Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[Kent]

That's fine but I'm not getting bent out of shape, I'm simply reacting to you saying you're ok with all the fanboy and openmindedness talk (when in reality you were going mad no more than a few days ago and eventually I had to suggest you take our discussion back channel).

Fact is, you've continually put other people down as close minded and fanboyish.

You come to the GTP simply to put down GT and nothing more. Not nit pick, just put down.

Other members with open minds have admitted to both games having strengths and weaknesses. You on the other hand do nothing of that nature.

I become frustrated with that sort of behavior.

That said, I'd really like it if you (dunkee) and members like 97modman would seriously consider reading what I had said and not reacting in an instant...
I didn't say to stop the discussion, I specifically said to try getting back to the subject of the thread.
This isn't a Forza vs GT thread, this is a discussion of the battle for media attention, sales, and reputation.

With that in mind, I still believe Forza has the upper-hand.
The machine driving forza's reputation is so powerful I find it hard to believe GT5 will even make a dent in the sales of Forza 2 (or 3 for that matter). Heck, Forza even has its own TV show on Speed.
But who knows?

 

[RacingFreak2k3]

Well the way PD is going GT5 will be out when Forza 3 will debut.

Surprise surprise...typical PD. Haha I guess all we can hope for is that with Sony gaming day (going on right now) and E3 coming up soon, that PD will be further in production than we are expecting, but i'm not getting my hopes up.

 

[dunkee]

That's fine but I'm not getting bent out of shape, I'm simply reacting to you saying you're ok with all the fanboy and openmindedness talk (when in reality you were going mad no more than a few days ago and eventually I had to suggest you take our discussion back channel).

Fact is, you've continually put other people down as close minded and fanboyish.

You come to the GTP simply to put down GT and nothing more. Not nit pick, just put down.

Other members with open minds have admitted to both games having strengths and weaknesses. You on the other hand do nothing of that nature.

There are members here who have nothing good to say about Forza..strangely you just leave them alone? I have mentioned some of GT's strengths, yet you choose to focus on the weakness part. You know very well I am doing nothing wrong here. Actually you are the one who is doing wrong. If you weren't a mod I wouldn't even bother responding to you.

 

[97modman]

double post

 

[Dave A]

"Did IQ's drop while I was away" (spot the Aliens quote , and not to be taken literally as offense). 97modman, he didn't say you had responded to his post directly, he said to read it and not react in an instant. Your reply to the quote of dunkee's is in many ways a reply to Kent who had addressed that comment in his post above, I redirect you to where Kent said "consider reading what I had said and not reacting in an instant", the whole reacting in an instant part without considering what he posted is something you've just done again. Dunkee, there's no gain from this type of argument in public, if you feel targeted take it to a PM, all that will be achieved here is the thread getting messy for everyone.

 

[Kent]

Ok...
97modman...
I took it that when you agreed to Dunkee saying ...

I don't see a problem w/ this thread. There might be fanboys in here (I might as well be one) but it has not gotten out of hand. IMO this thread is the only reason I come to this forum. It has been a respectable debate and lead to some interesting topics..why stop it? Who cares who calls who a fanboy and what not..I sure don't.

... When I saw you agree to that I thought you had made the same mistake in understanding what I was saying when I suggested we stick to the topic of the thread.
I understood you to be saying, 'yes, I agree that there is nothing wrong here and that going off topic is ok since this topic is the only reason I come to the gtp.'
If that was my mistake and you didn't mean to agree in that sense then I apologize. However, if you were agreeing for the sake of keeping this thread alive just because it was you're only reason for coming to the gtp (even though it goes off topic) then I will have to make the same 'on topic' remind for you.

That said, you really shouldn't use the "STFU" abbreviation or the full statement. That's not polite and it's certainly against the rules.

As for Dunkee,
First of all, if you were to ignore my posts and not respond I think we would both enjoy this thread much more.
That said, I understand your concern for my lack of isolating Forza bashers. My generalized "the fanboyism on both sides" comments are obviously lost on you (I guess you just ignore it when I say that I know there are fanboys on both sides).
I apologize for making you feel that I am picking on you and not any of the GT fanboys. I'll do my best to straighten them out as I see them post propaganda.

That said, please let go of the moderator thing... You don't need to respond to me because I'm a mod (that's only if we are talking legit GT moderator buisness, which you have done a good job of avoiding). 👍

The only reason you should respond to my comments in this thread is because you want to. 👍

Other than all of that stuff, to the thread in general, I once again want to mention that this really is a topic to discuss the future of both series in relation to the current media/reputation war.

