Drivers From a Certain Country...

[Nando deBem]

Except I never said that.
If the prejudice is rational, why would I need to do something about it?

Yes, it's just my opinion. Again, not sure why I have to keep repeating myself.

As I already said, sometimes prejudice can be rational.
And my prejudice is based on my repeated experiences.You're entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to mine.

^

Because, if you know i is prejudice, you know you're going to be excluding a lot of people from healthy social interactions unfairly, right? You're going to offend them, because they identify themselves with those cultures, races or whatever you're prejudicial against.

Edit: Rational doesn't mean right or wrong, and you're calling rational something that explains why you think like this, which is a "justification" of sorts, but it doesn't give you extra rights or anything. People put a lot of effort and thinking even for "dumb" things. Take nazis, kkk or other hate groups. Still, they're wrong and whatever experiences they had don't matter.

 

[_ApexPredator]

If the prejudice is rational

No such thing. That's what we're getting at.

You may as well say "Drivers from a certain gender... you guys know what I mean" that's essentially what you're doing, and just backing it up with "it's my observations/opinion"

 

[Crazy Taylor]

I think californian wildfire now comes to mind and you have a water pistol.

 

[war_ops_84]

^

Because, if you know i is prejudice, you know you're going to be excluding a lot of people from healthy social interactions unfairly, right? You're going to offend them, because they identify themselves with those cultures, races or whatever you're prejudicial against.

Humans belong to distinct cultures. Cultures tend to produce common patterns of behavior and thought among its members. If you came to America, you'd speak to people in English despite the fact that not all Americans speak English. That's a form of prejudice, yet nobody would fault you for it. This thread is a good example of how political correctness can overwhelm logical thought.

 

[D3V]

I wanted to make a comment about this topic, after reading through (almost) the hole Thread, i barely can't now (but do it anyway).
I give away places which i shouldn't,, only because i want to avoid dumb accidents. Better stay clean on track than repair my car afterwards :-P
If it's ""country-based"", i don't know (i guess not). But there are some "it's me or no-one"-Drivers. But these are NOT country based (in my opinion).
I just hope they never will go on a real track , with real cars, real G-Forces and REAL PAIN .

 

[_ApexPredator]

If you came to America, you'd speak to people in English despite the fact that not all Americans speak English. That's a form of prejudice

No it isn't.

This thread is a good example of how political correctness can overwhelm logical thought.

It's a good example of "political correctness" being misunderstood and a total lack of logical thought.

 

[Nando deBem]

Humans belong to distinct cultures. Cultures tend to produce common patterns of behavior and thought among its members. If you came to America, you'd speak to people in English despite the fact that not all Americans speak English. That's a form of prejudice, yet nobody would fault you for it. This thread is a good example of how political correctness can overwhelm logical thought.

It would be comical to watch you walking around in Brazil. I would laugh so loud! I doubt you'd be so eager to share your thoughts about us there though.

I'm done. This thread really triggered me.

 

[Calmlity]

What an interesting topic.
I saw it for times players with different countries but in the same region. Like fanatics in soccer. Rather call it dirty driving cultures, they were done by intention. For being kicked while just entering a lobby, there are some groups of players of countries who like racing only with players of the same country. Sometimes they are specifics, for example a lobby of LINE, Facebook, or etc group. Or some kids (maybe it is really kids) or newbies. The best thing is avoid called fight (hitting each other's car). Some, maybe many, players not taking GTS so serious, they just make it for fun like arcade racing games.

 

[war_ops_84]

No such thing. That's what we're getting at.

Fine, then I disagree that my opinion is prejudiced.

You may as well say "Drivers from a certain gender... you guys know what I mean" that's essentially what you're doing, and just backing it up with "it's my observations/opinion"

All I'm doing is giving my opinion based on my experiences.

No it isn't.

According to the definition of "prejudice" being used by you and others in this thread, it is.

You are assuming, with no proof, that someone will speak English simply because they are an American. You have prejudged the situation based on your generalized understanding of American culture. And there is nothing wrong with that.

