Do you still support PD?

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I'm not sure what you mean when you said "sleeping in their working quarters"
Japanese game developers tend to literally live at the office while they are working on games.

In fact, back when GT4 was fairly close to wrapping up development (I think it was TGS 2004, and the X-Play staff were in Japan for the expo), Sessler took a tour of the PD offices specifically and noted how many of the development staff hollowed out their desks and just slept underneath them (like in that one episode of Seinfeld) rather than go home.
 
Someone taking KY place? No that would more than likely result as a bad move.

Can't be much worse than how things are going now. GT5 is already a jumbled mess that doesn't even know what the word "identity" means. It's already wasted, what, 3 three licenses on minimal effort...if any at all.

I'm not sure what you mean when you said "sleeping in their working quarters" lol give them a break they're working hard :).

I mean instead of taking a break or venting as you think they do, some (or all, I can't remember) of the employees actually sleep in the office as opposed to venturing home.

EDIT: Tree'd on the above point.
 
Which makes even less sense when you consider Kazunori is on the Board of Directors. He could have easily passed the task off to some third-party developer and just collaborate with whomever from time to time whilst still focusing core effort on GT5. They (PD) either need to get someone to take assume Kazunori's place at the company or learn how to better manage their available resources.

Being able to boast of how many side projects you finished isn't something worth doing when your core product suffers as a result.




That would be a point worth making if the staff weren't already sleeping in their working quarters. So, that's not really a counter argument whatsoever, in fact, it's actually counter-intuitive.



Are you referring to 3 or 4 here?
I think they are doing a good job managing the resources for a normal sized development company, similar to Naughty Dog. They are Playstation’s brands biggest selling franchise, on PS1, PS2 and PS3. The total side project sales would still put PD close to the top or right at the top even if they did not decide to not release the core product.

I think the extra hours the staff put in bridges the gap somewhat against rival platform developers such as Turn 10. Turn 10 had as many people working on the game as PD back in 2001 and I think they constantly had at least twice as many people working on the game. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Forza 3 had two or three times the man hours put in the game compared to GT5. Turn 10 has 40 more people working on the cars for Forza 4 than the entire PD development studio, it is hardly a fair fight considering they also had as much development time but with a lot more people.

So once again, a comparison to what another company achieved in 2 years, vs what PD accomplished in 4-6 years?
Ironically some of the issues you list are things PD couldn't be bothered to even attempt to put in their game, while the statement "an online system which is gimped compared to its predecessor" can in many ways also be said of GT5.

So if you wish to compare apples to apples, try to include timeframe, even if you're stuck on speculation of development time for TT and GTPSP, at the very least it's 4 years development time, though the underlying truth will always be "6 years between GT4 and GT5", no matter how many other games PD makes, it took 6 years from GT4's release date to release GT5's.
I don’t get why people use one rule for one and another rule for another. Why the double standards. Can you tell me why the other company only spent 2 years. The fact of the matter is PD have released more games than their rival platform developer, with a lot less staff in the last 6 years and sold twice as much. GT PSP had 5 years of development time too using that logic and combined since GT4, PD have probably had over 14 years of development time for the games they released yet we are only in 2011. If you use the rule of last game to the latest game released as development time then that would put GT5 to about 1 year or 2-3 years if we are talking about the PS3 platform. Sure GT5 was being worked on since 6 years ago but that could be said about a lot of other gaming franchises. It takes many years for some ideas to get implemented and sometimes get cut until the next game when they have got it implemented / working better.



To answer the thread title, yes I still support PD, I think all they need is as much staff as their rival and they would make GT shine brighter than ever. However I don’t know how likely it is for PD to grow 3-4 times the size to match the development team size of their rival. They are at the moment have their resources spread out too thin and they most likely will develop GT for PS Vita so that is an added strain on the development resources. I think realistically we can expect maybe PD to grow staff levels to 200 but when they do, the rival will probably have about 600 working on their next game so it is hard to compete when you are outnumbered by so much. PD are just the same size in terms of numbers of people working on the game as any other top first party studio for Playstation so it will be hard to grow to the size of three other ones. I doubt Sony will allow it. Anyway they are ahead of any other racing game out there in terms of number of cars with full interior views, that will change with Forza 4 but they are doing reasonably well. Sure there are some strange design issues with GT5 but I think that was more due to the game being left to be the last thing to be done as the main components is what takes the longest to do. The patches show how rushed it was and I can understand why. If GT6 is more of the same then I think it will be the time to question their priorities and decision making after a lot of feedback from GT5.
 
