Do you still support PD?

[Frozzy]

I am pretty sure everyone was disappointed with GT5, even Kaz himself.

Let's just hope they redeem themselves with GT6.

 

[dylansan]

I am pretty sure everyone was disappointed with GT5, even Kaz himself.

👍

This is the truest thing I think I've seen said about GT5. People blame Kaz and say he doesn't care about us for releasing a flawed game, and even if he could be blamed, it was certainly not intentional. He tried to make everyone happy, but in the end it fell short. I have a lot of sympathy for him because of that. He's doing something he's feels passionate about, and doesn't deserve to feel guilty about it.

 

[Authentic718]

So basically release a new GT5 Prologue every year?

That's what I'm against.

 

[jabofu]

Like I said, "make it like another game". Is it that Forza does it that much better? Is it this inferiority complex of "they have it, why don't we?". Or is it that the forbidden fruit tastes much more sweet?

Trying to morph the game into another one only make the case of homogenization stronger. Copying a game "100%" is never a good idea, mainly because it's no longer your game, and the creative process is diluted. If they had copied those aspects of Forza "100%" like you claim they should have, then I have the distinct feeling that you'd be claiming the game was now "unoriginal" and a clone. It's a lose-lose scenario (note the spelling).

Another thing I think is happening is that gamers don't know how to deal with aspects of a game they don't like. A game doesn't have a certain feature, or if it's not done well and there seems to be this feeling of "AAAAAAAAAAAAAH THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! THIS GAME IS UNFINISHED AND BROKEN!!". Maybe you didn't like it? Is that so outrageous to believe? It seems as though there's only two extremes. Perfection and beyond horrible. If you think about it, video games are predicated on only two choices. Good or evil. Black or white. Offense or defense. There's no grey area, and I think it's skewed perceptions.

Gamers are a strange beast. Like I said, it's gotten to the point where they are impossible to satisfy, and the internet now gives them a soapbox on which they're in a state of perpetual outrage.

You can't adapt this to simulation headed games like GT and Forza or simracers on the pc. Fun modes like Tag, Virus or car football are some different things. Car tuning, customization and painting should be real.

Every race car or car that participate in motorsport has a livery most of the time. You cant put a single sticker on your car in GT5, not realistic. When there is an option in real life to customize the car, it should be in a game like GT or Forza. I am not talking about NOS, backfire or neon lights, because they are mostly illegal in the world anyway.

I dont see the hate against the customization from some around here, because you wont get forced to paint your Ferrari pink and put stickers on it. To have the free choice is key here and if GT would offer a realistic and way better customization, we would see less people playing NFS for this reason.

With adding new features and more options a game doesnt lose its originality and soul. Forza still is Forza with the third iteration and havent been turned in some NFS style game, because of the wide customization.

 

[homeforsummer]

They can have there 5 weeks annual leave in one block if they want.

How long do you think they deserve off?

I've been working 25yrs with just 5 weeks off average a year. (physical labour)
Around another 25 to go. 28 if the government gets it's way before I get to retire.

How much rest do they need?

Given that you probably weren't doing reported 18-odd hour days (or longer) towards the end, sleeping at the office, and don't have the whole world constantly moaning at you for the last six years of their work, they probably need more leave than you do.

Not to mention that they need a head start on GT6 so it doesn't take another six years.

 

[Spagetti69]

Given that you probably weren't doing reported 18-odd hour days (or longer) towards the end, sleeping at the office, and don't have the whole world constantly moaning at you for the last six years of their work, they probably need more leave than you do.

Not to mention that they need a head start on GT6 so it doesn't take another six years.

Not my Fault if they break the working time directive. 11 hours rest in a day. 24 hours off in a week.

If they are working them hours then there employer doesn't give a damn about there welfare.

Also they shouldnt get away with forcing there employees to work them hours.

A bigger case to argue to take on more staff.

 

[krioto]

Well, I'm still playing this every day almost a year after release, so yes I guess.

 

[robbo6]

Frankly, I'd rather be a dummyhead and think for myself than join a flock of angry lemmings who can't sit still unless GT5 is flamed unmercifully.

Personally I think those more akin to "lemmings" are the sheeple who are blindly supporting GT5 and not supporting ideas to improve the game.

