Camber

[eclipsee]

this demonstrates to you that your tune isn't optimal?

That's an euphemism.

 

[Fuzzi0n]

However these test are meaningless if you have a mental block preventing your vision from seeing past linear results. Get over it simply gradually increasing grip from zero on a linear path, it just doesn't work that way IRL or the game.

Of course not, but what people have been finding is that there isn't a setting above 0.0 that provides more grip, when in the majority of cars there should be.

There are a number of issues with testing this in GT anyway, biggest one being there isn't a way to get proper telemetry out of the game to see what the suspension is doing over the course of a lap. Without that we're guessing at how accurate the suspension modelling is without any way to tell what it is really doing. GT6 also has a lot of missing adjustments in the setup screen relating to suspension, and those that are there are massively simplified. I'm wondering how those values translate into what ends up on the car and if the issue lies there, rather than in the tyres or suspension. If it's an issue with the tyre model that isn't responding to camber correctly then they've got some serious work to do to fix that, maybe while they're at it they could give us tyre pressure adjustments - that most basic setup adjustment that's always missing in GT games. I can understand testing it by driving at a constant speed and trying multiple camber values to test it, but to be sure we really need some numbers from the game, which we don't have. I suspect it is somewhat broken just from how the cars behave, from my experience ballpark camber values on race cars don't change the balance a whole lot, rather it's the extreme values that do, usually incorrectly. Here's to hoping PD pick up on it and fix it, until then I'll stick with running somewhat 'realistic' values.

 

[mistersafeway]

You were doing pretty well for the first half of your post...

Your problem here is that you think we need to prove our point when it's the general consensus, you are wrong. We also have plenty of evidence, like all the people at the top of TTs using 0.0 camber, you on the other hand have only provided real examples and nothing that works in GT6, as evidenced by @FussyFez's test.

 

[faceman557]

Not that this needs to proven to the ones that know whats going on, but.

I took "JACK's" EXACT setup for the GT350 '65 at Laguna and with an unbias test ran low 140s. Maybe just maybe I could get 139.9, if the the car was more predictable, but it wasn't. Did 10 laps.

Then changing ONLY CAMBER TO ZERO/ZERO!! I ran 139.395, first flying lap. That setup would not allow any more out of IT. Did 5 laps

Though mind you I'm not accustom to SH and no ABS. I also did this test twice, so as not to be better on one or the other setups.

 

[Motor City Hami]

A couple of good camber tests have been posted in the tuning forum Camber Theory thread. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/camber-theory.294762/page-5#post-9293333

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't use abs or any other assists. But I'm rather curious how having abs on makes u not feel the suspension. I could kinda understand that during braking the abs could have an affect on balance but how does it affect anything in the turn when u aren't braking?

There is quite a difference in feel with ABS on and off. The car feels more alive and responsive without ABS even though you are the same speed at best, and usually a little slower. Because you don't have ABS moderating your brake balances, when and where you hit the brakes and how much force you use unleashes many more variables in the suspension setup than your standard, "mash the brake" ABS kind of driving. You may never achieve the exact same initial brake pressure entering a corner during successive laps and so each time it'll be a little different and really bring out the flaws, or greatness, of your suspension.

 

[Bradk20]

There is quite a difference in feel with ABS on and off. The car feels more alive and responsive without ABS even though you are the same speed at best, and usually a little slower. Because you don't have ABS moderating your brake balances, when and where you hit the brakes and how much force you use unleashes many more variables in the suspension setup than your standard, "mash the brake" ABS kind of driving. You may never achieve the exact same initial brake pressure entering a corner during successive laps and so each time it'll be a little different and really bring out the flaws, or greatness, of your suspension.

Guess that would make sense. only time iv used abs was on the rain masters and given the severe lack of grip it's hard to compare to a dry track.

 

[Stotty]

That's an euphemism.

Or an understatement

 

[Jack Napier]

You see it's NOT on my back to prove its done correctly... What need me to prover each tuning aspect is correct or not?!? Seriously?!?!

Since your OPINION is that's it's broken, it's on you to prove it's broken conclusively. OR accept it as opinion not fact until you can.

Nothing has proven camber to be broken... You are Just mixing up people posing your opinion as fact, and acting like babies if people don't just buy into the BS as it's a common OPINION.......

If you say it's broken PROVE IT or STFU & stop crying... You can't even prove your understanding of the adjustments let alone interpret the expected outcome... Obviously you think it's broken because you can't figure it out and all that's been proven is that you don't know how to prove your bogus claim... It appears like you guys have NO interest in the truth and you refuse to take part in any viable testing shows your just selling BS, nothing more....

