Dr is stupid and exploitable

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Voodoovaj, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. John Crellin

    John Crellin

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    well 1 race every 30 minutes would only halve the total to 65 but I agree, I think there is more to this than just how many B/S drivers are on at the same time. The same math only leaves 4 DR S drvers and 25 DR A so maybe that is where the problem is. not enough DR S/A and everyone else pays for that. So people need to get good so us losers down here in B can race each other lol


    Yeah im with you. Itd be fun to race the other flags. However, do you think this would lower the quality of the connections in the race? lag is already a big enough issue
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
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  2. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

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    Lag and distance are not directly related. It's more an issue of server quality (on both your ISP end and the game server). Besides, even if it were directly connected, east coast players are still closer to Europe than they are to South America. For instance, I am approximately 5000km away from London England, but I am approximately 8000km from Rio De Janiero.
     
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  3. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    No, it is true, regardless of time. @Nando deBem is correct. DR is a (mostly*) balanced system, where (in the usual case) points are transferred from one player to another based on the result. Inflation or deflation of points can happpen, and either would be undesirable. Giving points to those who stay but not taking away points from quitters would result in the total number of points increasing, thus devaluing whatever points you have.

    * 'mostly', because some points have to come into existence to fire up the system, and some points will be effectively lost as players move on to other games. It's a delicate balance and we don't know yet if PD have got it right.
     
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  4. John Crellin

    John Crellin

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    You know, if only we could just give all the points to the DR S guys, The points would then be able to 'trickle down' to the the lower ranks once the DR S guys got too many. That seems like the route to me /s :lol:

    Sorry for the political rant.
     
  5. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

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    I know what you're saying, but in any case it's neither here nor there. I'm saying that the ranking changes too rapidly to be a proper reflection of a player's skill. It should not change immediately. As noted, the ranking and the score do not need to be the same thing.

    So let's say on Monday I have 35000 points and an A rating. My points can fluctuate through the week (or some other set amount of time) and then the sum total of the change over several races can be checked to set my rating again. So, let's say in this scenario, my score is checked again on the following Monday and the sum total of the point change since last Monday is -1000, so now I am still an A.

    The actual score can go up, down, sideways, be transferred, it doesn't matter. A larger sample size of data should be used to determine a driver's rating.

    It's not much of a different philosophy from the FIA race points. Your top three races are taken into account. It allows you to have a bad race or two (or four)

    They are merely using a direct connection between DR score to driver letter grade to give you and idea of how you should be matched, but it does not correlate to reality. A player doesn't change his skill in one day.

    By the same token, why isn't time a factor? If I were an A driver this month, but I went away for 6 months, should I still be an A driver? I likely shouldn't be.
     
  6. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    Actually if that chart has the correct numbers posted and those are world wide figures then actually there is no reason to really even have a separate ranking DR S in the game at the current time.

    DR A from a world wide perspective is not that strong in numbers either compared to the other rankings. It may be better to just combine the S and A DR rankings together or just combine both into the B class. Neither S or A it seems has that many races that are only populated with just their class of racers anyway.

    Then perhaps a matching system using first SR and then Q times would be easier to manage and populate lobbies with closer races. I do not care what anyone says if you do not incorporate lap times to be a major influence in selecting lobbies you will never have close races across the board.
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Nando deBem

    Nando deBem

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    It’s just for us to know who the legends are. I think it might not be a small enough group. I’m S, and there’s an enourmous gap between me and the aliens. If you put everybody together... it will look more broke.
     
  8. sabamber

    sabamber

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    As a side note to the Euro/US matchmaking there is a massive difference in latency (lag) when comparing trans-atlantic and overland data connections. It's not like sattelite tv it needs a physical connection.
     
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  9. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    I have actually seen a few drivers from across the pond racing apparently using a US account but showing their countries flag and their connection bars were no worse and sometimes even better than most drivers from Brazil and many from Mexico.
     
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  10. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    First, I was only arguing for the case that a player quitting should take a DR hit. They have a DNF, it should affect their rating. As for the rest...

    So what if your score - and maybe your rank letter - goes up and down a bit? Have a bad day and it goes down a bit, have a good one and it goes up. It doesn't really matter.

    What is a bad day if it isn't your skill going down a bit? Or not being good on a certain track? It's all part of measuring your performance. It would be just as unrealistic if it (the ranking letter) was artificially smoothed out to some average value each week. But let's be clear, we're talking about small variations here anyway; it's not like your rating is solely determined by your last race!

