Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[Wolfe]

The physics feel about the same to me as FM1.

Damn. How disappointing. The first Forza was neither realistic (not even close) nor enjoyably unrealistic (a la OutRun 2 or Ridge Racer). It was just a woolly, floaty mess.

Please tell me you're joking. My Wii will likely never see a Gran-Turismo-style sim and my friends and I won't buy the PSfail until prices hit less than $200. Barring some Phoenix-like return of the Enthusia franchise on a non-Sony system, Forza 2 is all I have to look forward to.

...well, PGR4 looks awesome, but that's not a simulator.

 

[Jay]

Indeed Indeed, stiff competition.

This in-game shot alone proves that

Did they use MSPaint to paint on that dirt on the front of the Corvette?



This picture looks ok, but look at the driver, dashboard and steering wheel....


If you feel I got the worst pictures I could find (I put hardly any effort into finding these), then please compare them to the worst GTHD concept demo/GT5 pictures you can find.

P.S Yes GTHD sounds are still bad I admit, does no justice for the visuals.

 

[URBsmkr]

I think that if GT5 and FM2 were released at the same time, GT5s sales would murder FM2. In fact I don't even think that there would be a FM2 if GT games didn't take so long to create. Microsoft basically felt that they could steal some of GTs sales because GT games take so long to produce(which they were right about). While those graphics are impresive GTHds are still better and GT5 is still the game that hardcore racing sim. fans are desprately waiting for! Forza is in the same category as NFSC(PS3), a sweet game that will hold you over until GT5 is out.

 

[Rusty*]

Gaming perfection? Sorry, but the only thing perfect about Gran Turismo 4 is that it's a perfect example of this "half-done, rushed, messy release that was pressured by release date expectations" you speak of. Don't be fooled by the fact that it took 5 million years to arrive in stores anyway.

Online racing (as promised)? Nope. Drag racing (as promised)? It's easy to forget about the drag strip since there's very little to do on it. Rally/"special conditions" racing? Tacked on for no reason but to show off the Grand Canyon. Tuner village? Mostly pointless. Open-top cars and convertible cars with the top down? Completely pointless...Graphics? Hardly changed. Sounds? Not changed at all. Physics? Don't get me started.

However, I'll readily admit that Forza 1 is even worse, largely because physics are a top priority for me, and Forza's cars handle like rotten fish. There's also the tracks, which were designed by a blind man, the somewhat strange car selection, and the staid career mode.

Still, if Forza 2 lives up to most of its own promises and actually presents a realistic physics model, PD is going to have a lot of work cut out for them. Porting GT4 to the PS3 and polishing it up a bit isn't going to cut it (I'm looking at you, GTHD...).

Sceptic^
Oh and I'm sorry, as close to "gaming perfection" as you can getin the time space allowed is....maybe more defining than my last post.
PD had dealt with a lot of uneaded issues that where rather lrage time wasters yes. For example: Online Play.
Everyone wanted this so much, so they really pushed to make it happen. However if its not possible then its not possible period.
PD needs to just forget it, and keep moving to make up for time lost, and to alos forget all the nagging and bitching everyone doing over it. Those nagges need to get over it to. You can only do your best and aim for perfection yes, but knowing your going to miss you go as close as you can. Like what PD had to do by cutting there losses with missed features in GT4. Simple as that.
WOULDN'T YOU AGREE.

 

[dan_gtp]

Forza 2 physics engine is based around steering compensation. The X360 wheel only has about 250deegrees lock-to-lock? And road cars usually have about 720deegrees, so something in the code is compensating...

PD pushed for a standard wheel with 900deegrees rotation, which allowed them to replicate the steering lock/feel/movements of any car. That mind set from PD alone tells us a lot about their push for absolute realism. From there, they can optimise physics engine.

One of the most important aspects of replication real steering feel is at least have the same steering rotation. If you play Forza 2, you are basically driving road cars with less steering lock then even F1 cars! So the road cars are a lot more nervous then they should be. You will never learn true driving like this.
So much for the Forza 2 team's bull**** talk about total realism...

 

[Kent]

Kent you'll be happy to know that Turn 10 realised their mistake and went back and remodelled the Nordschleife and also have it set in Spring/Summer so no more orange and yellow trees around.

