drift faster than grip

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Originally posted by bengee
grip takes as much skill to go fast in as drift does... and in reality they end up at the same point eventually... but away from this maximum speed... where racers choose to drift or grip slower inorder to set up for a corner... this is where true skill comes in... the true skill is being able to drive in a way that maximizes the time that you can be at your fastest... the true skill is in line taking...
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You're right, they're both equally difficult. I've been driving grip so long though, in real life I mean, that it bores me. If I want to drive fast grip, I'll go do it in real life. Drifting's not so accessible in real life =)

And you're also right that the true skill is in line taking. Line taking in grip is what I find so easy. I don't even have to think about it, I just see it. In drifting it's difficult because there's such a smaller margin of error because you've already broken the tire's traction limit. True skill is much easier to observe. Drifting seperates the mice from the men.
 
You're right, they're both equally difficult. I've been driving grip so long though, in real life I mean, that it bores me. If I want to drive fast grip, I'll go do it in real life. Drifting's not so accessible in real life =)

And you're also right that the true skill is in line taking. Line taking in grip is what I find so easy. I don't even have to think about it, I just see it. In drifting it's difficult because there's such a smaller margin of error because you've already broken the tire's traction limit. True skill is much easier to observe. Drifting seperates the mice from the men.
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Well said pergatory.

-Tom
 
Originally posted by pergatory
It doesn't matter which alone is faster, the best racer uses both drift and grip together. Drift being the harder of the two, that's why I'm so bored by grip and never do it. Grip is easy to me. But it's still very effective.
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Actually I agree and disagree with you. You are correct in saying the best racers use both. It really boils down to the course which is faster. Drifting you are going to enter into a turn with a lot of momentum. Even if you are able to enter in with an outside inside outside approach and do it perfectly, you lose too much speed at the apex at a turn that is a medium to high speed turn. Thes turns grip will beat drifting. The reaason being is the fact that throughout a turn the car is accelerating if you take it properly with grip. With Drift you lose speed which is no great mystery at the apex of the turn. Then at the end of the turn your exit speed will be slower and setting up for straights it will be slower.True races are won in the turns. Any low speed turn is where drifting has its advantage. At a low speed turn the car's momentum is not as much as a medium to high speed turn. You can easily keep a constant speed throughout the turn and exit realitively the same speed as grip. Another problem with drifting fast is the fact of the wheel dripping at the end of the turn. You will lose engine power when it grips again and it struggles to get up to speed. In the end it matters what course are there elevations in the turns and how technical are they. I can't say one is faster, but I can say that each has its advantage.
 
well said.... that is what i have been trying to say forever... guses i could never get it across... each has its advantages... and its how the driver uses each adn the line that is taken that determines what is fastest... or rather who is faster...

you know what later i will post the real physics that determines what driving will be faster and why drifting fully through turns will yeild slower lad times... it really makes common sense... be back alter just dont have time right now
 
Originally posted by miata13B
Well to my conclusion and not by times, just by theory the real place where a Drift has the advantage is around turn number 7. The slow 180 degree turn.
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The only situation where drift would be a faster method to clear a turn would be a tight hairpin (or 180 degree turn), where the cars turn rate and radius comes to play. By flicking the tail out in the turn you can increase youre turnrate over that what would be possible with grip. This methods advantage allso is dependant on the cars grip level and turning abilities. Just a thought I had, correct me if Im wrong.
 
I know this topic has been posted before, Grip is faster than drift 90% of the time, yes there are exceptions. There are exceptions to every circumstance. Grip is a faster overall driving style. Yeah, you may hear of "Joe McStreet Racer" Beating a grip driving car..But that's still only 1 event.
 
