FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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593
Germany
Lohmar, Germany
jabofu
DAG JaboFu
There is also the fact that all cars have the same behavior on FM3, except for the drivetrain type, where all the cars behave the same way in each type, they dont have self identity.

You have to back this up with some hard evidence. Otherwise I think you are very very wrong with this matter.

The cars behave extremely differently.

On the other hand, you have to understand that drive train types have a general behavior in real in common. A VW Golf share characteristics with a Honda Civic, because they are both front wheel drive. But they each have individual characteristics and that gets mirrored in the game too.

Maybe that is your own oppinion, but it is clearly not "fact".

BTW: I higly predict that you are playing with a controller, right?
 

OGL

98
I'll try to put my opinion on this whole GT5 vs FM4 thing.
For Forza 4:
1. More cars, more variety and always up-to-date.
2. More tracks and perhaps more real tracks
3. Tuning and painting
4. Userfriendly interface, fast loadings
5. Engine sounds and music in showrooms (just incredible, but don't like the track music very much)
6. Online
7. DLCs
8. Incredible quality in nearly every aspect, it will be quiet hard to outline serious flaws in FM4
9. Clarkson, simple as that
10. AI, damage and stuff like that
11. AutoVista (Hell Yeah)

Against Forza 4:
1. Trackside is still not very accurate on real tracks
2. Lack of night racing (well, it may still be announced)
3. Some BS flaws that I've read on forums like Claw-hands

For GT5:
1. Track accuracy
2. Music
3. GT-TV
4. Wheel support, but it is rather PS3's achievement than GT's
5. Night racing, but not weather( because it looks horrible)
6. Photo Travel and images export to HDD/Flashdrive

Against GT5:
1. Realy bad and outdated ingame graphics
2. Unstable framerate and screen tearing
3. Standart cars
4. Standart tracks
5. Bad AI
6. Bad collision physics and damage
7. Bad online
8. 4GB of patches (says it all)
9. Slow loadings even in menus (I swear I've spent more time looking at GT logo than on track)
 
JUST IN!!! DRIVE AS ARTYON SENNA CHALLENGE IN FM4 ON SUZUKA
Brian Eckberg confirmed it in this video at 3:10




Just when i taught i couldn't get any better. Damn Gt5 is game over....
 
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9,295
Germany
Duisburg
So, we can drive in loafer and we can look like the Stig - so, I'm assuming you can drive in different kinds of clothes? Kinda meh, but if they're allowing you to chose completely different outfits, not just a bit of recolouring, it add to the overall customization thing Forza has going on.

The "Drive in Loafer Like Ayrton Senna Challenge" does sound cool, though :D
 

Zer0

(Banned)
1,624
You have to back this up with some hard evidence. Otherwise I think you are very very wrong with this matter.

The cars behave extremely differently.

On the other hand, you have to understand that drive train types have a general behavior in real in common. A VW Golf share characteristics with a Honda Civic, because they are both front wheel drive. But they each have individual characteristics and that gets mirrored in the game too.

Maybe that is your own oppinion, but it is clearly not "fact".

BTW: I higly predict that you are playing with a controller, right?
The car recreations in FM seems modeled in a more simplistic way, GT games have always had a distinctive unique feel in every car aside of the obvious: speed, acceleration, etc.. a care to little details that makes every car a unique driving, like they were finetuned or programed with an extra layer of detail. The fact that you can read a random car review/report and experience the same specific handling nuances makes the difference.

Link.
Link.


Kazunori Yamauchi
Each time a car manufacturer announces a new mechanism and a thesis is submited we then study and add the new mechanism to our simulation model.
Link.


Jeremy Clarkson
I’m struggling: they’ve even managed to accurately reflect the differences between a Mercedes SL 600 and the Mercedes SL 55, which is hard enough to do in real life.
Link.


FM cars seems divided in drivetrains and adjusted with the basics specs to match the real car performance, not the real handling. Some things like turbo lag are lacking and I guess they don't program unique car electronics to every car but use predefined drivetrains to develop all of them.

