Can we actually call GT5 a simulator?

[CSLACR]

Exit speed is heavily determined by your braking. If you brake too late and enter the corner too fast your exit speed will be a lot slower. Braking is what sets you up to nail a corner.

That's fine.

Exit speed is the most critical aspect of racing you need to get right.
You do not have to brake on the threshold or even close to get a proper corner exit.

 

[JDMKING13]

First off, any real racing driver will tell you exit speed is more important then entry speed. So you're horribly wrong there.
Second off, TCS is more risky then ABS? What? I didn't know using either was considered "risky".Before we can talk about exit speed and entry speed you need to have great braking technique like those real drivers your talking about. See braking comes before entry speed and exit speed TCS is NOT as risky as driving with out ABS in GT5 I use neither.

Thirdly, you can not downshift entering corners, just as you can upshift early on exit, starting to see how they're exactly the same?
Have no clue what you are talking about, ever since driving with ABS off I have sensation to heel toe to make sure to keep the car balcance while braking and downshifting. Never has that sensation with ABS1 on.

If it's realistic as you say, BB should always be 5/5.
Why lower it to make it easier on yourself? Seems contradictory to the point of not using ABS if you ask me. Come on man really? where do you think I got the information from? Here on GT5, people said it just a generic setting PD has 5-5 look it up if you don't believe me. I have 3 brake settings in my league. 1-0 for a car like a Mazda Miata 89, 2-0 for a Honda S2000 premium version, 3-0 For a ZR-1


I ran 7/4 trying to make the front lock first, and while it worked, the car still somehow had turning grip with a locked wheel, which is laughable from what I've seen. That seem way Aggressive to be a street car but what ever floats your boat. You could run that setting in my league with that car. What is some how you talk so vague? Is some how understeer because that's what I normally get

Lastly, tell me how your league would enforce what BB I use, please.
Also tell me how this league would prevent me from changing to ABS 1 for portions of the race, if not the bulk of it?

You can control many of the upgrades in GT5, but you need knowledge and friends that you can trust.

We trust each other just as my boss trust me to follow his rules when representing my company when im out in the streets. During time attack you can see what assist are on each driver, No assist are allowed. Then I watch every replay to count for damage and dirty play. It's some work but very rewarding and my friends and family love it. You brake a rule we as a group brake you just like any racing league you suffer the consequences.

Edit:

That's fine.

Exit speed is the most critical aspect of racing you need to get right.
You do not have to brake on the threshold or even close to get a proper corner exit.

Another down play, why can't you understand braking happens first, and with poor braking technique who cars about exit speed.

Exit speed is heavily determined by your braking. If you brake too late and enter the corner too fast your exit speed will be a lot slower. Braking is what sets you up to nail a corner.

Yes sir! 👍

 

[CSLACR]

Before we can talk about exit speed and entry speed you need to have great braking technique like those real drivers your talking about. See braking comes before entry speed and exit speed TCS is NOT as risky as driving with out ABS in GT5 I use neither.

Why would using an aid (TCS) be as risky as not using an aid (ABS)?
Surely you mean "not" using TCS, right? (But I highlighted it the first time, and nobody caught it)

Have no clue what you are talking about, ever since driving with ABS off I have sensation to heel toe to make sure to keep the car balcance while braking and downshifting. Never has that sensation with ABS1 on.

Ok. The bulk of GT5 players can't heel and toe.
So that doesn't affect most GT5 players at all, assuming this extra immerson you feel isn't just in your head.

Come on man really? where do you think I got the information from? Here on GT5, people said it just a generic setting PD has 5-5 look it up if you don't believe me. I have 3 brake settings in my league. 1-0 for a car like a Mazda Miata 89, 2-0 for a Honda S2000 premium version, 3-0 For a ZR-1

You can look at it many ways, but the one fact we have, is that in any car you drive in GT5, the original settings are 5/5. 5/5 is stock, lowering the BB makes it harder to lock the wheels due to less braking force.
You're essentially making your own ABS, to drive without ABS.

That seem way Aggressive to be a street car but what ever floats your boat. You could run that setting in my league with that car. What is some how you talk so vague? Is some how understeer because that's what I normally get

Somehow is different then "some how".
I said, with locked front wheels, "somehow" they managed to turn the car.
A car with fully locked front wheels rarely turns at all. In GT5, it was nearly impossible to stop my car from turning with locked front wheels.
That's the significane of a 7/4 setting. At 7/4, obviously front biased, while the front wheels were locked, the car still turned. In fact, it turned more then normal.