I think you guys are underestimating drifting. Drifting can have a faster exit speed than grip. With drift, you can obtain your exit angle pretty much just as you past the apex, and immediately begin accelerating out of the corner. In grip, any acceleration before you completely clear the corner will later stifle you as you try to turn away from the direction that you had just accelerated in. Some of the speed will be kept, but you are left fighting your own power. In other words, ironically, grip wastes energy at the exit, and drift doesn't. Any corner with a good straight after it will be better to drift. Drifts are slow in transfers though, so if it's a slallom, better to grip. Also the same is true if you're just coming out of a straightaway and want to keep your speed as late as possible, grip is better for that. It really comes down to not just the corner you're on, but the course as a whole. Of course, on top of all this, if you're really going for speed, you want to not hit the apex right at the center, but take a late apex before a big straightaway and an early apex after one (to maximize exit speed and entry speed respectively).
 
i think its sad what people think of grip and drift ... i mean in reality they are just on two sides of hte spectrum... both can be slow... both can be used when maximum grip is not needed... and both have there advantages... it is a maximum grip or the point at which grip is almost exceeded that fastest anything is achieved... and this is called four wheel drift... always and at anytime... just below this one is still driving grip... just above one is drifting... again i will spend some time later describing what is oging on and why once you pass this point one will definitely drive slower...
 
FOr all you people, if you use drift with grip, then you will be faster, and its how skill you are, then you can make anything possible, for me, i use both grip and drift together, i can get a fastest time on any road course, mostly all the courses seems easy for me and i kow all the turns and i know whats the max turn speed on every turn, so i can always drift for fun and grip to race
 
Originally posted by bengee
i think its sad what people think of grip and drift ... i mean in reality they are just on two sides of hte spectrum... both can be slow... both can be used when maximum grip is not needed... and both have there advantages...
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Well said!

it is a maximum grip or the point at which grip is almost exceeded that fastest anything is achieved... and this is called four wheel drift...[/B]
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No, it's called grip. Maximum usage of available traction. Drifting is when you sacrifice traction for a better line. Four-wheel drifting is similar, but taking it one step farther to obtain the perfect line. In both drifting situations, you have less traction than you would with grip, because the moment you lose traction the friction is reduced considerably.
 
Originally posted by keitshi
The only situation where drift would be a faster method to clear a turn would be a tight hairpin (or 180 degree turn), where the cars turn rate and radius comes to play. By flicking the tail out in the turn you can increase youre turnrate over that what would be possible with grip. This methods advantage allso is dependant on the cars grip level and turning abilities. Just a thought I had, correct me if Im wrong.
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Last I checked that is bascially what I was saying. . . Also another good method which some of the fastest GT players in the world use is in SSR11 during the 2 consecutive 180 turns right after T1 going clockwise on the track. It is the point and shoot method which involves a drift to get the car pointed the right way and shoot out the turn. During an OLR, we used the mazda 787 and it considerably decrease lap times by up to .5 seconds :D

Originally posted by pergatory
Well said!



No, it's called grip. Maximum usage of available traction. Drifting is when you sacrifice traction for a better line. Four-wheel drifting is similar, but taking it one step farther to obtain the perfect line. In both drifting situations, you have less traction than you would with grip, because the moment you lose traction the friction is reduced considerably.
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Here is the problem, not everyone is fully aware of a 4 wheel drift. . . why don't we come up with a definition of it that we can use as a reference and then at that point this argument would be further in progress and we can come to a common grounds on an answer as a group :D. After reviewing the thread there are definitive points made on both sides that this argument's direction has been going. Let's put it all together now and come up with the definition and come to a conclusion now :D
 
Originally posted by keitshi
Yes, I know. I was just explaining how I visualized the theory.
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reiteration, it is a killer sometimes :D
 
ok when you are driving... there is always friction on the wheels that we call traction... so if we want to understand how cars move especially when we are considering degrees of traction and hte driving that comes from it...

ok so there are two types of friction static and kinetic... when a wheel is turning and the wheel rotates so that the speed of the car and the rotational velocity of hte wheel are the same... static friction is present... however when the wheel begins to rotate faster than the car is moving... kinetic friction is present... and we call the latter a loss of traction...

now imagine pushing a heavy block on carpet... what happens... if you dont push hard enough the block wont move... and if you vary your push it wont move until you reach a particular value... we will call this value the critical or maximum value of friction... and it is the value of friction at the point where static friction reaches a maximum and after this point of applied force... kinetic friction acts...

so static friciton increases to match the applied force until the critical value of static friction is reached at which time the value of hte friction force greatly decreases and is called kinetic friction...

now the above is strictly true only under no slip conditions... or in other words in theory... in reality... slip occurs even in the lowest values for and even with rigid systems.... however add a non rigid and easily deformed tire into the system and slip will occur noticeably even when static friction is still in action... therefore at any time slip angles are in effect in car racing... even if not noticeable... and these slip angles become even more noticeable as the traction approaches the limit of the static friction... this is where the term for drift was originally used... to describe the point at which the tires complete traction is being utilized... on the very edge of static and kinetic friction transfer... this is four wheel drift... it has nothing to do with exhibition drift... the real defintion of four wheel drift... from ask.com...