For example all the AWD drivetrains seems programed like a single one. There is no playable difference between a Quattro centre differential and an EVO active differentials.


http://evomitsubishi.com/what-the-acd-actually-do-for-your-evo/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_(four_wheel_drive_system)

The same with the other drivetrains. Engine recreations are not much better, specially with turbo engines and linear power curves. The differences between the F40 in both games is a good proof of that.
 
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ItsHim

Premium
1,312
Germany
Bavaria/Germany
Hotspitta
Rubbish Rubbish and again Rubbish.. Your links and OPIONIONS dont proof:censored::lol:

Mind your language.

For Forza 2 T10 divided cars into brackets. Read it up in the FM2 CE booklet if you need proof.

Similar cars got thrown into one bracket and then the brackets were weighted and given performance classification. It is thus very safe to assume T10 didn't go to any lengths to model individual cars inside the respective bracket to any major extent.

I haven't read a statement yet they changed this way of modelling cars.

Asking for 'proof' is futile because neither me or you or anybody else can look into the source code. So reasonable conclusions must suffice. He backed up his statement by other independent opinions, which is good practice

I'd really wish you'd drop the swearing and join the discussion in an appropriate fashion.
 
107
Brazil
SP / Brazil
MARcFuLLa
You have to back this up with some hard evidence. Otherwise I think you are very very wrong with this matter.

The cars behave extremely differently.

On the other hand, you have to understand that drive train types have a general behavior in real in common. A VW Golf share characteristics with a Honda Civic, because they are both front wheel drive. But they each have individual characteristics and that gets mirrored in the game too.

Maybe that is your own oppinion, but it is clearly not "fact".

BTW: I higly predict that you are playing with a controller, right?

Nop, played both games with wheels, Forza 3 with MS Wheel and GT5 with G27 that i use on the PC sims too.

But OK indeed, i will try to not put what I said as "facts" anymore, really it was just my opinion and I used that word only as an expression.

Today unfortunately I can no longer play the Forza 3 because i've sold my Xbox and equipament, the wheel differences may have contributed for my opinions. But I still consider it a user friendly game in its gameplay.
 
1,732
cuco33
Both are not fully SIMs games, but Forza 3 is less than GT5 due to the fact of a driving aid that cannot be turned off (more like an active steering), only it makes the game much more for arcade than simulator. You can push a Forza car more harder in it's limits, beyond an acceptable line...It makes the game not so enjoyable...
Anyone who has played both games can say, try to drive the same car on it's edge in both Forza 3 and GT5, see the differences.

There is also the fact that all cars have the same behavior on FM3, except for the drivetrain type, where all the cars behave the same way in each type, they dont have self identity.

I really hope that T10 have worked better for Forza 4 in these areas, not only in the graphical of the game ...

I'm just going to say that based on the bolded part... I don't think you've ever played forza 3 cuz that's not fact by any means..
 

Scaff

Moderator
26,220
United Kingdom
He/Him
ScaffUK
ScaffGTP
Rubbish Rubbish and again Rubbish.. Your links and OPIONIONS dont proof:censored::lol:

I would strongly suggest that you calm down a little.

I have already had to delete one post that by-passed the swear filter and you are now getting rather clsoe to attacking the person rather than the point they make.

The AUP is clear on both these areas.


There is also the fact that all cars have the same behavior on FM3, except for the drivetrain type, where all the cars behave the same way in each type, they dont have self identity.

Unless you are able to back this up with independently verifiable proof then this is not a fact at all, its an opinion. Present opinion as fact again and you will be taking a holiday from GT Planet.


Scaff
 
107
Brazil
SP / Brazil
MARcFuLLa
Yep, already did the corrections over my manners in my last post, but Zer0's post its a good example on what i've said before.

God, take a ban only for using the "fact" word, you guys are taking this so much seriously, sorry

I'll remember to change the words "fact" by "in my opinion" in the next posts, thanks. :)
 
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Mind your language.

