Brand Perception of Quality

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Tesla is below Lincoln?

:confused:
Tesla's an odd one. I suspect its position there is due to relatively few people having any experience with one whatsoever. It's the "oh, it's a startup so it must be crap" thing.

At the same time, there's a happy medium between that and what Tesla owners think of their cars, with has to be taken with a pinch of salt because they're all pretty much disciples of Elon Musk.

The reality is that it deserves to be much higher than it is, since I've not really heard of any significant quality issues with them since the car went on sale (and we write about Tesla just about every day, so I'd have heard if anything big had come up), but not at the top, since Tesla's actual physical quality levels aren't as high as BMW, Mercedes etc. Despite the high-tech center console the Model S lacks a lot of the luxury kit you'd find even on 3-Series-level cars these days, and when you get real close, fit and finish isn't quite up to the huge standards of the Germans and Lexus.

For the second car produced by a startup though, it's pretty damn good. The Fisker Karma's quality levels were pretty catastrophic in comparison.
 
Tesla's an odd one. I suspect its position there is due to relatively few people having any experience with one whatsoever. It's the "oh, it's a startup so it must be crap" thing.

At the same time, there's a happy medium between that and what Tesla owners think of their cars, with has to be taken with a pinch of salt because they're all pretty much disciples of Elon Musk.

The reality is that it deserves to be much higher than it is, since I've not really heard of any significant quality issues with them since the car went on sale (and we write about Tesla just about every day, so I'd have heard if anything big had come up), but not at the top, since Tesla's actual physical quality levels aren't as high as BMW, Mercedes etc. Despite the high-tech center console the Model S lacks a lot of the luxury kit you'd find even on 3-Series-level cars these days, and when you get real close, fit and finish isn't quite up to the huge standards of the Germans and Lexus.

For the second car produced by a startup though, it's pretty damn good. The Fisker Karma's quality levels were pretty catastrophic in comparison.

Sounds about right. I would also guess those fires would have a lot to do with it.
 
I wonder if these surveys were done like those I've read over here. The examples are Dacia and Volvo because I have enough experience on them.

Person X buys a brand new Dacia, pays 12.000€ for it and drives. The car creaks, squeals, the engine is noisy, the transmission is questionable to say the least (and that's putting it kindly), the seats feel like they're made of canvas-covered plywood and there's no steering feel whatsoever but it cost 12.000€ brand new so Person X doesn't give a damn and is completely satisfied.

Person Y buys a brand new Volvo, pays 50.000€ for it and drives. The car is silent and comfortable, everything works as it should, but between +5°C and +10°C the A-pillar trim cover makes a slight resonating sound. Person Y isn't satisfied because the car has issues.

The verdict: according to owners, Dacia is a better car than Volvo.
 
Sounds about right. I would also guess those fires would have a lot to do with it.
Probably, though that's the power of the media. Tesla has had something like three fires out of 50,000 or so cars made to date, which I believe is a smaller percentage than vehicle fires in regular cars. But unless it's a Porsche or Ferrari, fires in regular cars are so frequent (and typically, not life-threatening anyway) that the media doesn't really report them any more. Because it's Tesla and it's disruptive technology, they're getting all the press for it.
I wonder if these surveys were done like those I've read over here. The examples are Dacia and Volvo because I have enough experience on them.
The ones above seem to be different, otherwise Tesla would have ranked higher because for most Model S owners, the car can do no wrong.

The ones you're describing are customer satisfaction surveys. That sort of thing is why, for a while at least, people suspected Skoda was always doing so well - people expected them to be crap, and were pleasantly surprised when they weren't. However, Skoda has remained near the top rather than sinking down over time as people get used to them, and luxury marques like Lexus and Jaguar have been at the top in UK ones for years now - brands you'd think have high expectations and owners who wouldn't take any crap if the cars went wrong.

So I'm not so sure the issues you describe are what actually happens. A car that feels like it's about to fall apart will score low ratings even if the customer hasn't paid much for it. What might make more of a difference is that if an entire door falls off a Dacia the owner will pay 20 Euros for another*, but that resonating bit of trim in a Volvo will cost 500 Euros to fix*. Getting tiny bills while you're running your car is a guaranteed vote-winner, having to pay huge amounts for less signficant things not so much.


* Exaggerating, obviously, but just illustrating a point. Expensive car - reliable, but big bills. Cheap car - may have issues, but costs sod-all to fix.
 
Lexus ahead of Audi? Lol

Still a very interesting survey. Recently Bild Zeitung released numbers about how much money brands make on average with each car sold. For the luxury segment in germany (yes thats all we got lol)...


