drift faster than grip

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What you guys are talking about is the grip driver's definition of 4-wheel drifting. It's a term they use to describe the closest thing to drifting that is ever really applicable in grip driving. In other words, they call it drifting because the wheels are sliding just slightly. The grip paradigm is limited though in that the whole idea of grip is to not go sideways. When you look at the big picture rather than the grip picture, true 4-wheel drift involves a complete loss of traction on all 4 wheels. The whole idea behind 4-wheel drifting is to get all four wheels pointed in the direction of the exit of the corner very early, in many cases before you pass the apex and in some cases even before you enter the corner. 4-wheel drifting is more sideways than 2-wheel drifting. The result is that you can begin acceleration out of a corner WITHOUT the resistance of the front wheel traction that occurs in 2-wheel drifting.
 
ok perg... you think of 4 wheel in your way and i will think of it in mine... i guarantee that the use of what you are describing is not going to be 4 wheel drift... well at least hte way i am interpreting it... but in essence it is exactly what i am describing... drift in the beggining, regaining traction already pointed in the correct direction, and accelerting with the maximum potential of the tires pointing in direction desired...

the result is a higher intial speed at the start of exit acc, and a great acceleration force available to the wheels becuase no traction is wasted to balance the turning motion of the car ( its moment)... this simply occurs because there is none...

again 4 wheel drift is cornering at the limit of traction on all four wheels... i.e... sitting on the very maximum of static friction available to the wheels... this is the point at which traction loss occurs but not the point of traction loss...
there is a big difference...

imagine a graph that looks like this ( ignore the periods)
../|
./ |________
/

the line represents the static friction part and the straight section the kenetic friction part...

the point at which traction loss occurs is right at the straight down part... a place that doesnt really exist and you can only aproach it as a limit... the limit of traction...

the point of traction loss is the straight horizontal line just after the vertical line... the value of friction here is much lower...

static friction (as used up and until the very limit of what we call traction) has a much higher value that kinetic friction ( what we use when we say loss of friction)... now i hope we all agree that the world is governed or can be explained by physics... ok good... what is touching hte ground... the wheels... the more force that can be applied to each wheel at a certain time the faster the car can go... ok... therefor int he same situation.... being at hte limit of static friction is always faster when exiting a turn...

entering a turn is different in some cases... because a better angle for exits can be acheived by braking traction... this occurs only in hairpins and consecutive corners where the first one is sacrificed for a better line in the second or third...

i do not think that we are really talking aobut different things perg i think that we are just discribing them differently...
 
Hey guys it has been a while since I have posted on this thread but, I got a challenge for you, It invovles taking a mildbrid and racing it. http://gtplanet.net/forum/t-27149.html check it out. I would love to get some drifters versus the grip racers in this league. It would give you a chance to prove which is faster in GT3 :D
 
Well now that that's settled I think we can come to terms that 4 Wheel drifting is the act of using certain slip angles to achieve the maximum speed through a corner when speaking in terms of racing, however when speaking in terms of exhibition 4 wheel drifting is the loss of traction in all 4 tires for the majority of the length of the cornter. :D
-such a diplomat
 
lol driftster... but that is not fast.... (reffering to in terms of exhibition...)

your thing sounds fun miata... but sadly i can create no type of hybrids... you think its worth it to get a xport or sharkport to create them???
 
Well think of it this way, you get a sharkport you can make hybrids, get the Diablo, AND!!! Make vids. Just imagine drifting a Civic, I mean REALLY Drifting a civic, not azz dragging
 
Yeah, he liked it, he also said it was one of the loudest,nicest loud cars he's been in. Asside from his Favorite "Lambo" I still can't believe he picked the lambo over the Bugatti EB110
 
Originally posted by bengee
lol driftster... but that is not fast.... (reffering to in terms of exhibition...)

your thing sounds fun miata... but sadly i can create no type of hybrids... you think its worth it to get a xport or sharkport to create them???
Click to expand...
well, it is hard to say if that is worth it for that point exactly. . . There are a ton of things that are able to be done with it. You can create saved games and otherthings with it, plus you have the ability to save your memory cards on the computer so you don't have to get extra ones which cost around $20 US. Another big plus is that you can compete in the worldwide OLR -> Online League Racing. They require it to verify times. There are many things you can do with it. It is up to you. Hybrids are fun cars and it gives more replay value to GT3 IMO :D
 
well anyways im back, i forgot about this forum, well someone in here told me to do some arguments, so here i am, but for me, i dont really want to argue, i want to tell you all about the special techniques i got but its like its hard for me to explain so when i explain it, before say its impossible and they started to hate on me, but i know im right, but its all good u know, well if u want to see my video then hummm maybe when i have time, i'll show it to you or u can go to gtplanet.net/gallery and go to the GT3 video and search for my fastest time lap of my subaru on Trial Mountain, if u dont want to then i could careless!!!!!!!!
 
