FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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zr1chris
zr1chris
I'm a bit late to the lift-off oversteer party, but those looking to experience Lift-off oversteer in FM3 should try these cars.

2005 Porsche #3 Lechner Racing 911 GT3 Cup
Lotus 2-Eleven
Just tried it and it is not the same as GT5 at all. Yes there is lift-off oversteer but very little and its gradual. In GT5 the car will snap sideways if your not careful.
 
4,151
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jdmking13
Lucid killer 58
Just tried it and it is not the same as GT5 at all. Yes there is lift-off oversteer but very little and its gradual. In GT5 the car will snap sideways if your not careful.

I did also. Same as you said, plus I think the race cars handle pretty good in FM3.
 
9,295
Germany
Duisburg
The question is: How much lift-off oversteer should those cars exhibit? I honestly don't know. On the one hand, I expect that the Lotus is pretty wild, which I think would be best depicted by GT, and on the other hand, the days in which every Porsche would go into insane liftt-off oversteer to bite your head off should be long gone, at least from what I've been reading - in fact, all I've ever heard of the 911 race cars (RSR, Cup variants) was that they exhibit annoying understeer if something wasn't working too well. THis, then, would point more to FM3, I think.

As I said, perceiving something as realisitc often hinges on your own expectations...
 
Well how does one argue with ALL the real life video comparisons so many professional and un-professional drivers have posted, aside from the gt5p ferrari video, the video rips and the revs randomly drop and raise so i can even tell that video is rigged, but im talking about the little miata from laguna to the merc sls along nordshleife... How is the game (gt5) less accurate than its competition (FM) if it has more "accurate" start stop finish times with records in real life?
 
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9,295
Germany
Duisburg
How is the game (gt5) less accurate than its competition (FM) if it has more "accurate" start stop finish times with records in real life?
Ask your self one thing: Are the conditions of the real trackss the same as in GT5? Probalby not. Are the drivers driving under the same conditions? Probably not (considering that fear is no factor in a game).

In fact, I'd expect a game to be slightly faster because you're not dealing with fear, because you're driving in the same conditions all the time and because you're able to do as many laps as you want to without wear and tear or money constraints.

Also, going back and forth through the tyre selection, you're quite easily capable to make the car in question faster or slower as needed.

Only food for thought, though.

Also, yeah, how does one argue with the comparision videos between real life and GT5 is there's so little FM3 videos doing the same? It's hard to prove which one is better overall if there's only video footage for one of them.
 
2,414
Ask your self one thing: Are the conditions of the real trackss the same as in GT5? Probalby not. Are the drivers driving under the same conditions? Probably not (considering that fear is no factor in a game).

In fact, I'd expect a game to be slightly faster because you're not dealing with fear, because you're driving in the same conditions all the time and because you're able to do as many laps as you want to without wear and tear or money constraints.

Also, going back and forth through the tyre selection, you're quite easily capable to make the car in question faster or slower as needed.

Only food for thought, though.

Also, yeah, how does one argue with the comparision videos between real life and GT5 is there's so little FM3 videos doing the same? It's hard to prove which one is better overall if there's only video footage for one of them.

Add to this, if a pro driver has raced a real life circuit (or a weekend warrior who's laid a few laps down on various tracks) enough times and you put him in an identical car in the game wouldn't he drive that car exactly like he would in real life EVEN if he could drive it faster in the game?
 
To the real vs virtual lap time debate. I think Forza 3's lap time is a bit faster then the real lap time due to the conditions.

Here is a little experiment I conducted. You should also try it.
Go into multiplayer mode for Forza 3; Set your front and rear tires to 5% wear to simulate tire wear.

Set the settings to 5% less engine power to simulate an engine down on power.

Run Laguna Seca with a car, then compare it with the real life lap time. They will have identical times.
 
1,328
You can find similiar comparison videos with GT4 prologue.


Doesn't it mean GT4 prologue is as realistic in physics as GT5? Of course not.

And here's one with F12010, a game that has totally off low speed physics:


So this sort of video proves nothing, the quality of the physics engine is in the fine details of handling, which you can't see from a video.
 
