FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Griffith500]

Not sure I understand what you asking.

Because the whole focus of making a game or a product, or a movie, or a service is for money. In order to be competetive, you have market to your audience and let me know why your product is better....or why the comp's is worse.

Not many people play nice when it come to market share or making money.

Do you think people make movies or games just because they want people to enjoy them? Maybe a little bit, but the end goal is to get a larger return on investment. Even indie movie and game devs produce their products in hopes of making money...and hopefully making it big.

Basically dont expect a company to miss a chance to A. Make more money or B. Hurt their competitor's chance of market share. Thats why PD will be relaseing updates in hopes to keep people loyal to GT5 closer to FM4 release. Also why you hear jabs like the Premium cars with all cockpits thing. Or EA buying out the NFL contract to assure they have no comp.

This. "Dog eat dog". Barbarian. You know, inhuman. I respect the right to earn a profit, but really, I don't see the need to play dirty, not when these games are on different consoles. Or perhaps that's the real reason. They're actually equating hardware sales with these games. Raise the stakes, and people get more desperate, I suppose.

Besides, you said yourself, some people will stay with a brand for no reason at all, so surely there's no need to take cheap shots (EDIT: or resort to dirty tactics of any kind, i.e. Sony's timing), if that is indeed what they're doing.

Finally, it still doesn't excuse certain kinds of behaviour in "discussing" the two series.

 

[Luminis]

AC Cars and Shelby are NOT the same brand. Carol used the AC 427 body when making the Shelby Cobra, but the Cobra has a different engine than the AC. And...AC Cars is from Britain and Shelby is American. Any true car guy will tell you that AC and Shelby aren't the same and shame on T10 if they include the two under the same brand.

Well, actually, no, Carroll Shelby didn't use the AC Cobra 427 to build anything. The AC Cobra (which is also called Shelby Cobra) was the result from what he did.

He ordered cars from AC Cars to accept a V8 (a 260CI Ford small block, I think). AC Cars delivered two prototypes based on the AC Ace, which were fitted with the V8 and henceforth known as the Cobra.

So, if you see a Cobra, it's actually a colaboration between AC Cars, Ford and Shelby, either way you slice it.

So, ahem, shame on any car guy that tells you that there is, in fact, a difference between the AC Cobra and the Shelby Cobra, because, at the end of the day, the AC Cobra and the Shelby Cobra are just synonyms for the same car. To my knowledge, "AC Cobra" was the official name, though. The AC 427, you're speaking of, is the very one with the famed Ford 427 engine, by the way.

Even a quick look at Wikipedia would confirm as much:

The AC Cobra, also known colloquially as the Shelby Cobra in North America, is an Anglo-American sports car that was produced during the 1960s.

So much for "true car guys".

And Art Morrison is a private tuner who uses Chevrolet parts.
Just like the "Trans Cammer" isn't a Ford anymore.
HPA also uses cars from different manufacturers, if the Golf would be a Premium too, I would want to see it next to the TT and not seperated in VW, while the TT is listed under Audi.

Dunno, I'm fairly certain that the HPA Audi TT retained the Audi VIN, while their Golf likely retained its VW VIN. I know fairly few "tuner" companies that are actually considered manufacturers.

 

[Griffith500]

Also, just FYI: "Carroll Shelby"

 

[Terronium-12]

Stop nitpicking.

 

[Luminis]

Also, just FYI: "Carroll Shelby"

Thanks, fixed that

Oh well, as mentioned above: Just go by the VIN and be done with it. That's my take on the whole "what should be listed as a manufacturer" thing, at least.

 

[Griffith500]

Stop nitpicking.

Well I don't know about you, but where I live "Carol" is a girl's name. Getting someone's name right is one of the basest (and most important) courtesies.

 

[SuperShouden]

Stop nitpicking.

Who are you talking to, me or everyone else?

 

[Vaxxtx]

This. "Dog eat dog". Barbarian. You know, inhuman. I respect the right to earn a profit, but really, I don't see the need to play dirty, not when these games are on different consoles. Or perhaps that's the real reason. They're actually equating hardware sales with these games. Raise the stakes, and people get more desperate, I suppose.