lol i watched the thing on your sig... i was thinking you were doing that with slicks.... but super softs makes more sense... dam that vr4 was going hella fast... it was jumping lol
 
hey thanks for watching the video, i finish making alot of it, i made everythign with super soft, because i cant play any other tires, well all you guys be waiting for some FF Drifting Tribute and a 240 SX tribute and an FR tribute, what should i make next, 4WD tribute and what? oh well i'll think about it, so good luck!!!
 
bengee, you're right that what we are describing would basically be the same thing, if the car had one wheel. Fortunately that's not the case =) So here we are arguing.

However, I'm curious as to how your 4-wheel drifting works. I understand everything you've said so far about traction, slip angles, etc., but you haven't said anything about execution. The way you describe it makes it sound impossible. The whole idea behind my 4-wheel drifting is to obtain the exit angle very early by sacrificing traction. How can you obtain that early angle without being sideways? Also, through a corner, how can you push all four tires to the point of maximum traction at the same time since each tire has a different path through the corner?
 
i do exactly what you describe in haripins...

on other turns where too much of a slip angle slows you down too much i appraoch the limit just as i would initiate a drift... but i bleed off more speed in straight line braking... brake while turning to bring the car to the very limit... or rather tettering on both sides of the limit of traction... never loosing traction for more than a split second on most turns... and when this happens the car will turn with little or no steering input and just throttle control and left foot braking... so you still have a slip angle on medium sharp turns... which allows you to carry more speed through the turn and accerate much longer than grip driving because the car will be turning ( due to the moment you induced earlier in the turn) while you accelerate out of the corner... if this makes no sense i am sorry... to do what i am describing just try to drift with minimal smoke... good place to start is ss11 or anywhere else with slower corners... then move on to higher speed ones... the slower corners in ss11 seem to put me at the optimum velocity for entering them... esp the one that is two 90 degree turns right before the hairpin to the straight to the chicane to the finish line... when i get a port or vid card i will show you what i mean...

how can you push all four tires to the point of maximum traction at the same time since each tire has a different path through the corner?

that would be the ideal case... and the key would be how would i know anyways lol...

i think though that this can be approximated... however... and i think i do a pretty good job... i could be faster tho...

basically it uses the same concepts as drift...

you can use the tires grip in several ways... slip angle... steering... braking... and accelerating... this coupled with weight transfer will push your tires to the limit... this is why suspension is extremely important... no matter how you intend to drive...

as i said... what i describe is what i aim for... in reality i am fairly sure i always appraoch maximum traction on my rear wheels more than my front wheels... especially when entering corners... especially on my outside rear wheel... which is what prolly gives me my slip angles and allows me to control my cars angle with the throttle...

anyways it is not nessecary to have all the wheels at this maximum point for four wheel drift... and this maximum point changes from wheel to wheel when in a corner, because each is under different loads... this means that in general the outside wheels will have a greater avaiable traction than the inside ones... and deceleration/ acceleration will make a difference between rear and front wheels... while it may be hard to imagine... this ideal case is possible under the right circumstances... but again i try to aproach this in my racing... and i am getting better...

i am not sure that anything i say can show you what i do lol... one day perg i will show you and you can show me what you do... then we will not have to waste out time trying to describe something...

anyways i am not even sure that i described it satisfactorly...just ask if you ahve more ?'s
 
Originally posted by pergatory
bengee, you're right that what we are describing would basically be the same thing, if the car had one wheel. Fortunately that's not the case =) So here we are arguing.

However, I'm curious as to how your 4-wheel drifting works. I understand everything you've said so far about traction, slip angles, etc., but you haven't said anything about execution. The way you describe it makes it sound impossible. The whole idea behind my 4-wheel drifting is to obtain the exit angle very early by sacrificing traction. How can you obtain that early angle without being sideways? Also, through a corner, how can you push all four tires to the point of maximum traction at the same time since each tire has a different path through the corner?
Click to expand...