 

[Griffith500]

Not my Fault if they break the working time directive. 11 hours rest in a day. 24 hours off in a week.

If they are working them hours then there employer doesn't give a damn about there welfare.

Also they shouldnt get away with forcing there employees to work them hours.

A bigger case to argue to take on more staff.

Except that what you may not realise is that "crunch time" is planned for in most games development cycles. That is, it's not included as a possible contingency, it's put there as part of "Plan A". It's really not fair on the employees (who generally expect it), and is common across certain types of software (games in particular) production. The problem is, if you complain, there are plenty of people willing to take your place. At least that's how it is here; in Japan, they have a crazy work ethic anyway. Although I'm sure that's still being exploited to a certain extent.

So what do they do? You're right, the management needs a kick in the balls, but who's going to do that? Should we? Take out crunch time and our games take longer and / or look worse, have fewer features, possibly play worse and may even cost more to make. It's like all other evils in industry; it's driven by demand and exercised by the desire to make a profit.

 

[noisiaturismo]

I like it better then the others, others have less cars, no online, no collecting rare cars, no premiums, and they have standards too. My PS2 couldn't handle GT4 and i can't care because i have GT3, MotoGP, and many more games + a wheel. Can't care what others arguments against the game are.

 

[Spagetti69]

So what do they do? You're right, the management needs a kick in the balls, but who's going to do that? Should we? Take out crunch time and our games take longer and / or look worse, have fewer features, possibly play worse and may even cost more to make. It's like all other evils in industry; it's driven by demand and exercised by the desire to make a profit.

Let the games look worse if that's what it takes. What then? The games don't sell and they have to review their working practises.

Unscrupulous employers are a cancer anyhow.

We still have 4yr old up chimneys if no one stood up to them.

I don't see any excuse for overworking and putting mental stress on employees.

In this country if an employer breaks the working time directive they can be held responsible.
Certain jobs are exempt and local agreements can be made.

Anyway I was just interested in how much time off homeforsummer thought they deserved. (with full pay I assume).

 

[spunwicked]

Give me a job at Polyphony, sure would beat the 70+ hours a week I work anyway, with no days off

 

[Griffith500]

Let the games look worse if that's what it takes. What then? The games don't sell and they have to review their working practises.

Unscrupulous employers are a cancer anyhow.

We still have 4yr old up chimneys if no one stood up to them.

I don't see any excuse for overworking and putting mental stress on employees.

In this country if an employer breaks the working time directive they can be held responsible.
Certain jobs are exempt and local agreements can be made.

Anyway I was just interested in how much time off homeforsummer thought they deserved. (with full pay I assume).

Agreed. Although, I don't think we're in any position to dictate how much time off they should have, not really. It's up to them. It looks like they're ready to start picking things up again now, so hopefully the office move is mostly sorted and we can get some new stuffs!

@spunwicked It'd be great to have a job where working that much didn't feel like "work". I think that may be the case for some people in games production, but that's not to say it doesn't have it's bad times, I'm sure.

 

[RoadRunner99]

As
Long
We
Are
Yamauchi
Supporters

This game has a soul and I can feel it.

 

[spunwicked]

It does have a soul... the sheer number of man hours that went into GT5 must be incredible. You can feel it. I just wish they would hurry up with Spec II!

 

[Turkey :D]

I will support PD once they allow fans in on the design process. I feel that from GT5, Kaz may have his game, but we do not.

 

[BubbleBelly542]

I will support PD once they allow fans in on the design process. I feel that from GT5, Kaz may have his game, but we do not.

Name 5 games that have fans "in on" the design process.

The feedback section on here is pretty close to being part of design because we reccomend things for then to add.

But it's just my opinion that it's nice that PD actually sees some of what we want on GTP and incorporate it in the game sometimes.

 

[Raitziger]

Name 5 games that have fans "in on" the design process.

Forza 3 had but it was not very good despite that

 

[Tornado]

The feedback section on here is pretty close to being part of design because we reccomend things for then to add.

But it's just my opinion that it's nice that PD actually sees some of what we want on GTP and incorporate it in the game sometimes.

There's a big leap of logic being made here.

 

[JayDW]

Come on PD, only If they could add a little bit more customization to the game. They don't have to go all NFS on the customization, but add more than what we got.