I'm the Bad Guy. You need people like me to point your fingers and say "that's the Bad Guy"

 

[bikerbob951]

POST YOUR REPLAY.

You talk of proof, you haven't proven your own silly claims. All you've managed to do is waste a lot of time with long, rambling posts full of incoherent half-truths... I kinda feel bad for you.

Anyway, keep it up, at least you are entertaining.

Hint: if you want to have a real discussion about suspension, try using lucid responses and not attacking people. You might learn a thing or two. 👍

 

[Verbal]

POST YOUR REPLAY.

What for?
I've tried his setup and will freely admit that I probably lack the driving skills but definitely the patience to wring out a sub 1:40 from this thing. However I'm not doubting at all that it's possible. With my own setup I quickly got down into 38s with definitely still ample room for improvement. That still doesn't conclusively prove much beyond his setup being a bad match for my driving style (and apparently that of many others).
Personally I'd prefer a more objective approach, like the skidpad test I posted earlier. Doesn't depend on any driving skills and therefore can easily be reproduced by others to confirm or refute the findings. And if you think that my test of course couldn't have worked because I used totally unrealistic camber values - fair enough. Go ahead, show us a test where your "done right" camber settings improve grip over zero camber. Simples, isn't it?

 

[Bradk20]

Yea, not attacking people and basically calling everyone that doesn't agree with you stupid (which as far as I can tell is everyone) would go a long ways towards people taking what you say seriously.

 

[Stotty]

The Rx7 I got and didn't see downforce settings or diff, and no power upgrades so I left them all default.

Stock GT300 Rx7 at Cape inside.

I looked over the tune tweeted the springs damps added camber n toe then hit the track for some laps, lap 7 I hit 51.9 but was running 52 low up to then..

Still haven't actually tuned anything just tweaked it a bit before hitting the track..

Post up the downforce and diff settings so I can see what's hurting you.

Ohh and done with no ABS ill also mention those are my first TT laps at that track


GT350

No Assist Tuning, including ABS off.

Sport Hard specific Tune dialled for ONLY SH tires. I ran a few more laps with a few tweaks and hit 1:39 with ABS off. I like that replays if you want...

"Black Stalion"

500pp
386hp
384.4tq

1040kg

Matte Black

Aero type B
Wing cust A

Rigidity improvement installed and oil change

Wheels 1 in up Amarican Racing painted metallic silver

102/94
6.57/5.71
4/3
5/4
4/4
-1.7/-0.3
-0.12/0.47

STD Brakes
4/3

224

2.941
1.742
1.193
0.892
0.691

3.841

All DT upgrades

9
32
17

Intake tuning
Racing Exhaust
Racing Catt

Stag 3 weight reduction
Carbon body c hood
Window weight drop

Ballast 1kg
Position 0

Downforce 0/19

I tried your tune... brand new GT350, set up exactly as yours though a different colour (I don't think you're going to claim colour affects wheel angles and how a car drives ). Laguna Secca. All aids off, ABS 0.

Took me 6 laps to hit a 1'39, and another 10 to get down to a 1'39.291. With more laps I would see a mid 1'38, but to be honest, the car is terrible to drive with that tune on it. It has cronic understeer - it won't turn in and you can't pick up the power until well after the apex. In addition, it doesn't have much exit traction either (most likely because the diff is too tight).

After running the laps above I changed camber (only change) to 0 front and rear and 1st lap ran a 1'38.9, and after 5 more laps 1'38.665. With 0 camber the car still has a load of understeer, but it stops better and turns in better. Would run a high 1'37 like this with time.

Next I set toe to 0.00 0.10 (a good starting point for rear toe on a FR car), 4th lap 1'37.707 with a big drfit out of turn 1. The car still understeered, but it was significantly reduced. Like this, I think I could possibly un high 36's with time, but definitely a very low 37.

You may understand all the theory of real suspension tuning, but as has been said before, the game doesn't always work like real life.

Some other general tips on tuning for you...

LSD tuning: FR cars almost never require LSD decel as it just adds turn in understeer. Your accel setting is high for a car with such limited traction (and will work better with an initial of 5)

Chassis strengthening: You should only fit this if a car is very unstable under braking and you can't cure this through other means (typically, rear +ve toe or LSD decel, but also rear springs/dampers/ARB. This rarely does anything but add understeer to a set up.

Gears: The gears on your 350 tune are far too long - 3rd goes to well over 100mph, and the car hardly gets in to 4th, never mind 5th. I suggest you learn the 'tranny flip' as a way of tuning your gears.