We trust each other just as my boss trust me to follow his rules when representing my company when im out in the streets. During time attack you can see what assist are on each driver, No assist are allowed. Then I watch every replay to count for damage and dirty play. It's some work but very rewarding and my friends and family love it. You brake a rule we as a group brake you just like any racing league you suffer the consequences.

So you can't enforce BB settings at all, and you do what you can to enforce ABS at 0.
That's fine, but for 50 lap races, it's not possible to really verify.

Edit:
Another down play, why can't you understand braking happens first, and with poor braking technique who cars about exit speed.

Still missed the point, I give up.
Yes, if you brake to late you crash. Sorry, that's not a revelation, nor is it an ABS/non ABS matter. If you brake to late with ABS, you slide off the track. If you brake to late without ABS, you slide off the track.

When people (racing drivers and teachers) say exit speed is the most important, they assume you're not an incompetent fool that crashes in the first corner, and you have a decent knowledge of how to drive a car around a track.
Spinning like a top into a wall is no better then sliding into one with locked wheels.

Advanced braking technique, is braking as late as possible, and trail braking. Braking early enough to keep from crashing is a "beginners technique" we'll call it lovingly.

And that's the problem, you're mixing novice practices mixed with advanced techniques to try to prove a point.

 

[peter_vod69]

Please man, its "THAN" not "THEN". They are two totally different words!

 

[JDMKING13]

Why would using an aid (TCS) be as risky as not using an aid (ABS)?
Surely you mean "not" using TCS, right? (But I highlighted it the first time, and nobody caught it)


Ok. The bulk of GT5 players can't heel and toe.
So that doesn't affect most GT5 players at all, assuming this extra immerson you feel isn't just in your head. In my head huh? Immersion who said immersion? I said sensation meaning with abs off it makes me feel as I should heel toe to keep the car balanced and prep for the corner.

You can look at it many ways, but the one fact we have, is that in any car you drive in GT5, the original settings are 5/5. 5/5 is stock, lowering the BB makes it harder to lock the wheels due to less braking force.
You're essentially making your own ABS, to drive without ABS.

This is funny, let me ask you ABS comes stock in GT5 as 5, why are you making it 1? looks like your making your own ABS to drive with ABS, see what I did there I'm glad you picked up I'm trying to mimic ABS.

Somehow is different then "some how".
I said, with locked front wheels, "somehow" they managed to turn the car.
A car with fully locked front wheels rarely turns at all. In GT5, it was nearly impossible to stop my car from turning with locked front wheels.
That's the significane of a 7/4 setting. At 7/4, obviously front biased, while the front wheels were locked, the car still turned. In fact, it turned more then normal.


So you can't enforce BB settings at all, and you do what you can to enforce ABS at 0.
That's fine, but for 50 lap races, it's not possible to really verify.
How do you know? Yes it's hard work even though we don't race that many laps the system we run is pretty good. It's all about the people you game with. Also unless you have the DFGT you cannot change the settings in the car while racing.

Still missed the point, I give up.
Yes, if you brake to late you crash. Sorry, that's not a revelation, nor is it an ABS/non ABS matter. If you brake to late with ABS, you slide off the track. If you brake to late without ABS, you slide off the track.Why are you down playing this so much. We are talking about GT5, With ABS on the consequence of braking late is small, with it off in the same situation you are more likey to upset the balance of the car and crash.

When people (racing drivers and teachers) say exit speed is the most important, they assume you're not an incompetent fool that crashes in the first corner, and you have a decent knowledge of how to drive a car around a track.
Spinning like a top into a wall is no better then sliding into one with locked wheels. Another down play how many people are braking at track speed on the street. Braking on the track takes practice and skill. It's nothing like the average guy driving at a cool 60mph then hitting a turn at 50 mph . I bet what instructor experince the most is novice drivers with crappy braking skills.

Advanced braking technique, is braking as late as possible, and trail braking. Braking early enough to keep from crashing is a "beginners technique" we'll call it lovingly.I agree with you, however when talking about GT5 people with ABS1 brake late as possible as an experence driver would do with no technique and small consequences to suffer. I however will tip my hat to those non ABS drivers in GT5 who try to get a realistic braking experience

And that's the problem, you're mixing novice practices mixed with advanced techniques to try to prove a point.What are you talking about? What are you doing when you set ABS1 when you play? Why not leave it at 5? You make it one so you can get a realistic experience. You are down playing the issue in my opinion.

Just my opinion.