2,109
Russian Federation
Russia
I think achieving real lap times is almost pointless to judge how realistic physics are.It tells nothing about HOW that times are achieved, and all developers knows about real lap times and can tweak the game manually to achieve those numbers. It can be arcade game, but it's physics engine works that way that you can get real life lap times. Also if you didn't get those time you can think "ok, that's all about tires" and make a few tweaks just to confirm that your game is "real" for yourself.
I didn't say that GT and FM are not realistic at all. I just think it's maybe not a good way to judge it.
 
9,295
Germany
Duisburg
To the real vs virtual lap time debate. I think Forza 3's lap time is a bit faster then the real lap time due to the conditions.
👍
You can find similiar comparison videos with GT4 prologue.

Doesn't it mean GT4 prologue is as realistic in physics as GT5? Of course not.
👍
I think achieving real lap times is almost pointless to judge how realistic physics are.
👍

Exactly... Judging a game's physics by comparing the lap times to real life is a bit like judging a car's overall performance by just its 0 - 60 time.
 

amar212

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Where exactly does it proof that most of the cars have been test driven? :odd:

Devil's Advocate again.

In 2002 Polyphony Digital published a very interesting DVD titled "Attack Gran Turismo DVD". It is (was?) available only in Japan and have been very rare in the West. Fortunately - thanx to one fellow collector here on GTP - I am also in possession of that DVD and if anyone here debating would watch it would immediately know how ridiculous some claims regarding actual testing are.

DVD is a documentary showcasing research and testing process for cars/surfaces/compounds/etc for Gran Turismo 3, including all tremendous effort done in order to implement force feedback wheel technology.

Here is promotional segment I was able to find at Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwjgOm4lEW4

Secondly, initial european version of GT4:Prologue called "Signature Edition" included another great documentary which showcased a special track days footage organized by PD where dozens and dozens owners have brought hundreds of their cars for test driving and data-collection. Also, that video showcases testing done for driving over wet surfaces and so on, later included on GT4 for Tsukuba track.

I couldn't find any footage from it and I am not in the mood to rip it and such, but here's the segment from GT4 Prologue's ending movie where you can also see some testing conducted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0WJ-u6UBq8

Third, majority of people here are not amiliar with one very important fact - Kazunori and his team - especially Akihiko Tan - are close friends with all Best Motoring guys and data they've collected through past more than decade is vast. On both DVD's I've mentioned above you can see many Best Motoring drivers driving on GT-special test days. Also notice the extremely strong relationship that PD have with all major manufacturers, especially Nissan, Mazda and Mercedes-Benz.

Also worth noticing is experience and data gathered through person of Yutaka Ito who was heavily included in development of GT series when original Enthusia team was discontinued by Konami.

I am saying all this just to highlight how actual testing of cars done by PD is vast beyond any discussion. We have seen such small segments of it through last 14 years.
 
9,295
Germany
Duisburg
I am saying all this just to highlight how actual testing of cars done by PD is vast beyond any discussion. We have seen such small segments of it through last 14 years.
That would indeed showcase the effort PD put into testing their cars and I've got to admit, that's a lot more effort than i inititally would've thought they'd be doing.

I still have my doubts about the majority of the cars is being test driven, though. Some, sure. But I doubt that it's even possible to go out and test drive the bigger part of the cars in a game to make sure they handle true to their real counterpart.
 

amar212

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It shows, you just have to see those DVD's by yourself.

Of course, I am not implying how they've tested all of the cars - after all, there is whole universe of Concept vehicles and "Dream Car" racing cars that do not exist in real life - but those videos are testimony to vast testing done by PD in history (sequences for GT4: prologue DVD were shot in late 2003, it was 8 years ago) and we can all bet that testing in last few years was even greater.
 

Zer0

(Banned)
1,624
Secondly, initial european version of GT4:Prologue called "Signature Edition" included another great documentary which showcased a special track days footage organized by PD where dozens and dozens owners have brought hundreds of their cars for test driving and data-collection. Also, that video showcases testing done for driving over wet surfaces and so on, later included on GT4 for Tsukuba track.

I couldn't find any footage from it and I am not in the mood to rip it and such, but here's the segment from GT4 Prologue's ending movie where you can also see some testing conducted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0WJ-u6UBq8
Here you go:

[youtubehd]JZarfwGHJ84[/youtubehd]

[youtubehd]nIRsJX7v-Q4[/youtubehd]

[youtubehd]4cNY_KgyUjE[/youtubehd]

*Edit: My bad, I think you mean other vid, never seen the full edition of the Prologue's end trailer.