 

[FussyFez]

I am glad others have tested and come to the same conclusion.

 

[Jack Napier]

It might be the general consensus on this fan board but that doesn't make it a fact. Far from it....

I suspect if driving no ABS and on SH unfamiliar to you (as was stated in the post BUT removed in edit after) probably due to the very we'll put post just above detailing how ABS is going to affect the way the car feels more then just during braking..

Mashing pedals doesn't work like ABS driving, you need to be smooth on the controls and use them with finesse.

 

[Stotty]

It might be the general consensus on this fan board but that doesn't make it a fact. Far from it....

I suspect if driving no ABS and on SH unfamiliar to you (as was stated in the post BUT removed in edit after) probably due to the very we'll put post just above detailing how ABS is going to affect the way the car feels more then just during braking..

Mashing pedals doesn't work like ABS driving, you need to be smooth on the controls and use them with finesse.

IS the section I bolded in the quote directed at me? (I did edit my post, but only to correct some spelling and grammar).

I'm more than comfortable driving with or without ABS and on any grade of tyre.

However, I fail to see how ABS would affect a comparative test... ABS or no ABS would affect camber and toe equally, wouldn't it?

Seems all you're doing now is trying to evade the truth with smoke screens.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It might be the general consensus on this fan board but that doesn't make it a fact. Far from it....

I suspect if driving no ABS and on SH unfamiliar to you (as was stated in the post BUT removed in edit after) probably due to the very we'll put post just above detailing how ABS is going to affect the way the car feels more then just during braking..

Mashing pedals doesn't work like ABS driving, you need to be smooth on the controls and use them with finesse.

It is the general consensus of this board precisely because it is a fact. And its also fairly obvious from your tune and the predictable negative feedback it's received, that you lack even a basic grasp of tuning in GT6. If you can't figure out the basics I'm pretty sure you aren't qualified to discuss the effectiveness of camber in GT6.

Obvious troll will now begin obviously trolling.

 

[Bradk20]

It might be the general consensus on this fan board but that doesn't make it a fact. Far from it....

I suspect if driving no ABS and on SH unfamiliar to you (as was stated in the post BUT removed in edit after) probably due to the very we'll put post just above detailing how ABS is going to affect the way the car feels more then just during braking..

Mashing pedals doesn't work like ABS driving, you need to be smooth on the controls and use them with finesse.

I see the fact that everyone that has tried your tunes seems to be able to put in faster laps with your exact tune but with 0 front and rear camber than they can with your alignment settings. Ppl do have diff styles and drive their own way. Maybe driving with camber gives you faster lap times. Although for myself and everyone else it would seem the opposite is true. Iv only been playing gt6 for about 2 weeks now and that was one of the first things I noticed that cars seem to handle better have better turn in and less understeer with 0 camber. Right before I started playing this game I had been playing fm5 since the launch. In fm5 camber has a tremendous affect on overall grip and balance and turning angle thru turns (probably cuz fm5 has tire deformation physics for one). I found it rather odd that in gt6 adding camber seemed to hurt overall grip and balance and turning angle. The point is still the same, the camber in gt6 is messed up in some way and just doesn't affect the car the way it should. No amount of arguing attacking or belittling others or real world knowledge is going to change that fact. You could be the guy that sets up the suspension geometry on Ferrari's F1 cars and it still won't matter. The game is not accurate to real life.

 

[mistersafeway]

I see the fact that everyone that has tried your tunes seems to be able to put in faster laps with your exact tune but with 0 front and rear camber than they can with your alignment settings. Ppl do have diff styles and drive their own way. Maybe driving with camber gives you faster lap times. Although for myself and everyone else it would seem the opposite is true. Iv only been playing gt6 for about 2 weeks now and that was one of the first things I noticed that cars seem to handle better have better turn in and less understeer with 0 camber. Right before I started playing this game I had been playing fm5 since the launch. In fm5 camber has a tremendous affect on overall grip and balance and turning angle thru turns (probably cuz fm5 has tire deformation physics for one). I found it rather odd that in gt6 adding camber seemed to hurt overall grip and balance and turning angle. The point is still the same, the camber in gt6 is messed up in some way and just doesn't affect the car the way it should. No amount of arguing attacking or belittling others or real world knowledge is going to change that fact. You could be the guy that sets up the suspension geometry on Ferrari's F1 cars and it still won't matter. The game is not accurate to real life.