 

[Tenacious D]

Once you modify cars in GT5, online racing turns into "who can find the fastest car at this PP level" instead of drivers racing in fairly equal cars. Implementation.
Racing the AI? Don't need mods. Implementation.
Driving by yourself? I don't even like the way cars drive with mods, because you can't add what you want, or how you want it. Implementation / lack of mod options.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. The only other game like GT is Forza. It has a few more options, like selecting performance fuel injection and higher grade spark plugs, engine swaps and drivetrain replacement. But it's as arbitrary as Gran Turismo. You can't set rev limits, tune ECUs or turbos or any of that, and I don't know of any game that does. Heard of a couple, but never really cared to look into it because I don't know enough about automotive engineering.

But in my case, I LOVE modifying cars to some arbitrary standard I set, go to Arcade Mode and do races at Pro, Bot Level 10, and see how I stack up. Online in random rooms, you do have a problem in that some cars will be dominant, though as peter_vod points out, that's just as true in real life. But it's even worse in Forza. If you don't have a leaderboard car and the right mods, all you can do is watch the cars in front of you pull further and further away. You have to find the right group to race with, but that's always been true too. You might hit up JDMKING, which I'm considering.

I've also said a thousand times over, that anything less then $150USD doesn't have anything other then a sponge for a brake pedal, and threshold braking is made much more difficult then reality because of the lack of natural forces at play which tell drivers where the limit is.

So while JDM is on his high-horse about driving without ABS, he should understand all the guys that beat his lap times with ABS, would do exactly the same without it, it's just a matter of having the patience to learn where to put the pedal, as feel has nothing to do with it, unfortunately.

If you mean FFB pedals, then yes you're kind of stuck, there. But in any decent simulation from GT on up, I've been able to immerse myself in the essence of the game so that I can "feel" the boundaries of braking as well as tire grip. Fortunately, I was able to do that in time with Forza 1 or I'd have disowned the series entirely, which offered no FFB at all. It probably helps that I race in my socks. Sexy.

I agree the ABS isn't perfect in GT5, of course. But to think driving without it somehow makes you a better driver? You'd have to be kidding yourself, and like-minded individuals.

No, it really does, because it affects just about everything. If I'm right, and all the aids are on with ABS1, which it feels like, then you also get TC, SRF, ASM and... whatever it is I'm forgetting.

When I first tried it pre-Spec II, it felt subtle, though most likely it was because I was racing tentatively to get a feel for what the car was doing. I never did like wrecking in any racing game, and after a RL wreck last year, I'm even more leery of it. But as I grew more confident and drove more aggressively, I began to notice that I couldn't race the same ways I had before, and had to refine my senses on what my car was doing around turns. I still can't race well without something on, but I'm going to have to wean myself off of them, because a car with no assists is quite a handful.

I think I'm going to have to PM JDMKING about his group and see what they're up to. In the meantime, dhandes has a meet going on saturday afternoons which is very competitive but fun, gentlemanly and easy going. You might peek at the thread in the VIP section near the top. Mike Rotch is hosting this week. Oh, that nick...

By the way, I missed JDM's post above. It does seem like you're missing basic points that should be clear about racing with ABS.

 

[sinbad]

I honestly don't think abs-off turns the physics up another notch, or rather all other hidden aids off.

Abs in gt5, even at 1, gives a very safe feeling, if you brake hard and steer hard simultaneously, the rear remains very stable as the abs keeps them in check and the front outside tyre is pushed to the limit, or slightly over it, causing understeer. It's slower if you have this happen.

Cars turn in better on the brakes with it turned off because the outside front is not allowed to be overloaded by the abs, (as long as you don't lock it up).

Another thing the abs seems incredibly eager to help with is down changes. No amount of early downchanging will slide the rears (rwd car), something which happens easily with it off, even at a zero rear brake balance.

This instability leads to a sense that the car is less assisted in general, but I don't think it is.

That said I should do some more testing. Like the effect of abs when I have my brake balance adjusted for no abs. (Is the abs understeer still there, or will the abs not engage?). And the effect of abs at it's maximum setting. Can't say I've ever seen the point of turning it up.

 

[JDMKING13]

No, it really does, because it affects just about everything. If I'm right, and all the aids are on with ABS1, which it feels like, then you also get TC, SRF, ASM and... whatever it is I'm forgetting. .

Exactly something is wrong with the way PD did with ABS, Did you ever do the NASCAR challenge and leave the ABS on 1? The ASM is still on.

I honestly don't think abs-off turns the physics up another notch, or rather all other hidden aids off.

It doesn't turn them up literally but with ABS off you have to respect the physics and not abuse them like when ABS1 is on.