    Elo-style ratings do have a value that determines how fast a player's score can change. But what to tune it to? Most players will only fit a small number of races into an evening, on average maybe only 2 or 3. You can't make it too slow, or they will take months to get to a representative rating. Even as it is now, it may be too slow for them.

    You started out being a bit ranty about how it shouldn't let you tank your DR rating so quickly by quitting, but, there is absolutely nothing that can be done to prevent people sandbagging. What's the difference between quitting and sitting in the race finishing last? Not a lot; it would still be fast to tank. And yet, it isn't all that fast, since (considering DR alone) it would take about 8 races (or more, if it's tightly matched fields) to drop the 20,000 points from the top of A rank to the bottom of A, for example. What speeds it up is your SR dropping at the same time, which then limits what DR level you can have - there might be a different way to implement that, but then it may have other undesirable trade-offs.

    Matchmaking... it's already been said that there simply aren't enough players to do it brilliantly. However, I do suspect that PD could do a better job of it. They would've designed it with a certain number of players in mind, which is probably more than we actually have. As a result, it seems to fall-back to a mixed field (with rabbit S on top) too readily as the number of players available drops. I'd agree that continuing to match on ranking would be better (even if it means slightly reduced field sizes, but I can't see the correlation... if the field spreads out to include S, A, and the best of the Bs available, that would be fine - if it's as tight as it can manage).

    tl;dr - The DR scoring seems pretty good and reasonably tuned. People will find ways ways to game it, whatever. Daft matchmaking is a different issue.

    If your skills dropped, then a few races in after your break your DR would already be falling towards whatever level you're playing at. What's the problem?
     
  11. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

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    @Outspacer

    Well, given the limited nature of the game, it seems the vast majority are excluded from a fair shot at winning.

    If a player doesn't have a fair shot, they just won't play.
     
  12. Nando deBem

    Nando deBem

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    So, if there’s not enough aliens in the world for them to play amongst themselves... do you want them to stop playing?

    I mean... this has been done in the past.
    Rodney Mullen, skateboard legend.
     
  13. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

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    I think you're focusing too much on the pointy end of the stick. So, there's a few thousand people in the A and S group right?

    But there's hundreds of thousands of players that just said "screw this! what's the point?" Shouldn't there be a system that allows the more casual players a place to race against people who are legitimately at the same level?

    I don't see how someone who was A/S a few days ago can really be considered to be the same skill level as a B/B or a C/B who has yet to achieve better than that.

    Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree. I think I would find it frustrating. I can't help but see this massive number of players who look at the achievement for poles and wins and think "ya, right"
     
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  14. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    I saw a complaint somewhere about 95% of the time having no chance to win the race. If there's 20 players, that's a fair chance! In theory that's as good as it gets unless you're the best online at the time. In practice we get rabbit-style races too often, and over the time that I was DR B I reckon I won only about 1 or 2% of races because of it (that was before lots of people starting tanking their ratings for the trophies). As an A, at least I get to be the rabbit sometimes, but it can be a very hollow victory. All that with SR S.

    Of course you are :) The game can only discern what the player presents - act like a douche, get scored like a douche. I hear your complaint about what people are doing, but the DR scoring is doing the best it can be expected to. Garbage in - garbage out. There is no simple fix. Blame the trophies if you like.
     
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  15. Nando deBem

    Nando deBem

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    Again, I get what you’re saying, but it’s a sport. Like in the name. In sport, there are gonna be people who won’t win. I would say, if you go into a sport expecting somehow that your entitled a win, the problem is not the sport. I don’t understand how you’re gonna fix this problems for the hundreds of thousands, without compromising the individual rights of those on top. It’s not a “socialist” experiment where everybody deserves a win because they bought the game. That’s the point of the game. Train and get better. Different ranks have different goals. A and S should be aiming at wins. Below that, you should be trying to get better and trying to get DR points. The more you get, the closest to the top you are, and that’s something to be proud of. I’m sorry, I think we already discussed everything. See you on track.
     
  16. Tassie_tiger

    Tassie_tiger

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    What's say we forget about the categorising of players for a moment.
    Let's go back to GT6 Quickmatch days.

    Were the vast majority excluded from a fair shot at winning?


    I'm not saying the system is perfect by any means.
    I feel more emphasis should be given towards DR rating when forming the grid, as opposed to (my opinion) what seems to be one heavily focused on SR.
    But still, isn't it a step in the right direction?
     
