FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

Discussion in 'Forza Motorsport 4' started by Scaff, Jun 21, 2011.

  1. HBK

    HBK

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    Actually, I find GT5 has a lot more contrast than FM4. And it's done very differently.

    And I'm pretty sure it has something to do with that auto gamma correction chip (which also does the auto rescaling if I remember right) used in the 360 video output line.
     
  2. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    6. Only a little better? GT uses a simple grip multiplier than causes wildly differing cars to have the same lat-g on the same tyres (such as a Mini Copper and a 'vette. Tyre deformation, grip transition and tyre pressure are all factors that FM4 covers far better and makes a real impact on how grip is communicated to you.

    7. How exactly is it flawed? In my experience its GT5's tuning model that has been problematic and flawed, with FM4 giving both a wider range of settings for many areas and including areas such as suspension hitting bump stops.

    8. This is utter nonsense and has been refuted more times than I care to remember.

    9. I disagree, while GT5 has a number of cars I would like to see in Forza, the reverse is even more true. Its also a subjective call and as such its only ever going to be 'right' for each person.

    10. GT5 has far better spacial placement of sound and its use of dopler is excellent, but many of the cars do not sound even close to the real thing.

    11. Neither do it well enough in my opinion.

    12. Citation required please. The upgrade options in FM4 are not unrealistic in general (certainly not 'many' of them) and they also have an impact on the weight of the car, a rather important fundamental that GT fails to include.
     
  3. Lock2Lock

    Lock2Lock Premium

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    GT5's tuning period is flawed. Just by moving the weight ballast position (WITH NO WEIGHT ADDED), will change the oversteer/understeer of the car.
     
  4. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot Premium

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    I'm almost positive that he says its flawed in a way that has nothing to do with what's available for tuning. Rather than in the way that he claims that he can raise the ride height all the way up, in the front or rear, and max out settings and it will produce better lap times. I've never heard of this and have called him on it for proof a couple of times but he just disappears from the threads.

    As for muscle cars not being competitive, you must be doing something totally wrong because the ones that I would individually tune where very competitive in B and A. Some with stock 4 speed trans and some with the race transmission. The PI jump for the race trans is high, but I find it fine. You are adding two extra gears, wouldn't that effect your acceleration a lot?
     
  5. Master Weasel

    Master Weasel Premium

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    Yeah, because you can totally tell what the physics will be like from a trailer.

    Sales =/= good game.

    They never took the arcade road. If you think Forza is going to be arcade because of Horizon, then you have no idea what you're talking about.

    So GT is a sim because I said so. Forza is arcade because I said so. Nice argument. And I can't take your last sentence seriously at all.
     
  6. Speedster911

    Speedster911

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    Hahaha, these posts make for a really interesting read when there's little else to do!

    I find it appalling how folks would defent GT5 and call it a pure simulator, and FM4 being arcade or NFS being better than Forza (that last part almost made me spit my sandwich out).

    Ask anybody who's driven really fast cars IRL, and pushed them to the edge. There is not one person who will tag GT as the real driving sim. It is marketed to be "the real driving simulator". It attempts to be one, and that's all it is unfortunately. All the marketing and loyal fanbase alone doesn't make it true to life by any means. Luckily, for true motorheads, there is always something better lying in wait, and that's FM4.

    Forza, by contrast, has quite consistently improved upon every single iteration, with physics data and audio samples/effects, that would make any seasoned programmer or sim developer, put down his coffee mug and take notice.

    I do not wish to invite any debate. But simply building upon the points and facts stated by Scaff, ImaRobot and MuoNiuLa. Neither am I an anti-GT pro-Forza type of gamer. Both games can fall short in certain areas. However Forza's shortcomings are far less than GT's. And as a consumer, I tend to enjoy quality games. GT had a good run, but Forza came along. It is that much better. And the embarrassing part is, T10 learned from GT's mistakes. But GT failed to learn from it's mistakes.

    Oh well, If GT6 ressurects the franchise the way it ought to be, I wouldn't mind picking up a PS3. At the end of the day, I'm simply a consumer, not a game critic, and a pure motorsport lover at heart.
     
  7. RPM Bibblefish

    RPM Bibblefish

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    I can't for the life of me find anything to back up it up but i do remember it was a problem in FM3 but only on ovals and i'm pretty sure it was fixed for FM4.

    Can't honestly remember as i don't race ovals but it did have something to do with raising the ride height to the max on the front and slamming it on the back
     
  8. Northstar

    Northstar Premium

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    To be fair both games are fairly flawed in the tuning dept. and will be until you can adjust each wheel separately. This is one of the things that makes oval racing in both games daft as it requires an entirely different setup from a road course.
     