Abs in gt5, even at 1, gives a very safe feeling, if you brake hard and steer hard simultaneously, the rear remains very stable as the abs keeps them in check and the front outside tyre is pushed to the limit, or slightly over it, causing understeer. It's slower if you have this happen.

Thats the problem ABS is to damn good in GT5 and keeps the driver feeling safe even though they shouldn't if you watch their braking technique.

Another thing the abs seems incredibly eager to help with is down changes. No amount of early downchanging will slide the rears (rwd car), something which happens easily with it off, even at a zero rear brake balance.

Exactly way to easy, I have seen it 100 times people going into turns hot brake hard down shift and nothing happens With it off the balancing factors are huge. 👍

This instability leads to a sense that the car is less assisted in general, but I don't think it is.

So what do you think it is? With ABS 1 there is something going on to help the drivers stay stable.

That said I should do some more testing. Like the effect of abs when I have my brake balance adjusted for no abs. (Is the abs understeer still there, or will the abs not engage?). And the effect of abs at it's maximum setting. Can't say I've ever seen the point of turning it up.

I have already done it, and it feel a little better however something is still wrong. In my opinion ABS off with low braking balance gives a better feeling.

I think I'm going to have to PM JDMKING about his group and see what they're up to. In the meantime, dhandes has a meet going on saturday afternoons which is very competitive but fun, gentlemanly and easy going. You might peek at the thread in the VIP section near the top. Mike Rotch is hosting this week. Oh, that nick...

You are always welcome T 👍 I will PM you later on the format and rules.

 

[jtv90069]

So what do you think it is? With ABS 1 there is something going on to help the drivers stay stable.

Likely a light ESC has been used. Electronic Stability Control is virtually four wheel independent braking.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control
During normal driving, ESC works in the background and continuously monitors steering and vehicle direction. It compares the driver's intended direction (determined through the measured steering wheel angle) to the vehicle's actual direction (determined through measured lateral acceleration, vehicle rotation (yaw), and individual road wheel speeds).

ESC intervenes only when it detects a probable loss of steering control, i.e. when the vehicle is not going where the driver is steering.[26] This may happen, for example, when skidding during emergency evasive swerves, understeer or oversteer during poorly judged turns on slippery roads, or hydroplaning. ESC may also intervene in an unwanted way during high-performance driving, because steering input may not always be directly indicative of the intended direction of travel. ESC estimates the direction of the skid, and then applies the brakes to individual wheels asymmetrically in order to create torque about the vehicle's vertical axis, opposing the skid and bringing the vehicle back in line with the driver's commanded direction. Additionally, the system may reduce engine power or operate the transmission to slow the vehicle down.

ESC can work on any surface, from dry pavement to frozen lakes. It reacts to and corrects skidding much faster and more effectively than the typical human driver, often before the driver is even aware of any imminent loss of control. In fact, this led to some concern that ESC could allow drivers to become overconfident in their vehicle's handling and/or their own driving skills. For this reason, ESC systems typically inform the driver when they intervene, so that the driver knows that the vehicle's handling limits have been approached. Most activate a dashboard indicator light and/or alert tone; some intentionally allow the vehicle's corrected course to deviate very slightly from the driver-commanded direction, even if it is possible to more precisely match it


This sounds similar to how ABS 1 effects the car.

 

[JDMKING13]

Likely a light ESC has been used. Electronic Stability Control is virtually four wheel independent braking.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control
During normal driving, ESC works in the background and continuously monitors steering and vehicle direction. It compares the driver's intended direction (determined through the measured steering wheel angle) to the vehicle's actual direction (determined through measured lateral acceleration, vehicle rotation (yaw), and individual road wheel speeds).

ESC intervenes only when it detects a probable loss of steering control, i.e. when the vehicle is not going where the driver is steering.[26] This may happen, for example, when skidding during emergency evasive swerves, understeer or oversteer during poorly judged turns on slippery roads, or hydroplaning. ESC may also intervene in an unwanted way during high-performance driving, because steering input may not always be directly indicative of the intended direction of travel. ESC estimates the direction of the skid, and then applies the brakes to individual wheels asymmetrically in order to create torque about the vehicle's vertical axis, opposing the skid and bringing the vehicle back in line with the driver's commanded direction. Additionally, the system may reduce engine power or operate the transmission to slow the vehicle down.

ESC can work on any surface, from dry pavement to frozen lakes. It reacts to and corrects skidding much faster and more effectively than the typical human driver, often before the driver is even aware of any imminent loss of control. In fact, this led to some concern that ESC could allow drivers to become overconfident in their vehicle's handling and/or their own driving skills. For this reason, ESC systems typically inform the driver when they intervene, so that the driver knows that the vehicle's handling limits have been approached. Most activate a dashboard indicator light and/or alert tone; some intentionally allow the vehicle's corrected course to deviate very slightly from the driver-commanded direction, even if it is possible to more precisely match it


This sounds similar to how ABS 1 effects the car.