Forza vs GT comparison threads are in other forums of the GTP and have been raging for some time (I believe there is still an active comparison thread in the xbox forum). 👍

 

[dunkee]

Kent you really don't need to make this all public. A PM would be better. You are to blame for making this topic go off topic as the rest of us. I will stop my bickering w/ you because it goes no where.

To add, like RacingFreak mentioned, there is no GT5 media so where would this thread go? We only have the demos to compare from and the topic is "Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?" It does not say GT5 GT:HD GT4, Forza 1 or 2. I took it as the entire series as wholes. You love your technicalities.

 

[Kent]

Dude, don't worry.
I want this to be public because we aren't trying to be rude (don't mean to speak for you but I assume you don't want to be rude).

Rather than have "the public" see the heat build and then have us disappear just to end up respecting each other's opinions without the public seeing. I would like to see us finish our respective statements publicly (assuming we can keep with our friendly intentions) and move on to discuss the thread's subject further.

One thing I want to iterate is my current position (in the next gen console hunt...)
Right now I'm fully capable of buying either system, connecting to the net using my wireless network, and playing each system's respective games. However, I don't have a next gen console. Why do you all think that is?
The answer is simple- I'm waiting to see GT5 (if possible).
I'm not so blindly faithful to PD that I would buy a PS3 without knowning what GT5 will bring. At the same time, I'm not so faithful to Turn10 as to buy a 360 without knowing for sure that Forza2 will improve on the areas I didn't like in Forza 1. Basically, I'm waiting because I don't want to use my estamations or assumptions as the base of my decision. I want to be, and have been, very open to either franchise taking my "vote." (and when I say vote, I mean 500xbox360 or 600ps3 dollars )

In closing, please don't think I'm blaming you for making this off topic. I don't recall saying you were the one taking this off topic. Instead of that, I've been trying to give general reminders to everyone, which are more often than not in response to various replies that continue the "forza vs gt: which is better" subject.

Now of course, with all that said...
I feel like Turn10 has definately won-me-over with the campaign to distrube media.
Youtube fanboys aren't at the heart of that, but rather... Forza2 has released tons of media regarding the addition of Lamborgini, the revised sound and graphics, and especially the new take on the Nurburgring.
Admittedly, the Ring vid was ambiguous and physics can't be described (you've just got to experience that) but the distribution of media as a whole has been much more affective than PD's work with GT.

When Forza2 is released officially, I'm headed up to the eb games. I'm requesting to play the game and I plan on buying a 360 if the driving feels connected (I really didn't like the "floaty" feel of cars in Forza1).
None the less, the media distributed has definately shown me that for the time being I can be excited about an excellent driving experience.
The proof is in the pudding right? Well I plan to have a taste of that pudding as soon as Forza2 enters stores.

 

[dunkee]

I wonder what is cooking in those PD labs. It's crazy that they have not even bothered w/ a single tidbit of info. It would hurt but trust me if PD fixes some of the issues I have w/ GT, I will no doubt cough up the dough for a PS3.

 

[Dave A]

PD have remained tight lipped in the past, but I must confess, they've been more silent than usual in the last 6 months. I'm hoping that the next big game show see's some kind of big announcment and an influx of GT related media.

 

[dunkee]

I remember it was tough for GT4, but leaks would eventually come in. I don't understand this new strategy..are they scared or over-confident? Well from what they say about japanese culture I'll assume it's the later.

 

[Kent]

See, for me...
The campaign by Turn10 has been really effective on me.
Where at first I was like, oh, I'll wait for GT5 and buy one or the other... Now I'm like "well, if FM2 is great I can buy a 360 and by the time GT5 is out I will have the space between purchases and the money to justify owning both systems."

That's all of it to me... Because PD is slow to combat Turn10's efforts and because the release is so far off, I'm just not willing to say I would never own both systems.

Chances are my money sometime this summer will go to a 360 and my money next year (whenever GT5 comes out) will go to PS3.

Edit:
I'd definately say it is not "over-confident."
Rather, I'd say it is being cautious.
If they release info it could lead to people saying "look at how they still will not give us this or that" much like what happend with GTHD. HD can't be pulled un-released but I'm sure they have seen how people have assumed HD is a GT5 demo (when in reality it is not at all a GT5 demo).
Furthermore, my views of PD (based on GT4) are also that they work slowly and might not have made any real progress towards realizing GT5 as it is planned.