For Forza 2 T10 divided cars into brackets. Read it up in the FM2 CE booklet if you need proof.

...edit


Again Threadnoise. I went back and found NO SUCH THING:odd:.
Please dont make up more false claims like that. Or i will also go back into voicing my opinions about gt's standards, lack of dlc and frameratedrops, slow and fast corner physics glitch in GT5, backed up with dozens of reference links dugg up from the gt5 section...zike!

Let's keep this fair.👍:)


I would strongly suggest that you calm down a little.

Scaff

Ok I'le be cool.👍
 
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1,328
I am sorry but I really have to point something out.

Every single car in FM3 has it's own tire size and width, and we know for a fact that it affects handling directly, you can see it affecting the laterial G prediction and feel it.

However in GT5 test shows that with the same tire, contact patch has no effect and a Mini pulls the same laterial G as a corvette.

So HOW ON EARTH can one argue in GT5 every car feels different while in FM3 they don't?

First it is entirely subjective and cannot be proved, second the educated guess can only suggest otherwise.

I've ran in many Leagues in Forza 3, and I can safely tell you even for the same car, running an NA engine vs a supercharger alone creates handling differences. The fact that the supercharger sits high in the rear of my evora has make it handle worse on the esses of road atlanta and that's what I find out after hours of repeated testing.

And it took half a season to nail out the rear nervousness over bumps, after many tries in balancing front/rear tire width and rim size.

And the engine characteristic itself is also entirely different, there are "flatspots" in the power delivery with the supercharger, while the NA revs much more freely, and it is down to the physics engine being 100% sound.

If you can't tell that difference is it before you didn't put in enough time or just isn't sensitive enough. (and don't come to me saying you have tested on a pad)

And don't go and post some links about people saying how similiar GT5 cars are handling-wise with real cars, because for all the cars I have driven, most of them drive nothing like their virtual version either in FM or GT. In GT5 my Mini has almost natural oversteer and if that's the case in real life I would be dead by now.
 

Scaff

Moderator
26,220
United Kingdom
He/Him
ScaffUK
ScaffGTP
God, take a ban only for using the "fact" word, you guys are taking this so much seriously, sorry

No you got a warning for it and were told if you continued to do so then a 'holiday' or temp ban of a few days would follow.

The reason why is quite simple and outlined in the opening post of this thread, and even a quick scan of the existing posts should make it clear that its a volatile subject and as such one that will keep to the AUP or those failing to do so will find action taken against them.

However none of this exceeds what is in the AUP, which you agreed to follow when you joined.


Scaff
 
I'm pretty sure that FM3 cars physics are more accurate than GT5. And it is exactly because FM3 cars are not touched up one by one. They just put the manufacters data in their engine and "voila".

I do a lot of comparison beetween Edmund's website reviews and FM3 cars, and most of them are very precise.
 
10,168
Germany
Bonn
GTAce
They just put the manufacters data in their engine and "voila".
:lol: Thanks, now I know I don't have to take you seriously.

It's incredible to see how some people think game development works.
 

Zer0

(Banned)
1,624
You know what irks me? You went to great lengths to back your claims about GT5 up - which is nice, and I have the utmost respect for that. However, your claims about FM3 are just opinions and unsupported. So, really, I don't know why you'd go out of your way to try and find 'proof' for your thesis, if you're not willing to prove both sides of it.

I don't think you need proof for the claim that GT5 does a good job at conveying the driving feel of a specific car. However, as it stands, all those links donn't proof that GT does it better than FM. Pseude proof, that's what it is.

So I'll still just say this: Take the 993 GT2 and the 997 GT2 in FM3 and drive them. If you can't feel the tremendous difference between them (and they're very similar cars in terms of drive train layout), I'd say you're doing it wrong.
Like ItsHim said with no access to the low level code of both games or a detailed developers paper regarding the physics we can only share experiences and compare the results to real life reports/opinions and make conclusions.

Some things are common sense and do not need much of a real life backpup to make sure.