Thanks for that, but that sounds similar to ASM which is associated with ABS in GT5. It say with ABS turned of it disables ASM automatically. This is why with ABS 1 on in the NASCAR event the ASM kicks in slowing you down drastically. I think what you are saying is right but I think we might be getting some help with the ASM with ABS 1 setting.

 

[ChevyMikeGT]

It's not there yet but not far!!!!

 

[jtv90069]

Thanks for that, but that sounds similar to ASM which is associated with ABS in GT5. It say with ABS turned of it disables ASM automatically. This is why with ABS 1 on in the NASCAR event the ASM kicks in slowing you down drastically. I think what you are saying is right but I think we might be getting some help with the ASM with ABS 1 setting.

ASM is locked on for the nascar events. I think you can turn ABS off but ASM will still be on.

 

[JDMKING13]

ASM is locked on for the nascar events. I think you can turn ABS off but ASM will still be on.

That's the trick to beating that event once you turn off ABS ASM is off. With ABS1 on the ASM comes on and slows you down. All you have to do is is read the description of ASM in GT5. It says once abs is disable ASM is automatically off.

Edit went back to the Event and they do not allow you to turn off ABS, I think you can only do it with the DFGT? I remember having it off when doing the event. Just using any car If you leave ASM on and turn ABS off you will see it does not kick in.

 

[EivlEvo]

Pics or didn't happen! Nah I kid others will do that.

Can't do pics. Lol... You can just google and I'm sure something will come up for a CRJ-200.

You kind of missed the point what GT5 as a driving simulator is. It’s a simulator relative to other racing games; in the grand scheme of video games GT5 is a simulator. In terms of calling it a simulator amongst computer simulators, that’s another story.

There's no such thing as a relative simulator. It's either a simulator, or it isn't. There's no gray area. GT5 might be the closest thing you can GET to a simulator, on a video game console. But it's literally light years away from being a simulator.

X-Plane for PC is probably the closest thing you can get to an actual simulator in the "video game" world. And that's still very far off. GT5 is also nowhere CLOSE to having simulator like qualities that you might find in a game like X-Plane.

 

[CSLACR]

Just my opinion.

You should learn how to quote properly.
I'm seriously not dissecting another reply made in that format, sorry.

If I'm right, and all the aids are on with ABS1, which it feels like, then you also get TC, SRF, ASM and... whatever it is I'm forgetting.

You're horribly, horribly wrong.

Honestly, the fact that nobody in this thread has even really questioned this, tells me the level of in-game knowledge you guys have.

So to make this perfectly clear, driving with all aids off except ABS, is driving with all aids off except ABS.
I have driven with ASM, AS, TCS, ABS, and SRF on, all in different varieties, and it's not even comparable.
ASM slows you down if you slide, TCS only lets you spin the wheels so much, AS smooths out jerky steering inputs, and SRF multiplies grip once you start sliding, and doesn't stop giving you extra grip until you stop sliding.

Mind you the ABS in GT5 is a very good ABS, these comments of "you can't slide the rear out from braking with ABS on" are absolutely on a hysterical level of "you couldn't be more wrong guys".

 

[Tenacious D]

You're horribly, horribly wrong.

Well, all I can say is I did the same thing you did, and my conclusion isn't the same. Now it's possible that what's going on with ABS is what's postulated by jtv90069 here:

Likely a light ESC has been used. Electronic Stability Control is virtually four wheel independent braking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control

In which case, if right, then I'm wrong. It would take something sophisticated like this to have the characteristics of a few aids on at once.

 

[bugsbunny]

There's no such thing as a relative simulator. It's either a simulator, or it isn't. There's no gray area. GT5 might be the closest thing you can GET to a simulator, on a video game console. But it's literally light years away from being a simulator.

So which is a real simulator?

 

[peter_vod69]

So which is a real simulator?

I think he's saying that no currently available game is a "sim."

 

[CSLACR]

Well, all I can say is I did the same thing you did, and my conclusion isn't the same. Now it's possible that what's going on with ABS is what's postulated by jtv90069 here:


In which case, if right, then I'm wrong. It would take something sophisticated like this to have the characteristics of a few aids on at once.

You are definitely wrong. The difference is incredibly obvious, and this thread is the first I've even encountered anyone that thinks otherwise.

