Camber problemAddressed

[waukazoo]

It's a shame that we are 6 months into gt6 and the final round of gt academy without the camber issues being resloved.
Along with much tighter track boundries in gta it appears the gt-r nismo provided for the event is with the standard suspension. If so the camber is at 3.5 front 2.9 rear. PD must not realize there is a problem. If they believe camber is fine then it begs the question, in a real life competition would Kas drive a car set up as it is given to us to compete in?

 

[super_gt]

It's a shame that we are 6 months into gt6 and the final round of gt academy without the camber issues being resloved.
Along with much tighter track boundries in gta it apperes the gt-r nismo provided for the event is with the standard suspension. If so the camber is at 3.5 front 2.9 rear. PD must not realize there is a problem. If they believe camber is fine then it begs the question, in a real life competition would Kas drive a car set up as it is given to us to compete in?

In GT6 ending movie you can see how is setup his GT-R,completely different than GT Academy GT-R

 

[waukazoo]

In GT6 ending movie you can see how is setup his GT-R,completely different than GT Academy GT-R

Thanks for that info. I will definitely look at that and compare. So that answers that, He wouldn't.

 

[LS Chiou]

...

Of note, I have noticed that very small amounts of camber (less than about 0.7 degrees) don't seem to hurt things too much. That said, given that real racing setups will run 3.5 degrees of negative camber the fact that tiny amounts of camber don't hurt you in GT6 remains very unrealistic.

Noticed that, too. And, in my experiences, it's not only harmless, but beneficial. Small improvement of lap time and handling feels can be obtained with 'proper' camber - very small at this stage, that is.

In addition, with OE (soft) spring rate of street cars, it can be good up to 1.2 or so. On stiffer setting, the positive effects would be restricted within small angles. The effects and their trend seem more or less reasonable to me, just in wrong scale.

So, I think the fix shouldn't be so hard. Rescaling the mapping of numbers and effect would probably do. Or, it might become too coarse by just stretching the scale, so would need interpolation to make it finer.

The downside is I will have to retune many cars.

 

[waukazoo]

The downside is I will have to retune many cars.

Sad but true.

Better sooner than later though, as everyones garage is growing larger everyday.
I'll gladly take retuning everything over leaving camber as it is.

 

[Thorin Cain]

I've added my "Like" to this thread because I think it is a question that needs to be answered, purely to put an end to the uncertainty of the issue.

 

[FakeID341]

Are you sure they didn't just make it more realistic and you guys aren't used to it or do you actually tune in real life and know it shouldn't respond like this?

 

[carracerptp]

We are sure.
In this game almost every car (race car or not ) is faster with no-camber. If this is true then f1, BTCC, DTM, NASCAR, INDY, WRC, etc all have been wrong for years... Maybe that's what Mercedes is doing in the F1 W05.

 

[stuff1138]

We are sure.
In this game almost every car (race car or not ) is faster with no-camber. If this is true then f1, BTCC, DTM, NASCAR, INDY, WRC, etc all have been wrong for years... Maybe that's what Mercedes is doing in the F1 W05.

Nope...looks like there's camber on those front wheels to me...

 

[FakeID341]

We are sure.
In this game almost every car (race car or not ) is faster with no-camber. If this is true then f1, BTCC, DTM, NASCAR, INDY, WRC, etc all have been wrong for years... Maybe that's what Mercedes is doing in the F1 W05.

But isn't camber supposed to improve SOME aspects of cornering, not straight up give more grip?

 

[stuff1138]

But isn't camber supposed to improve SOME aspects of cornering, not straight up give more grip?

Negative camber gives you more mechanical grip in the corners because it creates a larger contact patch when the wheels lean into the corner. On the flip side it increases breaking distance because there is less of a contact patch when the wheels are straight.

 

[FakeID341]

Negative camber gives you more mechanical grip in the corners because it creates a larger contact patch when the wheels lean into the corner. On the flip side it increases breaking distance because there is less of a contact patch when the wheels are straight.

Does the amount of body roll affect how much the wheels lean or are they completely independent?

 

[stuff1138]

Does the amount of body roll affect how much the wheels lean or are they completely independent?

All of that effects mechanical grip. The key to fast driving is controlling weight transfer. By adjusting all aspects of the wheel/suspension geometry and learning how your car rolls and pitches under breaking and various speeds of cornering, etc. You can vastly improve times.

So that being said nothing from the driver to the tires on the road is independent. Be one with your car

 

[Bhowe83]

But isn't camber supposed to improve SOME aspects of cornering, not straight up give more grip?

Here is a graph from another racing sim, Nascar 2003 [Predecessor to iRacing], which I've analyzed. The red plot is with camber, the blue is without it.
I tested the same setup, same vehicle, and same track. I tested at New Hampshire, a slow, low banked, 1 mile oval that allowed me to get pretty direct results without having to deal with the effects that banking and aerodynamics cause on grip that would skew this.

Traction circle:

As you can see here, the red plot had more lateral grip and could generate more G-forces throughout the turn and entry and exit than the blue lap. It was also 3 tenths faster in just this portion of the track shown (The part of the track in white is the portion being analyzed).

Steering Angle:

This graph shows the steering angles of both laps for the entirety of the lap. The lap with camber used less steering angle consistently (ignore those spikes, as they were times when correction was used) and the red is also more smooth, showing the car was more stable.