The fact of the matter is PD have released more games than their rival platform developer, with a lot less staff in the last 6 years and sold twice as much.
Sales mean absolutely nothing in the context of this discussion, and it would be better for everyone if they would stop being brought up.
 
Sales mean absolutely nothing in the context of this discussion, and it would be better for everyone if they would stop being brought up.

They still released more games to retail in the same time frame regardless of sales. It is not like GT5 is the first game they released since GT4, I mean they released a bike game 2 years later.

The main thing is though who supports PD, I do and there is no other game on consoles that does what I'm interested in as good as the GT series for me. This obviously differs from person to person. I can understand the shortcomings of GT and I'm a realist. It would take a good 8 years to get most of the standard cars in GT5 to Premium level. I don't expect it to change massively unless PD invest even more money into the series to make that transition happen quicker. For the size of the GT project, PD are too small but they are a decent sized development company who are doing their best given the limited man power they have. I think the GT series is looking bright for the long term as most of the building blocks are in place for future GTs to improve the game element and also make everything more streamlined.
 
Polyphony deserve support. You can tell making gran turismo is their passion and soul. They crammed alot of content into this game. Like saidur ali has said, the project was too big for them. There is not enough employees. But you cant fault their effort and drive. I mean where else would you sleep at your desks. Japan has already got a long working hour culture anyways.

And big respect to kaz. Apart from being a super developer, he's humble to boot. You won't see him crowing about his achievements, taking pot shots at the competition. Infact i remember him begging for GT fans forgiveness because of frame rate drops when you have 16 cars in a bottleneck when it's raining. I mean who else does that?

whatever the rabid minority thinks of kaz or PD, i am glad that sony higher ups continue to appreciate all things kaz and also the GT fans judging by the sales of this game. And after more than a decade of this series, it remains no suprise to see it is the highest selling first party game. And it will continue to do so as long as PD focuses on what they do best.

The moment they try and be something else is when **** hits the fan.
 
They are Playstation’s brands biggest selling franchise, on PS1, PS2 and PS3.

And the CEO of that company is, again, on the Board of Directors. Do you see the problem here?

The total side project sales would still put PD close to the top or right at the top even if they did not decide to not release the core product.

What does sales numbers have to do with the fundamental misappropriation of resources?

I think the extra hours the staff put in bridges the gap somewhat against rival platform developers such as Turn 10.

No. Again, misappropriation of resources. Even moreso when you consider all of the excessively frivolous details, some of which are (still) flat out wrong.

Turn 10 had as many people working on the game as PD back in 2001 and I think they constantly had at least twice as many people working on the game. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Forza 3 had two or three times the man hours put in the game compared to GT5.

Likely, but that's not the point. The point being T10 knows how to appropriate their resources when they're overwhelmed, as evident in Forza 3. You can sit there (not you directly) and moan about all of the non-functioning cockpits you want to, at least every car has 'em. And then people say "well, at least GT5 could have had the black borders GTPSP had." What kind of blatant hypocrisy is that?

Ahem...I'm drifiting from my point, excuse me...


Turn 10 has 40 more people working on the cars for Forza 4 than the entire PD development studio, it is hardly a fair fight considering they also had as much development time but with a lot more people.

As much development time? No, they don't, T10 is limited to one game per every two years. PD takes more than double that to release one. Again, misappropriation of resources. Claiming it takes you up to 6 months for one single car is nothing to be shocked at, it's downright appalling.
 
ha i rather polyphony kept all their stuff in house. Unlike turn 10. That's why after 4 forza games their cars can't match PD and their lighting pales in comparison.