The GT5 part of my post was to explain why some people could find the car differences in FM lacking compared to GT. At the end of my post you have two examples of why the cars in FM3 could feel more similar within them and the possible causes. You can try for yourself and make your own conclusions. At the end this is a FM vs GT thread.

What are those tremendous differences that you speak? the last time I checked both Porsches were very docile, no big differences in the drivetrain except for the expected performance, even both cars were sharing the absence of lift off oversteer at cornering, a signal of identity of those cars, specially pronounced on old models like the 993 gt2.

[youtubehd]o3RSt-fsgFU[/youtubehd]

Maybe I'm expecting differences at the level of GT5 and what you see a big difference in FM to me is minor.
 
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4,151
United States
Edison NJ
jdmking13
Lucid killer 58
Like ItsHim said with no access to the low level code of both games or a detailed developers paper regarding the physics we can only share experiences and compare the results to real life reports/opinions and make conclusions.

Some things are common sense and do not need much of a real life backpup to make sure.

The GT5 part of my post was to explain why some people could find the car differences in FM lacking compared to GT. At the end of my post you have two examples of why the cars in FM3 could feel more similar within them and the possible causes. You can try for yourself and make your own conclusions. At the end this is a FM vs GT thread.

What are those tremendous differences that you speak? the last time I checked both Porsches were very docile, no big differences in the drivetrain except for the expected performance, even both cars were sharing the absence of lift off oversteer at cornering, a signal of identity of those cars, specially pronounced on old models like the 993 gt2.

[youtubehd]o3RSt-fsgFU[/youtubehd]

Maybe I'm expecting differences at the level of GT5 and what you see a big difference in FM to me is minor.

I agree with you zero there is no lift off oversteer in fm3 with those Porsches inFm3 the rufs im GT5 are a true challenege to drive smoothly. Its the same for the lotus also. These are going to be the 1st things I try im FM4
 
4,439
zr1chris
zr1chris
i agree with you zero there is no lift off oversteer in fm3 with those porsches infm3 the rufs im gt5 are a true challenege to drive smoothly. Its the same for the lotus also. these are going to be the 1st things i try im fm4

+1
 
9,295
Germany
Duisburg
What are those tremendous differences that you speak? the last time I checked both Porsches were very docile, no big differences in the drivetrain except for the expected performance, even both cars were sharing the absence of lift off oversteer at cornering, a signal of identity of those cars, specially pronounced on old models like the 993 gt2..
The differences I'm speaking of are, for example, that the 997 GT2 felt way more prone to understeer when entering corners, much like you'd expect from a modern road car, where safety is a much bigger concern for the initial setup. Also, the general tendency to oversteer is much more pronounced with the 993 GT2 - overall, it felt more lose, so to speak. With the default setup and no upgrades, of course.

I just want to rebutt the claim that cars in Forza feel the same when they share the drivetrain layout, because, franky, that's not true, at least not to my experience. You can also clearly feeln the difference between the more understeery and stablle Audi front engine - AWD drivetrain and the more lose but also more neutral front engine - AWD drivetrain of an Impreza. Again ,at least according to my experience with the game.

Whether the difference is as pronounced in Forza as it is in GT5 is something I don't really want to get into now, as that would also raise the question how different the cars feel in real life and how much of a difference should be considered realistic (which could probably again lie somewhere inbetween both FM3 and GT5).

But acting like the cars in FM3 fall into one of the six drivetrain catagories (FF, FR, MR, AWD, M-AWD, R-AWD) and all cars in a given catagory feel the same, that's just plain wrong and doesn't match with my experience with the game at all...
 
:lol: Thanks, now I know I don't have to take you seriously.

It's incredible to see how some people think game development works.

Actually, Sono is partly right in a sense. Here is a quote from an article.