I hope you are right about this. However, I'm not going to believe Turn10 "Fixed" the Ring until I see onboard video of a Ring lap.

Flat out... If they get the Ring right then I very well may go with Forza2 because I'd love to have a gallardo in my garage.

That said, if they can't get it right or will not prove it somehow... GT5 will be completely un-contested for "best console (sim) racer."

One thing that does bother me though (when looking at which to get) is the arcade aspect for both systems... This is a bit off topic but... PGR2 was the best arcade racer on the previous console gen (closely followed by NFS:HP2). It would be a shame to miss-out on PGR3&4.
Of course, I'd rather get GT5 (assuming it is good) and deal with a substitute arcade racer than get Forza2 (assuming it is no better than Forza1) and get the best arcade racer.

Hard call for sure.

Also, I agree that PD needs to speak up in this media war (I think I used that term earlier as well).

 

[Wolfe]

Sceptic^
Oh and I'm sorry, as close to "gaming perfection" as you can getin the time space allowed is....maybe more defining than my last post.
PD had dealt with a lot of uneaded issues that where rather lrage time wasters yes. For example: Online Play.
Everyone wanted this so much, so they really pushed to make it happen. However if its not possible then its not possible period.
PD needs to just forget it, and keep moving to make up for time lost, and to alos forget all the nagging and bitching everyone doing over it. Those nagges need to get over it to. You can only do your best and aim for perfection yes, but knowing your going to miss you go as close as you can. Like what PD had to do by cutting there losses with missed features in GT4. Simple as that.
WOULDN'T YOU AGREE.

There's more wrong with GT4 than a lack of "unneeded" features like online play. As you said, no game is perfect, but GT4 is unacceptably far off the mark, especially with the delays before its release.

Aside from Photomode, B-spec (both features many would consider less important than online play), and a boatload of cars and tracks, there's little GT4 did to improve upon the series. As I said before, the graphics are a baby step forward (admittedly they're probably given too much processing time anyhow), the engine sounds are just as bad as they were in GT3 (and still have yet to improve), and there are enough half-developed ideas strewn about to make you wonder if PD employees all have ADHD.

Worse yet for a game that calls itself "the real driving simulator," not only are the physics no better than GT3, they're actually worse in some respects. And contrary to popular belief, GT3 wasn't particularly realistic.

I suppose the physics don't really matter though, because the console consumer market has already proven that it doesn't want a real simulator by shooting down Enthusia. Both GT5 and Forza 2 could handle like 10-year-old budget racing titles and they'd sell millions all the same. And everyone would be gushing about how they're so realistic "because they're so hard to play."

Forza 2 physics engine is based around steering compensation. The X360 wheel only has about 250deegrees lock-to-lock? And road cars usually have about 720deegrees, so something in the code is compensating...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but no one bases a physics engine around steering compensation, no matter how dumb you think Turn10 is. Steering compensation is just a bit of programming that acts as a mediator between the player's control input and the game. It has nothing to do with the physics, because it provides the steering angle value that is sent to the physics engine.

Also, 720 degrees is quite short for a road car. I would know -- I drive a car that does 1440. The average is right around the Driving Force Pro and G25's 900 degrees, but there are other cars that have more.

If you play Forza 2, you are basically driving road cars with less steering lock then even F1 cars! So the road cars are a lot more nervous then they should be. You will never learn true driving like this.
So much for the Forza 2 team's bull**** talk about total realism...

How is Turn10 responsible for the fact that there aren't any DFP/G25-caliber wheels for the 360?

Also, unless you've played the game yourself, I'm sure the cars in Forza 2 aren't nervous. That's what the steering compensation is for -- to provide some center reduction (less sensitivity near center and more sensitivity on the left/right extremes) to make things more controllable. Besides, if you play with a controller (like me) the whole steering lock-to-lock point is moot, and you still get to play with the same exact physics engine.

 

[the Interceptor]

Maybe it's just me, but every time I see screenshots such as those (check the link as well!), I come to think that GT:HD looks like a computerized copy of reality, whereas others like Forza just look like a game. Sorry!

 

[V1P3R]

:shudder: Those pics are why I'm looking for a PS3 although what will bit me in the ass harder than the price of a PS3 is the sound. Why can't one or the other get BOTH ****ing right!?