Four-Wheel Drift - Reaching the limit of adhesion and going through the fence juuust right

each tire as said int he gt3 booklet thing... has a friction circle about it... this is basically a force vector that can point in several directions... and can have a max value of hte critcal value when in static friction and the value of kinetic friction when surassping this limit... friction is used to turn ( for a moment balance)... accelerate ( which inludes braking)... and if i am forgetting anything else... well that too)

ok...i have no where talked about line yet... an before that i think we have to see what can be noted from what i have said above...

if one applies the breaks without surpassing static friction by turning the car... breaking distance can be shorter... but this must be done in the straight and not in midtrun...

acceleration out of a car is most useful of tires potential when the car is not surpassing static friction... i.e when the car is not turning...

these are the simplest things that can be drawn from the analysis... slightly more complicated ones depend on the line taken...

for every line... there is a speed at which the maximum/critical grip is obtained... a speed too fast will result in exhibition drift and a transfer to kinetic friction... and a speed too slow will result in grip as i believe many to think of it... and it is below the critical value of static friction... duh... so if we think about it... staying at this max value... and keeping hte four wheel drift... is the fastest way through a corner... ignoring of course how we are getting into and out of this corner... so for basics... choose the optimum line(s) where the most speed can be carried througha turn without surpassing or underscutting the maximum value of friction between the wheels and the ground... this does not mean that we stay at one speed however... one speed only applies to a circular line... other lines means that one uses a technique like letting go of hte gas coupled with steering... or accelerating slightly coupled with steering... braking usually results in drift... exhibition that is...

that doesnt cover it all but i covers the basics...

ok... one other thing... drifting after the apex of you line is usally a bad thing... esp if a straight follows... you want maximum acc at this point and i cant think of a time where the speed carried through a turn can be better sued than by accelerating upon it...

and drifting when entering a turn is not always a bad thing... it lets you enter faster than someone breaking... and decreases the time spent in the straight away prior to the corner... but this i find is best used in tighter corners...

one other thing... there are times where brakeing and therefore drifting between lines in midcorners will increase you lap times and make you faster in corners...

ok i know this is long... hehe... said it was gonna be.... hope ppl read it... and i hope i didnt leave anything out... and that what i said makes sense... i do not believe in prrof reading...

but the amin thing is to kick everyones asses and feel good while doing it... so go kick everyone elses ass... any questions... pm me...
 
All very good info, and all correct EXCEPT I still disagree about four-wheel drifting. What you are describing is not drifting it is grip. The car will not be sideways at all it will be the perfect grip line, highest speed through the corner without breaking traction. Sure the outside edge of the tire might slip a little but the tire will maintain traction. Four-wheel drifting is merely drifting without countersteer. It is faster because it allows you to accelerate without resistance in the direction you are pointed (hopefully the exit angle). Taking the perfect drift line, and obtaining the exit angle almost immediately, four-wheel drift is possible. It is by far the most difficult style of driving in FR and MR cars. AWD cars use this style all the time, so in a sense it is more difficult to drift AWD because the set-up must be perfect, but at the same time it is much easier to control the car.
 
in four wheel drift the car is never sideways... fourwheel drift is the perfect way through anyline... the reason why it is drift is because of the slip that is ignored due to the idealization of no slip analysis... four wheel drift is not drifting with or without countersteer... it has everything to do with grip and nothing to do with loosing grip or in other words using drift as most people think of it... 4 wheel drift has little or no smoke and little or no screeching... at lesat in the game... anything where large amount of smoke are immited from wheels... what is now conventional drift is being employed becuase kinetic friction is being employed... kinetic friction has a much lower value than the limit of static friction... which means that steeing inputs acceleration inputs and braking inputs allow the car to remain controllable without using gross amount of force...

lol if you believe that 4 wheel drift is grip driving or if you believe that it is the purest form of drift... that is up to you... but no matter what you believe it is the fastest way around any corner... once you can do this you will be goddam fast... and it is how you wish to drive slow... and enter the corner that will make you a grip or drift racer...