  9. Murcie_LP640

    Murcie_LP640

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    Several of the quickest cars I have in the ABC'S hopper are classic or modern muscle cars. My A-Class Shelby Cobra is an incredibly competent all-rounder with bucketloads of grip and neck-snapping acceleration (I believe on the stats it has a 9.0 for acceleration and it cracks 100mph in under 8.5 seconds). Stock 4-speed trans means it's outgunned on Road America or Indianapolis with a top speed of only about 160mph but for tracks like the Hockenheimring, Mugello Short and Suzuka West it's a very well-sorted tune.

    Then for the more top-speed focussed circuits in B-Class I have a Dodge Challenger SRT8 which, while not objectively a very good handler it's actually incredibly easy to drive with minimal power-oversteer on exit and with a slight tendency to understeer on the limit. Again though, deadly fast on the straights. My current-gen Camaro SS is also a pretty good B-Class vehicle as well as my Mustang Cobra R. Getting a tune right for C-Class in a muscle car though takes some skill; I believe the muscle car of choice that I was using as an all-rounder for a while was the 4th Gen Camaro SS.

    Muscle cars are actually very easy to make competitive. It's all about tuning to eliminate weaknesses while accentuating strengths.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2013
  10. Speedster911

    Speedster911

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    ^^ BIG thumbs up!
     
  11. Roflwaffle

    Roflwaffle

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    Here's my opinion. Both are great games but in different ways. so I've compiled a list of in game features and which game does it the best(opinion).

    Car selection-Forza
    Graphics-GT
    Customization-Forza
    Online lobbies-GT
    Online community/Clubs-Forza
    Track selection-GT
    DLC-Forza
    AI awareness-GT
    AI aggression-Forza
    Tyre wear/fuel depletion-GT
    Livery editor-Forza
    Time/weather-GT
    Career/events-Forza
     
  12. Terronium-12

    Terronium-12 Moderator

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    I agree with everything other than what's been boldfaced. As far as "awareness" is concerned they both have their shining examples but they're otherwise utterly incompetent. Both of them.

    As for tire wear and fuel depletion, in terms of continuity between games GT definitely gets the point, as for it being an actual feature worth getting something out of I'd hand it to Forza (3, to be specific). When you run out of fuel you don't just coast at 50 on emergency fumes, you're done. Tire wear in FM is also far more realistic in Forza than any GT game to date.
     
  13. Roflwaffle

    Roflwaffle

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    I'v only played Forza 4 so i'm not sure about Forza 3.
     
  14. Macrinus

    Macrinus

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    Forza 4 Is a much better game. The graphics are practically equal so I did not factor this into why I will never buy garbage GT5.

    What GT5 does better

    Course maker (not in Forza 4)
    Some tracks look better
    Day/Night (not in Forza 4)
    Rally Racing (not in Forza 4)

    What Forza 4 does better

    More car variety (60% of GT5 is japanese cars)
    Has Porsche
    Amazing Sound (GT5 has horrible sound)
    Better Gameplay (in my opinion)
    Better damage modelling
    Cars can actually flip over and crash (Smashing cars in GT5 is like hitting a brick wall, the car doesn't ract at all)

    Better Suspension physics and over all better physics
    Custom Paint Designs (Not in GT5)
    All Cars have interiors and look nice, about 670 cars Total. (GT5 may have about 1040 but 800 of them look like garbage since they are standard models and have no finished interiors, also 60% being japanese takes away from variety, makes having more cars not even significant when the price of having more cars means 800 look bad/no interiors)

    Better tuning options
    Better Online multiplayer (More game modes)


    Even though GT5 has more features that Forza 4 does not have, it is not worth it in the end since the faults of GT5 over shadow this.
     
  15. Roflwaffle

    Roflwaffle

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    you used 1 point about the car variety in GT5 and turned it into 10 to make GT5 look 10 times worse...
     
  16. JMoney

    JMoney

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    As a car lover, I usually buy about every new racing game that comes out. I have both an XBOX360 and a PS3, and own both Forza 4 and GT5.

    The first thing to look at is the cars. Gran Turismo has several hundred more cars than Forza, but many of GT's cars are completely useless replicas that nobody would want. But many of them are not. It all comes down to DLC, as Forza has far more cars to download. With DLC, Forza 4 has better cars than GT5. Without, GT5 is the winner.