They were researching real life data for GT games since the beggining of the series.

[youtubehd]pemGjQRvV_M[/youtubehd]

With all the proof of things missing, toned down in purpose, real life comparison user opinions, professional motor press opinions, developers interviews quotes and all the playable differences between both games I'm very surprised how are still some people not sure about what game is more accurate and that they still are making excuses about GT results on things that Forza does not even remotely try to recreate in a realistic way. That is a total denial mode.

Matching Lap times with accurate driving inputs is a great achievement, that's a thing no one can deny, that's because it's important to see the player hands/feet in the comparison vids and not only the game screen.


Also, yeah, how does one argue with the comparision videos between real life and GT5 is there's so little FM3 videos doing the same? It's hard to prove which one is better overall if there's only video footage for one of them.
You answered your own question. Forza fan community is very strong on uploading vids, hd capture cards, steering wheels, etc and they make a lot of video edit of every possible FM theme.

Think about why there are so little real life video comparisons and think why there are so much of GT. If you still don't know re-read the C&D article. I'm sure a lot of people tried before but the result was not like they wanted.

Even GT4 with all its weak points made a good work recreating the RL inputs.



Add to this, if a pro driver has raced a real life circuit (or a weekend warrior who's laid a few laps down on various tracks) enough times and you put him in an identical car in the game wouldn't he drive that car exactly like he would in real life EVEN if he could drive it faster in the game?
You have the answer some pages back.
 
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9,295
Germany
Duisburg
You answered your own question. Forza fan community is very strong on uploading vids, hd capture cards, steering wheels, etc and they make a lot of video edit of every possible FM theme.

Think about why there are so little real life video comparisons and think why there are so much of GT. If you still don't know re-read the C&D article. I'm sure a lot of people tried before but the result was not like they wanted.
Given that there are more GT4 comparision videos than FM3 comparision videos, would that also indicate that GT4 offers better physics than FM3?
I actually doubt that. A lot. Hence, the amount of comparison videos seems to be a pretty moot point.

Oh, by the way: Just did a quick search on Youtube, there seem to be more GT5 vs. RL videos than there are iRacing vs. RL videos. That proves that GT5 is more accurate than iRacing, right?
 
Oh, by the way: Just did a quick search on Youtube, there seem to be more GT5 vs. RL videos than there are iRacing vs. RL videos. That proves that GT5 is more accurate than iRacing, right?

Correct im getting sick and tired of this guy posting half page in one post every darn day that doesnt prove anything but his ignorance.:lol: It's just one track. Gt doesnt even have:

- Twin Ring Motegi
- Road America
- Road Atlanta
- Circuit de Catalunya
- Sebring

Fm will have:
-Hokkenheim Ring
-Indianopolis Motor Speedway.
-Bernese Alps
-Infinion Raceway
-Topgear's best driving road in the World...


Watch the grafitti on the road. So much for the "fm Nurb too wide" Argument ey:D


SilverStone
 
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Zer0

(Banned)
1,624
Zero are you buying Forza 4 mate?
If finally becomes a great sim or what they promised with FM3 of course, but there is still a lot of work for that. The discussion here is mainly with FM3 or older games. No one played FM4 yet!


Given that there are more GT4 comparision videos than FM3 comparision videos, would that also indicate that GT4 offers better physics than FM3?
I actually doubt that. A lot. Hence, the amount of comparison videos seems to be a pretty moot point.

Oh, by the way: Just did a quick search on Youtube, there seem to be more GT5 vs. RL videos than there are iRacing vs. RL videos. That proves that GT5 is more accurate than iRacing, right?
Better result in most cases, yes. More realism regarding more complex physics, of course not.

Just look at the Yellowbird comparison or some things that are still lacking in FM3 and were present in GT4: snap oversteer, linear steering input, active steering off, lossing control and spinning when you step one tire on grass with no aids, etc..

I know that much people made jokes about GT4 not being a simulation focusing only in the bad spots, and that bad mantra made a fact for some that don't knew too much about the game or trust others words in forums but even far from being perfect did some things better than other popular acclaimed games.