 

[shirakawaa]

There's a big leap of logic being made here.

I'll quickly analyze what has been allegedly implemented so far from feedbacks:

Online garage filtering

Same filtering functions as in GT mode should be in car selection when you're in online lobby.

Why wasn't it as in the GT Mode in the first place anyway?

Online physics should match offline physics.

They still don't.

Should be able to flick through the entire garage online, rather than have to select the optimum 100. I like all my cars!

Something that PD should have figured out in a few days of game play during beta testing.

Symbol for cars that I already have (in the UCD)

As above, or did they really think that users would have been able to remember all cars in their garage? (or worse, continuously go back and forth to/from the garage to check?)

Fix error 0x00000015 [217]

When this error message will appear in the screen, GT5 won´t start anymore. All the time and effort spent with the game is for ever lost. Time to start GT5 all over again. Please fix this and other similar bugs. Watch out for saved files larger than 4160 kB.

Proper beta testing would have prevented this. This isn't really a suggestion or request for a new feature though. It's a bug.

Fix blurry smoke!

The way the smoke causes blurry edges on the car is the most horrendously ugly graphical flaw I have seen in a PS3 game.

Again, probably something they fixed due to embarassment rather than public demand.

Adjustable ECU's allowing power to be easily adjusted to meet race regulations.

Because engine power output changes with use it would be handy to be able to limit the power with the ECU. I hate it when I buy and tune a car for an online event, then after 2 races the power creeps above the limit and I can no longer use the car.

This falls again under the "obvious usability issues".
By the way, PD's implementation of the "power limiter" has nothing to do with real intake flanging/power restricting systems.

"Are you sure you would like to restart"

I'm sick of accidently restarted endurance races, this would help a lot if it had "are you sure you want to restart"

Again, obvious usability issues.

Performance Point System (like in GT5 Prolouge)

For Online Races, 2Player Races and maybe the GT-Mode..

As stated, it was something that already was in Prologue and for unknown reason it didn't make it in GT5.

Having the ability to watch and save replays from races played in split-screen multiplayer.

Again from the "unexpectedly missing, previously implemented features" department.

Multi screen support

Have multi screen support in GT5 like there is on GT4 and Forza.

As above.

Customize Induvidual Gear Ratios

It's a mystery that this haven't been fixed yet.

As above. By the way, gear ratio customization still retains the same bugs it had in GT4 (limited ratio range for each gear exploitable with the auto-tune setting, gear chart that makes little sense, etc)

ballast weight

The ability to add ballast to cars, for adding extra weight to cars for regulations purposes or as a complement to handicap systems.

If you got a car that weight 1185 kg and the regulations demands a wieight of 1200, you can add the extra weight to enter the event.

As above. It was already in GT4.

Ability to use course maker tracks online

They were supposed to be able to be used online since the beginning.

 

[homeforsummer]

Not my Fault if they break the working time directive. 11 hours rest in a day. 24 hours off in a week.

If they are working them hours then there employer doesn't give a damn about there welfare.

Also they shouldnt get away with forcing there employees to work them hours.

A bigger case to argue to take on more staff.

Japan is not Wales.

Different country, different regs. Not that that has anything to do with what we're discussing. For one we're not talking a bunch of people forced against their will to steadily crank out sweaters or Nike trainers, we're talking a bunch of developers absolutely dedicated to their job putting in the hours to get it finished.

 

[Spagetti69]

18 hour days/sleeping in the workplace.
Probably easier to make sweatshirts lol.

 

[Tenacious D]

That being said, GT5 is still a great simulator. If all you want is to have tons of car to drive, then its a great simulator.

Well gee, take away 97% of the cars - restricted to race cars, and you have a PC sim. This hasn't seemed to dampen the enthusiasm for them whatsoever. Heck, there are people here who paid more than $200 to play iRacing this year.

But yeah, GT5 does need a hefty patch that changes the game dramatically. Of course, this is undoubtedly GT6. But as I said in a previous post, if the game is as bad as some of you are saying it is, why are you still here posting nothing but complaints? The game is what it is, and GT6 isn't going to show up out of the blue this holiday season, so I say race or bail.

I am pretty sure everyone was disappointed with GT5, even Kaz himself.

Let's just hope they redeem themselves with GT6.