again i must emphasize... 4 wheel drift has nothing to do with exhibition drifting... it has nothing to do with kinetic friction... except that you are at hte very limit between static and kinetic friction... and it has everything to do with going fast...

i guess what i didnt describe enough is that at hte limit of static friction... one can never really be at this value you are always fluxtuating between kinetic and static friction values... never long enough in kinetic to exhibition drift... becuase the time in large static friction values balances it and regains traction... i guess the easiest way to visualize is that 4 wheel drift is a balancing act between grip and drift neither in one or the other for a very long amount of time... hope this helps explain y this is called 4 wheel drift and not fast grip or fast drift driving...
 
Originally posted by 280Z_surge
I am firmly convinced that there is at least one scenario (possibly more than one) in which drifting can result in clearing a corner faster than grip racing. BUT... i don't know in what situations this would be true. Can anybody tell me when/where drift racing will be faster than grip?
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1) When Keiichi Tsuchiya(Drift King) is driving.
2) when using a racing drift line, not a show off drift line.
 
You're twisting my words. I'm not saying 4-wheel drift is grip, you are. I'm saying what you're describing isn't 4-wheel drift. Where did you get that definition?

What you're describing is what is done in F1. It's what's done in NASCAR. Pretty much all timed races are done at the maximum traction point you describe. It's called grip. 4-wheel drifting is something completely different. 4-wheel drifting, BY DEFINITION, takes place with all four wheels at a loss of traction. Believe me, the car is VERY sideways. The only reason it's faster is because of the line that it allows you to take. Your tires have less traction but it is still faster.
 
i am not trying to twist your words... that statement i made was to tell people... whoever... that 4wheel drift will always be the fastest way no matter how you characterize it...

what i am talking aobut is done in f1 and it began in those gran prix races when air foils werent used for down force...

let me explain myself as best as i can...

in four wheel drift you are never sidewyas... while slip angles are employed... they are never anything as big as those used in exhibition drift...

in four wheel drift the optimum slip angle is used... and this is the slip angle at which maximum traction on the wheels is gained... as i said before whenever you drive close to the limit of static friction... what we call traction... slip angles will occur... they do not occur becuase of a prolonged loss of traction... rather becuase of the fact that the no slip analysis that we are used to in physics classes is an idealization and in fact there is slip... even more due tot he fact that traction will always be regained and lost because it is impossible to reach the limit of traction without teetering about it...

i believe what you mean to say is that...
4-wheel drifting, BY DEFINITION, takes place with all four wheels at the loss of traction.
in essence we are saying the same thing... it occurs at the loss of traction... which is the point of maximum traction... i.e the point right before traction is lost... in 4wheel drift traction is never lost for a finite amount of time...

i think it would do some good if i explained what i think constitutes the different types of driving...

grip... slow or fast driving staying within the boundaries of static friction and not utilizing noticable slip angles...

4 wheel drift... using hte maximum available traction which constitues the need for slip angles...

drift... exhibition drift surpasses the limit of traction and uses kintic friction as its grip... a large ragne of slip angles can be employed...

now... you believe that 4 wheel drift makes you go sideways... it doesnt... infact the degree of the slip angle is only dependent upon the amount of down force... ie the maximum amount of grip... the larger this maximum is the smaller the slip angle and the more the car appears to be gripping... this occurs in current day f1... in the past the four wheel drift was more evident in racing due to no downforce... and relatively poor aero designs of cars that did not aid grip nearly as well as present day designs...

the reason y 4 wheel drift is fast is not just because it uses the maximum grip available... but also becuase the lines that can be achieved allow for faster entry speed... greater exit acceleration... and a better line and more speed on this line...

this is how i usually drive... although i in no way claim to be able to four wheel drift on command... i am getting better tho...