In house design means quality control is maintained. The moment you hand over car modelling to some dev in india or vietnam, thats when standards drop. And car models is one of GT's biggest strengths

and by the way, since GT4, PD has released

Tourist trophy
GT5P
GTPSP.

so yeah PD were not simply making GT5 in that time
 
The moment they try and be something else is when **** hits the fan.
Times change

If you really believe making the same game over and over with only adding some cars and tracks will continue to sell for the rest of time, you're more than welcome to, but as long as people are posting with logic it'll get shot down.

Terronium 12
Claiming it takes you up to 6 months for one single car is nothing to be shocked at, it's downright appalling.
Thank God, I'm not the only one.
No idea how that ever got mis-interpreted into "omg! longer means better!" Most people get fired for taking incredibly long times to perform tasks. :dunce:
 
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In house design means quality control is maintained. The moment you hand over car modelling to some dev in india or vietnam, thats when standards drop. And car models is one of GT's biggest strengths

How many standard models are in GT5?

I definitely don't think outsourced, shall we say, "semi-premiums" would have been worse than the standards in game.
 
And the CEO of that company is, again, on the Board of Directors. Do you see the problem here?



What does sales numbers have to do with the fundamental misappropriation of resources?



No. Again, misappropriation of resources. Even moreso when you consider all of the excessively frivolous details, some of which are (still) flat out wrong.



Likely, but that's not the point. The point being T10 knows how to appropriate their resources when they're overwhelmed, as evident in Forza 3. You can sit there (not you directly) and moan about all of the non-functioning cockpits you want to, at least every car has 'em. And then people say "well, at least GT5 could have had the black borders GTPSP had." What kind of blatant hypocrisy is that?

Ahem...I'm drifiting from my point, excuse me...




As much development time? No, they don't, T10 is limited to one game per every two years. PD takes more than double that to release one. Again, misappropriation of resources. Claiming it takes you up to 6 months for one single car is nothing to be shocked at, it's downright appalling.

Thank you for this ^ I've been trying to say that if it actually takes six months per car and two year per track...then they need to real figure out on how to plan a game development. Sony also needs to help PD as well, and you think they would do so especially being the number one game on their platform.
 
Thank you for this ^ I've been trying to say that if it actually takes six months per car and two year per track...then they need to real figure out on how to plan a game development. Sony also needs to help PD as well, and you think they would do so especially being the number one game on their platform.

This has always been my take. PD's scope and vision is admirable, but I think they need someone to say "enough is enough" because Kaz, for all the work he does, lacks the ability to effectively time manage the studio, even if the highest quality work is untouchable there's definitely some sort of weird issue with the time adding up.

I think, ideally, someone within PD to just do the day to day management and let Kaz focus on production would probably benefit.
 
How many standard models are in GT5?

I definitely don't think outsourced, shall we say, "semi-premiums" would have been worse than the standards in game.

semi premiums or standards is besides the point. The point here is that outsourcing car modelling to a different developer means less control, and therefore less quality control.
 
vandaliser
In house design means quality control is maintained. The moment you hand over car modelling to some dev in india or vietnam, thats when standards drop. And car models is one of GT's biggest strengths
Yes, it would be nice if standards dropped. ;) (POW!) (ZING!)
VERY ironic you follow that with "car models are one of GT5's biggest strengths". Words can't even describe the irony.
 
semi premiums or standards is besides the point. The point here is that outsourcing car modelling to a different developer means less control, and therefore less quality control.

Actually, my point was that even without outsourcing a large number of cars in the game fail the "quality control" standards of the properly modelled cars and that outsourcing wouldn't have hurt just as much as leaving GT4 ported cars does.
 
Yes, it would be nice if standards dropped. ;) (POW!) (ZING!)
VERY ironic you follow that with "car models are one of GT5's biggest strengths". Words can't even describe the irony.

you want standards to be dropped? c'mon. that would mean no minolta or formula GT. Look we all wished all cars were premium but that would mean gt5 being released in 2022.

car models is and will be GT biggest strength. No other car game matches GT's premium models. That is all in house talent. You cannot outsource that,
 
You can't possibly be that dumb.

