can learn from our 'trial run' here and everyone can put in their 2 cents about upgrading and such as many of us have many MANY miles under our belt in the GT series 👍 . But I may tinker again with my upgrades for the Vette, like maybe getting a spoiler, after SO many cars didn't accept a spoiler I stopped trying and I never tried it on the Vette. So we'll see.

jump_ace
 
Well to throw in my 2 cents, I'm loving the series, but I will admit that before things 'kicked off' I had second thoughts about the 'Cuda, 'Vettes, Superbird and Shelby.

The 'Cuda because it appeared so damn weak and I think in many hands it still is.
The 'Vettes, because I knew they weren't really muscle cars and were strong in the right hands.
The Superbird because I knew it has awesome potential.

The 'mistake' I made was thinking that the Bird would be too much to handle for most if not all people, and would therefore be at a disadvantage ... I didn't imagine someone like Jet' taming her so easily :p

The 'Vette is too strong, the Shelby too weak .. it may be a hair in either direction, but I think it's a fair comment.

The 'Cuda I'm still wondering about ... I stand by my testing that it's a 'weak' car ... unless, as we can see, you know how to get the most out of it.

That being said, I suspect that a lot of the muscle cars are this way ... they require perfect tuning and gentle handling to get the most out of them and the 'Cuda and Superbird at the top of the leaderboard right now deserve to be there ... it takes a lot to make those cars that fast.

The Shelby and Vette easily run that quickly, but it was the Shelby I penalized the most.

I'd like to take stock half way through the series and take some input from the entire group of racers regarding what we should do to tighten the field even more ... I think that would be a valuable adjustment ... but I don't want to suddenly spoil the fun for anyone. Let me know how you feel in this regard, guys.

As it is, I'm enjoying the series and the cars ... I think it's very, very true that there can be a tendency to add too much HP and it's too easy to buy the wrong non-HP parts ... but then, isn't that what this is all about?

I've learned so much in just 2 damn weeks :)
 
I also think that the problem may not be the cars alloted money, which I think is done every well and evenly, which couldn't of been easy considering the large variety of cars to choose from.

A factor that can not be taken in consideration is driver skill. Even you get them all the run X-Time in B-Spec, there are drivers who will take that same car and run it 4 seconds quicker, and driver that will only run it 2 seconds quicker.

The only way to get around this would be to allocate money individually on the basis of skill level/speed and car selection. Obviously this is far to complicated and problematic to even consider.

But looking at the split times, maybe the problem is with peoples part selection. Not including the fastest time, there is little over 2 seconds difference between T1 times, pretty close if you ask me. But by T2, the difference has blown out to 10 seconds. The T1 - T2 run contains a large straight which would help the people who have a lot of HP. Also, I don't know about anyone else, but in my car (The heaviest one of the lot), I have to brake quite a time before the T2 split, in the lighter cars, maybe you guys can brake after it, making the difference look a lot greater than it really it.

Or I could be wrong...
 
Casio, you speak accurately. There is a lot here that comes down to driver skill, style, and the parts selected. I know, for sure, that I could have picked my parts more wisely ... perhaps a touch less HP and a 1.5 LSD, for starters, ditch the suspension and go with tires, that sort of thing. Aside form that, my skill is certainly below many other drivers and I expect to finish further down the field, even if the car is exactly the same (heck, look at the Superbird week at Infineon! I was appalling there).

Add to this the vagrancies of the track ... like you said, some cars need more braking time and I would expect this to make a difference on some tracks more than others.

Driver skill, aprts chosen, the track ... these are things I can't take into consideration and - to be honest - I don't want to ... the whole point of the series is to pick a car and have fun in it ... maybe your skill might not measure up to someone else's with the same car, maybe it will, maybe you'll pick the wrong parts ... but if you can learn from the experience and have fun doing so, then I'm a happy camper.
 
T1 : 23.206
T2 : 1' 13.448

I would like to get 3 1/2 more secs off these, but will be dang happy just for 1/2 a sec.
 
Kolyana, I've got new times for you.
T1 = 0'19.941 T2 = 1'06.401
Had a best sector one time of 0'19.872 ... but couldn't hold her steady over those ^$*%ing railroad tracks. I also feel like I could bring down my sector two time by about a second, maybe a second and a quarter. Much more time off than that, and I start to play with the two leading Moh-paahs and I only have 401 lb./ft. and 396 horsepower. The Corvette is infinitely more tossable though, it transitions left to right predictably and smoothly. I don't need or use any computer controlled driving aids either. My brother cannot drive the 'Cuda very well if those are turned off.