Besides, you said yourself, some people will stay with a brand for no reason at all, so surely there's no need to take cheap shots (EDIT: or resort to dirty tactics of any kind, i.e. Sony's timing), if that is indeed what they're doing.

Finally, it still doesn't excuse certain kinds of behaviour in "discussing" the two series.

Eh, its all relative in the business world. I spent a good portion of my life working with advertising and marketing for big to small companies. The one golden truth I learned, there is not much in the ways of ethics lol.

*I* dont consider the interview a cheap shot really. I actually find it clever and it brought attention to the fact F4 is going to have cockpits and cars models are all equal. It also brought attention to people that might consoder it a jab, to watch it, and wether they like it or not....talk about it. Again a good move. At the same time I think Sony dropping some updates around that same time is strategically sound as well. Try everything to keep people interested and not looking at a competitors launch.

I am still not sure about your last line though. What behaviour are you talking about?

 

[Griffith500]

Eh, its all relative in the business world. I spent a good portion of my life working with advertising and marketing for big to small companies. The one golden truth I learned, there is not much in the ways of ethics lol.

*I* dont consider the interview a cheap shot really. I actually find it clever and it brought attention to the fact F4 is going to have cockpits and cars models are all equal. It also brought attention to people that might consoder it a jab, to watch it, and wether they like it or not....talk about it. Again a good move. At the same time I think Sony dropping some updates around that same time is strategically sound as well. Try everything to keep people interested and not looking at a competitors launch.

I am still not sure about your last line though. What behaviour are you talking about?

See, my beef isn't with Dan exactly, or that interview at all really - as I keep saying. It's with the idiots who post ridiculous assertions of one game's supremacy based on a flawed understanding of something someone said somewhere, insult the developers of the other game and revel in the idea that they will be "destroyed" by their favourite thing in the world. It's not fair on the developers.

Of course, this happens on all sides, for all games, near enough.

I do believe that Dan could have worded some things better, though. And he needs to stop mis-using words, too. Bless him.
And I do believe that Sony shouldn't be timing updates that people have been waiting for, (and are no doubt at least partially complete in a way that parts of them could have been trickled out in updates sooner), just to stick two fingers up at T10. It's infantile, never mind "unethical".

Maybe I should blame the "idiots" more, but you know that publishers and marketers in general could do more to prevent this tendency in certain people by making sure not to give them the ammunition in a form ready to throw at each other. I don't know what non-gamers think of it all, though, since you don't have to look far to find this sort of thing.

 

[Vaxxtx]

See, my beef isn't with Dan exactly, or that interview at all really - as I keep saying. It's with the idiots who post ridiculous assertions of one game's supremacy based on a flawed understanding of something someone said somewhere, insult the developers of the other game and revel in the idea that they will be "destroyed" by their favourite thing in the world. It's not fair on the developers.

Of course, this happens on all sides, for all games, near enough.

I do believe that Dan could have worded some things better, though. And he needs to stop mis-using words, too. Bless him.
And I do believe that Sony shouldn't be timing updates that people have been waiting for, (and are no doubt at least partially complete in a way that parts of them could have been trickled out in updates sooner), just to stick two fingers up at T10. It's infantile, never mind "unethical".

Maybe I should blame the "idiots" more, but you know that publishers and marketers in general could do more to prevent this tendency in certain people by making sure not to give them the ammunition in a form ready to throw at each other. I don't know what non-gamers think of it all, though, since you don't have to look far to find this sort of thing.

In a perfect world...gah that would be nice, I do agree.

There was a movie in 1990 with Dudley Moore called Crazy People. It was a cute little comedy in which Dudley Moore was an Ad guy and for a spoof, just went totally honest in ALL the ads he made. Stuff like "Volvo....they are boxy but they are good." And other "honesty in advertising" commericals and print. Even though it was funny, it still made you think what would happen if everyone didnt sugar coat their products? What would their marketing be like?

