Dr is stupid and exploitable

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Voodoovaj, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. 250Cal

    250Cal

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    Are you saying there's a hidden performance enhancement for lower rated drivers?
     
  2. lav01

    lav01 (Banned)

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    No just the opposite, it seemed easier for my main account where it is a dr.d and sr.s. my other account where the car did not seem to handle as well is a dr.e and sr.b. I even put in more laps on the lesser account since the first few laps since I kept going off on that switchback. I qualified on both and did 3 laps on the d.s account and about 10 on the e.b account, and the e.b account was slower and the car did not seem to handle as well on the lower account. First 5 or so laps I went off, so I had to adjust in that one corner and lift. Main account I could stay flat. Same car/track/driver/time and condition and still could not get through flat on the lesser rated account. weird, but that probably led to the loss of the 1sec.
     
  3. Robben

    Robben

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    Grip bug
     
  4. graveltrap

    graveltrap

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    Actually GT Sport needs to get the players that have bought he game into sport mode and racing. Looking at figures generated by the stats site this is by far the biggest group!

    How do they go about doing that is the question!?

    Regarding Matchmaking;

    20 car grids for 3 lap race to me seem pretty pointless IMO especially if you are at the back of the grid, look at rallycross (or rc racing even) for an example of how to make super short races work, 10 cars max!

    This may help get tighter groupings in match making as well.

    They could also restrict entry to races based on DR, ie block B, A and S DR rated players from race A or only allow B, A, S DR rated players into race C. His would also force the higher skilled players together, but in turn a bunch of bitching on GTP about variety and access ;)

    You could also reduce the number of races per hour, again focus what players are on a smaller number of races.

    Regarding quitting;

    DR penalties work by hoping the players care about the rating they have. The big hit for quitting a race is designed to try and stop players from leaving early because they are in a bad position or have made a mistake in the race. What happens in open lobbies, more people leave than finish the race!

    It does actually seems to work for the most part, if people choose to exploit it so they can win a race that is up to them, I would call it bad sportsmanship, how else do you stop people from quitting a race, 24 hour ban?

    Putting trophies in place that require wins and pole positions really doesn’t help matters here.

    Regarding winning;

    In racing there can only be one winner per race, and there are way more racers than races, not winning is the norm for most and people just need to understand that.
     
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  5. Robben

    Robben

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    It's only Race C (8 or 10 laps) which has 20 car grid
     
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  6. BigDawg_1281

    BigDawg_1281 Premium

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    I thought I would test it out yesterday. I had my 2nd account that I tested the grip bug. So, I bought a Gr.4 car with it. Ran 2 or 3 races as an E/B. I even saw you @Voodoovaj. It was easy to qualify up front and even when I spun it was easy to regain spots. But, it felt meaningless. Why was I running with these slower people, when I have much more experience and speed. Not to mention getting rammed and bumped left and right when I was moving through the field.

    I will stick to running in the SR S races. Much more fun, challenging, and so much cleaner!
     
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  7. 250Cal

    250Cal

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    So the higher category you get to, the more the game helps you to go faster?!

    With all due respect, no. I've never seen any data, personal or otherwise, to support that hypothesis.
     
  8. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    I have screenshots of all of my 237 race starts & finishes, but posting enough of them to satisfy you that Im not making it up (really? why would I?) would be ridiculous.

    OK, so you play mostly during busy periods? As I said earlier, I think rabbit mode starts being used when the matchmaking decides there aren't enough players to do close matchmaking, but it seems its threshold for changing mode is pretty high. I tend to play quite late, and we (UK) are at the edge of our region's time zones. I don't believe that at those times there are only enough players for one or two races, since it still normally manages to fill the field (one or two less players at most).

    When I first got up to A I had a few races with close matched grids, then it got later and it started doing the rabbit races. I could post that run later if it would help. But, most of time while I was B I had mixed races as well to some extent, only rarely saw a race without at least one S or A in, and I think some of those times weren't particularly late. What is your recollection of race grids when you were a B? Did you even have many? I know you scooted up the ranks much more quickly than I have, on 9th Jan you said:

    Even now I'm only about 100th in the UK.

    Yes, of course it is. But since we think it matches on SR first, looking at SR S only is reasonable for what I was trying to highlight about the DR part of the matching. And I have virtually no experience of being other than SR S, so I don't know what that group of DR B SR B experiences. Presumably very different though - since DR is limited by SR they may never see any DR S or A.
     