He said earlier in the thread that we convinced ourselves we were right, what you said is just a polite way of saying the opposite. 👍

If he wants to keep up his nonsense (trolling, idiocy, arrogance, who cares what his motivation is) without testing, only calling everyone stupid, that's his call, but the mods will get fed up soon. Continuing to argue is a bad idea, as it'll just make whoever does so a potential additional target for infractions, and you won't convince him.

 

[Jack Napier]

I find it odd that when I remove the camber and toe from my GT350 it starts acting exactly like you guys say it does with the camber settings intact, and when I put them back on the car drives normal again....

However with the camber removed and ABS turned on she settles down hmmmm I smell a fish...

As I said I got videos, but the guys who tweaked settings running those hot laps have yet to even show the tweaked tune they ran to beat 1:39 or video of the run. I go so far as to finish my lap, lock up tires to prove 0 ABS and I pull a sustained burnout to show no TCS (but indicator on input doesn't it too) for fun

We can all run those inconclusive test but none of the biased results have any meaning.


As I look over GTP style of tuning I see a element of tuning to replace assist. Like tuning the diff to allow you to full throttle out of a corner & saying stuff like the GT350 can't put down power out of a corner because the diff is too tight... That interesting because a tighter diff will puts down more power, but the driver has to hav the ability to control it with the gas pedal. Get it? Better throttle control (meaning power out the corner, not simply mash the gas at apex) Also there is the mention of the GT350 rotating like a car that handles right if you get the corner right. Again interesting because you obviously you see she rotates IF you are a consistent enough driver to rotate her....

Basically it seems the tuning is only to make the cars easier to drive and they use the tune to assist the driver. GTP has been Spending much time adapting to and pushing this style of tuning and it's probably why so many here use ABS, because that's the one assist too hard to replicate at the cost of the rest if the easy drive tune, those adjustments may compromise them.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I find it odd that when I remove the camber and toe from my GT350 it starts acting exactly like you guys say it does with the camber settings intact, and when I put them back on the car drives normal again....

However with the camber removed and ABS turned on she settles down hmmmm I smell a fish...

As I said I got videos, but the guys who tweaked settings running those hot laps have to even show the tweaked tune they ran to beat 1:39 or video of the run. I go so far as to finish my lap, lock up tires to prove 0 ABS and I pull a sustained burnout to show no TCS (but indicator on input doesn't it too) for fun

We can all run those inconclusive test but none of the biased results have any meaning.


As I look over GTP style of tuning I see a element of tuning to replace assist. Like tuning the diff to allow you to full throttle out of a corner & saying stuff like the GT350 can't put down power out of a corner because the diff is too tight... That interesting because a tighter diff and better throttle control (meaning power out the corner, not simply mash the gas at apex) also there is the mention of the GT350 rotating like a car that handles right if you get the corner right. Again interesting because you obviously you see she rotates IF you are a consistent enough driver to rotate her.

Basically it seems the tuning is only to make the cars easier to drive use the tune to assist the driver. Spending much time adapting to and pushing this style of tuning and it's probably why so many use ABS because that's the one assist too hard to replicate at the cost of the rest if the easy drive tune, those adjustments may compromise them.

Silly us, we thought tuning was supposed to make cars faster, not more difficult to drive. Who knew?

 

[Stotty]

As I said I got videos, but the guys who tweaked settings running those hot laps have yet to even show the tweaked tune they ran to beat 1:39 or video of the run. I go so far as to finish my lap, lock up tires to prove 0 ABS and I pull a sustained burnout to show no TCS (but indicator on input doesn't it too) for fun

We can all run those inconclusive test but none of the biased results have any meaning.

I'll start by saying you're somewhat clever in never replying directly to anyone in an attempt to keep thing vague and avoid direct discussion... but that isn't going to work.

I already told you I ran your tune with no assists (inc. no ABS)... and then told you exactly what changes I made to beat your time... not by fractions, but by whole seconds. If you want the replays I have one for each of the 3 runs I did this afternoon - 1 exactly as your tune, one with camber at zero and one one with revised toe. I'm more than happy to post them.

Basically it seems the tuning is only to make the cars easier to drive and they use the tune to assist the driver. GTP has been Spending much time adapting to and pushing this style of tuning and it's probably why so many here use ABS, because that's the one assist too hard to replicate at the cost of the rest if the easy drive tune, those adjustments may compromise them.

Surely the purpose of tuning is... 1) make cars nicer to drive than stock, and/or 2) make a car that will run fast laps.

Unfortunately, by both of those measures, you fail. Throw as much rubbish out there as you like, but the truth is your car is both slow and rubbish to drive

 

[Jack Napier]

I might as well start proving it works.

Not an easy task when the benefits to laps times are not fantastic, and require a DRIVER element that's unbiased.