HerstellerGewinn pro Auto (Premium)
Ferrari-Maserati
23 967 Euro
Porsche16 639 Euro
BMW-Auto3390 Euro
Audi3188 Euro
Mercedes-Smart2588 Euro

I don't know if Smart is dragging down the Mercedes number (im actually suprised that both are listed together, first time seeing this), if not, it speaks alot about the high class materials MB is using.

Oh and Porsches are really overpriced lol.
 
Probably, though that's the power of the media. Tesla has had something like three fires out of 50,000 or so cars made to date, which I believe is a smaller percentage than vehicle fires in regular cars. But unless it's a Porsche or Ferrari, fires in regular cars are so frequent (and typically, not life-threatening anyway) that the media doesn't really report them any more. Because it's Tesla and it's disruptive technology, they're getting all the press for it.
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I don't know if you have the information why the fire spread, if yes, you would know why its a safety issue. PM me if you want.
 
I don't know if you have the information why the fire spread, if yes, you would know why its a safety issue. PM me if you want.
I know exactly the circumstances of each fire so far - we've written about them at length.

Two were related to hitting debris at highway speeds (a tow hitch and another piece of metal, IIRC). In both cases, the debris penetrated the underbody shield which damaged the battery (but didn't penetrate the cabin). In each case, the drivers were able to pull the vehicle to a halt, without a struggle, and get out of the car uninjured before the fire actually started.

Tesla has fixed this debris issue by raising the ride height a little at speed, and equipping all cars with hefty underbody shielding and a debris deflector. The NHTSA has deemed Tesla's fixes suitable.

In a third case, in Mexico, a driver hit a tree and a concrete wall at very high speed. The accident was severe enough to damage the battery, causing a fire - though once again, nobody was seriously injured and all involved were able to leave the vehicle before it caught fire. A ~100mph crash is a reasonable scenario in which any car might catch fire. All three impact-related fires are detailed here.

In a fourth case, charging equipment in a garage caught fire, setting the garage itself and the car inside it on fire. Tesla has corrected the circumstances which caused such a thing with a software update, which can shut off external charging if it detects fluctuations in power or overheating.

If you know of any others, please feel free to share - but the company has been very transparent after each incident and the NHTSA has found no defects with the car, so I believe it's not a big safety issue at all.
 
Now the reality after 3 yrs
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I think the idea that Alfa Romeo are still considered unreliable is absolutely absurd. I mean, my mum's Giulietta has covered nearly 1500 miles, and in all that time, it's never broken down! :sly:

In all seriousness, the interior fit and finish feels generally pretty good, and I don't really think it's fair to say they're rubbish and they break down all the time any more.
 
The JD Vehicle Dependability Survey can be quite misleading because of how it measures "problems" as well as how the owner demographic perceives them. Mini is almost always last because the owners still consider the interior layout to be stupid and the cupholders are still too small; whereas Land Rover is almost always last, but that is more because the air conditioning sets the car on fire and the wheels keep falling off.



Conversely, Buick/Lincoln/Cadillac are always near the top the list, and the fact that Grandpa didn't fight in Korea to complain that the head gasket in his Deville blew on the way to the golf course skews that somewhat.
 
That seems more or less right, though IMO Honda/Toyota should be below Volkswagen and Ford.
:confused:...:lol:...wait, nevermind. PERCEPTION of quality not actual quality.

Weird that Scion is so low considering they are basically a Toyota.


Consumer perception is a very important thing -- subjective, yes, but it can be the deciding factor in the battle between brands and technologies.
 
The JD Vehicle Dependability Survey can be quite misleading because of how it measures "problems" as well as how the owner demographic perceives them. Mini is almost always last because the owners still consider the interior layout to be stupid and the cupholders are still too small; whereas Land Rover is almost always last, but that is more because the air conditioning sets the car on fire and the wheels keep falling off.



Conversely, Buick/Lincoln/Cadillac are always near the top the list, and the fact that Grandpa didn't fight in Korea to complain that the head gasket in his Deville blew on the way to the golf course skews that somewhat.
Compared to the public opinion poll I will go with the one that uses actual data.
 
Prove it.
Well... to be fair, it still relies on customers reporting problems. And what a customer considers to be a problem worth reporting is very much a subjective issue.

