Any of you dumped PD's GT for good? I need a bit of a push...

[FosterG]

If you think GT6 has a good track list, pCARS will blow your mind.....

I've seen it, and it is awesome, things like this force the hand of the competitive and that is a good thing.

 

[maciej908]

I always thought GT was the greatest racing franchise but in the last three weeks my mind completely changed. My cousin had Forza 4 on his Xbox 360 and after few days of playing I honestly wished I had that game. So I decided to get Forza 5 and the Xbox One. I've already bought the game (SteelBook Limited Edition ) but I'm planning to buy the console on Monday (I know backwards haha).

One of the things that made me change my mind? The level of detail and how every single car really deserves to be in the game + there are no pointless duplicates. The biggest single thing that made me change my mind however? Sounds!!! I'm that kind of player that would rather have great sounds over great graphics...

For the last four years I trusted the Japanese guy to change many things: sounds, damage model, etc. But nothing changed...

 

[430_Riviera]

Simultaneous for me, over the years GT has lost it's way though, and therefore I have lost it and this is the first generation I haven't purchased both consoles to play both titles. As alluded to by others, Horizon is a diamond in the rough and where there is real potential for blockbuster innovation, I await Horizon 2 with baited breath and a fistful of pre order. Motorsport is a solid franchise, in my pure opinion far more involving than GT is these days. However I am a builder of custom vehicles in real life, so I find the extensive customisation and tweaking appealing, more so than the racing. That said, with the right car I can lap Bathurst and Road Atlanta for hours straight, squeezing every thousandth out of the car i can. The DLC for F5 has been great though, having said that it needed to be with the criticism levelled at T10 for the refusal to supplant quality for quantity and pull a GT with older assets in the next generation.

 

[SlyNine]

Assetto Corsa and pCARS are both twice the simulator of GT or Forza, they only lose out when it comes to car list. But I'd take 50 cars with the unique driving feel, sounds and detail of AC over 500 generic cars in Forza. I know it's hard to appreciate until you've experienced AC, but it's just the truth.

In my opinion the op will not be disappointed in Forza 5's physics. I think they are up there with PC sims.

I've experienced both, I'm apparently not as convinced of this PC automatically = best physics. While AC has great physics, they appear more different then better. Just like Iracing vs AC is more different than one being better then the other.

Without any hard facts, objective tests. What are you basing this off of?

As far as Pcars, I'll reserve judgment. In the early days It looked like an arcade game (cars ability to turn, precanned motions for hitting bumps). The development has come along ways and it looks better. So we shall see... But again I don't think anyone will objectively test this game.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

@SlyNine I personally was very disappointed with FM5 physics, cars feel horrible to drive and seem to react very strangely.

I was asking about console games though.

I imagine it is the same AI. It will be interesting to see what Codemasters do next-gen.

 

[SlyNine]

@SlyNine I personally was very disappointed with FM5 physics, cars feel horrible to drive and seem to react very strangely.


I imagine it is the same AI. It will be interesting to see what Codemasters do next-gen.

I don't really care what a game feels like to someone. That's not objective. A lot of people think GT is right because it "feels right", even when its obviously (objectively) wrong.

If you want to help the OP make a better decision about his purchase, perhaps you could explain why it feels wrong and what about them reacts strangely (especially compared to GT).

 

[skazz]

Without any hard facts, objective tests. What are you basing this off of?

As far as Pcars, I'll reserve judgment. In the early days It looked like an arcade game (cars ability to turn, precanned motions for hitting bumps). The development has come along ways and it looks better. So we shall see... But again I don't think anyone will objectively test this game.

Fair point, the relative physics and FFB quality between top PC sims and top console sims is not easy to summarize. Each sim has good and bad points. I'd written that statement after some awesome close racing against a field of 25+ AC AI which really brought home many of the console weaknesses

WMD members (I.e. pCARS backers) have access to the test results from the various handling consultants. When you read incisive negative and positive feedback about the current state of various GT cars on Le Mans in pCARS from someone who just got back from racing at the 24 hours race in a GT car, you start to have faith that they are aiming high and intending to make a sim for real sim fans.

pCARS is in the polish phase now, everything is coming together really nicely. The old Shift floatiness and disconnected feeling is completely eradicated and has been for well over a year, and any track models which were inherited at the start of pCARS have been heavily updated with real affection for the little details which sim racers really want. Good stuff...