Most cars in game the diff in laps times will be driver and track specific so how to do this???

After much thought I've come up with an idea..

I need somebody to put up a Tune for the KTM X-Bow Street version with no wheel angle tuning

We will run the car at 2 tracks a long track and a short track.

Long Track
Mt Panorama Motor Racing Circuit

Short Track
Cape Ring - Inside


If camber is broken and removes cornering grip when it should increase it no matter what camber setting on a linear path from zero, then no matter what camber is set to it should hurt the performance at these 2 tracks right??

X-Bow at 600pp on RH tires.

Let's move to grippier tires where it's easier for anybody to replicate the test we will do at these 2 tracks...

Once somebody mans up with a X-Bow tuned to tire and spec we can take it a step further....

Challenge? Are you even up to a challenge?

To those asking for a tuning challenge. Lock in my wheel angle setting to an equal spec GT350. Use the wheel angles from my tune. Now with all your tuning skillz, tune the car as best as you can WITHOUT touching the wheel angles. This is a challenge being forced to tune around fixed wheel settings, who is up to it???? This if anybody really has the stones and runs legit pushing for the fastest times possible will be very interesting, I'd like to see what you guys come up with, if anything at all.....

 

[Jack Napier]

Silly us, we thought tuning was supposed to make cars faster, not more difficult to drive. Who knew?

Faster yes, but that's most often NOT easiest to drive however if too accustomed to and soo many GTP men's have much time to be monkeys in front of a typewriters playing GT all day but say otherwise, things are as they are...

 

[Motor City Hami]

I am starting to think that Jack is actually a Jackie. She argues using the same method that my wife uses. Logic and reason need not apply.

 

[FussyFez]

A xbow tune I hear you cry?
. (note he hasn't re - done brake balance since 1.04, but that shouldn't be an issue for you to adjust now should it? )

Go ahead and improve that with camber.

Here's another.

 

[Stotty]

I am starting to think that Jack is actually a Jackie. She argues using the same method that my wife uses. Logic and reason need not apply.

I allways assumed all wives were like that

 

[Motor City Hami]

Go ahead and improve that with camber.

Here's another.

And one more to play with. Why create all of these new parameters. Just use an existing time trial. This tune was built using the proper steering angles used for Eiger.

KTM X-Bow Street '12
540PP, 279hp, 800kg
Paint: Spirited Green Metallic

Tuned with G27 with Nixim Brake Pedal Mod and ABS 1


Tune built for the KTM X-bow Street Super Lap Seasonal at Eiger Nordwand- January 15, 2014

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/motor-city-tunes-gt6.291066/page-8#post-9225723

 

[FussyFez]

Be careful what you wish for Jack.

 

[Jack Napier]

I think the best way to test if camber works or if it's a driver thing common here is this.

With a specific track and car a camber setting is set based on the track and tuned around the positive caster angle we measure on that car.

Running a moderate lap we note the furthest point the steering wheel turns to in each corner of the track counting the hour at that point, add up all the hours then divid this by the number of corners. This gives us the average turning angle to dial in the camber.

The tuners who say say camber is broken then compete against each other EVERYBODY using the same camber setting...

Once they are satisfied with there work a group of test drivers run those tunes and sees who can tune the best under the gun...

It would be best if could take it a step further...

Pepsi Challenge.

Somebody builds the cars and paints each one a different color and drivers do not get to know who tuned what car, it be best if drivers do not ever even look at the settings to make sure they push each one as fast sat they can..

Be fun for tuners to get to drive those cars and comment unaware of what car is their own...

BUT let's be serious, you guys are not interested in the truth or really figuring it out are you lol

I'll make it easy for you to use in your own skid test corner test whatever..

If you really wanted to at least test it on your skid pad correctly or test one corner as you seem to want to do, then do this, hit the corner in your controlled fashion as you must have one already. Note the furthest point the steering wheel turns to, note the amount of steering and drive the car to the point in the corner where you want the most added grip park right there as if your car was in motion and turn the wheel into the corner at your noted hour...

Photo mode look at your inside tire and adjust the camber until the inside wheel flattens out, then adjust it to .5 neg and .5 pos camber noting the range of camber setting inside that range of .5 neg to .5pos (to be more thurough you could note the gap from 1 to -1) let this range be the values you test in that corner for camber, try and test all setting inside the window... Vs 0 camber.

Adding camber at random values you have 99 / 99 variables and you guys test like 2 maybe 3% and don't even know if those values your testing are inside the very small window where you can find gains, and when tuning to a track you have to factor in more then one corner.. At least you can see it working better...