2022, seriously? It only takes them as long as it does now because, and this is the seventh time (?) I've said this, they misappropriate their resources. Look how long it's taken them to get a new location (a location of which may or may not even prove to expand the immediate team themselves).
 
you want standards to be dropped? c'mon. that would mean no minolta or formula GT. Look we all wished all cars were premium but that would mean gt5 being released in 2022.

car models is and will be GT biggest strength. No other car game matches GT's premium models. That is all in house talent. You cannot outsource that,
So how would outsourcing the standards hurt?
I know I don't want to wait until 2022, but I'd like some respectable looking cars, and PD clearly can't cut the cheese in this area.

That is all in house talent. You cannot outsource that
How do you figure? What, you think PD has already employed the only people in the world capable of making good graphics? :lol:
Just because so far we haven't seen FM best them, doesn't mean they can't, it means they know when to say "enough is enough, let's make some more cars", rather then spend all their time on a few, and leave the rest dating back to GT3.


You can't possibly be that dumb.

2022, seriously? It only takes them as long as it does now because, and this is the seventh time (?) I've said this, they misappropriate their resources. Look how long it's taken them to get a new location (a location of which may or may not even prove to expand the immediate team themselves).
I disagree, to a hysterical level. 6 years made 200, so 4 x 6 = 24, at PD's current rate, it will take until 2034 to make the 800 standards into premiums. :lol:
Hell bring that other guy back talking about other games they made, and we'll call it three years for 200, and it'll still be 2022, maybe that was the above math by vandaliser. :lol:

Of course I agree with your point, but that math is to mind boggling on exactly how slow they really are right now to ignore this. :D
 
So how would outsourcing the standards hurt?
I know I don't want to wait until 2022, but I'd like some respectable looking cars, and PD clearly can't cut the cheese in this area.

How do you figure? What, you think PD has already employed the only people in the world capable of making good graphics? :lol:
Just because so far we haven't seen FM best them, doesn't mean they can't, it means they know when to say "enough is enough, let's make some more cars", rather then spend all their time on a few, and leave the rest dating back to GT3.

c'mon now, if you think pd should outsource standard cars then so it can be semi premium like you want then that's a whole different discussion but we we would have topics like why is cockpit view of this car looking shoddy and crap compared to this car over here? or this car's shape is out of bent compared to the it's real counterpart etc

You are downplaying the skills of PD modellers. Yes there is alot of time required to get car models as they are but time is nothing without talent and these guys have been designing cars since god knows how long.

terronium, you have no proof on how PD manages it's resources. If PD had 2000 modellers, it still would take time to model 800 cars to premium quality. And PD's entire team is 140 odd i believe. They had to dump their entire engine from last gen. They had to design a new engine for new hardware, new dev tools, new ways of coding. They had 2 other games in between gt4 and gt5. People simply have unrealistic expectations.
 
c'mon now, if you think pd should outsource standard cars then so it can be semi premium like you want then that's a whole different discussion but we we would have topics like why is cockpit view of this car looking shoddy and crap compared to this car over here? or this car's shape is out of bent compared to the it's real counterpart etc
We already do.
I didn't say semi-premium, that's the thing, I've seen FM4 graphics enough to know they're very good, even if they're not quite at PD's level, a slight graphical edge doesn't make a better game, a better game does.

You are downplaying the skills of PD modellers. Yes there is alot of time required to get car models as they are but time is nothing without talent and these guys have been designing cars since god knows how long.
And nobody else has? So why does it take 6 months to make a single car, and how is that considered acceptable, let alone a good thing?
 
terronium, you have no proof on how PD manages it's resources.

It takes them six months to model one car. Not two, not three, one. One.

What more proof do I need that they're misappropriating resources?


If PD had 2000 modellers, it still would take time to model 800 cars to premium quality.

And if you believe that timeframe would be even remotely similar to the one evident in GT5, then this arse-up conversation needs to stop. Now.

They had to dump their entire engine from last gen. They had to design a new engine for new hardware, new dev tools, new ways of coding. They had 2 other games in between gt4 and gt5. People simply have unrealistic expectations.

Bull. Even before GT5's release there was Prologue and the TT demo that displayed the improved physics engine. Everything you're building up as an excuse was either already finished, or in lieu of being improved/strengthened after Prologue's release.

Oh, and there was also this other GT-related game that came out in '09 -- what was that? Oh yeah, Gran Turismo. Which also displayed some minor tweaks in the physics and game engine.
 
