Can we actually call GT5 a simulator?

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Yeah because unstable cars that spin at the drop of a hat are totally realistic...

At this point your just a GT5 fanboy trying your hardest to make GT seem like it is at the top of the heap. Get over it and yourself! GT5 is an okay game, and the GT series is a great series, but they have much room to improve and they will. I'm a fan but at least most of us can see the writing on the walls when it comes to what is a better simulator for racing. GT5 is the one, sorry.

 

[peter_vod69]

At this point your just a GT5 fanboy trying your hardest to make GT seem like it is at the top of the heap. Get over it and yourself! GT5 is an okay game, and the GT series is a great series, but they have much room to improve and they will. I'm a fan but at least most of us can see the writing on the walls when it comes to what is a better simulator for racing. GT5 is the one, sorry.

Why would you quote that and then reply like that? Arrogant and rude much?

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

If anything, faster laps can be achieved in GT without ABS, so I don't see the issue for all the people I see whining about ABS in GT5.
Not to mention the fact that it can't be enforced properly.💡

So yeah, I agree the ABS isn't perfect in GT5, of course. But to think driving without it somehow makes you a better driver? You'd have to be kidding yourself, and like-minded individuals.

You may have faster laps but it's a lot easier to be consistent with ABS on. Driving with ABS off is harder than with ABS on so yes in general someone with ABS off keeping up with someone with ABS on in the same car would be the better driver.
ABS off is more risky just like having heavy damage on.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Why would you quote that and then reply like that? Arrogant and rude much?

Same could be said about you when anyone else mentions a game other than GT5. I guess you think you're not being rude though?

 

[peter_vod69]

Same could be said about you when anyone else mentions a game other than GT5. I guess you think you're not being rude though?

Show me where.

 

[CSLACR]

Just know FM4 offline is a step back from Fm3 kind of like Gt5 offline was compared to GT4.

To an extent though, this mirrors real-world events. In any production-based racing series, competitors invariably find that one car will have a distinct advantage, then usually they either dominate or the rules are changed to hobble them. It happens all the time. The only time it doesn't is when the parity rules are carefully designed and monitored, in series like DTM, or SuperGT, or indeed our own V8 Supercars.

That's true.
IRL, can I limit every car to specific modifications, like the SCCA does?

After answering "Yes", tell me if I can do that in GT5.

Now we can finally just go "tuning prohibited" but that's often not what we want either. For example a real world Viper ACR can be raced with limits on modification (and it was created for it's own series), meanwhile, they can tweak what the car came with.
GT5's idea of "tuning prohibited" means not only are we not allowed to add parts, but we can't adjust what's factory adjustable.

The update is an improvement, but far short of being an answer.

You may have faster laps but it's a lot easier to be consistent with ABS on. Driving with ABS off is harder than with ABS on so yes in general someone with ABS off keeping up with someone with ABS on in the same car would be the better driver.
ABS off is more risky just like having heavy damage on.

So TCS makes you "faster" as well in your book, yes?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Show me where.

You're comment about Forza 4 that you made when you quoted CSL for one. I'm not going to go through all these pages, you know that you have a bias and I'm going to call you out on it because GT5 is only best to you, which is 100% subjective.

 

[NCRthree]

The OP brings up an excellent point that has bugged me since I started playing this series. There's just too many variables in aftermarket products to make modding a realistic venture. It's why before getting into online racing with GT5, I would hate to mod the cars. Used to hate having to add parts to beat the rabbit car! This is based on the assumption that GT5 stock cars behave like a real car of course.

But racing online w/ friends in a series is so fun that it becomes a moot point. Fine tuning for simulated tracks with simulated tuning parts utilizing simulated tuning parameters. So the modifying has to be somewhat generic just to be practical within this consoles parameters. I've just accepted it as a practicality limitation and enjoy the camaraderie of fellow racers.

It just depends on one's expectations or definition of what is a realistic simulation of a real life experience. The tiresome argument that GT5 or any home console game isn't as good a life like simulation as say a State of the Art Flight or Race Simulator is so misguided. I mean why bother comparing something that simulates gforces on a human being for training purposes to a mass market "fun" product. It's a physical impossibility for any home console game or simulator or whatever to give you close to that kind of experience. Isn't that just common sense? Jeez!

Rant over, think I'll go for a simulation drive/race in a simulated 69 Ford GT40. Hope I don't have a simulated crash that requires a simulated hospital stay!