ESC - Well that would depend on your definition of ESC. Of course, we first must be 100% clear we're talking about something that works only by distributing braking force, and only under wheel lock through braking, at which point, it's definitely an ABS.
An ABS can be programmed in pretty much any way you please. The question is, what should it be like for each car? Rather then model every car's brake systems, PD essentially made the ABS the mack-daddy of all ABS. Maybe that counts as ESC, it is electronic, and it theoretically adds stability.
But it's still just an ABS, because it's sole job is to re-distribute braking force between wheels when it senses wheel lock under braking.

The remarks about not being able to bring the rear out under braking with ABS on? I do it regularly, a bit hard for me to believe anyone saying that has even really driven with ABS properly, or if they always do what they claim "drive into corners full-on the brakes" which is slow and abuses tires, at best.

Since everyone that doesn't use ABS instead changes brake proportioning, they're just making their own ABS, by increasing the amount of pressure needed to lock the wheels.

"It's only real if you don't use ABS, ABS sucks!" "Quick, my wheels are locking to much, let me tweak this proportioning valve my car doesn't come with to keep me from locking the wheels!"

Funny how we all use something or other anyway.

So which is a real simulator?

He's claiming unless something simulates everything he wants it to, it's not a simulator at all.
He doesn't understand that by his definition, no such simulator could ever exist in our current technological world.

to create a simulation, likeness, or model of (a situation, system, or the like): to simulate crisis conditions.
2.
to make a pretense of; feign: to simulate knowledge.
3.
to assume or have the appearance or characteristics of: He simulated the manners of the rich.

Nothing in here mandates a simulator has to be 100% accurate.

GT5 is very much a simulator, the questions are actually, "how good, and in what areas"?

 

[Tenacious D]

You are definitely wrong. The difference is incredibly obvious, and this thread is the first I've even encountered anyone that thinks otherwise.

Actually, this was discussed in the spring, but was before Spec II, so we couldn't adjust our brakes. I just couldn't find a good wad of socks to keep me from locking the wheels , so I decided to wait until Kaz allowed us to get to all the tuning parameters to play with it. And even then, I didn't want to spend a bunch of trials trying to find the right brake balance, so it wasn't until late summer and a vacation that I finally began to experiment.

 

[kilttraeger]

The remarks about not being able to bring the rear out under braking with ABS on? I do it regularly, a bit hard for me to believe anyone saying that has even really driven with ABS properly, or if they always do what they claim "drive into corners full-on the brakes" which is slow and abuses tires, at best.

This. I've set up most of my cars to turn in under breaking, meaning the rear of the car will slide out when entering the corner.

This also works with most MR / RR stock cars. When we are racing with 'tuning prohibited' I simply set the brake balance to 7/7, use the car's inertia help me into a corner.

Rather then model every car's brake systems, PD essentially made the ABS the mack-daddy of all ABS.

This.

I seem to remember racing series in the past (the old DTM for example) which allowed racing ABS. Those racing ABS setups were - following to what the drivers, engineers and commentators said - were not comparable to our daily driver's ABS, but a very no-nonsense setup with the pure aim to decelerate the car as quickly as possible, and not aiming for controllability under full braking.
The GT5 implementation feels like a user friendly implementation of a racing ABS, because we still lose the car on the brakes (or use it's behaviour to our advantage, as described above).

 

[RB6]

So which is a real simulator?

Rev don't listen to that evo guy , he can't even do the r130 in suzuka flat with the f10 online physics, doing r130 on an f1 car in iRacing is an awful lot easier than the F10 online in GT5 and in the rest of Suzuka but the physics of the F10 have just changed and its arcade now , haha because of complaints of too hard to drive , that's dumb to say to a single seater, they obviously don't get the point of a single seater or 2009-2013 regulations. The f2007 was always kept accessible and even quicker , I just don't see why the F10 is now arcade and opposite of what it should be. Its just dumb to see (2.0/2.1) a change that went in the opposite direction and now the F10 nothing but arcade.

He's claiming unless something simulates everything he wants it to, it's not a simulator at all.
He doesn't understand that by his definition, no such simulator could ever exist in our current technological world

correct

 

[CSLACR]

Actually, this was discussed in the spring, but was before Spec II, so we couldn't adjust our brakes. I just couldn't find a good wad of socks to keep me from locking the wheels , so I decided to wait until Kaz allowed us to get to all the tuning parameters to play with it. And even then, I didn't want to spend a bunch of trials trying to find the right brake balance, so it wasn't until late summer and a vacation that I finally began to experiment.

Wut? I've been adjusting my brakes in GT5 since November 24th, 2010. That's one-year today, BTW.

