European Union Reportedly Opens Cartel Investigation Into German Car Industry

This is the discussion thread for a recent post on GTPlanet:

This article was published by Andrew Evans (@Famine) on July 21st, 2017 in the Automotive News category.

 

Well...that's gonna be quite damming if it's true. Not sure what lasting effects it would cause though.

 

They all pay a fine and that's the end of it.

 

The French taking over the remainder of the German car industry?

 

I have a question, if the cars could have lower emissions during tests, why did the engineers switch off the low-emission mode after said tests were over? What are the downsides?

I personally don't see the point of manufacturers lying about emissions if they've already spent their money in lowering them.

 

The effect so far is the pull out of Motorsport. Volkswagen no longer in WRC and Audi no longer in Le Mann. It's costing them a fortune and, imo serves them right, as surely it was obvious that they would get caught out with this.

Although, Ive got nothing against them I'm just glad that someone else is getting a chance to win whilst they are suffering for their sins.

 

Probably because lower emission mode means lower power ?

 

Fairly simple really .
Everyone always says that their German diesel is so much more responsive and powerful than the competition .
Why ? Because they're right !
Unfortunately the easiest and cheapest way to make an engine produce more power
(which is what we've all been asking for) is to make it burn more fuel , which in turn produces more pollutants.
The other way is to make the engines more efficient but that's expensive and could have effects on the longevity of the engine , oh and it's expensive .

 

What the others said. But also the VW cars seemed to be able to meet the emission standards without using the urea additive that the competition had to use. This meant the cars didn't have to have the separate urea tank and more convenience for the user. However it was all BS....

 

I really hope they uncover the German version of Pablo Escobar in all of this...something like Don Hans or Don Gunter.

 

These urea based (pig piss to you and me) systems are no different than all the other ineffective exhaust based offerings, cat converters, egr, dpf, the list goes on. All they do is fudge the results after the engine has already produced the pollutants.

 

You say fudge.. But then if all the systems contain the pollutants then, all Ok ?

 

No. Not all ok. Because they are using these adjusted results to reduce the emissions rating and therefore the amount of your hard earned cash it would take to tax your car

 

That had nothing to do with the car manufacturers it was a just a crafty game that our government created and then ultimately lost because they didn't realise just how clever the car manufacturers could be.

 

Trust me I'm the last one to collude with government policy but I think that these rules were brought in with the best intentions .
If Nike fitted Yusain Bolts shoes with warp drive would his records still stand ? There's nothing to say that warp drive is banned in international athletics !
It's the principal that's important. Rules were set and certain manufacturers came up with ways to circumvent these rules. That doesn't make it right .

 

Of course, I'm not trying to justify VAG groups cheating method, I feel that they have got there just desserts as they have made lots of cash and market share over their rivals who haven't been cheating.

But if their customers have paid less to tax their cars on the back of it then great, as I'm sure you will agree the tax system, (in the UK), around CO2 emissions was just a smoke screen for the gov to earn more money. I'm glad the fools failed to realise how clever and quick the car manufacturers were to adapt, (as in the ones who didn't cheat).

 

If you think we pay a lot for car tax , let's ask some of our European members how much it costs to tax their cars ? I think you may be surprised .

 

Your right I have no idea of other countries tax policies.

 

Basically. Governments , Car manufacturers .
They're all out to screw us out of what's left over .

 

It's not hard to see the purpose of such a cartel, speculatively. Is there doubt among any of the car buying public that German cars are routinely the best engineered? Indeed that Germans are the best engineers? How better to establish that fact than for German cars to make the most power, yet pollute the least?

Despite token competition between the brands, the real goal was the implanted consumer perception of German quality and engineering above all others; after all the VW buyer of today is an Audi buyer in 5 years and a Porsche buyer in 20. Its best not to muddy the waters with a Toyota somewhere in between...

What comes next is a 25% tariff on German cars to the United States, probably.

 

Not strictly true but probably partly .
Admittedly I haven't a clue as to the long term effects of Adblue but all the others seem to cause as many problems as they fix. I know from experience that many of these systems are detrimental to the overall efficiency of an engine often resulting in increased fuel consumption , loss of power and reduced service life .
They are all ways around a problem rather actually fixing the cause , but that would be expensive so probably won't happen anytime soon.
Essentially using fossil fuels produces pollutants , so until they are replaced with whatever technology comes next we're stuck with it .

 

I'm not saying that reducing emissions of any kind is a bad idea ,in fact it's a great
idea and I dare say that the vast majority of engineers and boffins are doing all they can within their fields . Just that these bolt on parts are a quick , easy and cheaper way of doing it and , in some cases , actually make things worse .

One of the problems is the inherent ineffiency of the IC engine , Toyota claim that their latest generation of engine is a massive 38% efficient , under testbed conditions , so no doubt less than 20% in the real world .
So much of its power is lost to friction , heat and making noise that precious little is left to actually propell the vehicle .
If an engine can be made more efficient and therefore produce a given amount of usable energy for a smaller amount of fuel burnt then less pollutants would be emitted .

These are the big questions for someone way above my pay grade .
But to get back on topic , VAG , LIED TO MAKE MONEY , and they got caught .

 

VAG is just one cog in the diesel story. Yes, it is a giant cog.

I find it "odd" that they're being lumped in with Mercedes and BMW in the EU investigation referenced in the original post. After all, before the (US-market) Passat TDI came out, VAG rejected the diesel exhaust fluid "solution" that Mercedes/BMW adopted.

As for the Euro 6/US EPA/CARB NOx emissions standards, I'm of the opinion that they are unobtainable by diesels without regressing performance to late-1970s US-market car performance. Like the manufacturers, I highly doubt that cars that go 0-60 mph in over 15 seconds and can't hit 70 mph (like the late '70s-early '80s VW diesels) can sell, especially when the competition, be it gas, hybrid, or full-electric, halves (or better) the 0-60 time and for the most part can hit triple-digit speeds. For reference, the gap in 0-60 times between gas and diesel cars back in the day wasn't nearly as large (most cars took over 10 seconds to hit 60 back in the late '70s-mid '80s), and the low top speed wasn't really an issue with the national 55-mph speed limit.

Indeed, even after both parts of the 2015 VW 2.0L TDI (the "cleanest" of the 2.0L TDIs) US fix and the US fix for earlier Passat automatic TDIs are implemented, those cars require (and were granted) a waiver from the EPA/CARB standards. It is possible that the newer 3.0L TDIs will meet EPA and/or CARB standards when a fix is approved (it is also possible that even with a fix, they will need a waiver), but the remainder of the TDIs, both 2.0L and 3.0L, will need waivers if fixes are approved. At this point, those fixes haven't been approved.

Also, the fact that Mercedes and FiatChrysler automotive/light-duty truck diesels are alleged to have similar defeat devices in US-market vehicles further lends credence to the notion that the current NOx emissions standards are effectively unobtainable.

 

This has to be the worst thing that's ever happened in Germany.

It's nice to hear that BMW, Mercedes, and VW maybe have been working together in the spirit of partnership. Too bad that partnership was designed to try to bypass regulations aimed at preventing them from harming people.

 

I can think of a few things around 70 years ago !

 

Do we have an electric-specific thread? UK bans new diesel and petrol vehicles from 2040. BBC.

Different country fortunately

 

Richard Hammond hardest hit (I would say Jezza or perhaps May, but they're not likely to still be driving in 2040).

Good luck getting from London to Glasgow by non-public transit in less than 12 hours.