Humm.. Consider this, and bengee please tell me if you agree.
In the Dynamics class I took well looked at friction exactly as you explained it.

Lol, I had this whole theory figured out but I thought of something much simpler.

Well you don't really need to consider all 4 wheels. Since the wheels are all attached to a central body and we are only considering lateral friction loss you can consider the front as 1 and the rear as 1.

Lets say one front wheel loses traction this means that the wheel is sliding laterally, therefore the other front wheel must also slide over or be torn off. This, have being said, dictates that; when a tire reaches its friction limit, the tire on the opposite side must also be at its friction limit.

This simplifies the whole concept of a slip or drift angle. For fast cornering we want the rear tires to have a slightly higher slip than the front, and by controlling throttle position and steering input it is not too difficult for a professional driver to have all 4 wheel at or very close to their friction limit.

The idea of getting completely sideways as early as possible and having all 4 wheels sliding is admirable and something I do strive for when drifting, but it is not fast. In some cases a slight drift at the beginning of a turn will help with the exit, as it will allow the driver to get on the gas earlier. A perfect example is licence test S2 with the GT40. This car understeers, so it must be thrown slightly sideways to compensate.

Now I just feel like I’m just going over things that have already been said.

So that’s all I have to say for now.
 
Just to add something else.

For perg, it's lose all traction to slow down, get right angle, speed up and leave. For bengee, it's push tires to the max, slow down while turning, speed up while turning, leave corner, say byebye.

I'm not saying your technique is worse, because by no means, am I a better driver. I just know all this because I happened to do a science project on comparison of different drivetrains. Anyways, continuing, your way is more riskier, but it COULD yield a higher exit speed than bengee's. Bengee's way is safer, but the exit speed might be slower. The reason? For you, you make all the turning happen before the apex-out, so you can just gas it when you see a straight line out of the corner. For bengee, he*or she!* has a bit of turning to do before he can gas it. While his/her corner IN speed is quicker than your's, your exit speed might be quicker than his/her's.

If you don't understand what I just said, I don't blame you, because looking back, even I don't understand most of what I just said.

edit: dammit trueno beat me to it. Read his post, it's more readable.. lol
 
well i dunno if you can really simplify the car physics as much as you did trueno... lol... but it explains basically what happens... the reason that what you said doesnt really work is that the friction coefficients will change as the load on each wheel changes in the corner... which is determined by suspension analysis... which is just too goddam complicated to explain in words... basically i am talking aobut weight transfer... which means that one side could be at a much lower traction level... but still be ats its max... this is what i meant before... in my earlier post... so basically i am agreeing with you trueno but in a different way of arriving at the same point... i have done a lot of thinking and work on perfect chassis, suspension, and steering set ups... steering is definitely hte easiest... then chassis setup with easy suspension of springs and struts... and the suspension... which i dont think i have enough information to design a good one yet... need to learn more about deformations of things other than bars...

anyways halface... you are right... that at times perg's driving will give a faster exit speed than mine... but lol in that case i will prolly be driving just like him... those are low speed corners where it is important to gain traction as soon as possible... but where he and i differ is that i dont really ever slow down... and i dont really ever skid when i approach the apex...

anyways i am sure perg is fast... lets all run some times lol...

ctr2... jk jk jk...

lines are more important anyways... you can have a good style but if you dont do it at the right time you arent gonna be fast...

this is a fun convo

BTW you never ever want your front wheels to slide first... that is bad and results in understeer... bad bad bad...

GETTING SIDEWAYS AND STAYING THAT WAY IS AMAZING... I ADMIRE ALL WHO CAN DO THAT... SOMETHING THAT I CANNOT...

oops caps lock...

i exhibition pretty well.. but sideways is something that my brain doesnt work with very well ... lol... large slip angles is a different story... just not 90 degrees... someone had a great vid with the scoobie lm sideways oooooooiiiiiiieeeee

you know where your logic might work trueno... lets talk abou the front wheels...if one wheel is aproaching its maximum grip and the other wheel is not... the front of the car will not slide until the other wheel aproaches its maximum grip and surpasses it... and if the wheel that has already done so is free to roll it will not smoke as long as the slip angle is not too great... the same idea applies to the rear wheels too... this is how maximum traction on all four wheels can be approached... cept the rear wheels have power so there limit will usually be approached before the front wheels esp when trail braking into turns... and these rear wheels can be controlled more easily than the front ones ( baring steering inputs) becuase power is given to them... the same idea applies to 4wd... except that torque is also given to the front wheels... usually less than the rear tho... and for ff four wheel drift can also be obtained with left foot braking... and enough speed into the turn... scary tho... i wouldnt wanna race ff...

i think this thread wins the gold for longest posts :D :O :eek:
 
Originally posted by bengee
well i dunno if you can really simplify the car physics as much as you did trueno... lol... but it explains basically what happens... the reason that what you said doesnt really work is that the friction coefficients will change as the load on each wheel changes in the corner... which is determined by suspension analysis... which is just too goddam complicated to explain in words...
Click to expand...