  9. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    You are incorrect. Matchmaking makes it a socialist experiment. The entire point of matchmaking is to have an algorithm that places you with drivers of similar calibre. In theory it's a pure egalitarian version of socialism. The only "top" in this game as you put it, should be the very best of the best, who are so fast that they can only be matched by the best of the best. That is a very select few. The rest of the pack, hundreds of thousands or millions of drivers should, in theory, be faced with grids where they can place anywhere in the field from front to back, given enough races as a sample. The game is supposed to match you up so this can happen. If you are a mid-ranked driver constantly being put into fields with highly ranked drivers, either something is wrong with the algorithm or there just aren't enough drivers to fill out the fields. I can't see how either one isn't a huge problem in terms of individual enjoyment of the game and it's longevity with players.
     
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  10. Robben

    Robben

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    I have 12 wins to my name, mostly achieved in the first 2 months of playing... since then I get maybe 1 every week or 2. At first, when I levelled up, I got frustrated and thought it was pointless. Now I have fun and a sense of achievement from holding or bettering my position in a higher ranked race. The odd podium or win then feels really worthwhile! I got 3rd place from starting 12th in Maggiore last night and was buzzing for ages. Much better than winning a C or D race by 5 seconds (like playing arcade)
     
  11. 250Cal

    250Cal

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    My own data set isn't expansive for SR B and I have none for me personally as a DR B, but of the data I have for DR A, SR B (all 20 car fields), then the grid has been 10% DR A and 40% DR B, on average. So an SR B definitely sees DR As.
     
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  12. Stotty

    Stotty Premium

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    Ah, I understand what you mean now.... but if you're SRS, and DRA, and you play at odd, times, I'm not sure what you expect from the match making.... it's not that the match making system is setting rabbit races, it's because there just aren't enough fast drivers available to fill a grid. Hardly a fault of the system/process.

    To be honest, I don't remember too much about the early races. Took me 5 races to get to DRB, then 3 race days/sessions to get through DRB to DRA, and another 7 race days/sessions to then move to DRS. But I'm not sure exactly how many races I had at DRB.

    Can't have been that many as I still have only 119 races total across 24 race days.... but my rank continues to accelerate (I'm now up to 36th in the World, and 3rd in the UK on DR rank) because I'm consistently matched against the very fastest drivers. And although I'm not quite at their level on outright pace, I'm very consistent, and can hold my own in a race against pretty much anyone round Nurb GP, Suzuka or Brands.

    I've never been THAT bothered about winning as long as I get good, close races. I have 119 races, 33 wins. Beating people like Nissman, Pathom, Derrek, Dayrone, Puupke, numerous TRL's (etc) is a rarity. My recent wins came at Suzuka grp3, which is my best single combo.
     
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  13. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    Are the DR As also SR B? I don't think we've worked out yet exactly how SR limits DR in all cases - seems to be that as you go up in DR, you need e.g. SR A to get to DR A, but if your SR then falls to B it doesn't necessarily drop the DR to match. If they are SR A, that's a good clue as to how the mix of SR and DR affects matchmaking.


    No, I think it could do better. There are certainly enough DR B, even at odd times, to fill grids. Yet it seems to choose to spread from S/A down to D/E instead.

    In the evening when I got to A the switch between modes was clear - some races tightly matched, then some spread out. There wasn't a gradual slide towards being more spread out - one race was (almost?) all S & A, the next was just a few at the top.

    I'm not too bothered about winning either, and it makes it more special when it does happen. But, I'm at 237 races, 19 poles and 17 wins. Overall, that's probably a better ratio than many, but maybe it's less than I'd expect from my level (upper A feels about right at the moment), and certainly I had fewer than chance would suggest while B - most were either while still E/D/C, or after getting to A. That distribution seems harsh for the average DR B.

    I mean, I'm talking about the difference between 5% as chance would suggest, vs 1 to 2% which is what SR S DR Bs seem to get. It seems like a small difference, but it's quite big in terms of the number of races it might take to get that 91 win trophy. TBH, 25% win rate is a different league altogether, although your win rate will slow down now if you stick to the non-rabbit races at busy times.
     
  14. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    Talk about showing an "elitist"attitude!

    All racers should be aiming for wins first off.
    With the attitude you show in your post then all "S" ranked drivers should only race against other "S" drivers as winning against the ranks of lower ranked players is not improving your self proclaimed ungodly skills of being an "S" driver.

    Oh that's right mostly there would only be one or two of you in a race.

    There should never be online sport races that there is more than 1 jump higher or lower in DR ranks within one race. S should never race below rank A. D should never race above racers in class C. B racers could race both A and C racers but should never race S or D racers.

    Actually the DR ranking as far as matchmaking is pretty worthless as is much of the time.

    But any attitude saying the lower ranks should just be racing to "git gud" is BS.