The point here is that outsourcing car modelling to a different developer means less control, and therefore less quality control.
That's, uh, decidedly not something that you can prove. Unless you are telling me that the only people in the world capable of modelling cars work for PD, that is.

They had to design a new engine for new hardware, new dev tools, new ways of coding.
You mean they had to... *gasp* Make a PS3 game rather than a PS2 game?! Good heavens, how did they manage to ever get the game done.


:lol:
 
I think people took that "it takes 6 months to make a car "quote out of context lol
It probably took that long to make A car but not all..
If I could add rims to standards I woulld be set
Standards dont look as bad as they did on release
Check out the isuzu bellett 1600 in the ocd
if you could add rims and the windows where see through it would look like a premium .. I cant say that about all standards but alot are looking way better and it might be the process to making more standard premiums who knows
 
I think people took that "it takes 6 months to make a car "quote out of context lol
It probably took that long to make A car but not all..
If I could add rims to standards I woulld be set
Standards dont look as bad as they did on release
Check out the isuzu bellett 1600 in the ocd
if you could add rims and the windows where see through it would look like a premium .. I cant say that about all standards but alot are looking way better and it might be the process to making more standard premiums who knows

Yeah but both sides take the quote too literally, but without any other evidence or explination for why it took so long, that is all we have. I also agree it didn't take them that long considering GT HD had all the stuff made for it transfered to GT5. This is also around the time Kaz said that all the teams efforts would only be in GT5.

Sorry for earlier as well
 
People who say standards don't look that bad must be crazy. For me, looking at them makes me depressed. Yes they look at that bad.
I like driving in first person from time to time and just looking at details, I wanna feel the same about every car in the game.
I am not what you call a Forza fan but people must be ignoring what Turn 10 has to offer oppose to what PD has to offer.
 
People who say standards don't look that bad must be crazy. For me, looking at them makes me depressed. Yes they look at that bad.
I like driving in first person from time to time and just looking at details, I wanna feel the same about every car in the game.
I am not what you call a Forza fan but people must be ignoring what Turn 10 has to offer oppose to what PD has to offer.

Not all of us are ignoring Turn10...I got my eyes on FM4:). Some standards actually dont look too bad, especially on the track. Sometimes I have to REALLY look to tell if its a standard model skyline, or and premium (just an example). Biggest thing that can tell them (only the well modeled standards) apart is the window transparity and lighting effects. But ya, some, as in most, standards are just awful. You can tell the difference 100% in the garage though. Doesnt help that they seperate them too.
 
I couldn't name 10 standards that look decent if I had to. I can spot a standard car from a quarter mile away. They aren't nearly as on par with the Premiums.
Do you know how excited I was for the 1000 cars Kaz claimed 2-3 years back? You know how disappointed I was when I heard 80% of the cars were ported from GT3/GT4 around mid 2010?
That was an incredibly stubborn move by PD.

Don't even get me started with the tuning capabilities of GT5. The same ol' stages of engine tuning, same stages of forced induction, goes on.
 
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I couldn't name 10 standards that look decent if I had to. I can spot a standard car from a quarter mile away. They aren't nearly as on par with the Premiums.
Do you know how excited I was for the 1000 cars Kaz claimed 2-3 years back? You know how disappointed I was when I heard 80% of the cars were ported from GT3/GT4 around mid 2010?
That was an incredibly stubborn move by PD.

Don't even get me started with the tuning capabilities of GT5. The same ol' stages of engine tuning, same stages of forced induction, goes on.

I hear you...it frustrated me too. Just trying to make the best of it I guess.
 
And the CEO of that company is, again, on the Board of Directors. Do you see the problem here?



What does sales numbers have to do with the fundamental misappropriation of resources?



No. Again, misappropriation of resources. Even moreso when you consider all of the excessively frivolous details, some of which are (still) flat out wrong.



Likely, but that's not the point. The point being T10 knows how to appropriate their resources when they're overwhelmed, as evident in Forza 3. You can sit there (not you directly) and moan about all of the non-functioning cockpits you want to, at least every car has 'em. And then people say "well, at least GT5 could have had the black borders GTPSP had." What kind of blatant hypocrisy is that?