Well the coefficient of friction should not change just the amount of friction since the load does change. But that's the beauty of this theory, you don't have to think about all that crap. The out side tires will obviously have more weight on them and provide more friction but they can't slide unless the inside tires slide and vice versa.
 
oh yeah sorry that is what i meant lol... the amount of friction force due to normal force lol

but the flaw in both of our thinking in the last too posts is that once the tire has exceeded the traction limit... even if the front or back end cannot slide... the force delivered to the body of the car is now much less because kinetic friction is now in use...

but wait

we are not wrong... the tire is not sliding or skiding its held at the max value for static friction until the other slide slips... yes i beleive this is the way in which all tires can reach maximum grip... it is simply a matter of applying torque to the rear wheel so they reach a maximum value of traction as the front does... and then keeping it there...

GOOD ONE TRUENO
 
You're right bengee, the two front tires OR the two rear tires cannot be considered a single entity because as one tire approaches its limits, sure it won't necessarily start sliding, but it loses traction and will slide the moment that the other tire loses traction. Loss of traction is not a weakest-link-in-the-chain scenario, but sliding sideways is.

halfracedrift: Good explanation, I think you pretty much summed it up. Oh, and "risky" is an understatement, you'd have to be nuts to attempt it regularly =) I'm not even close to that level yet and could only hope to ever be that good. Hell, pulling off bengee's style of 4-wheel drifting on a regular basis is hard enough for a lifetime of frustration for most of us anyway haha

Also guys just so you know the racing I have in my videos is nowhere near what I describe, I'm still just learning. In the 4-wheel drift I described I didn't mean to sound like you are getting sideways way before the corner starts like I do in my videos. Straight-line braking without going sideways is very important in race drifting no matter what style you use, as the car can slow down much faster due to the two types of friction that bengee described.
 
yup... but the question is... will kinetic friction be used by the tire that has already come to its limit while the other tire still has not... i mean the tire is not sliding right or moving... so y would kinetic friction be used... if it was sliding with respect to the other wheel however... that would be a different story...
 
Hmm.. that's a good question... I don't think it converts to kinetic, because otherwise the tire would unload and you would probably start sliding anyway. But I don't think you can suck any extra traction out of it because of that, but it will probably still use its maximum available traction.
 
Or we could stop trying to talk like we're all physics majors( which some of us might be) and say "The car slides guud"...Just a though.
 
i am a mechanical engineer... physics is what i will do for the rest of my life in one form or another... and its gonna be the bomb
 
I'm a programmer, but I am a physics enthusiast. Especially theoretical physics, but it's important to have a good underlying knowledge of all kinds of physics because it's one of those things that actually does help you in everyday life.
 
Originally posted by bengee
yup... but the question is... will kinetic friction be used by the tire that has already come to its limit while the other tire still has not... i mean the tire is not sliding right or moving... so y would kinetic friction be used... if it was sliding with respect to the other wheel however... that would be a different story...
Click to expand...

I think it will naturally happen that both wheels will have to reach their friction limit at the same time, it's just cannot happen any other way.

Let's just assume that it can, and let's say our inside tire reaches it friction limit first, now any additional friction needed will only be loaded on to the outside wheel until it begins to slide and of course this will now cause the inside tire to slide as well, since it cannot provide any more friction. Which fits perfectly to what I am proposing.

Or even better, sometimes with FF cars the rear inside tire lifts off the ground providing ZERO friction. It will not slide(or move) laterally relative to the ground unless the out side tire slides.


edit: Just to get on topic I'm studying in Mech engineering :).
 
I used to program, I was thinking of going into that field actually, cause I was/am still pretty good at it. Actually, all the way through highschool I took a Software engineering class, pretty convienient. It was just the last year, where we really got into it, maybe it was the teacher, but it just turned me away from a computer oriented job, I know it's sad, but heck.
 
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