I'm open to not only sharing what I've done to my car, I'm perfectly fine with displaying my settings. I have nothing to hide and I'd rather help those who need it. My power upgrades are as follows: Oil change, *cough* carburetor tuning *cough* (GT4 lists it as "computer chip"), and the semi-racing exhaust.

As for the non-power upgrades: Wing, semi-racing flywheel, carbon driveshaft, sports suspension, soft sports tires, and stage 1 weight reduction.

Height: 114/127
Shocks: 9/6
Camber: 3°/2.5°
Driving Aids: 0/0/0
Downforce: 30/30
Ballast: 0/0

I took GeeTeye's advice about increasing rear camber and it worked for me. So a big thank you to him for that bit of information. Before, I would adjust camber to the full-race suspension's default setting of 2°/1° or would increase both 150% to the tune of 3°/1.5°

Driving Aids are user specific. With these settings the car doesn't really need anything, except for a 1 on TCS. Having it set to a 1, is just enough to keep the stock posi-traction unit in check. If you can catch & hold a car that is a touch tail happy when the throttle is applied mid-turn, turn all driver aids off. I noticed that rear camber helped the rear end bite in that same situation. When I had 2° F and 1° R, I started off with TCS on 1. After adjusting the camber, I did not need TCS anymore.

In reality, the 1969 Corvette doesn't need any power upgrades aside from the oil change. As I mentioned before, the car is gearing limited. Either more power, or more efficient transfer of the stock power, via a clutch, flywheel & driveshaft, will accomplish the same thing; they'll spin the engine towards redline quicker.

For the price of my semi-racing exhaust setup, I could have gotten the twin-plate clutch, more than enough clutch for the circumstances. For the cost of the computer chip I could have gotten the lightest flywheel made. I like my tires sticky. My daily driven Rabbit wears the new Falken Azenis RT615s and it's far from stock. I would gander that I am at or just barely over 1 lateral-G of acceleration in that car. I can take cloverleaf offramps at 55+ MPH.

As far as making cars as equal as they can possibly be, it's a daunting task and you might not like doing it, but you've got to set the usable parts and set restrictions. "No this." "Stage 1 of that." "No power upgrades for chassis T and I." Stuff like that. I have a memory card of cars that would fall under NASA spec racing rules. I have made VVC (Vette-Viper Challenge), CMC (Camaro-Mustang Challenge), GTI-Cup (Rabbit 'Golf' GTi's) and Spec Miata (exactly as it sounds). Each of these groups are built to very fine specification and are very competitive.

I had my B-Spec driver take the CMC cars around Sears Point for 15-20 laps and took notes of the best lap times. My 5 CMC cars are between 1'46 and 1'48. My 9 CMCU (for unlimited) cars are between 1'33 and 1'37. Not bad, considering that my B-Spec driver was still learning. I'd like to get my B-Spec driver to 100/100/100 so there's no margin for learning error, and see what can be done with those 14 cars.
 
Very nice time, seems like you spent your money wisely.

No more podiums for me.
 
New times for the Corvette:
T1 = 0'19.772 T2 = 1'06.643
So even though my section one time is lower, I missed bettering my previous sector 2 time, but my overall time got better so I'll take it. That just means I race against the new ghost and try to duplicate the mid-19 second T1 time while not making mistakes so I can get myself into the 1'05s for T2 and take my final time down at the same time.
 
Wow that T1 is just flyin dude! Nice work! So looking at your splits u just nailed T1, but your T2 is off pace, is it the tracks just after T1 that r messing u up? Perhaps I could email ya my replay or something to help ya out. I think the vette does fine with no tcs in this series, just keep your throttle under half way while over the tracks and concentrate on positioning your car for that 90 degree left and floor it once u KNOW ur over the tracks and if u do it right u should be shifting into 3rd just as u come out of the turn and u'll FEEL it for sure, I did. Have a good one and no stealing the podium from me either...lol. And yeah u really know ur stuff about cars, where litterally ALL I know is from the GT series, so u kinda lost me there for a bit, but that is fine :dunce: . I just enjoy trying to balance the (my) limit in this car, especially taking some laps at Tsukuba, what a trip and I can't wait for that week!