  17. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    That doesn't sound good, I'd say it's already too easy to get SR S (for anyone who cares to try, that is). To quite a large extent the two go hand-in-hand anyway, just look at http://www.jasonguernsey.net/gts/Driver-Rating . Almost all DR S & DR A are SR S. DR B seems to be split into two main camps, either SR S or SR B. DR C similarly split, but most have SR B or C. DR D mostly SR B or C as well.

    So the interesting one is DR B, where there really seems to be two completely different games being played: one clean, one dirty. Best not to mix the two, I think :)
     
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  18. Tassie_tiger

    Tassie_tiger

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    Ummm, I think I get what you are saying.
    And I agree, SR S is too easy to achieve.

    But I was under the impression the complaint was that lower DR racers are always getting grouped with higher DR racers.
    eg, DR B being grouped with a handful of DR A's and a couple/few DR S's.

    If you wish to avoid that situation, where the vast majority are excluded from a fair shot at winning, then using an algorithm to set the grid that's more inclined towards the DR rating, as opposed to the SR rating, would help.

    A "clean or dirty" race can happen in any SR event.
    I'm not sure how that's a factor if looking to solve the crux of the problem as per the OP.
     
  19. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    It's hard to follow exactly what's being complained about at any given moment!

    The 'rabbit' DR As and Ss are nearly all SR S, so presumably they don't often appear in races that mostly consist of SR B. So I think it's mostly the DR B, SR S drivers that are being denied any chance of winning, and mixing the SRs probably wouldn't help that.

    I think what happens is the matchmaking decides there aren't a lot of people playing (or aren't a lot of DR S/A playing), and then scatters the DR S/A across the races. Keeping them collected together might be fairer - filling their race with the top SR S DR Bs, filling the next race with the next lot of SR S DR Bs, and so on. It does seem to do that more when there are plenty of players. Then for most people it would just be luck of the draw whether they got a pole or not (assuming they have a quali time befitting their DR).

    The other complaint is people tanking their ratings to get wins. They might end up as DR B, SR B (or lower), and take opportunities for wins away from that group. IMO, that can't be fixed in any reasonable way.
     
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  20. Tassie_tiger

    Tassie_tiger

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    Took me a while to stop laughing at your first line. :lol:

    Beyond that ... hang on, now I'm confused.
    Aren't many DR B/SR S drivers being grouped with higher grade SR S drivers?
    Didn't we already establish SR S is too easy?
    I feel I'm still missing your point here, sorry.


    I don't know for fact, but it's easy enough to imagine that between regions, and the number of DR A and S drivers, there isn't really enough to go around to fill rooms of their own.
    Not that personally I think that's an issue.
    I mean, what exactly is wrong with a room of 10 DR A/S drivers?
    Must every room be filled, regardless?
    Sounds reasonable to me considering (not wishing to sound arrogant) that the bottom group of 10 really aren't in the race anyway.
    But hey, that's a different story entirely. :sly:

    As for tanking in the search of achievements/trophies, well each to their own I guess.
    I'm probably more happy to see people tank their DR than inflate their SR.
    But of course people who tank their DR are doing nothing more than taking wins/poles off lower grade drivers, and all in the name of doing so because they feel they are getting ripped off being gridded against higher grade drivers.
    Vicious circle when you think about it. ;)
     
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  21. BSDShoes

    BSDShoes

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    Did a race tonight and saw a DR S in a field full of DR D's and a couple DR C's, the DR S led the whole race but at the finish line he spun out on purpose to cause a yellow flag and anyone that passed got a penalty.

    I don't even know why a DR S got matched in a race full of DR D's and a couple C's (no A or B).
     
  22. TenderLoins

    TenderLoins

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    :cheers:
    This is what I was complaining about. As a high B/S driver I am more often than not one of the grid fillers who are never really in the race.
     
  23. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    Lowering SR is a better way to get fairer matches than tanking DR. I did some Tokyo in the afternoon, DR.S up front out of everyone's league, 1:56 qualifying time with the rest of the room 1:59 and up, DR.B to DR.D, while I was B/S starting mid pack. Then I did the FIA Bluemoon bay race which promoted my DR and dropped my SR to A/A. Suddenly I'm the rabbit, still same qualifying time, starting top 3, managed 3 wins in 6 races. Then as my SR returned to S the top was taken by 1:58's again, still low into SR.S, I guess when I climb up higher it will be 1:56 on pole again.