It's a good example of "political correctness" being misunderstood and a total lack of logical thought.

The PC police are out in full force.

It would be comical to watch you walking around in Brazil. I would laugh so loud! I doubt you'd be so eager to share your thoughts about us there though.

I'm done. This thread really triggered me.

LOL

You just made a generalization about Brazilians!

 

[D3V]

DFTT

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Let's stop beating around the bush, I'm guessing for this particular thread Spain is the country, but from this side of the ocean people would tend to agree Brazil.

 

[Woodybobs]

If you cannot see the obvious difference between accusing someone of being racist and accusing someone of playing a video game the wrong way, then there is nothing I can say that will make you understand.

I don't think you understand irony. In this case it's unintentional irony on your part for the reason I've already explained.

Someone else mentioned racism. It would have been more apt to say prejudice. An indicator that your opinion exhibits prejudice can be found in the number of different responses to this statement,

I don't even have to name the country specifically - most people will know which one I'm referring to

It seems many people have differing opinion of who the dirtiest racers are, "on average". The reason opinion varies on this is largely due to confirmation bias. This is also a major reason why people think there is evidence to support their prejudices in other areas of life. The only way to negate bias is to collect and document evidence. Without concrete evidence one may as well flip a coin to form their opinions.

 

[war_ops_84]

I don't think you understand irony. In this case it's unintentional irony on your part for the reason I've already explained.

Someone else mentioned racism. It would have been more apt to say prejudice. An indicator that your opinion exhibits prejudice can be found in the number of different responses to this statement,

I understand irony very well. It would only be ironic if there were an equivalence between the two accusations in questions. But there isn't. Accusing someone of racism is WAY worse than accusing someone of being bad at a video game. If one makes the latter accusation without proof to back it up, no big deal. But if someone gets labeled a racist without proof, that is a very big deal indeed. The fact that I need to explain this is mystifying.

It seems many people have differing opinion of who the dirtiest racers are, "on average". The reason opinion varies on this is largely due to confirmation bias. This is also a major reason why people think there is evidence to support their prejudices in other areas of life. The only way to negate bias is to collect and document evidence. Without concrete evidence one may as well flip a coin to form their opinions.

You'll be happy to know that I have no plans of submitting this thread to a scientific journal.

Anyway, I forgot to consider the fact that not everyone drives on the same servers. What I meant to say was that people in the western hemisphere would know what country I was referring to and the responses to this thread seem to confirm my suspicions.

 

[Famine]

It seems many people have differing opinion of who the dirtiest racers are, "on average". The reason opinion varies on this is largely due to confirmation bias.

Indeed. This is confirmation bias:

I'm not being "that guy" because my views are based on repeated experiences instead of made up stories.

As one of GTP's admins, I see a lot of posts - and lots which are no longer visible to others. There are so many posts in the GT Sport forum from US drivers complaining about other US drivers. They put up videos to shame them and, usually, end up shaming themselves or at least coming out of any incident with half of the blame for it (or more).

It would be easy to conclude that the "certain country" in your comments is the USA, on the basis of these "repeated experiences". After that my post was just the usual internet-poop stereotypical nonsense about the USA, because it must be some cultural thing that makes them like this, right?

But that would be confirmation bias - the act of seeing patterns only when they reinforce an already-held view and dismissing them when they don't as anomalies or exceptions.

You're being that guy. You're seeing patterns you want to see and then suggesting that a cultural difference is the reason for that pattern. Don't be that guy.

 

[FPV MIC]

I'm so glad I race in the only region that isn't mentioned in this thread. The only time I've ever had a large SR drop (from 99 to 87) it was my own fault .

 

[war_ops_84]

Indeed. This is confirmation bias:

As one of GTP's admins, I see a lot of posts - and lots which are no longer visible to others. There are so many posts in the GT Sport forum from US drivers complaining about other US drivers. They put up videos to shame them and, usually, end up shaming themselves or at least coming out of any incident with half of the blame for it (or more).