About iRacing, no, that proves that GT5 it has more popular real life tracks and cars and is more easy to make comparisons, also GT5 sold millions, iracing have a base of registered users of thousands.
 
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amar212

GTSurgeons.com
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...iracing have a base of registered users of thousands.

Approx 20.000 and unfortunate continuos small decline. They've even lowered the prices significantly, but they just can't attract new users.

Wonder what 2.0 engine will do, but I think not much in mainstream. I think they're stuck in limbo now, together will all major PC franchises. Production costs went sky-high for all of them and they revenue through small userbase just can't make those costs viable.

Will be interesting to watch over, as usual I have my theories and forecasts regarding overall future of genre on PC, but I find them not really so interesting to be publicly discussed.
 
2,414
If finally becomes a great sim or what they promised with FM3 of course, but there still is a lot of work for that. The discussion here is mainly with FM3 or older games. No one played FM4 yet!



Better result in most cases, yes. More realism regarding more complex physics, of course not.

Juts look at the Yellowbird comparison or some things that are still lacking in FM3 and were present in GT4: snap oversteer, linear steering input, active steering off, lossing control and spinning when you step one tire on grass with no aids, etc..

I know that much people made jokes about GT4 not being a simulation focusing only in the bad spots, and that bad mantra make a fact for some that don't knew too much about the game or trust others words in forums but even far from being perfect did some things better than other popular aclaimed games.

About iRacing, no, that proves that GT5 it has more popular real life tracks and cars and is more easy to make comparissons, also GT5 sold millions, iracing have a base of registered users of thousands.

See this is the problem I have with GT5's following. If it happens in their game it's supposed to happen in all games and the universe. I'll take this one example for instance, tires on grass. I've seen A TON of races on TV where one tire is CONSTANTLY hitting grass and guess what? A little dust gets kicked up. A bit of suspension play but the car keeps on rolling like nothing happened. One tire in the grass does not automatically mean "call the medics". Same with FM3. Plenty of times I dip in the grass and keep moving, a few times I put that rear wheel in there wrong and the next thing I know I'm calling 911 as I'm headed for doom.

There's gotta be something more to GT5 than physics for people to go so crazy about it. If physics is one's top priorty then why does one even purchase a PS3 and GT5? There's other games out there that do that MUCH beter, why aren't those people on those games.
 

PzR Slim

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See this is the problem I have with GT5's following. If it happens in their game it's supposed to happen in all games and the universe. I'll take this one example for instance, tires on grass. I've seen A TON of races on TV where one tire is CONSTANTLY hitting grass and guess what? A little dust gets kicked up. A bit of suspension play but the car keeps on rolling like nothing happened. One tire in the grass does not automatically mean "call the medics". Same with FM3. Plenty of times I dip in the grass and keep moving, a few times I put that rear wheel in there wrong and the next thing I know I'm calling 911 as I'm headed for doom.

There's gotta be something more to GT5 than physics for people to go so crazy about it. If physics is one's top priorty then why does one even purchase a PS3 and GT5? There's other games out there that do that MUCH beter, why aren't those people on those games.

Have to agree with this. I watch a load of touring car racing. They are constantly getting one wheel on the grass and the vast majority of the time they drive on like nothing happened. This idea that one wheel on the grass means and instant spin is fantasy.
 
4,151
United States
Edison NJ
jdmking13
Lucid killer 58
t.o.
See this is the problem I have with GT5's following. If it happens in their game it's supposed to happen in all games and the universe. I'll take this one example for instance, tires on grass. I've seen A TON of races on TV where one tire is CONSTANTLY hitting grass and guess what? A little dust gets kicked up. A bit of suspension play but the car keeps on rolling like nothing happened. One tire in the grass does not automatically mean "call the medics". Same with FM3. Plenty of times I dip in the grass and keep moving, a few times I put that rear wheel in there wrong and the next thing I know I'm calling 911 as I'm headed for doom.

There's gotta be something more to GT5 than physics for people to go so crazy about it. If physics is one's top priorty then why does one even purchase a PS3 and GT5? There's other games out there that do that MUCH beter, why aren't those people on those games.