 

[jtv90069]

ok then back to the topic of upgrades.
I do like Forza's setup up of upgrades but that also goes in to unrealistic territory as well (FM3 Chevy Aveo with V8 and RWD).
It is difficult to do a realistic upgrade system, i think. In that simple bolt on parts and turbo boost pressure are common but minor upgrades and so much more can be done with varying results between same engines. My step-dad used to race boats and still plays with his engine regularly. He has a 253ci (4.2L) V8 bored and stroked to 4.6L, dry sump race pistons crank shaft drive shaft etc. He bought Yella Terra heads back in 1984 and since then has put countless hours of work into the heads alone. The heads are cast which means that there are many casting imperfections in them, so he has been slowly grinding to insides to remove ans smooth out as much as he can to improve airflow. It would be very difficult to tell exactly how much hp he has gained from his improvements.
My point is that i think that GT is based on levels of upgrades/improvements but still very simplified. Some cars like the Supra RZ are not done well as IRL a simple boost pressure adjustment can get around 600hp without doing anything else. other cars are likely exaggerated in their max power, and some would be about right (i hope).

P.S my step-dads engine is made to conform to regulations, has approx 450hp and is N/A.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

ok then back to the topic of upgrades.
I do like Forza's setup up of upgrades but that also goes in to unrealistic territory as well (FM3 Chevy Aveo with V8 and RWD).
It is difficult to do a realistic upgrade system, i think. In that simple bolt on parts and turbo boost pressure are common but minor upgrades and so much more can be done with varying results between same engines. My step-dad used to race boats and still plays with his engine regularly. He has a 253ci (4.2L) V8 bored and stroked to 4.6L, dry sump race pistons crank shaft drive shaft etc. He bought Yella Terra heads back in 1984 and since then has put countless hours of work into the heads alone. The heads are cast which means that there are many casting imperfections in them, so he has been slowly grinding to insides to remove ans smooth out as much as he can to improve airflow. It would be very difficult to tell exactly how much hp he has gained from his improvements.
My point is that i think that GT is based on levels of upgrades/improvements but still very simplified. Some cars like the Supra RZ are not done well as IRL a simple boost pressure adjustment can get around 600hp without doing anything else. other cars are likely exaggerated in their max power, and some would be about right (i hope).

P.S my step-dads engine is made to conform to regulations, has approx 450hp and is N/A.

Not really turbo and supercharger seem minor game wise but real life wise they're not minor. Certain mechanical elements come in to play, especially make sure the bottom end can handle any forced induction or does it need to be overhauled. No matter what game we talk about there is far too much needed to make that aspect of the game seem realistic, I guess it could be done but other fans that know nothing about cars or care to learn may find it boring. Well the supra is underdone and so are the GT-R and V8 cars, which once again goes back to having to much in that area that will turn others away.

Also what does your dad drive?

 

[JDMKING13]

This is the assumption I'm talking about.

I could show you the fastest GT5 players in the world using ABS on 1, and it has nothing to do with skill, but what you can prove somebody is running throughout a race.
I find it amusing though that you would jump on that limb and tell me to watch my own replay to see my own lack of skill.

I very much do not enter corners at full on braking, but since you didn't read my last post, or disregarded it, I'll assume you'll do the same with this one.

My bad man I didn't mean you I took it as you know how to brake when you said you brake so that the ABS doesn't kick in. I was talking about your opponents in your replay I should of been clear my bad. I wasn't try to disrespect you.

 

[jtv90069]

Not really turbo and supercharger seem minor game wise but real life wise they're not minor. Certain mechanical elements come in to play, especially make sure the bottom end can handle any forced induction or does it need to be overhauled. No matter what game we talk about there is far too much needed to make that aspect of the game seem realistic, I guess it could be done but other fans that know nothing about cars or care to learn may find it boring. Well the supra is underdone and so are the GT-R and V8 cars, which once again goes back to having to much in that area that will turn others away.

Also what does your dad drive?

Car wise it is a stock 1991 Holden Commodore, the motor is for a Stephens V Bottom, 20ft i think. been clocked at 94MPH 20 years ago so in theory should be faster now

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Car wise it is a stock 1991 Holden Commodore, the motor is for a Stephens V Bottom, 20ft i think. been clocked at 94MPH 20 years ago so in theory should be faster now

That's cool, I always loved Holden's especially the one from Mad Max.

 

[jtv90069]

That's cool, I always loved Holden's especially the one from Mad Max.

lol Mad Max had damn Ford Falcon but it does look cool even if the supercharger was fake.