 

[phillgt2002]

My GT to FM story.

Parents bought a PS1, played GT2 for almost 3 years.

My brother won a PS2, played GT3 and GT4 RELIGIOUSLY for almost 4-5 years.

My brothers couldn't find a PS3 to surprise me for christmas in 2006, so we had to go with Xbox 360. They got me a 360 and while I had heard of Forza Motorsport, I kind of just dismissed the game because I didn't own an Xbox OG. I first laid hands on the FM series when the FM2 demo came out. I got borderline obsessed with the demo and me and my brother played it constantly. I remember wanting the Wireless Xbox 360 Racing Wheel right when I tried the game.

My brother came in the house with FM2, I put the game into my disc tray with speculation.

My first car in the game was a Volkswagen Corrado. It was all wheel drive and modded slightly since I was so poor on the game. FM2 started my infatuation with modification of cars and while the GT had tuning, FM2 made me more interested because I could see what was going on with my car actively. FM3 came along and I eventually got my friends hooked on the game. FM3 is probably my most played on my Xbox 360 which it deserves. It introduced my friends to a friendly and decently raw car experience. (My friend got so hooked on the game, when I let him borrow it, he tried blackmailing me for it basically. Let's just say I didn't let that happen) FM4 came out and while I logged many hours on it, it failed to catch me like FM2 and FM3 did, but the game is still great. FM4 actually introduced me to video editing due to it's in-game video processing, and as much as I want to bury those absolutely garbage videos, they have a charm.

FM5 is a game that I'm lost on, I don't have a XB1 so I can't play it and I'm confused on what T10 is doing with the game so I'm just going to wait until FM6 to see what they finally change.

I think you should atleast try the FM series, OP.

 

[Fat Tyre]

Just google the car list from F4 or F5 and you'll see the diversity of what's on offer. A great new set of tracks too.


I've since invested in an XB1 and Forza5 and my experience with the franchise just keeps getting better

Do it, take the plunge. You won't regret it

Thank you for your story it was ery helpful. I ended up looking up the cars from FM4 and they even had Porsche! Kaz said that was impossible... Any way thanks I think I'll take the plunge

While I haven't given up on GT, it probably only gets 5% of the attention I give to Forza (and I used to be a huge GT fan). ..


...While I still play it from time to time, the only thing I miss isn't in comparison to Forza - it's what GT used to be and no longer is. Kaz's vision got to big to sustain.

Thank you man, I also miss what GT used to be. I think part of the problem is that Kaz is now racing for real so he no longer cares if his game sucks, he can just go and race the Nurb in a real race car...

Gran Turismo has lost it's soul in my opinion. It used to be about driving and loving cars, getting the best experience out of it. Now it's just a big marketing ploy with VGT and GTA, features that detract from the core of the game; driving. Terrible, abysmal standard car and track quality, horrid sounds, pathetic Ai, it just goes on and on.

Fully agree with that especially the VGT bit I mean seriously Air Jordan designing a car? It is all about branding and marketing, Thank you for your post.

I do have FM5, is it perfect? no, but at it's core it's years better than what GT has to offer. Which really isn't much more than it did in GT1 but pretty.

True that one of the things that bug me the most is that in the tuning section pretty much the only new thing added in 15 years was Nitro and that was just added in GT6, thank you for your reply!

First off, I've been noticing you liking some of my posts in the GT6 section, I hope I won't be accused of swaying you ...

Those likes were because you had the patience to argue and use logical rationale with Tenacious D



Car models in FM4 - not the lighting, just the models - are on par with GT5's Premiums, at least the ones created for FM4, and especially the later DLC ones. FM5's models are even higher quality, but GT6's Adaptive Tesselation means the made-for-GT6 Premiums are PS4-ready.[/QUOTE]


One of the things that made think of going with Forza was how lifelike the models were, I've never seen a photo from GT that made me doubt whether what I was seeing was real or not. Yes they are incredibly detailed but somehow they end up looking cartoonish just like an ultra airbrushed photo of a model somehow looks too perfect to be real...

But right now I wouldn't be contemplating last gen when the next gen is already here. And sadly there's no multi platform wheel for next gen consoles...

So my vote is simple: go PC. There you buy a wheel and it will still be supported until it falls apart.