I guess you did not see the video of FM3 with the Enzo loosing no control while hitting the grass at the Ring at high speeds. Im not saying you can never recover but that was ridiculous. Yes GT5 physics are very good IMO all the cars have a unique feeling. You say It's games that do It better please give examples.
 

PzR Slim

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I guess you did not see the video of FM3 with the Enzo loosing no control while hitting the grass at the Ring at high speeds. Im not saying you can never recover but that was ridiculous. Yes GT5 physics are very good IMO all the cars have a unique feeling. You say It's games that do It better please give examples.

FM3 is one. It simulates power on understeer in fwd cars much better than GT5. And there is no denying it simulates changes in tyre pressure better than GT5. Plenty of things GT5 does better than FM3 in the physics department. But it's impossible to say one is better than the other. They are just different to one another.
 
593
Germany
Lohmar, Germany
jabofu
DAG JaboFu
See this is the problem I have with GT5's following. If it happens in their game it's supposed to happen in all games and the universe. I'll take this one example for instance, tires on grass. I've seen A TON of races on TV where one tire is CONSTANTLY hitting grass and guess what? A little dust gets kicked up. A bit of suspension play but the car keeps on rolling like nothing happened. One tire in the grass does not automatically mean "call the medics". Same with FM3. Plenty of times I dip in the grass and keep moving, a few times I put that rear wheel in there wrong and the next thing I know I'm calling 911 as I'm headed for doom.

There's gotta be something more to GT5 than physics for people to go so crazy about it. If physics is one's top priorty then why does one even purchase a PS3 and GT5? There's other games out there that do that MUCH beter, why aren't those people on those games.

Exactly. GT5 does have a quite good physics engine, but it is not that much better than FM3 and also has its failures.

I know why there are not so many more people on Iracing, because their range of cars and tracks are heavily focused on oval racing. And who pays 10-15 $/€ for one car or one track, that is crazy. I used some promotional codes to use it for several month and it has some quite good physics, but in the end you just have a handful of cars and tracks.

So what is so much more advanced in GT5? The physics? Sure, PD did some great things there and as stated from others, they invested some serious real world testing for it. But it is not that much better what FM3 has.

Testing real cars in every detail and serious manner is no guarantee for a flawless ingame experience. PD did a great job, but Turn10 wasnt day-sleeping. In my opinion some people are blended by GT5 and protect it a bit too much.
 
9,295
Germany
Duisburg
Better result in most cases, yes. More realism regarding more complex physics, of course not.
You know, by switching tyres back and forth (which you have to do anyways because the stock tyres in GT5 don't seem to represent the real stock tyres very well), you could of course achieve very close times, even with completely unrealistic physics.

Thus, I doubt that matching real life times is an accomplishment at all. Hell, if I wanted to, I could throw some sports tyres on the cars in FM3 and just not go all out on the throttle here and there to match a given time - and without telemetry showing that, nobody would know.

Just look at the Yellowbird comparison or some things that are still lacking in FM3 and were present in GT4: snap oversteer, linear steering input, active steering off, lossing control and spinning when you step one tire on grass with no aids, etc..

I know that much people made jokes about GT4 not being a simulation focusing only in the bad spots, and that bad mantra made a fact for some that don't knew too much about the game or trust others words in forums but even far from being perfect did some things better than other popular acclaimed games.
The primary issue I heard and read about with GT4 was always its tendency to understeer, which resulted in a lot of cars not behaving very realistcly at all. Which, you know, should prove that point: Realistic physics are not required to produce realistic lap times.

About iRacing, no, that proves that GT5 it has more popular real life tracks and cars and is more easy to make comparisons, also GT5 sold millions, iracing have a base of registered users of thousands.
So, if it's GT vs. iRacing, there are other factors involved, such as the size of the community, but when it's GT vs. FM, the only possible reason is because FM is unrealistic? :odd:

See this is the problem I have with GT5's following. If it happens in their game it's supposed to happen in all games and the universe. I'll take this one example for instance, tires on grass. I've seen A TON of races on TV where one tire is CONSTANTLY hitting grass and guess what? A little dust gets kicked up. A bit of suspension play but the car keeps on rolling like nothing happened. One tire in the grass does not automatically mean "call the medics". Same with FM3. Plenty of times I dip in the grass and keep moving, a few times I put that rear wheel in there wrong and the next thing I know I'm calling 911 as I'm headed for doom.
What?! Dude, seriously, are saying that GT doesn't do that right? Man, you know, seriously, if those races you're watching are different then GT5, they must be unrealistic.