Ahem...I'm drifiting from my point, excuse me...




As much development time? No, they don't, T10 is limited to one game per every two years. PD takes more than double that to release one. Again, misappropriation of resources. Claiming it takes you up to 6 months for one single car is nothing to be shocked at, it's downright appalling.

He is but there is a reason why they let him do what he wants and that is because the GT series is still the biggest franchise for the PlayStation brand.

It justifies these side projects and Sony I’m sure will force some of them projects to be made in the first place.

I don’t think it is, more extra use of resources which makes the team work flat out hard.

Turn 10 do know how to use their resources reasonably well but I can’t see PD at the moment also getting another 300 people working on the game to make the resources even. I don’t know about you, but I think if PD combined with Naughty Dog, Santa Monica Studios would do a good job making a game with their resources but they would still be outnumbered by Turn 10 in terms of total people working on the game. Kaz being part of board of directors will have to make a strong case to Sony to allow him to have 4 times as many people working on the game just to get even with Turn 10 even if they are beating all the competition already when it comes to the main thing that maybe matters to them.

About cockpit view, personally I think T10 has shown they have a bad use of resources for that department. I mean the people who they outsource to must be fed up of them. First you get cars with no cockpits to get modelled, then with them, now with interiors and again with more compartments and detail. If T10 made up their mind earlier, I’m sure there would have been a lot more cars at Auto Vista quality. With a lot more man power you can afford to do these things and like I said T10 have more car modellers working on their games in the last 4 years than PD have in total working on the entire game which includes, track and car modelling, AI and game design. It is not by miracle T10 are so much ahead with cars with cockpit view. I expect the gap to grow at a vast rate of knots if PD does not expand to become three times the size.

Six months is the time for one premium car and 4 weeks for a standard car. It is not appalling considering the level of detail gone into it. I think that is the time it takes for one modeller. Sure if they had 3 times as many modellers then they would make a lot more cars to be in the game but they don’t have that extra resource to do so. Can you name another game that is currently released that has as many interior views as GT5 out the box or any game on the PlayStation platform that has as many cockpit views? It shows you they are not behind massively in terms of car count, just that one company is spending a lot of resources to raise bar in that department beyond the level PD has taken it. I have you know that there is two GT games with cockpit view for every car, release of FM4 will make it equal numbers :p.

Have PD not released GT PSP, GT5P and Tourist Trophy over the last few years, then I hear what you are saying if there last game was GT4, which would lead to non stop development just on GT5. I sometimes think that if people called GT5P was called GT5 and GT5 was called GT6, people would think the development would have been halved.

The fact of the matter is the game you say only they spend two years, well Forza 1 spent 4 years and each game since then has been an evolution off it whether it be physics or cars. FM4 has scrapped the tyre data in previous games but everything T10 has done since 2001 has gone into developing their core product, this also includes DLC. They have released less games in the same time frame, had double or triple the resources most of the time and people think that by releasing a game with a different number reduces the actual development time gone into it. I’m sure there are features in Forza 4 that have been worked on as early as Forza 2, just because they released another game does not wipe everything they did so in total they spent two years making the game. The resources that went into releasing and supporting the game would be similar to GT5P, but all the assets go back into the core product.

Back to being more on topic, what annoys me is when people keep saying to Kaz on the forums to go back to work and stop racing. This is the guy who I think has 36 hour days due to working and when he goes to events or races which maybe the only holiday time he gets, they all aid the game. I think it is disrespectful to say such things to him considering he is a workaholic like the rest of the team. People even call PD lazy; I think that is the total opposite of what they are.
 
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pd gave everything the fans wanted.

rally. check.Most unrealistic rally physics of all time. A few rally cars, with a majority standard. Cool, br0.
nascar. check.Unrealistic draft, and only 2 NASCAR tracks. No Infineon or Watkins Glen
top gear. checkJust a TG logo with a general layout, there is better representations of TG.
night racing. checkNice
dynamic weather. checkLooks horrible. Blocky
lobbies. checkCool, I agree.
damage. checkMelted fenders is not damage, unless you deal with arson.

Seriously if you are not satisfied, then put your mouth where your money is and go play other games. GT is not the only driving sim out there.

Yeah...
 
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