Assetto Corsa and pCARS are both twice the simulator of GT or Forza, they only lose out when it comes to car list. But I'd take 50 cars with the unique driving feel, sounds and detail of AC over 500 generic cars in Forza. I know it's hard to appreciate until you've experienced AC, but it's just the truth.

Thank you I did think of buying a PC but the problem with that is that the sky is the limit and knowing myself I will try to upgrade it every couple of months and I will never be happy until I can play the games all maxed out. So buying a console is the best option for me... Just one piece of hardware every 5 or 6 years... but yes I agree if want the best in simulation you would need a PC. I am not that great of a driver to be wanting that any way. Thank you for your reply.

Forza 5 is the base for the next generation of Forza titles. It is the Forza 2 of Xbox One. The game has its ups and has its downs, but overall is still a great game with a lot of stuff to be explored. Compared to the direction of PD and Gran Turismo with Standard Cars and GT7 probably not coming out until late 2015 if not 2016, I'd much rather be owning an Xbox One at this stage.

Thanks for your story that was very helpful, I have decided now to get the XBone.

One of the things that made me change my mind? The level of detail and how every single car really deserves to be in the game + there are no pointless duplicates. The biggest single thing that made me change my mind however? Sounds!!! I'm that kind of player that would rather have great sounds over great graphics.

Thanks man, duplicates, pointless cars, standards and sounds were the things I complained the most. I'm getting excited already.

Simultaneous for me, over the years GT has lost it's way though, and therefore I have lost it and this is the first generation I haven't purchased both consoles to play both titles. As alluded to by others, Horizon is a diamond in the rough and where there is real potential for blockbuster innovation, I await Horizon 2 with baited breath and a fistful of pre order. Motorsport is a solid franchise, in my pure opinion far more involving than GT is these days. However I am a builder of custom vehicles in real life, so I find the extensive customisation and tweaking appealing, more so than the racing. That said, with the right car I can lap Bathurst and Road Atlanta for hours straight, squeezing every thousandth out of the car i can. The DLC for F5 has been great though, having said that it needed to be with the criticism levelled at T10 for the refusal to supplant quality for quantity and pull a GT with older assets in the next generation.

Thank you for your reply. I'm already sold, I just have to find a good deal here in Australia which can be hard. I tried to find a Forza 5 bundle and they are at 500 australian dollars with game being a digital download. Call me old fashioned but I prefer having the disc.


Thanks everyone!

 

[SimTourist]

I'd wait out for GT7 to see if Kaz and PD change their attitude and decide then. In the meantime I will enjoy FM5, FH2, FM6 and so on. A lot of questionable stuff in GT5/6 was due to hardware limitations, but a lot was also just poor design, decision making and time/resource management, 8 months later we still have half the features that were advertised for GT6. If this trend continues then I see no reason to go back to GT. Even at this stage the inclusion of standard cars makes me doubt anything is changing. Sure the 20% of content created for PS4 will no doubt look amazing, but the remaining 80% carried over directly from PS2/3 won't and I'm not excited to see assets from year 2000 in a 2015/16 game.

 

[RagingDaemon]

Despite everything that has happened with GT, there is nothing that GT2-6 or any Forza game can do to beat the first Gran Turismo. It doesn't have as many cars or tracks, or better graphics but I don't care. I just don't think Polyphony is hungry anymore. The presentation and music is a big way to get into the mindset of how the people involved with a project were at.

Gran Turismo 1 - Loud, heavy and brash.
It feels like that PD were creating a game to swamp the competition. Aggressive and cool

Gran Turismo 4 - I play jazz piano with my favourite white gloves. Preferably washed first
We can rest on our laurels and drink champagne because our success is guaranteed by this point

Don't misunderstand, I am a musician and I play, listen and enjoy a variety of styles that include jazz and metal.

 

[SimTourist]

Despite everything that has happened with GT, there is nothing that GT2-6 or any Forza game can do to beat the first Gran Turismo. It doesn't have as many cars or tracks, or better graphics but I don't care. I just don't think Polyphony is hungry anymore. The presentation and music is a big way to get into the mindset of how the people involved with a project were at.

Gran Turismo 1 - Loud, heavy and brash.
It feels like that PD were creating a game to swamp the competition. Aggressive and cool

Gran Turismo 4 - I play jazz piano with my favourite white gloves. Preferably washed first
We can rest on our laurels and drink champagne because our success is guaranteed by this point

Don't misunderstand, I am a musician and I play, listen and enjoy a variety of styles that include jazz and metal.