None the less, it would be good for them to come out with a mission statement that says "GT5 will be" this and that.

 

[97modman]

"Did IQ's drop while I was away" (spot the Aliens quote , and not to be taken literally as offense). 97modman, he didn't say you had responded to his post directly, he said to read it and not react in an instant. Your reply to the quote of dunkee's is in many ways a reply to Kent who had addressed that comment in his post above, I redirect you to where Kent said "consider reading what I had said and not reacting in an instant", the whole reacting in an instant part without considering what he posted is something you've just done again. Dunkee, there's no gain from this type of argument in public, if you feel targeted take it to a PM, all that will be achieved here is the thread getting messy for everyone.

Why not react in an instant?..if my name was involved why wouldnt I?..thats like you reacting (which you will) to my post. I have read his post, nothing moved me about it, so i agreed with someone else's post.. last time i checked it was a free world..

 

[Kent]

Can we please just let it go?
Also, please take note that the "STFU" stuff isn't really acceptable (just want to make sure you saw my response to that from the last page).

Other than that, I encourage you to voice your opinions here and anywhere else on the GTP.
You do indeed have the right to voice your opinion. 👍
(although a free world and Jordan's privately owned GTP are indeed different things )

 

[dunkee]

That's why I kinda hope it isn't good..I know if it is I won't be able to fight temptation and then I'm down $600..then I'll force myself to get the wheel ..then my gf will leave me for obsessing over driving games. So for my sake of having a drama free life I say Down w/ GT5!

 

[97modman]

When Forza2 is released officially, I'm headed up to the eb games. I'm requesting to play the game and I plan on buying a 360 if the driving feels connected (I really didn't like the "floaty" feel of cars in Forza1).
None the less, the media distributed has definately shown me that for the time being I can be excited about an excellent driving experience.
The proof is in the pudding right? Well I plan to have a taste of that pudding as soon as Forza2 enters stores.

I totally agree, you need that connection with the game..thats one thing i loved about GT4..it absorbed me, especially for me since i do own a track car and cannot drive it 7 months out of the yr..Damn winters..GT4 gave the chance to always somewhat be in that environment..

 

[97modman]

That's why I kinda hope it isn't good..I know if it is I won't be able to fight temptation and then I'm down $600..then I'll force myself to get the wheel ..then my gf will leave me for obsessing over driving games. So for my sake of having a drama free life I say Down w/ GT5!

I am in the same boat.. between Track car, car games and trying to keep the girl happy..it is too much..but if GT5 comes out with something really crazy then i will have to buy a PS3..screw it you only live once..its either that or model planes are kind of fun..

 

[dunkee]

The GT:HD vs real life was good though...even if it wasn't from Sony directly. But they need to address some of the other things ppl complained about. If they showed pics of the damage or multiple cars on field all in HD that would easily bring the morale back up.

 

[Kent]

Sorta... I doubt multiple cars on a grid would matter since that's already been released.
That said...
I remember how I didn't buy a PS2 for the longest time simply because I had just started back in college and I really didn't want to ruin my scholastics. I knew that if I bought a PS2 and GT3 I would be in for months of dedicated gaming.

I waited until something like the end of 2001 before buying a ps2 and GT3.
Bought the Xbox on a whim just to satisfy curiousity about FM1... Bought a GameCube because RE4 on the GC was the best console game of that generation (forza, halo, gt, god of war, all of that included, RE4 on the GameCube was unbeatable).

 

[dunkee]

As Dave A posted, those were based off of the GT4 models not the HD.

Oh and Famitsu released their FM2 scores: 9/9/9/9
http://n4g.com/xbox360/News-40066.aspx

That can't be good for Sony coming from a Japanese mag.

 

[Swift]

Sorta... I doubt multiple cars on a grid would matter since that's already been released.
That said...
I remember how I didn't buy a PS2 for the longest time simply because I had just started back in college and I really didn't want to ruin my scholastics. I knew that if I bought a PS2 and GT3 I would be in for months of dedicated gaming.

I waited until something like the end of 2001 before buying a ps2 and GT3.
Bought the Xbox on a whim just to satisfy curiousity about FM1... Bought a GameCube because RE4 on the GC was the best console game of that generation (forza, halo, gt, god of war, all of that included, RE4 on the GameCube was unbeatable).