It would be easy to conclude that the "certain country" in your comments is the USA, on the basis of these "repeated experiences". After that my post was just the usual internet-poop stereotypical nonsense about the USA, because it must be some cultural thing that makes them like this, right?

But that would be confirmation bias - the act of seeing patterns only when they reinforce an already-held view and dismissing them when they don't as anomalies or exceptions.

You're being that guy. Don't be that guy.

Maybe they're right. Maybe US drivers are the dirtiest. And maybe it's due to American culture. Can we agree that there is such a thing as American culture? And that it might produce certain behavioral tendencies in Americans?

 

[_ApexPredator]

Can we agree that there is such a thing as American culture? And that it might produce certain behavioral tendencies in Americans?

Yes.
Can we say that one nation is typically driving dirtier than any other without prejudice?
No.

 

[StirlingMoose]

Does anyone think their own country has the dirtiest drivers?

 

[war_ops_84]

Yes.

So why isn't it "prejudiced" to say that Americans tend to speak English or that Americans tend to value gun rights more than other countries?

Can we say that one nation is typically driving dirtier than any other without prejudice?
No.

Why not?

Does anyone think their own country has the dirtiest drivers?

I don't know. But I'm definitely open to the possibility. I do not shy away from criticizing America.

 

[Woodybobs]

@war_ops_84 Prejudice against races, nationalities, gender, sexuality or anything else is the same. You are displaying prejudice against a particular nation. As I said, you didn't see the contradiction between your posts. That makes it ironic. The only mystifying thing here is that you still don't see it.
The fact that people mentioned countries in a different region is irrelevant. It still shows that prejudice is a factor in forming their opinions. As it is in your case.

You'll be happy to know that I have no plans of submitting this thread to a scientific journal.

You should still try to form your opinions based on evidence.

 

[Shottah072]

Norms and values are mostly cultural based. So it might be true that people from different cultures overall wil have different driving norms and values as well. I dont think its racist to say that. I just think its pointless to say that without any proof or data. As it is mostly based on own experiences, it might be true to you, but others may have different experiences. If there were some data about this subject it could be a interesting discussion. But without that data this discussion is bound to derail i am afraid.

 

[Woodybobs]

So why isn't it "prejudiced" to say that Americans tend to speak English or that Americans tend to value gun rights more than other countries?

Because there is evidence to support both of those statements.

 

[war_ops_84]

@war_ops_84 Prejudice against races, nationalities, gender, sexuality or anything else is the same.

No it isn't. One has no choice over their race, gender, sexuality, etc. Nationality, on the other hand, is something you identify with by choice. Moreover, if you accept the premise that a nationality is a valid concept, then you must also accept that certain generalizations can be made with regards to nationality. If such generalizations cannot be made, then nationality as a concept is meaningless. The entire point of making distinctions between "Americans" and "French" and "Chinese" is to emphasize the common traits they share within their respective groups.

You are displaying prejudice against a particular nation.

Perhaps. Or perhaps I'm correct.

As I said, you didn't see the contradiction between your posts. That makes it ironic. The only mystifying thing here is that you still don't see it.

That's because there is no contradiction. Accusing someone of being bad at a video game is not inflammatory. Accusing someone of being racist is highly inflammatory. It's a difference of night and day. To pretend otherwise is absurd.

The fact that people mentioned countries in a different region is irrelevant. It still shows that prejudice is a factor in forming their opinions. As it is in your case.

You should still try to form your opinions based on evidence.

Observations are evidence.

 

[war_ops_84]

Because there is evidence to support both of those statements.

You mean to say there is MORE evidence. I have evidence to support my original hypothesis, i.e., my own observations. You simply believe that my evidence is insufficient, which is fine.

Norms and values are mostly cultural based. So it might be true that people from different cultures overall wil have different driving norms and values as well. I dont think its racist to say that. I just think its pointless to say that without any proof or data. As it is mostly based on own experiences, it might be true to you, but others may have different experiences. If there were some data about this subject it could be a interesting discussion. But without that data this discussion is bound to derail i am afraid.