Well, Forza 3/4 had ambient soundtrack and Forza 5 has opera singers. Where does that fit in?)

 

[RagingDaemon]

Haven't played Forza 5 and it has been years since I played 3/4. I'll say this though, you can have a mix and make it work by building tension and release. I don't mind what genre of music it is, it just needs to fit.

 

[SimTourist]

Haven't played Forza 5 and it has been years since I played 3/4. I'll say this though, you can have a mix and make it work by building tension and release. I don't mind what genre of music it is, it just needs to fit.

Who needs music in Forza while in the race? The engine sounds are the music. Turn off the HUD and it's the best experience ever. In GT however I have to either leave the HUD on or drive automatic, because the engine sounds are so terrible at giving cues that I can never manage to shift at the right time, in Forza is works pretty naturally and the rumble triggers start to vibrate when you're reaching the red zone.

 

[RagingDaemon]

I wasn't talking about in race music. I was referring to presentation and music so more specifically, everything else but the actual race, that is where the mood is set before you drive...or whether you turn it off because you don't feel inspired by the game to play it.

 

[SimTourist]

I wasn't talking about in race music. I was referring to presentation and music so more specifically, everything else but the actual race, that is where the mood is set before you drive...or whether you turn it off because you don't feel inspired by the game to play it.

What can be better than a damn orchestra playing before a race lol.

 

[UKMikey]

I like the way the arrangement of the music changes depending on which menu you're in, becoming ambient electronic music when you tune and upgrade.

Thank you for your story it was ery helpful. I ended up looking up the cars from FM4 and they even had Porsche! Kaz said that was impossible... Any way thanks I think I'll take the plunge

T10/MS had to jump through hoops of fire to make this possible. They even had to pay EA.

I hope you enjoy Forza. I don't think you'll regret it, rumble triggers for the win.

 

[SimTourist]

Also you've got to appreciate the wizards at T10/PG for getting Forza to run at 1080p and 60fps on the Xbone, seeing how pretty much everyone else has failed to do so, I blame MS for screwing everyone with the below expected hardware specs, but I've gotta give a nod to programmers at T10 for making FM5 look as good as it does and having a benchmark for others to match in terms of resolution and framerate.

 

[Imari]

A lot of questionable stuff in GT5/6 was due to hardware limitations, but a lot was also just poor design, decision making and time/resource management, 8 months later we still have half the features that were advertised for GT6.

The problem with the hardware limitations argument is that PD has spent the entire generation knocking up against them. They don't have a full release on the PS3 that doesn't have problems with lack of hardware power. I think that tends to point more towards an initial misjudgement of the resources available, and then an unwillingness to do anything about it when the problem became obvious.

GT5 can be understood to some degree, by the end of it's long drawn out production cycle they were better just getting out the door than reworking it yet again. GT6 is inexcusable; it's at the end of the generation with the most knowledge of what is possible and what isn't, and yet they still have this problem. I think what's in GT6 is entirely down to design choices, it can't be written off as unforeseen hardware limitations.

I expect T10 have played FM5 fairly safe, as they did with FM2. I expect a relatively large jump to FM6. I agree with the sentiment of waiting until GT7 comes out and then making the call then, but there's little to suggest so far that PD are changing their culture of design, which is really the thing that leads to most of the problems with GT.

 

[SimTourist]

The problem with the hardware limitations argument is that PD has spent the entire generation knocking up against them. They don't have a full release on the PS3 that doesn't have problems with lack of hardware power. I think that tends to point more towards an initial misjudgement of the resources available, and then an unwillingness to do anything about it when the problem became obvious.

GT5 can be understood to some degree, by the end of it's long drawn out production cycle they were better just getting out the door than reworking it yet again. GT6 is inexcusable; it's at the end of the generation with the most knowledge of what is possible and what isn't, and yet they still have this problem. I think what's in GT6 is entirely down to design choices, it can't be written off as unforeseen hardware limitations.

I expect T10 have played FM5 fairly safe, as they did with FM2. I expect a relatively large jump to FM6. I agree with the sentiment of waiting until GT7 comes out and then making the call then, but there's little to suggest so far that PD are changing their culture of design, which is really the thing that leads to most of the problems with GT.