    Some play the game and never have the aspirations, maybe the skill or even the time to become a high ranked racer. Lap time being slower does not mean that racer should not enjoy the game or have a chance to win a race within the ranks of similar skilled players to yourself.
     
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  15. Nando deBem

    Nando deBem

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    You’re right. But I’m not taking about an ideal world. I’m talking about the one we live. The one where there’s not enough players at the same time. But sorry if I offended you. I think I’ve been too harsh. I’ll say I stated my view from when I was at lower rankings. I don’t see not having wins as goal an elitist view, because I didn’t have this goal. For me, it was all about getting more DR points. Is like a giant championship. Points are more important than winning. But again, sorry. Obviously everyone is free to have their own goals, and I hope matchmaking gets better once the test seasons are over and people get back to daily races.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  16. Stotty

    Stotty Premium

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    I only play sporadically... and wins come in batches... I ran 16 straight Nurb GP 10 lappers a few weeks back and didn't win one. I ran 21 Suzi grp 3 5 lappers last Saturday and picked up 13 wins.

    But I seldom finish off the podium.

    People are too worried about winning, rather than the quality of the racing.
     
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  17. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    I really hope you aren't reducing all I've said down to be being "too worried about winning". I'm using the chance of winning as one metric to judge the matchmaking by, that's all. Another would be quality, but felt that would go without saying - a closer matching is clearly better than a spread in that regard.
     
  18. Stotty

    Stotty Premium

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    Not at all... it was just a general observation.
     
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  19. 250Cal

    250Cal

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    Yes


    If you go to SR C your DR will drop to B. I think I've seen an DR S SR B as well.

    As you get close to the boundaries of SR i.e. top of A then you get mixed with SR S and SR A and vice versa.

    If you are a DR A, you never want your SR to drop to a C, even if it means cruising around a 10 lap race to get the 13 SR points on offer.
     
  20. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    Ah, ok :)

    Well, that's true, but I think the matchmaking makes it worse, when it puts a DR S in with DR Bs - can hardly blame them for being worried about ever winning if those cases are what they typically see. If they were mostly only seeing other Bs, and getting a top 3 start, say, 1 race in 7 or so, then maybe it would feel less futile. (I am simplifying, by assuming that quali times are roughly in the same order as DR rating... otherwise, git gud applies).


    If those are both right, then there isn't a consistent rule... typical PD! Dragging down the DR to one letter above the SR makes sense.

    Interesting. I'm almost tempted to drop my SR to A to see how that plays out.

    I don't think it actually steals your points though, in most cases - there's profiles where the DR points don't match the letter. Still, probably not wise to test that out!
     
  21. lav01

    lav01 (Banned)

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    @250Cal. yes I was very surprised. I ran 3 races on a d.s rated account (my normal account), then after reading this, I decided instead of taking the time and pushing my S rating down to try and get a win., I just qualified (I usually start in the back on purpose). I qualified 6th with a 36. then ran the race an got 5th. DR+1, but still a D. Then I switched to an account that I do not use to play gts, or really anything, just the ps store mainly. Then jumped right into the daily on that 'new' account, rated e.b. Ran the daily (same daily) and the car did not handle the same. I could not stay flat through that switchback and in general it just did not seem to handle quite as well. I again qualified 6th, but now with a 37, right at about 1 second slower and could not go through the switchback without lifting. I ran more qualifying laps (around 10) just because the first 5 or so laps I could not get the car through there flat like I could on the other account. The leaders ran about the same times.=, I qualified 6th) I ended up 6th on that race, but I got punted real bad in on a corner and went to 10th, I did get back to 6th. No change in the rating, but I did get some sr points, just not enough to change the ranking.

    I still do not see how the dr ranking works. I usually start in back and usually pass 0-3 people (dr+0-3), but hardly ever lose a place, hence starting last. I have around 150 races and still only up to a dr.d even though my sr is a s. I guess it is just a video game, but it is weird that it would be different like that.
     
  22. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    Personally points and DR ranking level mean nothing to me for the most part. What I find that is important is having a good, close clean race over a full race distance. Many times I actually like starting back towards the rear of the field if you have clean drivers throughout the grid as I can race within a more relaxed atmosphere and losing positions is not really as much as a factor. I have had some great races racing for 14-16th position at times.

    That does not mean at times I would not prefer to start up front and contend for the win.

    Even playing with qualifying times just to see the results the difference of running 5 races at one Q time and being within 2 seconds starting top 3 and then running 5 races at a full 2 seconds a lap faster qualifying time only resulted in being placed in faster lobbies with the gap of the same 2 seconds to the top 3 and not improving on the 8th-14th qualifying position.