Other then that stand-out sentence, I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.
What was discussed, the belief that ABS turns on other aids secretly behind our backs?

What tuning parameters aside from proper gear tuning have been added to GT5?

You didn't want to test and tune to find a good brake balance, so it wasn't until late summer and a vacation you began to experiment what? Finding a brake balance?

 

[peter_vod69]

Rev don't listen to that evo guy , he can't even do the r130 in suzuka flat with the f10 online physics, doing r130 on an f1 car in iRacing is an awful lot easier than the F10 online in GT5 and in the rest of Suzuka but the physics of the F10 have just changed and its arcade now , haha because of complaints of too hard to drive , that's dumb to say to a single seater, they obviously don't get the point of a single seater or 2009-2013 regulations. The f2007 was always kept accessible and even quicker , I just don't see why the F10 is now arcade and opposite of what it should be. Its just dumb to see (2.0/2.1) a change that went in the opposite direction and now the F10 nothing but arcade.


correct

What the hell are you talking about?

 

[RB6]

What the hell are you talking about?

im talking to reventon10 not yo you.

 

[peter_vod69]

im talking to reventon10 not yo you.

No, you're posting in a thread, there's a difference. Anyway, I was just curious as to what you were on about?

 

[CSLACR]

What the hell are you talking about?

I think he's trying to say they changed the physics of the F10 and that's not a good thing. I don't drive those cars for the most part, so 🤬 if I know.

Why he's posting a rambling about it here, I've no clue.

im talking to reventon10 not yo you.

Actually, as said, you're posting in a public forum. If you want to just speak with only reventon10 click this. otherwise weird people will think your statements were meant to be posted in a public forum.


💡

 

[OK8]

I've no idea what this thread was originally about but saw a good fight about ABS so I decided to pitch in.

If you're aiming for a realistic racing experience you immediately lose half of it when driving with abs 1. After you move that dial from 0 to 1 braking as a whole becomes a simple task of flooring the pedal whenever you want to slow down. Technically there's no point in ever being on less than full brakes. When braking for corners just look for your braking point and stomp your foot on the pedal. Even if you brake a bit later you can still save it by just holding it down and turning in.

I agree with JDMKing and others who say ABS does more than just stop you locking up the brakes. I did a test with a stock yellowbird sports hard tyres and wet track, very hard conditions and turning in with full brakes was actually easier than turning in with no power at all. When the ABS is active the car as a whole becomes much more stable. I urge anyone who says ABS doesn't apply other aids to try this.

As a result I race cars with no abs always even if they have ABS in real life, given that I can adjust the brake balance towards the front (which you can't do in one make rooms and shuffle rooms. In those rooms I use ABS and every time I'm baffled at how monotonous braking feels with it).

And to people who say the brakes have no feel I've no idea how you can say that. Coming out of Schwedenkreuz on the Nordschleife I immediately start pumping the brake pedal, constantly going over the limit and then coming back again to find optimal brake performance. When I'm over the limit I see the cockpit start to shake I hear the tyres screaming I see the rate at which the revs drop and I feel the back squirming with FFB. If the fronts lock you immediately feel the wheel go soft and you lose all turning grip.

It's not a matter of finding the limit, marking it with a ruler and then moving your foot to 1mm from that limit and holding it steady there, you have to work around the limit while still keeping the car steady (and downshifting at the same time, very stimulating). You don't need a 500€ pedalset made from materials used on the international space station, just good resistance from the pedal so you can make slight adjustments easily (for which my G25 pedals are good enough, and so are cheaper pedals if you just increase the resistance somehow (https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=164208 for example).

You should understand, just because you drive with ABS on, does not mean the ABS has to engage.
I try to avoid engaging my ABS, because it slows you down a bit in GT5, and is harder on tires.

It engages the second you touch the brakes. If you could distinctly feel when the ABS is restricting brake power to stop the wheels from locking (see LFS's ABS) I'd understand what you mean but this is not the case. Having ABS at 1 completely changes the way cars behave under braking.

Thirdly, you can not downshift entering corners

What?

If it's realistic as you say, BB should always be 5/5.

Do real cars have 50% 50% brake balance? No they do not. For some reason PD decided to have 5/5 as a default value but that means nothing. You can still change it in rooms that prohibit tuning.

I ran 7/4 trying to make the front lock first, and while it worked, the car still somehow had turning grip with a locked wheel, which is laughable from what I've seen.

In prologue you could turn with locked wheels but in the current version of GT5 it's hard for me to see how you can make such a claim. Besides 7/4 is still enough to make the rears lock very easily which makes braking in a racing situation very difficult.