 

[Diab]

Those pics are the worst you can find and GT HD does look great, no contest but then it doesn't have to do much does it? One car, one track, no skidmarks, no intense sound or ai processing so of course it can look great. Whether you like it or not GT has a very very competent contender and it is now at the same level as GT, I rank GT and Forza the top 2 console racers equally with enthusia in 2nd but even being a long time GT fan I can see that Forza is evolving quicker and more effectively in 2 years than what GT has in 4 times that.

I know this is a GT forum and mainly Sony biase but don't let your brand loyalty fool you into not at least trying this game and when you do don't look at it like it's trying to take on GT, play it for what it is and then you will enjoy, if you start trying to find faults and compare then you will come up short and not have any fun. Also regarding the wheel, the control structure and feel is very good, yes the radius is small but you get used to it, hell people played GT4 with a DFP in 200 degree mode you gonna bitch about them too?

 

[ChadSpeed]

Damn. How disappointing. The first Forza was neither realistic (not even close) nor enjoyably unrealistic (a la OutRun 2 or Ridge Racer). It was just a woolly, floaty mess.

Please tell me you're joking. My Wii will likely never see a Gran-Turismo-style sim and my friends and I won't buy the PSfail until prices hit less than $200. Barring some Phoenix-like return of the Enthusia franchise on a non-Sony system, Forza 2 is all I have to look forward to.

...well, PGR4 looks awesome, but that's not a simulator.

Okay don't hold me on this. I haven't played FM1 in forever. But when playing teh demo I feel that it is realistic and that I am driving a tightrope on the edge of over or understeer. It's not at all like GT, in GT you could be making you way through a sweeper and floor it or put on the brakes and would only get understeer. In FM2 you would get both under and oversteer. I would have to tell you to try it out at the display in a store before making you judgment. I thought FM1 physics were okay, but I really like FM2 also. And of course you can do burnouts, doughnuts, and you E-brake works. When you watch one of your replays and you see and hear you car ripping around a corner, besides the graphics not looking reallife, the sound of the tires, way the car moves looks just like a episode of Test Drive on Speed.

 

[dunkee]

The more I play the demo the more I fall in love w/ the physics. I think in that dept FM2 destroys GT:HD (demo vs demo). And I'm sure most on here will disagree but to anyone who enjoys more of a sim feel will agree. I think most are stuck on the whole look of things..but once you get over it (which ain't hard, Forza 2 aint that bad) it will blow you away

 

[dunkee]

Well there's two types of players, one that enjoys the feel of driving and everything that comes w/ it...the other that likes the look of driving. If you like the first, you'll love Forza and be bored by GT. If you like the second, you'll be disgusted by Forza and adore GT (and PGR). That's all that it comes down to. It would be great to have both in one game but that's life..

 

[Jay]

Well there's two types of players, one that enjoys the feel of driving and everything that comes w/ it...the other that likes the look of driving. If you like the first, you'll love Forza and be bored by GT. If you like the second, you'll be disgusted by Forza and adore GT (and PGR). That's all that it comes down to. It would be great to have both in one game but that's life..

'Feel of driving' is better in Gran Turismo.

 

[G.T]

And I happen to like both series. They're good and bad in their own ways, and I respect that.

 

[Scaff]

Well there's two types of players, one that enjoys the feel of driving and everything that comes w/ it...the other that likes the look of driving. If you like the first, you'll love Forza and be bored by GT. If you like the second, you'll be disgusted by Forza and adore GT (and PGR). That's all that it comes down to. It would be great to have both in one game but that's life..

I hope you are talking about Forza 2 in regards to "the feel of driving and everything that comes w/ it", because that's certainly not a description that could be applied to the first Forza. The original had almost no feel at all, not to mention the hideously (and un-realistic) high levels of grip even the 'stock' tyres provided. The worst on the original Forza were FWD cars, which handled in a spectacularly un-realistic manner.

Sorry but the original sat well below both GT4 and Enthusia (and for that matter GT3) in terms of driving physics and feel. I honestly felt cheated after I bought an Xbox just for Forza, just as well Black gave me a reason to keep the Xbox, because Forza certainly didn't.