RE4 was OK. I just couldn't get into it because it played just like RE1. You had to go to the menu switch weapons, reload all that stuff. When in other games like it you press a shoulder button.

Anyway, since FM and GT are not on the same console I wouldn't say that they are in battle. I'd say rather that they are friendly rivals. Besides, their goals are slightly different. For instance. GT would NEVER put a racing line on the track for you to follow. You need to drive yourself and understand your car. But on the other side, Forza is very much into the atmosphere of the experience. So it really depends on what you're looking for.

Also, the fact that they tend to be released about 2 years apart makes it very hard to compare the two. In some cases unfair. Like the whole Forza vs GT 3 thing. That was so ridiculous. But the Forza 2 vs GT4 is the same situation. I'm not trying to say that GT is always at a disadvantage, just that they are not equal or meant to be equal. At least, that's what I think.

 

[Diab]

Wow that was a fair bit of text to read that's for sure.

Back to the topic in question: GT and PD is and have always been losing the battle but because there has been no real competition it wasn't that evident. I mean think how many times you have looked at the newest GT, played it and been annoyed by the AI or the sounds or the lack of damage but because there was nothing else like it you stuck with it. But now that Forza and Turn 10 are literally pushing and expanding the envelope to near breaking point PD, Sony and GT can't just follow it's usual moreCars + moreTracks + greatVisuals = newestGT formula. I mean you sometimes need to imitate to innovate.

If they do go this route then I have no doubt it will sell but it will also send many over to the Xbox 360 and Forza 2. Think of the age groups, Halo 3 and Forza 2 caters to two seriously popular genres on the one machine plus it's online reputation cannot be beat, and those gamers who don't know it all and only want a quick fix and value for money will look at a 360.

As I have said I really really do hope that PD is getting their act together and Kazunori Yamauchi (if I was a fanboy would I know how to spell that? lol) must now have a powerful enough system to warrant his vision of a GT actually worthy of the title "The Real Driving simulator".

Of note; I picked "It's going to be a nice battle." on the poll above because honestly that's exactly what it's going to be and that's brilliant for us, unless of course you're of the narrow minded mindset and will only stick to the one and only that one camp.

Not to mention Famitsu rated Forza 2 36/40 !!

 

[Kent]

I don't put much credit into any magazine review...
They just never address issues the way I would like.
They can't say "oh the driving felt odd" and instead they have to say "it had its own feel." Do you know what I mean by that?
Also, they never take the time to consider little things that are really big for some of us (like the Nurburgring's accuracy).
Because of reasons like those I just ignore the reviews and go with my own opinion after playing them. 👍

That said, Swift, don't even get me started on RE4. Before you know it I'll be coming after you like a parasite-infected zombie with no mercy and a tommy gun.

 

[dunkee]

I know what you mean..but a lot of other ppl read that mag. It's big over there so it's a big deal.

 

[Swift]

That said, Swift, don't even get me started on RE4. Before you know it I'll be coming after you like a parasite-infected zombie with no mercy and a tommy gun.

Bring it on slick! I can just out run you! heh heh.

But I agree with the magazine reviews. Especially for driving games. There are other games that reviews can be very helpful with, action, RPG, sports(sometimes). But driving is too personal to each individual to say if it "drives well" or not.

There is only really one thing that PD needs to do to stay on the top. That's good online play. Sure, damage is nice, better sound would be good and fixing the understeer would be best. But lets look at the mass effect here. Most people AREN'T enthusiasts that play these games. All they want to be able to do is race their friends. If PD and sony can figure that out at lest close to as well as Microsoft, then they don't have anything to worry about.

 

[Kent]

Well you're right about that... Although this could be a very good thing for PD...
If Japan itself takes to the Forza franchise I can garuntee PD will start working much harder than ever before to both innovate and create. I have no doubt that a strong FM2 success in Japan would bring both innovation and creation as well as imitation.

It's going to be interesting to see what GT will do in response if FM2 is a hit.

 

[97modman]

There is only really one thing that PD needs to do to stay on the top. That's good online play. Sure, damage is nice, better sound would be good and fixing the understeer would be best. But lets look at the mass effect here. Most people AREN'T enthusiasts that play these games. All they want to be able to do is race their friends. If PD and sony can figure that out at lest close to as well as Microsoft, then they don't have anything to worry about.