    Next is tracks. Polyphony has been building on their list of original circuits, while Forza's are much newer. I'm not a fan of Forza's original tracks, especially since there is no place to find the top speed of a car, while there is in GT5 with the purchase of Special Stage Route X. GT5 also has better real-world locations; Daytona and Fuji are more significant than Infineon and Road Atlanta. GT5 also has four downloadable locations, but none in Forza. Plus, GT5 has city courses, which Forza does not. Winner: GT5

    Gameplay: Almost everyone agrees that GT5 has more realistic handling for the cars. You can also cut across grass in GT5 unless you are playing with penalties, in which case your car will be kept from accelerating for a number of seconds. In Forza, however, your car is forced down to 20 mph. This occurance is extremely unrealistic and extremely frustrating. Winner: GT5.

    Graphics and Audio: Forza's light setup results in not being able to see anything in shadow. There are also no night races in Forza, but there are in GT. On the other hand, car noises seem to be more unique in Forza, and it is very noticable when I add turbo to a car. In GT5, many cars share the same engine noise. Forza wins audio, while GT wins graphics.

    Leveling system: GT5 has 40 A-Spec and 40 B-Spec levels to obtain. All cars have a minimum level that must be reached in order to buy them. Reward cars are given to the player for getting podiums in groups of races, and then again for each tier of race. These cars can be sold unless they are concept or race cars for large sums of money. In Forza 4, there are 50 normal levels. When a new level is reached, the player is given a choice of car from a certain class. These reward cars can be sold for a mere 100 credits, or slightly more. Once level 50 is reached, the player has much less motivation to complete singleplayer events, especially since the AI's drive so slow and are never a challenge. In GT5, the player is guarenteed reward cars for completing races, and AI's are sometimes competitive. Winner: Gran Turismo.

    Multiplayer: I say this is a tie. Forza's multiplayer is more structured, with ground rules that can't be changed. However, there are other game modes other than racing and drifting. Tag Infection and Drag are both very fun. GT5, on the other hand, has complete multiplayer freedom, but only for racing. It's hard to find lobbies that you want since there is no structure; players have to manually select their lobbies. Tie.

    Customization: GT5 is very limited in this area- GT4 had better tuning options than GT5. You can only paint a car a color if you have owned a car that had that color. You can only make the wheels match the body if you have had two cars of the same color. In Forza, there are more tuning options, and literally unlimited paint, decal, and vinyl setups, thanks to the marketplace. I've spent hours at a time re-creating classic race cars. Winner: Forza.

    Besides all of these factors, GT5 also has a course maker. Gran Turismo has Special Events, License Tests, and Speed Runs. While the menu setup is more practical in Forza, GT is more in-depth.

    Gran Turismo is the clear winner. Polyphony created the driving simulator genre, and it will always be on top of it.

    Now why can't I write like this in English???
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2013
  17. McLaren

    McLaren Premium

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    So, you just judged the physics of both games based completely on the fact one lets you cheat & the other doesn't?

    Do a burnout in both games & tell me which one represents what happens in real life. Tell me how GT's representation is not completely unrealistic.

    And yet you didn't comment to enter specific races, you had to be specific levels. Or that to reach those levels, you had to grind previous races.

    You've also basically given a negative to Forza because you can not farm 1 specific race for 1 car every time just to sell it for large amounts of money. You also failed to list that after Level 50, you are still given large amounts of money per level or that manufacturers also give you money & parts discounts by leveling up through them.

    These are not legitimate concerns regarding both games, they are preferences you clearly weren't fond of or not aware of.
     
  18. HAL20XX

    HAL20XX

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    All you've said here is that GT is more like GT than Forza.
     
  19. pervert

    pervert

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    I believe they are referring to the fact that the penalty for cutting in GT is that your tyres lose all grip for a while once back on track, similar to what happens in reality. This is versus the slow down penalty that Forza uses.
     
  20. King1982

    King1982 (Banned)

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    OS Roundtable: Recapping a Generation of Individual Sports Games

    http://www.operationsports.com/feat...ping-a-generation-of-individual-sports-games/

    Was Forza the best racing franchise of this prior generation?

    Andre Harrison: Yes. Forza 3, 4 and Horizon are magnificent racing games, and some of the best simulators ever made in gaming. It's overtaken the Gran Turismo franchise as the new bar.

    Robert Kollars: Yes. The Forza series did a great job of being a fun racing simulator - a rare combination during this generation.

    Zac Arthur: Yes. Forza did just about everything right to satisfy those looking for a great racing game. I almost said racing simulator, but Forza even quenched the thirst of arcade racers by putting out Forza Horizon. There were some good racing games in this prior generation, but Forza was easily the best racing franchise.