In fact, here is one that was in the movie for Sony. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93KrnZ0UJQk
And one for Jag http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCiGusVYOgY&feature=related
And the Volo one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTJZEK4JP0k&feature=related

In a perfect world it would be like that

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

How is that line a Low blow, when PD is at Gamescom this year, with a game that been out for almost 2 years?


Yeah trying to take the spot light much?

 

[Griffith500]

In a perfect world...gah that would be nice, I do agree.

There was a movie in 1990 with Dudley Moore called Crazy People. It was a cute little comedy in which Dudley Moore was an Ad guy and for a spoof, just went totally honest in ALL the ads he made. Stuff like "Volvo....they are boxy but they are good." And other "honesty in advertising" commericals and print. Even though it was funny, it still made you think what would happen if everyone didnt sugar coat their products? What would their marketing be like?

In fact, here is one that was in the movie for Sony. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93KrnZ0UJQk
And one for Jag http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCiGusVYOgY&feature=related
And the Volo one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTJZEK4JP0k&feature=related

In a perfect world it would be like that

Yeah, that film is great. And I would love it if advertising was really like that, too, at times; but then what about those people who are trying to rip you off? You might feel inclined to actually give them some money for their honesty. Or not. No, probably not.

How is that line a Low blow, when PD is at Gamescom this year, with a game that been out for almost 2 years?


Yeah trying to take the spot light much?

Haha, I hadn't even noticed. Oh look, it's in the news.

EDIT: what game's been out for two years?

 

[OGL]

I personally see no way in hell PD can compete with T10 after the release of FM4. I'd rather prefer them make a sequel to Tourist Trophy, the bikes might be easier to model than cars. Or at least Sony must give them 500 more employees to convert the standarts into premiums and release GT6 at PS4's launch.

 

[Griffith500]

I personally see no way in hell PD can compete with T10 after the release of FM4. I'd rather prefer them make a sequel to Tourist Trophy, the bikes might be easier to model than cars. Or at least Sony must give them 500 more employees to convert the standarts into premiums and release GT6 at PS4's launch.

I'm wondering the same. TT2 would be great, I'd be more than happy to see it.
It raises the question of whether these updates to GT5 are going to "compete" (on paper, at least) with Forza 4, and whether Sony would be better placed just to get on with it, get the fixes out sooner rather than later and focus on the next game, whatever that is.

 

[OGL]

Or at least make Motor Toon GP 3 ))

 

[bullet360]

Blind followers = Fanboys

And PD lost A LOT of them with GT5. They lost me for sure. I dont expect PD to be able to sell us this poo once more. I dont think Sony will even let them.. (by that i mean that PD wont be given total production control, planning control, and delivery control. They wont be able to take six years and release a half-done game, they will need to make a good game in 2, max 3 years.

And i personally think they cant do that..

Well seeing they completely started from scratch, new physics engine, lighting, ai awareness, (TBH thr ai was never broken in the firstplace, the "crashing" ai video that was created by a forza fanboy was later debunked and proven wrong), with the workers in the numbers as the same as a village, being forced to release a game early by its main company (sony)... Do you honestly think PD was happy releasing such an unfinished game? But thats not our fault, the transition between gt2 and gt3 was just about the same so... I dont know, PD sure got jipped and so did the fans of the gt series... But don't blame PD, im tired of telling those that dont know, learn the facts please its only been 9 months sincethe games release

 

[bullet360]

Is T10 still claiming that they have the most manufacturers of any racing game? 'cause I think they're just tied with GT5. I guess will have to compare the numbers when FM4 comes out...but for the record:

GT4 - 92 makes
GT5 - 99 makes

So...yeah. I don't know where T10 came up with 80 makes = the most of any racing game.

And how many manufacter's in gt2?

 

[bullet360]

How is that line a Low blow, when PD is at Gamescom this year, with a game that been out for almost 2 years?

Haha um if you're referring to gt5, then sorry to burst your bubble but the release of gt5 is only 9 months... November 24th 2010... Perhaps couple days later at the most in Europe or China...

 

[Nero9]

And how many manufacter's in gt2?