jump_ace
 
Good Job Jetbirds427 I can't seem to get the cuda's rear end to hold tight. Good work Jet your superbird is super...or maybe your bird cursed my cuda. If anyone has some advice to help a cuda out I can't seem to get under a 20.5 for the first sector I think I broke the cuda when I got the 19.6. Thanks all
Bry
 
Thanks Bryan, but I don't think there is any cursing going on, because I think my memory card would have *magically* erased itself, or at least sold my car somehow... :lol:
 
That sector one time is accomplished by braking straight and early before the left-right kink at the end of the front stretch. Downshift into third while braking, upshift into fourth as you enter the kink. On my hottest run, I was at 103 MPH before slamming on the brakes and downshifting into second to make the left-hander. From there, it's an awful lot of: A) mashing the throttle, B) keeping the car pointed straight, and C) cutting corners so close you could barely squeeze a dime between the car and the railing.

jump_ace
... is it the tracks just after T1 that r messing u up?
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Yes, those tracks have messed me up ever since I took off traction control. They're slick and they upset the balance of the car, especially since we all have decently (outrageous for some of us) powerful RWD vehicles. The tracks and that railing 'lip' that sticks out ever so slightly on the outside exit of the 90° L turn after the tracks have caused a good number of restarts. I'll also sometimes botch the first right-hander after the climb up the back straight. Either there or the 90° L in front of some grandstands, just before the sector two timer; that's where I miffed my run after the 19.772 section one time.

jump_ace
Perhaps I could email ya my replay or something to help ya out. I think the vette does fine with no tcs in this series, just keep your throttle under half way while over the tracks and concentrate on positioning your car for that 90 degree left ...
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Thanks a ton for the offer, I think I'm good now though. I'll try out your throttle suggestion. I was in 2nd gear mashing the throttle over the tracks before, that causes the rear end to get all bent out of shape and sometimes it's uncatchable. The only way to take them in that manner, is to be totally perpendicular to the tracks so you're over them as quickly as possible. Many times I would end up looping the car in front of SafeCo field. Oh well, I'm an Oakland Athletics fan. I have no problems doing donuts in the Mariner's faces :D

Has anyone else noticed that you can go faster down the hills with TCS turned off? When TCS is active and you get airborne, the throttle essentially gets shunted. If TCS is off, the tachometer spins to the rev limiter and you end up landing with your wheels smoking, but you end up going faster. With TCS enabled I land at 100 MPH. When it's off, I can pick up an additional 10 MPH or so when I land.
 
63AvantiR3
Has anyone else noticed that you can go faster down the hills with TCS turned off? When TCS is active and you get airborne, the throttle essentially gets shunted. If TCS is off, the tachometer spins to the rev limiter and you end up landing with your wheels smoking, but you end up going faster. With TCS enabled I land at 100 MPH. When it's off, I can pick up an additional 10 MPH or so when I land.
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Took me by surprise, too. I tested it and when you stay in third, it's slower than being in fourth and spinning like crazy when you land.

My method of going over the tracks with no TCs is not being perpendicular, although that helps, I'm just going nice and smooth and nearly coasting over them.

My new splits are 20.102/1'05.551 - no TCS.

I want that third spot!
 
T1: 20. 521
T2: 109.437

Im done for the week...giving my final time...IDC.
Later
 
I just can't find a sweet spot with this Cuda. I've tried almost every level of TCS, altered the tranny, changed weight distribution, EVERYTHING, and this car is still running 1'15.xxx T2s... Was a blast throwing the car around this track however. I feel a little less rage now.
 
Well I hope for your sake Kenny u nailed the last sector. Which u probably did, but I'm kinda more concerned about making the "jump" to D1 so my time has been submitted. Nice times this week everyone!


jump_ace
 
New Splits for Me: Yeah

21:625
1:10:479

Not going to get much better
 
So I'm posting about 8 hours early [que McDonald's theme song] Ba da da da daaaa I'm OVER IT!

Time 1= 0'19.772
Time 2= 1'06.643
Final = 1'40.929 ƒu_k it!

I am through trying to blow away my ghost time. I was in the zone for one glorious moment that didn't even last a lap. I rocketed through T1 but T2 raped me. Since then I have been ahead of and behind my ghost time, but no matter what looks like a good run, God strikes me down and causes a spin, a slide, I nail a wall.... sum ting! I hit summm ting!

So far as I know I got the best T1 of the C3s but the worst T2. Maybe my high 1'40 is enough to place in the middle?