If the survey was done by the AAA and was directly related to cars they had to rescue at the side of the road, that would be objective data. As it is, it comes down to the thing @Greycap and I talked about above - a problem you might be prepared to shrug off in one car might be something that really cheeses you off in another. An $11k Nissan Versa with a squeaky dashboard is annoying but well, you've paid $11k for it. A $100k BMW with a squeaky dashboard and you're gonna be a bit annoyed, I expect.
 
Prove it.
I already explained how. Anything a customer deems a "problem" with a car in the first 90s days is reported in the survey with the same weight as any other problems, regardless of whether it actually is a real issue with the car itself. That means, for the two makes that annually end up near the very bottom of this year's list, anything from having cupholders that are too small to barely managing to stay together through the warranty period could cause a brand to end up at the bottom of the chart. That means owners buying Hummers and logging the subsequent terrible fuel mileage as a problem for J.D. to report on. That means owners buying German cars and balking at snooty dealership service. This is in no way news.



Then you add the fact that different demographics (age, gender, wealth, nationality, etc) have different standards for what constitutes a "problem" and different standards for whether they would bother to report it (how many people who bought Hummer H2s... did so knowing that it wouldn't get good mileage and didn't complain about it when asked?). Then you add the fact that, just like the thing this thread is about, the J.D. Power IQS is a survey. Add to that fact that makes with only a couple cars stand to lose or gain huge compared to a make that offers and entire model lineup.
 
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I can believe it. I've seen BMW-Mini dealers and Fiat-Dodge dealers but the vast majority don't make the connection.

Plus it's the advertisement. For many people Cheap=Poor Quality so they see cheaper Scions and think Poorer Cars.
 
I mentioned both surveys; the VDS in my first post and the IQS in the second. The issues with both studies' methodology is similar, with the main difference being that many of the more moronic "problems" are weeded out after the three years with the more notorious cars theoretically being brought to light. Here's the report to go along with that study, with one specific issue bolded:
The move to smaller engines has taken off in the past few years, with many more vehicles with a four as the base, or now the only available engine. The industry shift is being made to boost fuel economy to meet federal regulations tightening to an average 54.5 mpg in 2026. But, says Power, it means automakers have saddled drivers with "engine hesitation, rough transmission shifts and lack of power."
That could mean how there is a rash of downsized turbo drivetrains spectacularly exploding like so many Turbo-K engines or Saab transmissions, or that people simply don't like/aren't used to downsized turbocharged engines with more efficient DCT or CVT gearboxes because they don't provide the effortless, sleepy performance of a big V6 and a traditional slushbox; or anything in between.


Now compare that with the report of the IQS findings from the same year as these cars, where theories were being proposed for why customers didn't like things in the initial period:
Lest you think that these problems are primarily electronic in nature, the new Fiesta has also been cited for issues with its PowerShift dual-clutch automatic. There seems to be little evidence that this transmission has any mechanical problems, but customers are complaining about its shift quality.

The PowerShift transmission is not as smooth as a conventional automatic equipped with a torque converter. Might the customer complaints be instigated by a transmission that doesn’t feel like a conventional automatic? “I can’t go into customers’ minds,” says Festekjian.
Then imagine how many times in modern car reviews that poorer CVTs are described as being like a slushbox with a slipping torque converter; then multiply that number by how infinitely less knowledgeable your typical car owner is compared to a car magazine editor. How many people who bought a 2011 Jeep Compass (as an single year example coinciding with when it was refreshed to look like a Grand Cherokee to a massive increase in sales) thought that there was something wrong with the car, and that fool at the dealership could never manage to make it shift "right"?









Another example. Let's say you own a Cadillac you bought new in the mid-90s. Your Cadillac has the misfortune of being a Northstar. Or... is a Catera. Or to make it simpler, any Cadillac made that wasn't the Fleetwood. The stories of the Catera's woes for its entire life are infamous; and the original Euro Seville went from "the car that will save Cadillac" to "did they make this thing out of Balsa?" right around the time they changed the cooling system and the car started popping head gaskets so fast it would make the Neon say "hey, slow down guy". This also sidesteps the constant electrical problems that plagued these cars as GM targeted putting more toys in their cars then even the most fully loaded Lexus before fully grasping how well they should work. So naturally, Cadillac should end up near the bottom; with problems as severe and frequent as any Land Rover. I can't find 1995 or 1999 model year information, but they changed the testing criteria for the reporting dates in 1999 before ultimately switching to a 3-year ranking in 2003, so it may not exist; but here is the rest of it:

1994 models put Cadillac in second.
1996 models put Cadillac in eleventh, with a 50 percent increase in problems, but still way ahead of the industry average (which also shot up in tune with the survey's first redesign. The OBD-II changeover probably didn't help either.).
1997 models put Cadillac in eighth, but virtually tied with Honda and Toyota. Problem reports go tumbling back down, coinciding with... um... the Catera's introduction? The death of the bulletproof Fleetwood?
1998 models put Cadillac in eighth, again virtually tied with Toyota.
2000 models put Cadillac in seventh, just behind Toyota and ahead of Honda, probably coinciding with the redesign of the Northstar engine.
2001 models put Cadillac in fifth, shooting back up the rankings ahead of Toyota and Honda; probably coinciding with the euthanization of the Catera.