It's not my wet dream to see you come back saying "Oh you were so right I'm never using ABS again. Praise the OK8!" in fact I don't even care when people use it since I rarely feel I've lost to someone because he had ABS and I didn't. I just wanted to point out that if you want to make the experience as realistic as possible you're missing quite a bit by using ABS.

Also I agree with JDMKing about ABS teaching racers bad habits when braking. Many people I've discussed with have said they've improved their braking habits and their driving in general after learning to drive without ABS since it just doesn't allow for mistakes like having ABS does, which in itself is a testament on how it is and aid just as TC ASM and SFR.

 

[JDMKING13]

I've no idea what this thread was originally about but saw a good fight about ABS so I decided to pitch in.

If you're aiming for a realistic racing experience you immediately lose half of it when driving with abs 1. After you move that dial from 0 to 1 braking as a whole becomes a simple task of flooring the pedal whenever you want to slow down. Technically there's no point in ever being on less than full brakes. When braking for corners just look for your braking point and stomp your foot on the pedal. Even if you brake a bit later you can still save it by just holding it down and turning in.

I agree with JDMKing and others who say ABS does more than just stop you locking up the brakes. I did a test with a stock yellowbird sports hard tyres and wet track, very hard conditions and turning in with full brakes was actually easier than turning in with no power at all. When the ABS is active the car as a whole becomes much more stable. I urge anyone who says ABS doesn't apply other aids to try this.

As a result I race cars with no abs always even if they have ABS in real life, given that I can adjust the brake balance towards the front (which you can't do in one make rooms and shuffle rooms. In those rooms I use ABS and every time I'm baffled at how monotonous braking feels with it).

And to people who say the brakes have no feel I've no idea how you can say that. Coming out of Schwedenkreuz on the Nordschleife I immediately start pumping the brake pedal, constantly going over the limit and then coming back again to find optimal brake performance. When I'm over the limit I see the cockpit start to shake I hear the tyres screaming I see the rate at which the revs drop and I feel the back squirming with FFB. If the fronts lock you immediately feel the wheel go soft and you lose all turning grip.

It's not a matter of finding the limit, marking it with a ruler and then moving your foot to 1mm from that limit and holding it steady there, you have to work around the limit while still keeping the car steady (and downshifting at the same time, very stimulating). You don't need a 500€ pedalset made from materials used on the international space station, just good resistance from the pedal so you can make slight adjustments easily (for which my G25 pedals are good enough, and so are cheaper pedals if you just increase the resistance somehow (https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=164208 for example).


It engages the second you touch the brakes. If you could distinctly feel when the ABS is restricting brake power to stop the wheels from locking (see LFS's ABS) I'd understand what you mean but this is not the case. Having ABS at 1 completely changes the way cars behave under braking.


What?


Do real cars have 50% 50% brake balance? No they do not. For some reason PD decided to have 5/5 as a default value but that means nothing. You can still change it in rooms that prohibit tuning.


In prologue you could turn with locked wheels but in the current version of GT5 it's hard for me to see how you can make such a claim. Besides 7/4 is still enough to make the rears lock very easily which makes braking in a racing situation very difficult.

It's not my wet dream to see you come back saying "Oh you were so right I'm never using ABS again. Praise the OK8!" in fact I don't even care when people use it since I rarely feel I've lost to someone because he had ABS and I didn't. I just wanted to point out that if you want to make the experience as realistic as possible you're missing quite a bit by using ABS.

Also I agree with JDMKing about ABS teaching racers bad habits when braking. Many people I've discussed with have said they've improved their braking habits and their driving in general after learning to drive without ABS since it just doesn't allow for mistakes like having ABS does, which in itself is a testament on how it is and aid just as TC ASM and SFR.

Finally some one who can relate to how I feel. I'm 100% with you on all the point you made. I am really baffled ON how he can say ABS 0 doesn't make the experience a lot better. You need no braking skill with abs 1 on, the car stays stable even with poor braking skills. I would love to create a room one make race with all assist off and see the results. Great post OK8. 👍 I will say it again If you play GT5 with ABS you are missing a lot from the experience. My favorite part is in bold I said the same thing. Playing with ABS 0 makes me feel like I have a new GT5.

 

[NotSoSilentBob]

Simulation is the imitation of some real thing available, state of affairs, or process. The act of simulating something generally entails representing certain key characteristics or behaviours of a selected physical or abstract system. - Taken from Wikipedia.

The Gran Turismo Series SIMULATES driving a car with a tuning addition. Yes it is a SIMULATOR. Thread closed.