Laguna Seca has been around since GT2 so we all should be familiar with it. I thoroughly enjoy it because it's about 2 hours south of me and I've been there for ALMS 4 times. In a few weeks, I'll be going for the 5th time. The first ALMS race weekend I attended was 9/7 - 9/9. 9/11/01 was two days later.

Sears Point (Infineon) is close to 2 hours north of me. I've been there for 4 ALMS weekends starting in 2002. I've ridden around it for about 6 NASA HPDE sessions and have driven my Rabbit GTi on it for my own NASA HPDE day. I ran 3 sessions myself, I missed my final one because of a broken throttle cable. Each session is about 20 minutes. To say I'm familiar with the beautiful track nestled in "Wine Country, California" is an understatement.

Pictures of my track day are here: http://images.miller-motorsports.com/sears082204/ I'm wearing the Corvette Racing shirt tending to my car. The Pro-7 (first generation RX-7) is my friend's car, the Lincoln Mark VIII is his brother's car.

Because of experience at the tracks, if anyone wants help driving the line, I'll make my replays available early. I've got a sharkport so I can e-mail individual replays if need-be.
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Kolyana
Rules:
Discuss only T-times.
Clean OLR Standards:
No wall touching.
The enitire course is considered part of the track; sidewalks, rumble strips and all (just stay off the walls).
No hybrids
No Cheating of any kind
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Hey guys I'm with my brother its 4:15am PST and I've done my best and worst all tonight but I can never put my t1 best with my t2 best together so thats all she wrote for this track however the cuda will live on. I was in the T1 19.1ish and the T2 1:03.2ish. Jet I dunno how you did it your REALLY fast with that bird. I give you my early congrats on this track. well I'm posting my last time for this track. night all I'm headed to Monteray to tackle the twists of a Laguna Seca
T1 - 19.660
T2 - 1:04.305
Overall - 1:37.730
Bryan

P.S. I guess I didn't do bad for a new guy anyway :)
 
Obivously, their is some misinterpretation of the phrase "Discuss only T-times". Maybe it should be made more clear....

Just so you new folks know, you are not allowed to discuss or post your final time, at anytime! Even if you have already submitted.

(However, looking at them makes my time look awful....)
 
Casio
Obivously, their is some misinterpretation of the phrase "Discuss only T-times". Maybe it should be made more clear....Just so you new folks know, you are not allowed to discuss or post your final time, at anytime! Even if you have already submitted. (However, looking at them makes my time look awful....)
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Just so the new folks know final times are supposed to be private messaged (PM) to Kolyana. I thought maybe folks weren't aware of the proper mechanism for submitting times.
 
63AvantiR3
Sears Point (Infineon) is close to 2 hours north of me. I've been there for 4 ALMS weekends starting in 2002. I've ridden around it for about 6 NASA HPDE sessions and have driven my Rabbit GTi on it for my own NASA HPDE day. I ran 3 sessions myself, I missed my final one because of a broken throttle cable. Each session is about 20 minutes. To say I'm familiar with the beautiful track nestled in "Wine Country, California" is an understatement.

Pictures of my track day are here: http://images.miller-motorsports.com/sears082204/ I'm wearing the Corvette Racing shirt tending to my car. The Pro-7 (first generation RX-7) is my friend's car, the Lincoln Mark VIII is his brother's car.
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Man, I need to get into something like this ... buy myself a little second car and just throw her around a local racetrack from time to time.

I'm really surprised how many guys appear (in the photos) to be using a regular street car ... and then taping up the lights and such. Seems to be asking for some dents, scratches and such to your pride and joy.

(I've also PMed both brothers regarding the PMing of times, but thanks for raising the issue guys).
 
The nasa track days are very safe. I've only yet seen a hand full street car get into any accidents and only one big accident and it wasn't even his street car he trailored it there with a suv. However it was sad to see a brand new Lancer get rolled back onto 4 tires and towed to the trailor. But secondly I'm sorry to thoes I've offended with posting on the main board but I really don't care if you know my final times but Jet kinda explained to me why you do it. so Koly and everyone else sorry for the mixup I'll PM it for Laguna.
Bryan
 
No one offended 92' no worries ... just OLR/WRS protocol to avoid anyone who hasn't submitted their time suddenly knowing what they need to beat ;)

Posting results in the next couple of minutes.
 
Damned imageshack is playing up at the moment ... give me a second so I can post the images.

Ah, to be hosting my own site again.
 
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