30-35. Also, instead of triple posting, use the Edit button. 👍

 

[bullet360]

30-35. Also, instead of triple posting, use the Edit button. 👍

Ya my mistake, I should learn to edit, Please forgive if im triple posting, this app on the ipod touch 4g isnt too reliable...
And only 30 some odd manufacture's with well over 700 cars? Really ?

 

[cuco33]

Well seeing they completely started from scratch, new physics engine, lighting, ai awareness, (TBH thr ai was never broken in the firstplace, the "crashing" ai video that was created by a forza fanboy was later debunked and proven wrong), with the workers in the numbers as the same as a village, being forced to release a game early by its main company (sony)... Do you honestly think PD was happy releasing such an unfinished game? But thats not our fault, the transition between gt2 and gt3 was just about the same so... I dont know, PD sure got jipped and so did the fans of the gt series... But don't blame PD, im tired of telling those that dont know, learn the facts please its only been 9 months sincethe games release

I'm still one of those people that doesn't believe Kaz when he claimed they completely started from scratch. Many assets were reused and it's obvious when you look at some tracks and some cars; where some cars still had the same issue in specs like the Volvo wagon weighing 400lbs more than the real thing. The physics engine might be new though and it drives great to me. The AI in GT5 is nothing to brag about by any means. Those videos created by brand loyalists on both sides were taking specific cases where the game code might do well or might go wonky. You'd have to play both franchises (and other racers really) to see how bad GT5's AI can be. It's not terrible like is portrayed but it's certainly not reference AI for racers like many thought it'd be after the hype.

How did PD get jipped though? They were the reason for GT5's release. They were too arrogant to expand their team or outsource any work while they were sidetracked with non gaming development projects. Sony added some by having them implement 3D and work on 4K tech demos, amongst others. That's the facts. You only need to go on PD's own website and look at everything they listed down during GT5's development and remember the things that they didn't put down as accomplishments. Then recall 60+million in funding and over 5 years development where GT5P was supposed to be the stop gap. GT5 is still a great game but the flaws and glaring issues are due to PD's fault first and foremost, and then you can toss Sony as 2nd most responsible for the outcome.

Also, I'm not sure on the official car manufacturer count with PD because many of them listed aren't manufacturers but tuners (not like RUF, I'm talking about AEM, Blitz, etc)

 

[bullet360]

I'm still one of those people that doesn't believe Kaz when he claimed they completely started from scratch. Many assets were reused and it's obvious when you look at some tracks and some cars; where some cars still had the same issue in specs like the Volvo wagon weighing 400lbs more than the real thing. The physics engine might be new though and it drives great to me. The AI in GT5 is nothing to brag about by any means. Those videos created by brand loyalists on both sides were taking specific cases where the game code might do well or might go wonky. You'd have to play both franchises (and other racers really) to see how bad GT5's AI can be. It's not terrible like is portrayed but it's certainly not reference AI for racers like many thought it'd be after the hype.

How did PD get jipped though? They were the reason for GT5's release. They were too arrogant to expand their team or outsource any work while they were sidetracked with non gaming development projects. Sony added some by having them implement 3D and work on 4K tech demos, amongst others. That's the facts. You only need to go on PD's own website and look at everything they listed down during GT5's development and remember the things that they didn't put down as accomplishments. Then recall 60+million in funding and over 5 years development where GT5P was supposed to be the stop gap. GT5 is still a great game but the flaws and glaring issues are due to PD's fault first and foremost, and then you can toss Sony as 2nd most responsible for the outcome.

Also, I'm not sure on the official car manufacturer count with PD because many of them listed aren't manufacturers but tuners (not like RUF, I'm talking about AEM, Blitz, etc)

I get what you are saying completely, no the ai isnt terrible... But its quite far from great also... Quite possibly the furthest. Atleast gt3 and 4's were pushing through turns and apex's, i actually went 2 wide through some turns on gt3 and some ai gave me draft, but thats a different story. Yes many many MANY things are not needed in gt5, the 3D, the headtracking, the countless varients of the miata, gtr, and s2000, they have accomplished a lot
more with significantly less time and less money. But for me its still enjoyable. Even on an SD screen it still blows me away in lots of different ways. The game is actuallt more terriblerhan its good but when its good... Holy moly its good, and finally its been 9 months since the release and mostly all te bad drivers are gone. But those stories are for a different thread. I'll reserve pro's and cons for forza 4 until it comes out... The only GREAT thing gt has to offer is fun online with friends, a somewhat realistic phsyics engine and cars "natural" beauty without liveries and stickers/sponsers...