I'd say that GT5rologue is PD's best release of last gen - consistent quality of assets, very solid framerate and graphics, better sound than both GT5/6, sleek and responsive menus and blazing fast race loadings compared to subsequent releases. The physics were also better in some ways - especially the feel of drafting and coming out of the low pressure area behind a car and being hit by the wind which disturbed the car and had a nice sound to it as well. Completely gone from GT5/6.

 

[Fat Tyre]

I'd say that GT5rologue is PD's best release of last gen - consistent quality of assets, very solid framerate and graphics, better sound than both GT5/6, sleek and responsive menus and blazing fast race loadings compared to subsequent releases.

I agree with what you say but really, solid frame rate? the copy I have was horrible in that regard. In fact, I thought the inclusion of standards in GT5 and 6 was due to the fact that they had tried having 16 premiums on screen in Prologue and that created massive problems so they included them to free up some processing power and improve frame rate. That theory of mine didn't make sense when I played Nascar races though...

To sum it up I had frame rate problems...

T10/MS had to jump through hoops of fire to make this possible. They even had to pay EA.

I hope you enjoy Forza. I don't think you'll regret it, rumble triggers for the win.

Great, that tells me they care for their fans or at least about their product!

I have the money and actually I can also afford the TX at the moment but I don't know whether to buy it now or wait until I find a nice deal, prices in Australia are ridiculous especially for the wheel.

Thank you, rumble triggers back!

 

[RacerPaul]

rumble triggers for the win

They're great aren't they? Feel them shake in a turn and you know you have to ease off

 

[SimTourist]

I agree with what you say but really, solid frame rate? the copy I have was horrible in that regard. In fact, I thought the inclusion of standards in GT5 and 6 was due to the fact that they had tried having 16 premiums on screen in Prologue and that created massive problems so they included them to free up some processing power and improve frame rate. That theory of mine didn't make sense when I played Nascar races though...

To sum it up I had frame rate problems...

Don't know man, compared to Gt5 and especially Gt6 it was damn solid, didn't bother me at least and didn't have tearing or ****** shadows problems either. DF confirms my thoughts as well, pretty decent fps. Maybe your PS3 was dying or something.

 

[Xavier2342]

How is it with a wheel?
I haven't purchased for the X1

How as changing from GT to Forza?
The change was awesome, my introduction to Forza began with Forza 2 and I've been hooked ever since. As someone mentioned earlier: car variety, sound quality and customization.

Are you happier or does it end up being the same?
Without a doubt I am happier and I don't regret making the switch. I haven't dumped GT but I don't see myself purchasing GT6 or a PS4 (while waiting for the release of GT7 anytime soon).

What do you miss from GT
I miss being able to setup Free Roam lobbies and running countless laps on Nurburgring with other people. I miss being able to switch cars without exiting my Free Roam lobby. Time lapse

What am I missing?
An experience that's different from GT.

Just tell me anything I think I just need a bit of convincing

• Rolls Royce Wraith

• Engine conversions

• Cars that actually sound like their real life counterparts

• Custom liveries

• Drivetrain conversions

 

[VXR]

Just tell me anything I think I just need a bit of convincing

You can drive many cars released between now and 2005 is pretty crucial, too.

 

[glassjaw]

Who needs music in Forza while in the race? The engine sounds are the music. Turn off the HUD and it's the best experience ever. In GT however I have to either leave the HUD on or drive automatic, because the engine sounds are so terrible at giving cues that I can never manage to shift at the right time, in Forza is works pretty naturally and the rumble triggers start to vibrate when you're reaching the red zone.

A game can have best engine sounds in the world, but at the end of the day I still love music and cannot drive without it. It especially helps during races I really, really don't want to do. The PS4 not having the ability to store custom soundtracks is probably my least favorite thing about the system.

 

[SimTourist]

A game can have best engine sounds in the world, but at the end of the day I still love music and cannot drive without it. It especially helps during races I really, really don't want to do. The PS4 not having the ability to store custom soundtracks is probably my least favorite thing about the system.