Now Forza 2 may well have addressed a number of the key issues (but I have no intention of buying a 360 just to find out), but that doesn't automatically better than GT%, the simple reason being that GT5 is not out yet. GT:HD is by PDs own admission little more than a pretty version of GT4, a placeholder if you will. I don't think that we can comment on GT5s physics just yet.

Oh and I certainly hope they have done a better job of the 'ring this time around, because the last one was shockingly bad. Far, far to wide and with curbs the size of small buildings.


Regards

Scaff

Edited to add that I have now merged the " Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?" and "GT5 has stiff compatition (sic)" threads together as they are both on the same topic and we don't need two separate discussions about the same thing.

 

[dunkee]

'Feel of driving' is better in Gran Turismo.

That's you opinion bud..far from fact. Play the demo and if you're not a fanboy, you will see the difference.

that's certainly not a description that could be applied to the first Forza

Two different beasts..I urge you to try the demo.

And for those that like the "look" of driving, PGR4 is coming for that too. Some tidbits:

"Added is a new dynamic weather system. You won't turn on and off rain or worry about a snow flurry in one specific track. The weather changes and you never know what to expect when you start your engine. The weather will force you to adjust your driving techniques

As your driver progresses, winning races and racking up kudos, he gains new fans. They cheer just for him as he passes other drivers. And thanks to the revised kudos system, your newly-confident driver will pump his fist as he passes an opponent. Just don't get too full of yourself, because the AI promises to be as big as showoff as your virtual driver."

 

[Scaff]

Two different beasts..I urge you to try the demo.

Sorry but I must confess I have no intention of buying a 360 just to play a demo, if I get a chance to have a go around a friends house I will do just that. However I've been bitten in that manner before.

I am however interested to hear exactly how it is 'better', what does it do well, what is accurate (and why) and what do you feel is still lacking?


Regards

Scaff

 

[dunkee]

Weight transfer, grip, AI (which isn't on hard), collsions, and their audio is amazing. Those are the same things I enjoy when I'm in my real car driving.

 

[Dave A]

dunkee is correct in that the FM2 demo is much, much better physics wise than FM1. Imo I will enjoy serious driving in FM2, something I didn't enjoy very much in FM1 because the physics were bad. It modelled some areas very well, but as a whole, the physics engine in FM1 was balls. The main thing with FM2 is that I've found the cars weight is used better, weight shifting is far better and more natural. The AI wasn't something to shout about, they seemed just as mindless as they are in GT tbh, maybe on harder difficulties they will be better, but in the demo they're nothing special. The one area that I'm not keen on is the way some of the cars lose grip on corners, there's still that tendency to oversteer far too much on some cars, though I only noticed in on certain cars, they were still cars that if you accelerate too fast out of a corner, will still understeer. Like the TVR sagaris, in that demo I doubt it's even possible to understeer in it. It is much improved, and I think most people will be able to enjoy FM2 much more than the first, and the tuning and customistation options seem staggering. But I will not be shouting it out as a contender for most realistic physics in a console sim ever, that title imo is still joint owned by GT4 and EPR. It's good enough to be very enjoyable imo, but it is not the best.

 

[dunkee]

I still amazes me to hear ppl say GT4 has better physics then even the hardest of the hardcore sims out there (and I'm not referring to Forza). It's so easy to recover oversteer in GT even w/ simulation tires. Brake lock is also really really important but almost nonexistent in it. It just makes me believe either ppl are stuck on the prettiness of it..or have never really driven a car hard before.

Also I'm not saying forza is king..but feelwise much better than GT. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Kent]

I still amazes me to hear ppl say GT4 has better physics then even the hardest of the hardcore sims out there (and I'm not referring to Forza). It's so easy to recover oversteer in GT even w/ simulation tires. Brake lock is also really really important but almost nonexistent in it. It just makes me believe either ppl are stuck on the prettiness of it..or have never really driven a car hard before.

Also I'm not saying forza is king..but feelwise much better than GT. I'll leave it at that.

I've got to be honest here and tell you that you are consistantly writing up everyone else as a fanboy and at the same time all you do is praise forza and forza 2.
Then you can't even admit to anything other than GT4 being "pretty."