The Physics: Math, Math, and More Math

The heart of the game is a program called Automagic. It allows Forza to offer over 400 accurately modeled cars without requiring that Turn 10 physically test and reverse-engineer each vehicle. Hundreds of data points — everything from moment of inertia and center of mass height to braking distances and a precise torque curve — are fed into the program, which then extrapolates out a digital performance model, calculating any missing information. "It's actually really difficult getting a complete set of numbers, [even with manufacturer help]," Greenawalt says. "There's almost always a game of telephone going on, and things are always rounded one way or the other by marketing groups or lawyers."

Source-http://jalopnik.com/5480781/inside-forza-motorsport-part-iii-the-physics-of-driving-games
 
:lol: Thanks, now I know I don't have to take you seriously.

It's incredible to see how some people think game development works.
Yeah, I know a lot of things regarding FM physics and development process, since the developers talk a lot about it. GT otherwise :ill:

I remember one FM producer talking about the physics engine in the original Forza. They are putting the Ferrari Enzo in the game and took the data from Ferrari (the Enzo was still in test phase in that time). They can't believe how awful the handling was, so the first previews on the car showed up, and that was true. The handling in the real car was awful too.

In the other side can't remember PD talking about their physics engine. Oh, but I remember one interview with the Kaz. When asked about the simulation in the game, Kaz answered: "Well, if I want a real driving experience, I just go to my garage and pick up one of my cars". Something like that.
 
10,168
Germany
Bonn
GTAce
Physics in video games are always done with numbers collected in files. You type in the height, engine power, torque and whatever, but it's not like you fill something out and then magically the car drives like it does in real life. If they really do it this way (without further tweaking), it would actually prove that their physics in the game aren't accurate, because no videogame engine can recreate all the needed calculations in real time. That's why you need to change things manually until it feels like the real thing (testing, testing, testing, trade-off, trade-off, trade-off).
 
3,748
United States
Wisconsin
Kvally
xHedon
One has to wonder why some people experience plenty of oversteer or understeer characteristics in FM3, as well as a different feeling for each and every car, and then some people don't.

I honestly am beginning to think there are 2 different copies of Forza 3 out there.
 
9,295
Germany
Duisburg
Physics in video games are always done with numbers collected in files. You type in the height, engine power, torque and whatever, but it's not like you fill something out and then magically the car drives like it does in real life. If they really do it this way (without further tweaking), it would actually prove that their physics in the game aren't accurate, because no videogame engine can recreate all the needed calculations in real time. That's why you need to change things manually until it feels like the real thing (testing, testing, testing, trade-off, trade-off, trade-off).
In theory, you could very well develop a complex algorythm to take the raw data of a car, like the suspension geometry, for example, to interpret the real world data to the point where it can be used by the physics engine - outside of the actual game, of course.

Also, manually tweaking the cars means that there is always subjective impressions influencing the whole thing. On the other hand, it's easier to meet expectations. For example, a lot of people would expect most modern RWD cars to be a lot more oversteery than they actually are, thanks to stuff like Top Gear showing them sideways all the time.

Then again, you'd have to go into a discussion about what game will be considered more realisitic: The one that is actually realisitic or the one that meets the expectations of most people, even though those aren't 100% realistic.
 
10,168
Germany
Bonn
GTAce
In theory, you could very well develop an complex algorythm to take the raw data of a car, like the suspension geometry, for example, to interpret the real world data to the point where it can be used by the physics engine - outside of the actual game, of course.
First, we don't live in a "theoretical" world and second, like you said yourself, outside of the actual game. How the real time game engine interprets the given information is a completely different story.
Also, manually tweaking the cars means that there is always subjective impressions influencing the whole thing. On the other hand, it's easier to meet expectations. For example, a lot of people would expect most modern RWD cars to be a lot more oversteery than they actually are, thanks to stuff like Top Gear showing them sideways all the time.
Of course, it IS, otherwise people wouldn't even argue about which game is more realistic. You can do a lot of things regarding this with minimal subjective impressions though, but that needs a lot of time and testing.
Then again, you'd have to go into a discussion aabout what game will be considered more realisitic: The one that is actually realisitic or the one that meets the expectations of most people, even thpugh those aren't 100% realistic.
I know people who think Shift 1 is as realistic as iRacing...