 

[CSLACR]

My bad man I didn't mean you I took it as you know how to brake when you said you brake so that the ABS doesn't kick in. I was talking about your opponents in your replay I should of been clear my bad. I wasn't try to disrespect you.

Well, for starters, my opponents are typically not dogged by me, some I can't really keep pace with.
That's the bit about skill I was mentioning, if you know what you're doing, you don't go into corners full-on the brakes, even with ABS on.

Just like with TCS on you don't just floor the throttle and hope for the best coming out of turns.

Neither ABS or TCS is faster then without in GT5, IMO. The difference is, we can't enforce ABS to any setting, and braking without ABS in GT5 is much different then IRL. I'm sure everyone that can drive without TCS, can drive without ABS, it's just a question of game restrictions, (or in this case, the lack of) and patience.

I've driven GT5 without ABS, I don't find it anymore realistic then driving with it on 1. Both have their faults.
With it on, it's to easy to enter corners to hard on the brakes, you are right, it's just not the fastest way through a turn.
With it off, you just have to learn how far you can push the pedals without locking, much like we all do accelerating out of corners, there is no real "feel" to it.

Oh, and my M3 CSL was spinning like a top, with brake bias at 7/4. If you've ever locked 4 wheels on a car, you'll know they usually can't steer well enough to bring the rear end out, whereas in GT5, you can enter a corner straight, with 4 locked wheels, and somehow the car turns in some anyway, and whips the rear out.
Very unrealistic from what I've experienced, and seen in real world racing.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

lol Mad Max had damn Ford Falcon but it does look cool even if the supercharger was fake.

Mad Max had a Holden too at the very begining of the movie driven by the Nightrider.

On topic though I tried the ABS off again last night with my Ruf CTR2 and ran a better time than ABS1, though this may have to do with having a joystick and not having a wheel at the moment.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

So TCS makes you "faster" as well in your book, yes?

That would depend on the car. TCS is an aid just like ABS which both on removes some of the "risk vs reward" from a sim/game.
IRL you need to remove some of the risk to avoid drivers losing their lives. For example, some of the fantasy tracks in Gt5 and Forza 4 would be too dangerous to use IRL. In sims you can't lose your life (unless you race 4 days solid) so there is less reason to "play it safe".

 

[CSLACR]

That would depend on the car. TCS is an aid just like ABS which both on removes some of the "risk vs reward" from a sim/game.
IRL you need to remove some of the risk to avoid drivers losing their lives. For example, some of the fantasy tracks in Gt5 and Forza 4 would be too dangerous to use IRL. In sims you can't lose your life (unless you race 4 days solid) so there is less reason to "play it safe".

That's not the point.
TCS has been tried and proven slower in GT5 then without.
Why would ABS be any different?

 

[jtv90069]

Mad Max had a Holden too at the very begining of the movie driven by the Nightrider.

On topic though I tried the ABS off again last night with my Ruf CTR2 and ran a better time than ABS1, though this may have to do with having a joystick and not having a wheel at the moment.

I forgot about that car in there, always think of the interceptor and the police cars first.

On fresh tyres ABS on or off doesn't make much difference for me but when the tyres have worn down then i struggle to not lock up the brakes.
Realism wise i would like to see ABS,TCS and ASM in the tuning shop for cars that would not have them stock (Shelby Cobra etc.)

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

That's not the point.
TCS has been tried and proven slower in GT5 then without.
Why would ABS be any different?

Depending on the car TCS is less risky then ABS. Braking is more risky then acceleration and is where a race is won or loss.
P.S With TCS off you can often avoid tire spin by using a higher gear coming out of a corner. Instead of downshifting to second I sometimes downshift to third.

 

[JDMKING13]

Some part of GT5 tuning I really like as in the weight ballast and the power limiter. I run a realistic league with close friends and family, Meaning you have to match up real performance parts up with GT5 system. Even though GT5 system is not the best it still works and in many cases better than FM4. A example would be exhaust upgrade when you upgrade your exhaust in GT5 all you do is buy the exhaust and hit the track, this is not the case how we play. Even though exhaust is to open up more power majority of exhaust are way lighter than the stock exhaust making your car lighter. GT5 doesn't take that into concern. When buying an exhaust in my league you also get to buy the first weight reduction and match the weight to the new exhaust on your car. This method in my opinion makes the car even more unique. Same goes with power upgrades. If you don't get an ECU or piggyback system in my league your car will never be at 100% power level. The more mods you run without and ECU tune you gain less power from the upgrade you would be putting on your car. You can control many of the upgrades in GT5, but you need knowledge and friends that you can trust.