I guess that was the problem that i was having the GT series but i never realized till Swift mentioned it..they have to cater to a whole other market so why would they be able to advertise as a "Real Driving Sim"..if its far from one..I have played GTR and to me thats a all out SIM..you wont see anyone younger than 15 on that game..

I am a real enthusiast so i need the following:
Tuning
The Grid
Sounds
Damage
Smell of a car after a hot lap (i would so pay)..

 

[RacingFreak2k3]

I guess that was the problem that i was having the GT series but i never realized till Swift mentioned it..they have to cater to a whole other market so why would they be able to advertise as a "Real Driving Sim"..if its far from one..I have played GTR and to me thats a all out SIM..you wont see anyone younger than 15 on that game..

I am a real enthusiast so i need the following:
Tuning
The Grid
Sounds
Damage
Smell of a car after a hot lap (i would so pay)..

Yeah all of those things would be nice....if you're referring to "The Grid" as a 40+ car field, unfortunetely it won't happen in GT, or with many games for that matter just because of the amount of power needed to process the amount of detail GT delivers, at least on a console. If PD gets a 20 car field, I'd be ecstatic, but I'd be happy with 8 or more to tell you the truth. Oh well, we can always hope

 

[Dave A]

It won't happen with any console game, but I regularly (respectively) have 40+ car grid races in RFactor on my PC.

 

[GTXLR]

PD have remained tight lipped in the past, but I must confess, they've been more silent than usual in the last 6 months. I'm hoping that the next big game show see's some kind of big announcment and an influx of GT related media.

I have a horrible feeling about this 2.
It seems to me that the fiasco over the Launch title GTHD: premium and classic edition being cancelled is going to leave us either waiting a long time for GT5 or we will get another very lacklustre effort in a bid to get GT5 out in a time frame that suits Sony, i.e in the next 18 months.

The problems seemed to stem back to the late distribution of final dev kits for the PS3, although im sure PD did a lot of research and background work during the break between GT4 and then.
This led to PD focusing on the GTHD update of GT4 (GTHD,classic), for the PS3, this was targeted to go at launch, and a lot of effort was concentrated on this to get it ready for the launch, The fact that kaz talked in detail about it, at the press confrences just shy of ps3 launch shows it was almost ready to go, the GTHD premium element of this launch title were limited, (premium being the updated engine and graphics that would be used later for the basis for GT5) new content was to be added over network distribution. the fact that so little of this content was going to be available in the launch title, and knowing how little time they had the full dev kit to try and get to grips with, leads me to believe very little work on this part had been done.
Thats very worrying, based on PDs history in long developement times, and i belive why we have had little comment or media from PD!

If GTHD premium/classic edition had seen the light of day it would have been like GT3 in some aspects, it would have been a stop gap title to keep fans happy, it would have showed some of the potential of PS3, and would have provided feed back from users and experience for the dev team with the architecture that they could have grown, this in turn would have allowed them to then focus on the main gran turismo title, GT5, which would have probably been about a further 2 1/2 years down the road.

The fact that the rush decision to completely withdraw, at the last minute the launch GT title (which pd had spent much of the previous 2 years working on exclusively) based mainly on criticism of a disenfranchised media backed by vocal forums, because Sony really did get too big for their boots for a while (lets hope the internal restructuring has cured this).
It was clearly wrong by Sony/PD in its plans to sell all the content online,fans were rightly disgusted at the extreme cost of this but overall this could prove to be bad for the franchise and its fans.
In my opinion they should have re thought the distribution and content costs of this title and released it, to get it out there to keep the fans and Sony happier, while they developed GT5.

Now we have the situation where there is no GT title on ps3, as a Sony developer PD are now going to be under massive pressure from Sony to get a GT game out in the next year to 18 months.
PD will not IMHO be able to deliver the master piece, we will expect, when we take into consideration the time wasted on the interim GTHD classic title.
Had we had that, the wait for a further 2 1/2 years to devlop GT5 that may have delivered a great title, would have been easier for Sony and its fans to take.
Now, instead, we are going to get a prologue title this xmas as a sweetner, (and for PD to get feedback) then the short developement time for GT5 to launch the following year, if this scenario plays out, I seriously dont expect GT5 to deliver much in content or improvement at all.
What would be ideal now, is that we get prologue this year, which is quite content heavy maybe even with further later additional download content, even if it is not greatly different from GT4, then to have PD and kaz have the balls to say to Sony, That from that point on their will be a further 2 year wait to complete GT5 and bring it up to expected standards! the strive for perfection takes time,time and more time!