👍

This is the truest thing I think I've seen said about GT5. People blame Kaz and say he doesn't care about us for releasing a flawed game, and even if he could be blamed, it was certainly not intentional. He tried to make everyone happy, but in the end it fell short. I have a lot of sympathy for him because of that. He's doing something he's feels passionate about, and doesn't deserve to feel guilty about it.

Well, this is the unfortunate consequence of an age in which flaming is the new "communication." The net is flooded with pretty thoughtless, brain deficient brats, and you're lucky to have a civil discussion about GT5, Kaz or PD without some idiot coming along and using text speak to rant something obscene. And a few guys here can get surprisingly angry in the course of a thread. But I have to reiterate, if you don't have anything to post but in essence, "This game sux," I think it's time for your sake as well as ours that you move on.

I'm counting on Kaz getting enough positives from us to be upbeat about the future work. I just hope when he decides to experiment with GT6, it's along the lines of a Livery Editor and full on Race Mod for most every car.

I dont see the hate against the customization from some around here, because you wont get forced to paint your Ferrari pink and put stickers on it. To have the free choice is key here and if GT would offer a realistic and way better customization, we would see less people playing NFS for this reason.

This fear many have of a full on Livery Editor really baffles me. I can't imagine how anyone could have an ulcer knowing that there's a Hello Kitty Enzo out in the intranets somewhere. Guys, hate to break it to you, but this happens in real life. Don't cut yourselves.

A Livery Editor, Storefront and several other real life additions which Forza has done pretty darn well can only explode the enthusiasm of Gran Turismo, and get people to jump in from those other game franchises.

Personally I think those more akin to "lemmings" are the sheeple who are blindly supporting GT5 and not supporting ideas to improve the game.

Yeah, sure. Talking to the wrong guy here, pal.

I've been critical of the weird stuff in GT5 since release. You must have missed my rants about the XP system and a paint shop with no freaking paint, or how gimped A-Spec is with many tracks missing of the bunch they made for the game being used in it. But I figure that after a few weeks of it, PD got the message and they would deal with it or not. And so far, my gripes are still there. At that point, it's time to quit being a beach about it and move on.

There's a huge diff between criticizing things and just being a flame tard that won't shut up.

 

[vandaliser]

PD gaves us the greatest racing series ever. Sure they are not 100% perfect but who is?

Besides they win because of one thing. The nurbugring. Epic track with epic weather effects! They deserve my £40 just for that

 

[CaptainHarlock]

I will support PD once they allow fans in on the design process. I feel that from GT5, Kaz may have his game, but we do not.

I've always said that allowing the "fans" in on the design process, is like if I started telling Paul McCartney how to make records. He'd say to me "that's great kid, tell me something; how many hit records have YOU had?".

The inherent problem is this; with thousands upon thousands of ideas that would be submitted, which ones do you listen to? If you implement one thing that one person likes, chances are that there's a lot of others who won't like it. The other thing is how many of these ideas are going to be usable? Or even good? I know gamers always log onto message boards and proclaim "I HAVE THE GREATEST IDEA EVER!!", well maybe that idea of yours isn't as good as you think it is.

Design by committee doesn't work. And design by internet committee is an especially horrible idea. If you start to allow gamers in on the design process, the game would become unfocused, and a jumbled mess. Give creative people the freedom to create without interference. They've earned that right.

 

[mr_serious]

What is it about 'supporting' corporate entities? I don't support PD in the same way I don't support any corporate entity.

I am one of those who is so disappointed with GT5 that I no longer play it at all. I try occassionaly but it just doesn't do it for me even though the GT series has been the sole reason I bought a PS1, two PS2s and my PS3.

I prefer another game at the moment which might not feel quite as realistic to drive BUT it gets my head into the racing mindset much better than GT5. It really makes me feel that I am competing on the track again. Every corner is a struggle for grip & traction and passing the competition takes more than a single out-braking manouvre. Once you're in front you sometimes have to drive defensively to maintain the lead and a small mistake (touch the gravel, grass, take too much of the wrong curb or bump another car) will almost certainly lose you the lead and perhaps wreck your car.

But just because I like that other game more right now in no way indicates that I support EA or SMS, just as my ownership of all the GT games doesn't mean I support PD.