 

[jtv90069]

Some part of GT5 tuning I really like as in the weight ballast and the power limiter. I run a realistic league with close friends and family, Meaning you have to match up real performance parts up with GT5 system. Even though GT5 system is not the best it still works and in many cases better than FM4. A example would be exhaust upgrade when you upgrade your exhaust in GT5 all you do is buy the exhaust and hit the track, this is not the case how we play. Even though exhaust is to open up more power majority of exhaust are way lighter than the stock exhaust making your car lighter. GT5 doesn't take that into concern. When buying an exhaust in my league you also get to buy the first weight reduction and match the weight to the new exhaust on your car. This method in my opinion makes the car even more unique. Same goes with power upgrades. If you don't get an ECU or piggyback system in my league your car will never be at 100% power level. The more mods you run without and ECU tune you gain less power from the upgrade you would be putting on your car. You can control many of the upgrades in GT5, but you need knowledge and friends that you can trust.

Good idea for your league, a suggestion though is use ballast to put most of the weight back on, big difference between a 2-5kg weight reduction and gt5 1st level reduction of about 100kg.

 

[NCRthree]

One more thought on the OP's mod frustration: How accurate can the GT5 mods be when you can gain that SO much horsepower with an oil change? On a brand new car?

 

[elston87]

Though it does come close, Gran Turismo 5 is just a video game; nothing will ever get as close as the actual experience (blunt statement for sure, but it had to be said sometime)...

Although it can be used by some as a prepping tool for racing, driving, or whatever your thing is, a game can only do so much when it comes down to the knee-deep nitty-gritty...

 

[JDMKING13]

Good idea for your league, a suggestion though is use ballast to put most of the weight back on, big difference between a 2-5kg weight reduction and gt5 1st level reduction of about 100kg.

Exactly that what I said in my Quote: When buying an exhaust in my league you also get to buy the first weight reduction and match the weight to the new exhaust on your car. 👍

@ CSLACR You are really down playing how much more Intense GT5 is with ABS off in my opinion, and why so high with the 7/4? that must be a pain to drive on a street car 2-0 or 3-0. If you where in my league you would have to run 3-0

@ zoom I agree with all of your points buddy. 👍

 

[EivlEvo]

I'm not sure what the consensus in this thread is/was... but as someone who uses an ACTUAL simulator almost daily. GT5 is no where near a simulator. Even if you had all of the add ons like wheel, chair, pedals... etc. It doesn't come close.

 

[CSLACR]

Depending on the car TCS is less risky then ABS. Braking is more risky then acceleration and is where a race is won or loss.
P.S With TCS off you can often avoid tire spin by using a higher gear coming out of a corner. Instead of downshifting to second I sometimes downshift to third.

First off, any real racing driver will tell you exit speed is more important then entry speed. So you're horribly wrong there.
Second off, TCS is more risky then ABS? What? I didn't know using either was considered "risky".

Thirdly, you can not downshift entering corners, just as you can upshift early on exit, starting to see how they're exactly the same?

@ CSLACR You are really down playing how much more Intense GT5 is with ABS off in my opinion, and why so high with the 7/4? that must be a pain to drive on a street car 2-0 or 3-0. If you where in my league you would have to run 3-0

If it's realistic as you say, BB should always be 5/5.
Why lower it to make it easier on yourself? Seems contradictory to the point of not using ABS if you ask me.

I ran 7/4 trying to make the front lock first, and while it worked, the car still somehow had turning grip with a locked wheel, which is laughable from what I've seen.

Lastly, tell me how your league would enforce what BB I use, please.
Also tell me how this league would prevent me from changing to ABS 1 for portions of the race, if not the bulk of it?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I'm not sure what the consensus in this thread is/was... but as someone who uses an ACTUAL simulator almost daily. GT5 is no where near a simulator. Even if you had all of the add ons like wheel, chair, pedals... etc. It doesn't come close.

Pics or didn't happen! Nah I kid others will do that.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

First off, any real racing driver will tell you exit speed is more important then entry speed. So you're horribly wrong there.
Second off, TCS is more risky then ABS? What? I didn't know using either was considered "risky".

Exit speed is heavily determined by your braking. If you brake too late and enter the corner too fast your exit speed will be a lot slower. Braking is what sets you up to nail a corner.

 

[Grimmeh]

You kind of missed the point what GT5 as a driving simulator is. It’s a simulator relative to other racing games; in the grand scheme of video games GT5 is a simulator. In terms of calling it a simulator amongst computer simulators, that’s another story.