Sorry to be blunt or even rude, but I think you're showing yourself to be a Forza fanboy before anything else.

Personally, I fall into the same boat as the other fella here who got burned by Forza 1... I also bought an Xbox purely to test Forza compared to GT.

I probably will not make that mistake again.

However, if Forza 2 really is the improvement you claim it to be (or anyone else for that matter), show me the Nurburgring in a video.

That's the single biggest problem I had with Forza.
I had tons of fun with NFS:HP2 and PGR2 so I know the physics being off isn't enough of a problem to keep me away from the game... The problem was Forza's Nurburgring (amongst other real world tracks as well).

So please, show me the Ring. 👍
Atleast it is something that is solid and can't be disputed... When it comes to physics I can't even listem to many people most of the time because they don't even know what they are talking about... However, the Ring, onboard video will show everything necessary.

If they can get the Ring right, I will be able to ignore most of the other stuff that may be a problem (although I still have my doubts the physics are as improved as claimed simply because Forza 1 was alleged to have great physics and at this point in my Forza/PGR2 career I'm inclined to say Forza 1 was PGR2 with bad brakes and more throttle oversteer).

 

[Dave A]

I still amazes me to hear ppl say GT4 has better physics then even the hardest of the hardcore sims out there (and I'm not referring to Forza). It's so easy to recover oversteer in GT even w/ simulation tires. Brake lock is also really really important but almost nonexistent in it. It just makes me believe either ppl are stuck on the prettiness of it..or have never really driven a car hard before.

Also I'm not saying forza is king..but feelwise much better than GT. I'll leave it at that.

GT4 isn't in any way better than the proper hardcore sims out there, but there arn't any other sims on consoles as good as GT4 or EPR phyics wise that I've ever played. Bear in mind that I didn't actually like GT4 as much as GT3 or EPR, I do still recognise where it's good. I willprobably enjoy FM2 more than GT4 (I certainly hope I do anyway) but judging from the demo, I don't think it's physics overall are better than GT4's, closer than FM1's, a lot closer, but not better.

 

[RcWr]

Kent , here it is.

http://download.microsoft.com/download/0/f/8/0f866fa6-9384-4d34-bdc1-4003618baafc/FM2_nurb_720p.wmv

My opinion about GT5 vs Forza2 changed during last 3months.
I was totally GT fanboy and Forza didn't bother me at all.. Actually I bought XBOX 1 to play Forza 1. And I think GT4 is better than Forza 1... BUT.
Forza 2 seems to be much better than Forza 1 and from a demo I can say that improvment is very big from F1. Physics is very realistic (I compare it to LFS). It's pretty hard to drift all the corners without spining out. I remember in GT4 I could have drift all track without spining out with HUUUUGE angles , but it's not impossible in real life. In F2 too big angles means end of your drift which is realistic.
Then sounds. We all know and we all have to agree , that F2 is a leader at sounds. Gallardo video (btw it was made by me) shows how strong sounds are. In GT4 and GTHD you always get same sound. No difference what car you drive , is it V12 Ferrari or it's Miata 1.8. (I've seen few videos). Meanwhile , F2 offers you big variety. Gallardo , F430 , Viper , C6. All of them sounds totally different.
About graphics... It's obvious that GT is as better than F2 in this section as F2 in sounds. Last video with Nissan is amazing , very realistic. F2 can't offer us that

That's all I can say so far

Sorry for my english...

 

[dunkee]

Funny thing is I was a GT4 fanboy before I guess now I'm a Forza fanboy I like to think I am open minded though. You guys don't have to take my word for it..there are many even amar212 who think it drives really well. If you guys get chance check it out..but w/ an open mind. Just cause it doesn't drive like GT doesn't mean it's wrong.

Oh and about the nurb..I'll quote YSSMAN cause he said it best..

I call bogus on that claim. Why?



Sure, it isn't quite spot-on, but I'll take it. The track is as realistic as it has ever been in Forza (or PGR for that matter), and they've done a good enough job putting their own spin on it to make it work. So what if the grade is off just a bit on hill 13, the kerbs are 7mm too wide, and the pain on turn 27 is forward by three inches.