Well, if there has to be a point to all of this, then the concept of online video gaming is in trouble... but I agree with everything else you said.

 

[_ApexPredator]

So why isn't it "prejudiced" to say that Americans tend to speak English or that Americans tend to value gun rights more than other countries?

Because it isn't.

prejudiced
ˈprɛdʒədɪst/
adjective

1. having or showing a dislike or distrust that is derived from prejudice.

[Can we say that one nation is typically driving dirtier than any other without prejudice?]
No.

Why not?

Because you have no data to inform your statement. It's just your sense of it, and as explained, perhaps you're just on the look out for or more sensitive to dirty Spaniards, as it confirms the opinion you already have of their driving.

If you have some data that suggests members of a particular country are involved in more incidents, then you may begin to explore reasons for this - is it cultural, etc.
But without the data, it's just a useless discussion.

Maybe you're right.
Personally though I can't say I've noticed one nation being worse than any other - plenty of British hotheads out there as well.

 

[Woodybobs]

Nationality, on the other hand, is something you identify with by choice.

Nations are a human construct, but prejudice against people because of their nationality is real. I grew up in Ireland in the 80's and regularly visited my grandparents in N.I. The disdain shown to us at border crossings was very real, all because of the reg plate on our car. A common greeting was, "Where do you think you're going, Paddy". This was usually addressed to my Dad, who is Scottish.

Accusing someone of being bad at a video game is not inflammatory.

If I were to say Asian people are the dirtiest racers on GT it wouldn't be racist because it's only a video game?

Observations are evidence.

Only if you are aware that biases skew observations, and make sure they don't. Biases work very subtly. They are a major reason why collecting and documenting evidence properly is so important.

 

[dudejustsmokeit]

Plain and Simple.
2/3rds of the drivers from EVERY country cannot race properly Very simple math
Percentage of population Seems to make sense

 

[Sofia Speed]

You’re a CRY BABY RACIST FOUL that like to blame others for you’re own mistakes!!


Play another game, this one was not made for you...

I'm not going to ignore my repeated experiences just so I can be politically correct.



This is an internet forum, not a scientific journal. I'm just giving my opinion.



The notion was not "preconceived" at all. It was formed after months of repeated experiences. And I never said or implied that an "entire country" races in a more negative way. I said ON AVERAGE there are more dirty drivers from that country.



My only point was that sometimes prejudice can be rational because you seemed to imply that prejudice is categorically bad.



If you visited Saudi Arabia, would you go around telling strangers how much you object to that country's treatment of women? Or would you just assume that such opinions wouldn't be welcomed by most people?



You said my comment was ironic. It's only ironic if you think accusations of racism are somehow equivalent to accusations of driving dirty in a video game.

Put simply, accusing someone of racism is far more "inflammatory" than accusing someone of not playing a video game properly. How is that not obvious to you?



Race and color are basically the same thing. But either way, you had to change my position on a fundamental level in order to make it look bad. If you addressed my actual position, then it doesn't look so bad. I mean, are you denying that distinct cultures exist? Or that they tend to produce common patterns of behavior and thought? If I said Americans tend to value gun rights more than other cultures, would that be a problem? If I said Canadians tend to put the word "eh" at the end of sentences, would you be offended? As long as I acknowledge that such statements do not apply to ALL Americans/Canadians, then what's the problem my dude?

 

[sparkytooth]

So this is the day the opinions and current events subforum leaks into Gran Turismo.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Perhaps the game should just hide the flags. Names too for that matter. Hide the cars as well and no more accidents!

I just got screwed by a racist (in his psn name), or rather by his 1 bar connection. Not sure why someone would name themselves racist, perhaps he thought it meant good at racing.

I still think it's a good idea to add some fun more encouraging statistics to the banner. Like nation with the fastest qualifying times, best finishing position, nation with the least accidents. Instead of always ORMA_Snow won the test championship