    And of course it makes sense. When you get to start top 3 as DR.S / DR.A in a room that goes down to DR.D, you'll have an easy race to keep your SR maxed. So those players are always at the far end of SR.S. While I was with the rabbits I easily moved back to SR.S again on Tokyo Expressway of all places, while behind me the carnage went on, penalties up to 28s on the finish, sea of red behind me. It's easy to race clean with 1 or 2 opponents. In a pack of 8 it's a different story.

    The last race I was down to 5th, in the danger zone for T1, got away with a white S just barely after the pinball corner. It became my 3rd win on penalty strategy. I scrubbed my penalty on the last corner exit (was in 2nd) while 1st place was scrubbing his right before the finish line, I made up all the distance and won by 0.3s zooming past him at the last moment. Silly game.

    While my DR went up from B to A, the races became easier since my SR went down from S to A. Is that how it's supposed to work? :)
     
  24. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    :D

    Yes and yes.

    Matchmaking seems to have a couple of different ways of doing its thing. Say you have 50 SR S racers available to fill 5 10-slot races, and there's 5 DR S, 10 A, 30 B and 5 C.

    Mode 1 ends up like:
    Race 1: S, S, S, S, S, A, A, A, A, A
    Race 2: A, A, A, A, A, B, B, B, B, B
    Race 3: B, B, B, B, B, B, B, B, B, B
    Race 4: B, B, B, B, B, B, B, B, B, B
    Race 5: B, B, B, B, B, C, C, C, C, C

    Mode 2 has all races like:
    S, A, A, B, B, B, B, B, B, C

    Obviously, mode 2 is far more likely to deny ALL of the Bs any chance of winning. Mode 1 gives 3 of them a pole (probably).

    My point was mainly that it picks mode 2 far too often - I call it rabbit mode.

    I've nothing against not filling every race, but let's not forget that the letters are arbitrary levels on the points scale. A low A is far closer to a high B than they are to an S. So, nothing wrong with filling up that room with the top Bs available either. They might not have a chance of winning that race, but the hope is that they aren't always stuck as fillers - their ratings change, other player's ratings change, and most importantly the number of available players changes. It gives a good chance for those Bs to fight for precious DR points - losing to any S or high A doesn't hurt much, but beating one or two As would be a nice boost.

    Could well be an element of that, sure! Fixing the first problem might help with the second :)
     
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  25. Stotty

    Stotty Premium

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    Not my experience at all - I only see DRB on a grid very occasionally. My grids are 100% DRA/S, typically a 50/50 split suring busy periods.

    A grid like ‘2’ above would earn me few, if any DR points.

    Where is your evidence or data to support this? Or is something that you just made up to support your argument?
     
  26. N33D4SP33D177

    N33D4SP33D177

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    Solution to all your problems...

    Gt sport needs more players!

    How you may ask?

    No frickin idea!
     
  27. 250Cal

    250Cal

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    It's a massive over simplification ignoring a number of factors, not least the impact of SR on matching.
     
  28. JacksHerer

    JacksHerer

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  29. lav01

    lav01 (Banned)

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    I agree it does not work all that good. I was bored tonight so instead of tanking my sr.s rating on my main account (dr.d sr.s). I logged into my EU acct and did the brands hatch daily in the lancer. Trying to test your theory. Started with my main account. It did work as I qualified. Here is what I did. I turned on the braking warning and driving line. I usually play with all that stuff turned off. On my main account, I ran about 1 second faster, low 1.56s and I can get through the split corner where in the GP course you turn hard left and on the course for today is the short course and on a good line you do not have to lift even though it says brake. On every other turn I hit the brakes as soon as it told me to. Trying to keep human error as much out of the equation as possible, drove on top of the driving line. Top guys were about high 53s.

    Then switched accounts to an account I have just for the EU (I live in america) ps store etc.. Ranked e/b level 2. Only messed around with a few license tests previously. So, basically brand new. I turned on the driving line and the brake indicator, apex marker just like on my main account and tried the same thing. I could not get the car through that left right switchback before the last turn like I could on my main account. Even with the right line the car would not hold. I had to lift. Same car, same track, 5 minutes apart, no drugs or alcohol in my system...awake and alert. Best time I could muster up was a low 57. Pretty much a solid second back. Plenty of people had major offs, but the front couple people had high 53s. Even though their rating was low.

    my .02c

    Oh, and where can you check on your points for dr/sr numbers? I had it and windows updated and it rebooted my machine. I did not bookmark it and I can't find it on a search.
     
  30. Robben

    Robben

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