    Glenn Wigmore: Yes, based on quality and quantity. It easily took the throne from the stagnating Gran Turismo franchise, as it released several games while GT fiddled away on details that only appease the absolute gear-heads out there. But while Turn10 released lots of games, they were also incredibly well made, with amazing visuals, solid solo and online play, and robust creation features.

    Jayson Young: Yes. Forza Motorsport's online auction house, car customization and difficulty customization were all groundbreaking features when Forza Motorsport 2 released in 2007. Gran Turismo stayed several laps off pace the entire generation, and Sony isn't helping GT's comeback effort by skipping next generation systems with Gran Turismo 6 (PS3 only). I look for Forza Motorsport's lead to widen this winter when Forza Motorsport 5 debuts alongside Microsoft's Xbox One console.

    Matthew Coe: Yes. Awesome driving mechanics, great feel, deep customization, and the auction house. Forza 4 was the pinnacle of this generation's sim racers.

    Caley Roark: Yep! I'm not a big racing fan, but I had more fun with Forza 4 and Horizon than any race game in a long time.

    The best Individual based sports game of this past generation was:

    Harrison: Forza Motorsport 4. The most complete racing game, in my opinion, ever made. An experience every gamer should have, with something to appeal to everyone.

    Kollars: Forza 4 is my obvious choice. The game simply offered a complete experience. An experience that had something for almost everyone to enjoy.

    Arthur: I have to agree and say Forza 4. If you wanted a game that made you feel like you were actually controlling a supercar, then this game was your best bet.

    Wigmore: I'm going to have to go with WWE '13 based on the sheer fact that the Attitude Era content was so strong. If you think of all of the other games that occupy this space, that mode in that game was something truly fresh and original (even though it was based on old material), and it helped revitalize the brand.

    Young: Forza Motorsport 4. Its customization suite is the best of any sports game on the Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3. Forza Motorsport 4's replayability would be endless if Turn10 Studios didn't release a new game every two years.

    Coe: UFC Undisputed 3. This game had an incredible roster, improved fighting mechanics, immersive presentation and overlays, Pride FC content, and a deep satisfying career mode.

    Roark: Top Spin 4.
     
  21. JMoney

    JMoney

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    It's not about which will let you cheat, it's about how the car would drive in the real world- and obviously grass would not decelerate a car that quickly. The driver may not have been trying to cheat- what if he was spun into the grass by another driver? The 20 mph just makes your wreck worse.

    Doing a burnout isn't exactly an important feature of a racing game.

    I do realize that money is awarded after level 50, but it starts at 100,000 credits or so, which is less than the value of the cars you were being awarded for the past 20+ levels.

    I find Forza's singleplayer incredibly boring. The only value the game has to me is the parts of it that GT doesn't have, being the car customization, and Tag Infection.

     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
  22. HAL20XX

    HAL20XX

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    You can't change the tire pressure in GT. The tires use an unrealistic grip modifier in GT. Torque steer isn't present in GT. You can't take close up pictures of all cars in GT. You can't see the cockpit of all cars. You can't race any car you want without grinding in GT. You can't get through the navigation without confirming, reconfirming, and reconfirming your reconfirmation in GT.

    Oh, and since when can't you find the top speed of any car in Forza?
     
  23. rocketcaron

    rocketcaron

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    Uh yes you can. In a realistic way mind you. That old abandonned oval and La Sarthe Old Mulsanne will let you do that.

    Used cars? Who would buy an old GT-R with virtual, easily earned money when you can buy the same GT-R new with more of the same virtual, easily earned money. :sly:
     
  24. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Neither gets off track behaviour right at all.

    While Forza make cut the cars speed (and please don't imply it does it on every part of the 'off-track - as it certainly doesn't), GT5 has a rather well know exploit that actually causes cars to loose no speed at all when half on the grass and half off, one that has been repeatedly used by people to top the GTA leaderboards.


    So torque steer from a standing start has no place in racing title?

    Only if its one with no standing starts, ohh wait who does GT almost exclusively use rolling starts again (when they are far from the norm in reality.

    GT5's tyre and suspension model is so incredibly basic that is causes serious issues with low speed physics, to the degree that you get no torque steer from a standing start at all. As such its quite an important area for a racing title, one that even PD acknowledge (given that its been two of the three main areas of physics development for GT6).


    1. More cars =/= Better car list
    2. You can't build a track in GT either, it builds it for you based on a very limited range of variables
    3. Used cars: Those would be the last gen assets used to bulk out a car list and create a two tier quality level, with the majority of the total car list having limited features
    4. Top Speed: Yes you can
    5. Fictional cars is a good thing in a sim?
     