Alison Hine on cornering: “I use a little trail braking going into most corners to rotate the car into the corner, try to balance the car on the throttle through the middle of the corner, using a touch of left foot braking if necessary to tuck the nose down to the apex, and then try to get the car straight for the exit so I can mash the throttle as early as possible. Of course, in most slower corners, you have to feed in the power carefully, keeping the tires right at their peak slip ratio, waiting for that moment when they can take full throttle and you can nail it.

i believe what this individual is saying is that they initiate a drift after breaking on the straightaway... use left foot braking and other techniques to control the slip angle and regain traction near the apex of hte line taken... come out facing the straight and not needing to utilize traction for turning... can maximize exit speed and acc... this is how i take hairs...

and i use similar methods on all turns...

i am not saying that when you use four wheel drift that you should never break traction... but when you do it is not part of the four wheel drift... that is exhibition drift in one sort or another... very useful however... furthermore it is possible to utilize fourwheel drift without ever breaking traction... i can do this on some corners in ss11 and on seattle hair as well as some other turn somewhere i forgot...

i tried to post this before but it didnt come out so i may have forgotten some stuff... i hope this explains what i am trying to say... in no way do i classify 4 wheel drift as either grip or drifting... but it resembles drift much more than grip becuase of hte use of slip angles...

but never is the car sideways... that is always exhibition
 
Ahh, we must just have different opinions on what grip and drift are then. What I meant by loss of traction wasn't loss of static friction but exceeding the maximum traction point, what you're referring to as exhibition drifting. While I'm confident in my knowledge, I see your point about slip angles and will simply leave it at a disagreement in terms =)
 
hahaha... i dunno if we are really disagreeing about anything important... it doesnt matter... as long as you are fast... know what you are doing or at least can feel it... and if you can show off and know what you are doing...

i am also confident in my knowledge lol... well about most things... but i am always learning... always...

nice talking about it with you... i do not always explain things well... hope that at least some of what i said made sense to ppl out there... i guess this means the thread will die huh...
 
You're right, and I don't know about others but it made sense to me which is why I found this thread so interesting. Almost felt like I was on Club4AG heheh, although you don't really see to many deep discussion like that these days. It's more like "I keep blowing head gaskets." Then you say "what boost are you running?" and he says "2 bar." That should be the end of the conversation right there. (Not that I'm dissing Club4AG, just that I think the site has become more for everyone interested in the car rather than enthusiasts per se, which may or may not be a good thing I'm not really sure.)
 
haha... sometimes i feel the same way about this site... but ehhh people gotta talk about what interests them... i wonder how many ppl actually took the time to read what we wrote...
 
Some are too naive to know what to read. I guess they just need patience to understand all this jargon that you guys speak.
 
lol... if asked i would explain what i mean... i guess i just use what i am used to hearing/reading... and of course using
 
Yes 4 Wheel drifting is probably the fastest way though certain corners, but you have to remember utilizing a 4 wheel drift isn'tnessicary all the time so the whole idea of the 4 wheel drift being faster or anything along those lines wouldn't work, I'm pretty sure that the basis of this discussion that which is faster around a course utilizing one driving style throughout every corner on the course. In which case 4 wheel drifting would deffinatley not be the fastest meaning that grip driving would prevail. Excuse me if I beat a dead horse here, I only read about 3/4s of this thread after my last post.
 
lol... well i believe we kinda moved into the fastest way through a corner... at lest that is what i was talking about... and i never claimed that through the fast corners that drifting in any fashion was faster... although theoretically a four wheel drift with a slight slip angle would still be fastest... but really what would be the point...

personally i dont care about the lap times on a track... just get a car that has a higher top speed than another and it will always prevail... its all about corners... corners... and again corners

if a person only utilizes one form of driving through a course that driver is not going to be fast... different corners call for different methods... and while racing other cars... different situations call for a different approach...

much more of hte time the actual entry of a particualr corner is what is most important... and when corners begin to things like the first large uish turn on apricot or the box turns in seattle... you know continuous turns... it doesnt matter so much how you enter the first one ... but how you enter the second and how you accelerate out of hte second... as long as hte first one is realtively fast... a good line and entry/exit will be rewarded with a faster overall lap...

well anyways... a fast driver is a fast driver... that is all that can be said...

just accept it people... every style of driving has its purpose and just using one is restricting and damaging do your ability to race... whether in the game or in real life...
 
I accept it :)

In the real world and in the game, Everything depends on one another. It's like a domino effect. The variables keep on changing, so in order to deal with those you must be able to have different methods of taking care of business. And in racing, the business is finishing the lap the fastest. Depending on the corner, the car, the road, the tire and physics play a major role in how you race. If you know how to deal with that and the enviromental variables efficiently, then that's the fastest way to race.
 
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