I can understand having music blasting in a game like Horizon, where I'm relaxed and don't care about lap times and what not. In serious sims though music is distracting for me, it's not as bad in GT since there is no damage and you can drive into someone or something and continue on, in FM though you're pretty much screwed if you crash. Damage your engine or gearbox and you'll end up going 10 km/h max. The stakes are higher and more concentration is required, at least that's how it goes for me. Not having media playback in the background on PSBone is an issue as well, it was such a great feature on 360, it's ridiculous how it's not present in OS' that have literally 100 times more RAM dedicated to them.

 

[GBalao888]

It seems like Forza is pulling me away from GT in many ways. Here are a few reasons why:

1. In Forza 2, 3 and 4, you can have all the cars in the game in arcade mode (although in Forza 2 you have to start with 233 out of 303 cars). You can also perform quick-tuning to these cars, but you can't alter the car's power and weight settings. (I'm not sure if you can have all the cars in the game in Forza 5's arcade mode)

2. All Forza games have a livery editor (although I'm not good at using it.)

3. Despite having fewer cars (possibly more than 800 cars in the whole series), Forza has slightly better car selections than GT (most notably having a Rolls-Royce in Forza 5).

4. The customization (alongside with the livery editor) is almost endless, compared to GT, which has very little variety.

 

[Eunosthedeer]

Like many here

I was originally very loyal to the Gran Turismo Series

I remember absolutely loving Gran Turismo 1, at the time was easily the best Car game I ever played.

Gran Turismo 2 took everything that was good about GT1 and made it even better, Still arguably my favourite game in the GT Series.

Gran Turismo 3 for me wasn't quite as good as 2 and was Disappointed by the Smaller Car Roster, I still enjoyed it and liked the improved graphics.

Gran Turismo 4 was awesome, It's a tie between 2 and 4 as to which is my favourite, They had improved graphics and a big Car Roster again. Granted you had tons of Skylines, but back then that didn't bother me to much, still loved it.

At the time I bought an X Box for Street Fighter 3rd Strike, I however also saw Forza 1 and picked that up to.

- It was a good game but I was still more loyal to GT.

Gran Turismo 5 was where I felt things were starting to go downhill a bit, It's been mentioned earlier but I just felt this one didn't really have the passion the last few games had, Yes you had some cool features like Go Karting and it was nice to see Ferrari's and Lambo's finally make it into the Gran Turismo series but it just felt a bit meh, The car roster felt a bit out dated.. Afew new cars whilst the rest were just copy/pastes from GT 4. I also felt the game to be a bit bias towards Japanese Cars, Granted it's a Japanese game but it would be nice to see a better variety of European motors.

This is where we come to Forza, I sort of regret that I never had Forza 4, I thought the Roster looked amazing. Maybe I'm alone here but I loved the fact that there was a Transit Van in the game, You also had things like the classic Cortina, The Sierra Cosworth and old school BMW M3. Where the hell were these cars in Gran Turismo?

Forgive me but I'm not Interested in the Red Bull X1 or these Future Concept cars that don't yet exist.. I want vehicles that you drive in R/L and this is where Forza kicks GT's A*se big time.

So this is the first time I have ever purchased an Xbox Console over a Playstation and am loving Forza 5

There are Cars in F4 I'm disappointed haven't made it over to F5 but whatever, I'm assumung Forza 5 is sort of like GT3 where Graphics is the priority for now and I feel Forza 6 is going to be something very Special.

I never got the chance to play GT6 as my PS3 died on me, but from the looks of things I'm not missing much, So I could drive a Moon buggy?.. Big whoop.

To be honest the only thing that sucks is they finally added my Local track Brands Hatch to the game and I can't play it.

Hoping Turn 10 will get Brands for F6.

So yeah, I'm pretty much team Forza now and I honestly don't regret it.

There are small features from GT I admit I kind of miss, I miss racing on Trial Mountain and the High Speed Ring, tracks I really enjoyed.

But whatever, If GT ever wants to win me back their going to have to create something super special in Gran Turismo 7, I'll keep an eye on it and see if it's worth checking out

But for now, I'm pretty much team Forza.

(Sorry for the long post, Thank you for reading if you did )

 

[Imari]

2. All Forza games have a livery editor (although I'm not good at using it.)

Just being able to paint your cars any colour you like without having to go searching through all the dealerships to find that one particular colour is enough for me. Adding stripes is a bonus. That's about as far as I get, and Forza does it well.

Some people are unbelievably good with the livery editor, but I'm happy with colours and simple stripes. I imagine that's about as far as many people take it.