At the end of the lap, I was 7 tenths faster with camber than without. Keep in mind that is only 1 mile of track, and only about half of that was in the corner.

Results from day one have showed the exact opposite of this with GT6. Camber should not slow a car down. Camber should not produce less traction when used wisely. Camber should not cause you to need more steering angle to get around a corner.

 

[stuff1138]

@Bhowe83 does that sim allow you to independently control the suspension geometry of each wheel? ie allowing you to have negative camber on the outside wheel and positive on the inside? Since in NASCAR you're always turning the same direction.

 

[carracerptp]

Nope...looks like there's camber on those front wheels to me...

Darn, I was just on the phone with Redbull and Ferrari.
and Yes, that sim (NASCAR 2003) can setup each tire independently at last check.

 

[stuff1138]

Darn, I was just on the phone with Redbull and Ferrari.
and Yes, that sim (NASCAR 2003) can setup each tire independently at last check.

That's a question for another thread but that would be great if we could get that feature in GT at some point too

 

[waukazoo]

Are you sure they didn't just make it more realistic and you guys aren't used to it or do you actually tune in real life and know it shouldn't respond like this?

Well as I'm not a real life tuner all I can do is use my real life car settings and handling to compare with the same car in the game.

I'll try to keep this as short as I can so, I'll only state my camber settings.

. My real car factory stock camber is -0.5 front and rear. It handled ok. I upgraded my suspension ( a kit designed for my car, shocks, springs and such) recomended camber as a starting point was -0.8 front -.09 rear. I drove it for about a month set like that. It handled differently but not what I hoped. I had it set up again this time camber was changed to -1.50 front -1.0 rear. And I like it much better at this setting.

If I set the camber on the same car in the game to -0.5/-0.5 (stock #'s) or -0.8/-0.9 (upgraded kit #'s) it handles worse than my car does with those settings. With the in game car set at -1.5/-1.0 it handles terrible.

The closest in game camber setting to get the feel and handling of my real car is 0.0 front and rear.

Since PD rarely comunicates with it's fan base I have to assume they feel camber is fine as it is. Comparing my real car to the game version of my car, leads me to believe that camber in the game is not working as it does in real life and not working as it should in the game.

looking at the tunes posted here on gt planet it seems vast majority of in game tuners agree that 0.0 is the optimal camber setting. Unless your setting up a drift car. I don't know, would anyone even set up a real car with camber at 0.0?

 

[Bhowe83]

@Bhowe83 does that sim allow you to independently control the suspension geometry of each wheel? ie allowing you to have negative camber on the outside wheel and positive on the inside? Since in NASCAR you're always turning the same direction.

Yes, each piece of suspension and each individual wheel is setup independent of each other as in the real world.

 

[LS Chiou]

The camber is not only for counteracting the body leaning and/or the suspention geometry, a pretty big part of it is for fighting the tire deflection.

Ideally, it's the best to keep the most rubber (contac patch) on the road all the time. But in fact it's chaning all the time along with the load and 'gesture' of individual tire. If the suspension itself can give a proper amount of negative camber when needed (e.g., outside being compressed in a corner), then the static camber is not needed (and it's no longer doing good thing).

However, too many factors are mixed in this complex party.

 

[PaMu1337]

Guess this one can be locked now.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Guess this one can be locked now.

Looks like it. Would have been interesting to see Kaz squirm with this one. I'm guessing he said to the staff, "Uh oh, camber is way up on the list of questions, someone fix that ASAP!! No way I can answer that one with a straight face"

 

[Tornado]

Would have been more interesting to see Zuel try to explain why the thing he said was perfectly accurate as is was changed. In comparison, Kaz and PD might simply not have known it was broken.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Would have been more interesting to see Zuel try to explain why the thing he said was perfectly accurate as is was changed.

Haha. We should petition @Jordan to see if we can send Zuel an invite to bring him back and discuss it:idea:

 

[TRLWNC7396]

See what the new update has brought...

 

[stuff1138]

So does it work?

EDIT: I know there was an update and it was "fixed" but does it actually work?

 

[Chrunch Houston]

looking for a camber thread that @Gravitron hasn't locked, and it is in the Kazunori Yamauchi Q&A section. I just want to know if the camber was fixed with the new update.

 

[NoizeboyMugen]

looking for a camber thread that @Gravitron hasn't locked, and it is in the Kazunori Yamauchi Q&A section. I just want to know if the camber was fixed with the new update.

So does it work?

EDIT: I know there was an update and it was "fixed" but does it actually work?

I can confirm it works! ^_^ If you want to try it yourself I'd recommend testing the yellow bird. Add on about 0.5 degrees of Camber to it and and slowly increase that by increments of 5 then watch the magic happen lol

 

[Robbks]

I seem to remember a camber issue back in GT4 (maybe) and how it was defined.
using photo mode after making adjustments to the full extent of the range in one direction, and then again in the other worked out which was which (+ve or -ve).

Has anyone used the photomode to capture the actual camber angles at various settings?

 

[mistersafeway]

looking for a camber thread that @Gravitron hasn't locked, and it is in the Kazunori Yamauchi Q&A section. I just want to know if the camber was fixed with the new update.

This thread is consistently near the top of the tuning forum, so that just comes across as a dig at @Gravitron, who is doing nothing but his duty as a moderator.