I am pretty annoyed that I pre-ordered GT5 and got something that was so below par especially compared to the calibre of PDs previous releases.

Will I buy GT6? It depends completely on what they implement & how well they do it. I am worried that the philosphical direction PD are taking GT is no longer in tune with what I want from a racing game. So I won't be pre-ordering GT6. I'll rent it see if it is good or really annoying and decide from there.

The one thing I think PD really do do better than any of the competition is support the game long after the release date. When I think of how poor GT5p was out of the box, and how good it was after all the updates, it gives me some hope for GT5. Although I doubt they can patch out (or in) the things I personally want for the game.

The game I mentioned earlier is very buggy although I seem to have been luckier than many in that regard. But EA & SMS have dropped support and no more patches will be forthcoming, making it unplayable for some of their customers. I don't think PD would ever do that.

Livery Editor
I am 100% convinced that the lack of decent livery editor in any game on the PS3 is a Sony decision rather than the individual software houses. Sony don't want people to be able to produce 'offensive' liveries.

If you've ever tried text chatting with a friend on the PS3 you'll notice Sony censor an incredible amount of words across the entire network - including some very surprising ones. I think because of this attitude Sony has they force developers to cripple any attempts at a decent livery editor.

Still, I'm amused how many people who think GT is a pile of poo have still taken the time to join a GT forum. Must be like people who complain how much rubbish there is on TV, but still watch it all day.

People keep bringing this up no matter how many times I and others tell you. It is because we care. We've all been fans of previous GTs and had great expectations of GT5 - I have been promoting GT to my friends for years for PD so the disappointment feels very personal. I know they can do much better. For whatever reasons (probably a great many) something went seriously wrong with the development of GT5. The GT series has been a huge part of my life for years, so much so that I can't just say "oh this is rubbish, I'll bin that and never think of it again". I don't want PD to repeat the numerous mistakes in GT5 for GT6.

 

[analog]

I've always said that allowing the "fans" in on the design process, is like if I started telling Paul McCartney how to make records. He'd say to me "that's great kid, tell me something; how many hit records have YOU had?".

I get your point and just implementing whatever is most requested could potentially ruin the balance or change the game beyond recognition (which actually might not necessarily be a bad thing though).

But the Paul McCartney example you gave is missing the mark a bit in my opinion since he's imagining and creating things which didn't exist before and are mostly abstract.
If GT5 were a fantasy/science fiction game where the whole visual style and gameplay were the product of a certain artistic vision you buy into or not, you could indeed say, let the artist make the art without the admirer/consumer interfering with the creative process (unless it's part of that creative vision).

Ofcourse GT5 is also in a way an artistic vision, yet this vision is aimed at replicating things that exist already in real life (or at least in some cases could theoretically exists, like fantasy cars/tracks) so any suggestions made by fans aren't directly interfering with the style or the imagination of an artist but mainly about the choices being made regarding content and gameplay aspects with the same aim of creating the best sim possible in their eyes.
I think it's safe to say most here have a final vision of the ultimate GT-game which may actually not be that different from the one Kaz visions (although largely without the talent/means to do so), unlike a fantasy game or any work of art which requires a true imaginative mind and where there are so many possibilities it really needs one vision to come to fruition coherently.

It wouldn't hurt PD if they listen to the requests/suggestions made by their consumers (which they already seem to do) since a videogame in many ways shares aspects with works of art yet differs in just as many ways too.
Unlike a music record you passively consume (and which hypothetically doesn't 'need' a listener to be played), a videogame let's you participate in its content, making you an essential part of the product so it's perhaps logical to expect feedback to make the experience better since it's also foremost a product aimed to please.
A music record doesn't always aim to please (it could aim to stir other emotions or question certain issues for example) and even the collected work of the Beatles didn't cost as much to produce as a single GT-game so thinking it's purely a creative vision without big corporate backing and interests is a bit naive.

 

[vandaliser]

pd gave everything the fans wanted.

rally. check.
nascar. check.
top gear. check
night racing. check
dynamic weather. check
lobbies. check
damage. check

Seriously if you are not satisfied, then put your mouth where your money is and go play other games. GT is not the only driving sim out there.

 

[Spagetti69]

pd gave everything the fans wanted.

Such a blanket statement is False. Come on!