    So from personal experience I cannot understand the matchmaking process and lobby placement as to when do mid DR level drivers get to be the rabbit instead of the hound to the higher ranked drivers?

    Different people do play different ways.
     
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  23. Nando deBem

    Nando deBem

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    Just a guess, but if q time is taken into account, maybe in DR A there’s just as much as a discrepancy in times as in S. Aliens are way faster than I am. Maybe high Bs and As are way faster than regular Bs.
     
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  24. TenderLoins

    TenderLoins

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    From my experience the top end of a DR range is where you are typically placed as a grid filler for the higher DR drivers. High DR B Is probably the worst place to be because there are usually anywhere from 2-10 A or S drivers up front with Q times seconds faster than the rest of the field. Also because the difficulty getting from B to A is exponentially hatder than C to B. I think it tok me 2 or three races from C to B when I started a second account to test.

    As soon as you go from say a high C DR to low B, your roll changes from backmarker to rabbit. At mid level it’s more of a crapshoot.
     
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  25. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

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    And let's not even discuss the inverse incentive for SR.

    Someone wants to win, so they wreck you, they lose Sr (hopefully all the way to B or C) They get increased opportunity for wins. They get bumped back up to A or S faster than they drop, so they are incentivised to wreck people again.

    Of course, this is assuming they get a penalty, You can broadside people right off the track and still get a clean race bonus.
     
  26. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    My experience has been a bit different, as a lot of others I started a second account for the grip bug testing but reading all of the threads about people complaining about the ability to gain SR and DR in the lower rankings I wanted to see just how hard it was.

    I did have races where even as a D class racer I was in one race that had every DR ranking in the game in that race.
    It took me 10 races from ground zero just starting to reach a SR S ranking and at that time I had advanced to a mid level C in the DR ranks.

    At 14 races from start I had reached a low level DR B and still at the SR S.

    That journey gave me 5 wins, 4 poles and 4 fastest laps.

    I did find that once I reached the mid level C I was starting to be matched against mostly A and B drivers. After reaching the low level B I am getting matched with the same level of racers in both accounts and my other account is about 60% on the B level bar.

    I do like that the game seems to recognize where you belong in the rankings as it was a very short journey to get back to the same DR as my account since day 1. I have always said that I think the game has me placed skill wise pretty close to where I belong. I do not think at this time I am a DR A racer even though I it is not totally uncommon to beat some A racers in the daily races.

    From my test just for myself I say the majority of people that probably complain about always losing SR or cannot advance DR levels are overestimating their current skill levels in most cases.

    I find it very rare to be the rabbit and mostly start from about 7th to 14th regardless of the Q time I do. I do always Qualify before racing in the Sport races. I think it should be a mandatory requirement before being allowed to race.
     
  27. Stotty

    Stotty Premium

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    Your DR will never increase if you’re finishing bottom half of the grid. You’re qualifying time/starting position has no impact on DR points.

    To max DR points, you need to finish as high as you can (at least top half). The higher quality the grid (how many DR points you’re opponents have relative to you) the better.

    If you constantly race people ranked lower than you, you won’t get many RR points. If you constantly finish bottom half of the grid, even against very strong drivers, you won’t get many points.
     
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  28. Nando deBem

    Nando deBem

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    That’s why they need mixed field.
    So their exchange rates work. If you’re getting into mixed fields, you should be happy. That’s when you rank up!
    I noticed that when I was DR B. I got into a FIA race and won! And got 400 points. Then I got into another... God knows why with a bunch of DR S, and I got 1200, or something, for finishing around 9th.
     
  29. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    It definitely does have a major impact on DR. The 3 and 4 lap races are too short to move up more than a few places or fall back the same amount. On average starting position is finish position, if the race is clean ish, at least for me today. 6 races in the Daily B, 3 I gained a place, One finished the same, 2 I lost a place.

    To max DR points, you need to set a great qualify time, then cash in race after race.
     
  30. IAMDOODLEBUG

    IAMDOODLEBUG

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    I had somewhat of a frustrating evening in sport mode. Started out on 45k hoping to edge towards 50k / DR S, but found myself 3k down before gaining back to just under 44k. My only real complaint is that I had one race where I finished in the door number position and still lost DR. Everything else was largely my fault, yamigawa + miyabi is not a track I'd driven before yesterday so I was never going to be very competitive. There were marginally lower rated drivers whos race pace was slower but they'd set better quali times, so the expectation in most of the races was to gain 7-8 places in order to get positive DR. This highlights the importance of setting your absolute fastest hotlap!