:sly:
 

Zer0

(Banned)
1,624
See this is the problem I have with GT5's following. If it happens in their game it's supposed to happen in all games and the universe. I'll take this one example for instance, tires on grass. I've seen A TON of races on TV where one tire is CONSTANTLY hitting grass and guess what? A little dust gets kicked up. A bit of suspension play but the car keeps on rolling like nothing happened. One tire in the grass does not automatically mean "call the medics". Same with FM3. Plenty of times I dip in the grass and keep moving, a few times I put that rear wheel in there wrong and the next thing I know I'm calling 911 as I'm headed for doom.

There's gotta be something more to GT5 than physics for people to go so crazy about it. If physics is one's top priorty then why does one even purchase a PS3 and GT5? There's other games out there that do that MUCH beter, why aren't those people on those games.
You are making the same mistake trusting Forza over other games. If there is a thing you would trust is real life. Like I said there are things that are common sense, happens a lot in amateur motorsports(more prone to mistakes) and in a similar violent fashion as in GT5, I cant's say the same with FM3.

Jump to 3:00

[youtubehd]3m0Cb-k_zcc&hd=1[/youtubehd]

[youtubehd]_kQoM_ywVS8&hd=1[/youtubehd]

[youtubehd]cmTnIpPn8yc[/youtubehd]

[youtubehd]paW6_sk7U6k[/youtubehd]
 
9,295
Germany
Duisburg
You are making the same mistake trusting Forza over other games. If there is a thing you would trust is real life. Like I said there are things that are common sense, happens a lot in amateur motorsports(more prone to mistakes) and in a similar violent fashion as in GT5, I cant's say the same with FM3.

Jump to 3:00
And what's with the hundreds of times that drivers put one wheel off and, unlike in GT5, nothing happens? :odd:
The argument wasn't that it does not happeen, the argument was that it doesn't seem to happen as often or as easily as it does in GT. That's what I got from t.o.'s post, at least.
 
4,366
Antarctica
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It seems that Amar found those vids.

I'm not sure if I should point point plenty of mistaken statements that have been done in the latest paragraphs, but I will point out something that I found last night, regarding GT4 vs FM3 weight transfer and maybe suspension model:

You see, when I played GT5 and FM3 I could not stop noticing that the movement of the chasis is more noticeable in GT games, and is significantly reduced in FM, even compared to GT4 chasis movement, I can notice the tyre deforming but there is very little movement on the chasis, specially in cars like the Honda NSX in Suzuka, IRL Clarkson vid also supports this by showing the movement of the chasis in Laguna Seca on the NSX, I compare them both(in fact I compare GT4/GT5/FM2/FM3) and the movement of the chasis is really reduced on FM2, even more reduced on FM3, needless to say IRL version was closer to a mid ground between GT5/GT4, this aspect also seems to affect the weight transfer on each game because I was able to spin like Clarkson did on GT5 after going very aggressive in the last corner, and this never happened on FM(in neither).
 
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PzR Slim

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You are making the same mistake trusting Forza over other games. If there is a thing you would trust is real life. Like I said there are things that are common sense, happens a lot in amateur motorsports(more prone to mistakes) and in a similar violent fashion as in GT5, I cant's say the same with FM3.

Jump to 3:00

[youtubehd]3m0Cb-k_zcc&hd=1[/youtubehd]

[youtubehd]_kQoM_ywVS8&hd=1[/youtubehd]

[youtubehd]cmTnIpPn8yc[/youtubehd]

[youtubehd]paW6_sk7U6k[/youtubehd]

No he's not. He is trusting what he see's in the real world. You complained that FM3 didn't result in uncontrollable cars when you put one wheel on the grass. He and I said we had seen plenty of examples of this in real racing. One wheel on the grass does not automatically result in a spin as you suggested earlier. Neither game simulates the real world perfectly and each game does some things better than the other. I accept that neither is perfect but don't let that stop me enjoying both. This constant need to prove one is better than the other really is rather sad.