...Get over it. At least the guys at Turn 10 have been able to deliver a game with a car list that keeps the fans happy (Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini), a few tracks that aren't (but should be) in GT, and indeed the most-important feature, ONLINE PLAY.

I'll gladly take the "issues" with Forza just for those. There isn't any need to go all fanboi on us here either... A lot of us are still a bit pissed-off about GT4...

 

[Jay]

I still amazes me to hear ppl say GT4 has better physics then even the hardest of the hardcore sims out there

Who says that? I don't see anyone saying that.

I was referring to GT4 vs Forza 1 in my last post as I have never played the GTHD demo or Forza 2 demo but in that case (GT4 vs Forza 1) and most will agree, GT4 had much more 'feel'.

 

[Kent]

Well I'm not really sure how YSSMAN calling people fanbois has anything to do with the facts of the matter (which is indeed that Forza 1 did a horrible Ring)...

Next issue...

Kent , here it is.

http://download.microsoft.com/download/0/f/8/0f866fa6-9384-4d34-bdc1-4003618baafc/FM2_nurb_720p.wmv

My opinion about GT5 vs Forza2 changed during last 3months.
I was totally GT fanboy and Forza didn't bother me at all.. Actually I bought XBOX 1 to play Forza 1. And I think GT4 is better than Forza 1... BUT.
Forza 2 seems to be much better than Forza 1 and from a demo I can say that improvment is very big from F1. Physics is very realistic (I compare it to LFS). It's pretty hard to drift all the corners without spining out. I remember in GT4 I could have drift all track without spining out with HUUUUGE angles , but it's not impossible in real life. In F2 too big angles means end of your drift which is realistic.
Then sounds. We all know and we all have to agree , that F2 is a leader at sounds. Gallardo video (btw it was made by me) shows how strong sounds are. In GT4 and GTHD you always get same sound. No difference what car you drive , is it V12 Ferrari or it's Miata 1.8. (I've seen few videos). Meanwhile , F2 offers you big variety. Gallardo , F430 , Viper , C6. All of them sounds totally different.
About graphics... It's obvious that GT is as better than F2 in this section as F2 in sounds. Last video with Nissan is amazing , very realistic. F2 can't offer us that

That's all I can say so far

Sorry for my english...

Thanks for the video... I took some initiative and found that on my own just now (only I'm downloading the 40mb version instead of the 200+mb version that I believe you have linked). So again, thanks. 👍

The video looks great in graphical quality but unfortunately, the onboard views were limited and the track still seems to be lacking (but much, much better overall). (good enough that it doesn't seem like it would be a "con" when considering which system I will buy)... Which reminds me...
Isn't it possible that many people here are severely biased since you probably bought the system in question to have played either demo? I mean, I seriously doubt many people who just bought a 360 will admit that their GT substitute is inferior and of course, the opposite applies as well... I doubt new PS3 owners would ever want to admit the 360 does something better.

With that said, there is one thing I want to address...
The sound of GT4 was nothing like what you have posted here.
GT4 actually did a good job with engine sound.

In any case, I just wanted to contest the above quoted statment with regards to engine sound in GT4... GT4 definately did a great job of distinguishing between various engines (a much better job than implied when saying a 1.8 Miata and Ferrari V12 sound the same). That just wasn't the case at all.

 

[Dave A]

By saying "guy's" I hope you arn't including me, I have the FM2 demo, I'm very aware that just because it doesn't feel like GT4 doesn't mean it's wrong too. EPR doesn't feel like GT4, far from it yet I rate that as an equal in terms of realism. Because where GT4 goes off the mark EPR get's on it and vice versa. FM2 has some great touches, but it still suffers from overdone oversteer imo.

 

[dunkee]

I was referring to you as well. You are not a king are you? It's your opinion, I have mine.

 

[Kent]

I was referring to you as well. You are not a king are you? It's your opinion, I have mine.

It's this sort of thing that makes me believe the entire argument you have put forward has been based on nothing but fanboy bias.

Here we've got a long term quality member that is willing to openly admit and discuss "bad" sides of GT (along with all the other games being discussed) yet you blanket statement him into a statement that hasn't even been made in this thread.

That's just rediculus and probably almost as rediculus as the idea that you present opinions in this thread that are even half as well informed or unbiased as what Dave A has presented. 👎