  25. Chippy569

    Chippy569

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    The sticky grass in forza is a game mechanic, not a physics representation. The unfortunate reality of games is that there is no physical danger to deter people from cutting the grass, and there is too much tendency to cheat. Sticky grass was picked as the best option to a complex problem: how do you prevent drivers gaining an advantage by going off-track. The problem with any sort of flag-based system is that all of the drivers have to respect and obey it. If someone is cutting, they also aren't going to care about a flag. A time-penalty wouldn't matter either, because no one really cares what their lap time is, they care about their position on track when they race their friends. Sticky grass delivers an instantaneous punishment and does not allow a cutter to gain position on track, so it's the fairest, if least-realistic, system.
     
  26. Imari

    Imari

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    I don't think even nearly almost everyone agrees on that. But if it's true, then you'll have no problem outlining the points at which GT is superior to Forza.

    I'm sorry, the levelling system in GT5 is an abomination. It's badly designed so that you're forced to grind at points. It puts double gates on cars, you have to have the money AND the level to be able to buy them. If I have the money, I want to be able to buy a Countach, dammit.

    Seasonals made it largely a non-issue in that they rewarded so much XP that you didn't really need to grind any more. But that just made the level system pointless, and it didn't help anyone for the first year while the seasonal system was still being patched in and updated very sporadically.


    You don't seem to understand a reward system designed to give you cars intended for actually driving, instead of it being a disguised way to give you cash. I'd say that the GT5 cars are designed to be driven by the player as well, and the fact that you sell them shows how well they're accomplishing that goal. Which is why FM4 gives you a choice of cars so that you have a higher chance of being able to get something you might like.


    And I don't understand how you can find Forza's AI uncompetitive but GT's challenging. If you enter a FM4 race with the correct grade of car (ie. don't turn the PI lock off) then at least half the time you get a competitive race unless you're an alien.

    GT5 races don't have PP grades, but if you figure out what the AI is using and choose something similar you will destroy them unless your thumbs are made of butter. The only exceptions I remember encountering are the F1 series and the Historic series, and that only because getting something to compete with the 2J is really, really hard.

    FM4 I sometimes get a competitive race. Not all the time, but it's not rare. I can't remember the last time I got a competitive race out of the GT5 AI. The only times it's even close is short races when they start 30+ seconds down the road. I wouldn't call it close just because we happen to cross the finish within a few seconds of each other when I've been going 8+ seconds a lap faster than them.


    I agree with the poster that said you're merely criticising FM for not being GT. You're not understanding the design choices. GT does a lot of things better than FM, but you've glossed over a lot of them to tout stuff that is just poorly designed in GT but is somehow OK because you're used to it.
     
  27. Zer0

    Zer0 (Banned)

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    Have you tested personally that in GT5 with no aids? or you mean in the GTA when SRF was enabled by default in some races?

    ...because I have never seen a record lap in GT5 using that "cheat".
     
  28. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Administrator

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    Looking past the fact that that exploit was used on plenty of GTA tests that didn't have SRF...

    I've used the exact same glitch in license tests in GT5, and something similar in earlier games (I called it "grass-hooking"). In GT3 it was possible to use the grass to exaggerate Scandinavian flicks on turn in, getting a speed through a turn that was otherwise impossible with the settings of the car at the time. Thanks to GT's limited tire model, the tiny amount of speed scrub this provided gave a noticeable advantage. Of course, the drawback was that it's far less reliable to nail consistently than the usual method.

    I can't help but notice you're always asking for people to test and show results, but you've yet to do it once (only cherry-picking certain YouTube videos). Why is that?
     
  29. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Have I ever posted anything that I have not tested?

    Now may I ask the same question of you.

    I do notice however that you totally ignore the main point (yet again) that neither title gets off track surface right, but you just have to jump to defend what almost no one else would (simply because it's GT).
     
  30. Tornado

    Tornado

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    You're not buying a used car in GT5, either, considering how wildy inflated all of the car prices are and considering "Standard Car Dealership" would be much more accurate of an identifier than "Used Car Dealership."

    You can do a reasonably good job finding the top speed of a supercar in Forza without even having to drive it.

    No, there are a few. Turn10 even used some of them the same way PD did, ie. to pad the car count. It's just that Turn10 didn't dedicate a long running publicity stunt to the fact that they were trying to give legitimacy to something that Need For Speed did in 1993.


    It wasn't particularly difficult to watch a Nissan Leaf accelerate faster in the early GT Academy 2012 tests when you drove it almost entirely in the grass then when you drove it just between the lines. Nor is it particularly difficult to find the thread dedicated to the issue.


    But maybe the sky isn't blue in Zer0land.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2013