And you can't say that luxury cars are immune to these sorts of surveys, because watch in awe as the post-W124 Mercedes models causes that brand's reputation to fall off the face of the earth over the same time period. I'm not sure anyone can say with a straight face that anything Mercedes put out in that period was worse than the Catera, or that any of their cars ended up with worse gremlins than a 90s Eldorado; yet Mercedes was hit like a hammer while Cadillac mainly stayed stagnant.
 
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Honda and Toyota are ticky tacky plastic wonderlands. So are Subarus, Nissans, Fords, Chevys...

So I sold Volvos for a while (VW now)...I am used to quality. And holy ****, they have a terrible perception. But I can say, factually, compared to an A4 and 3 series the S60 is way nicer inside. Haven't been in a C class past like...2010.

The VWs look nice and seem to feel better, but once you break it down you realize the plastics are just as hard and prominent as the others. They just disguise it way better.
 
Toyotas don't have problems because they use the same parts they started engineering 20 years ago. Mini comes in at the bottom of the list thanks to the truly awful fuel pump situation that plagued their entire lineup. The engines were french, so you had to assume they'd give up. Now that MINI ist unthuntred pahrsent gehrmun, reliability should go up.
 
Lexus ahead of Audi? Lol

Still a very interesting survey. Recently Bild Zeitung released numbers about how much money brands make on average with each car sold. For the luxury segment in germany (yes thats all we got lol)...


HerstellerGewinn pro Auto (Premium)
Ferrari-Maserati
23 967 Euro
Porsche16 639 Euro
BMW-Auto3390 Euro
Audi3188 Euro
Mercedes-Smart2588 Euro

I don't know if Smart is dragging down the Mercedes number (im actually suprised that both are listed together, first time seeing this), if not, it speaks alot about the high class materials MB is using.

Oh and Porsches are really overpriced lol.

Margin per car simply reflects their relative price position within the market place...

Ferrari - Only produce very expensive cars
Porsche - Primarily produce expensive cars
BMW/Audi/Mercedes - Primarily produce upper mass market cars

If your product range is primarily lower volume £75k-£100 cars (like Porsche), you're going to make much more margin/unit than BMW/Audi/Merc selling high a high volume of c.£30k 1/3 series, A3/4 and A/C Classes.

BMW/Audi/Merc will make a pile of cash on their halo cars, but these make up a tiny percentage of their total volume.
 
Honda is riding their reputation of yore hard. They used to be fantastically clever and handy. Now most of them are pitiful. There's not a single Honda car I would spend my money on today.
 
http://www.autoblog.nl/images/wp2013/divers/TUV_Rapport_betrouwbaarheid_2014.pdf

That's a pdf file with the findings of the TUV in Germany on reliability.

No surprises there, really.
German and Japanese at the top, French and Italian at the bottom.
I'd still buy an Alfa 156. Those have already entered that funny category where owners are used to their foibles and can either correct them with little effort or just live with them - but they're the sort of things that someone coming from maybe a BMW or a Toyota might be horrified by.

It's one of those "reliability is relative" things.

Reliability in Italy is a car that can withstand being utterly thrashed for 50k miles while its occupants argue and run over moped riders, without too many issues.
Reliability in Germany is something that doesn't go wrong provided you spend a fortune ensuring it doesn't go wrong.
Reliability in the UK is a bit like reliability in Germany, just 50% less effective and 10% more expensive.
Reliability in France means mechanical parts that survive forever but trim parts that shed over time.
Reliability in America means a car you'll drive for a million miles but replace every component several times over in that time despite changing the oil every 3k miles.
Reliability in Japan means a car that will never go wrong, but if it does and you happen to have bought something with crazy four-wheel steering or R2-D2 built into the dash you'll spend forever trying to fix.
Honda is riding their reputation of yore hard. They used to be fantastically clever and handy. Now most of them are pitiful. There's not a single Honda car I would spend my money on today.
I'd still buy a CR-Z, but that's about it.
 

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