 

[JDMKING13]

I get what you are saying completely, no the ai isnt terrible... But its quite far from great also... Quite possibly the furthest. Atleast gt3 and 4's were pushing through turns and apex's, i actually went 2 wide through some turns on gt3 and some ai gave me draft, but thats a different story. Yes many many MANY things are not needed in gt5, the 3D, the headtracking, the countless varients of the miata, gtr, and s2000, they have accomplished a lot
more with significantly less time and less money. But for me its still enjoyable. Even on an SD screen it still blows me away in lots of different ways. The game is actuallt more terriblerhan its good but when its good... Holy moly its good, and finally its been 9 months since the release and mostly all te bad drivers are gone. But those stories are for a different thread. I'll reserve pro's and cons for forza 4 until it comes out... The only GREAT thing gt has to offer is fun online with friends, a somewhat realistic phsyics engine and cars "natural" beauty without liveries and stickers/sponsers...

You would be blown out your socks If you had a True 1080P 120hz at least 40inch+ TV. When my friends come by they envy the Samsung.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

See having a good selection of cars ( not millions that look overrated ), tracks, RT physics maybe and RT weather for every single track.You've knocked GT5 into a cocked hat.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Haha um if you're referring to gt5, then sorry to burst your bubble but the release of gt5 is only 9 months... November 24th 2010... Perhaps couple days later at the most in Europe or China...

Last year, why are they at this years gamescom?

 

[jabofu]

Last year, why are they at this years gamescom?

I bet there was no single standard car to be seen at the show.

Sony is not always so bright with their decisions. Like how they failed to implement cross game chat.

On the other hand there is not much more that they could show, i mean just look at their line-up for gamescom.

 

[bullet360]

You would be blown out your socks If you had a True 1080P 120hz at least 40inch+ TV. When my friends come by they envy the Samsung.

Oh ya, try a 48" samsung plasma, logitech g27 idunno how many hz... And a racing seat with a 12" sub in the back with 5 tweeters,
my bestfriend spent like $2000 on equipment... Ps3 250gb=$355, 4 controllers at about $50 a piece, a 48" plasma from his dad an easy $500, (nhl10, nhl11, gta4, motorstorm 2, ratchet and clank, gt5 prolouge, gt5 (actually 2 gt5's obe broke on him), killzone 3 all those around rounded to 50 bucks a piece x9) logitech g27= $335, about 3 audio out and in cables $15 a piece, look up my account i have pictures

 

[Vaxxtx]

I get what you are saying completely, no the ai isnt terrible... But its quite far from great also... Quite possibly the furthest.

The only GREAT thing gt has to offer is fun online with friends, a somewhat realistic phsyics engine and cars "natural" beauty without liveries and stickers/sponsers...

Can you show me one instance of not terrible AI in GT5? They are on rails and weigh 30 tons. How is that not terribad?

Natural beauty is fine I guess, but just because GT5 doesnt have any customization options, dont act like its a "great" thing. It is in fact, a rather lame thing. 8 cars online on a track that look the same...wow...exciting. Cant even make custom paint/vinyls for car teams. And I love racing with the AI with 3 Minlota Race cars...or 2 #24 stock cars.

 

[bullet360]

Can you show me one instance of not terrible AI in GT5? They are on rails and weigh 30 tons. How is that not terribad?

Natural beauty is fine I guess, but just because GT5 doesnt have any customization options, dont act like its a "great" thing. It is in fact, a rather lame thing. 8 cars online on a track that look the same...wow...exciting. Cant even make custom paint/vinyls for car teams. And I love racing with the AI with 3 Minlota Race cars...or 2 #24 stock cars.

Uhh thats forza buddy, arcade ran with 12 cars in a-spec and arcade, then in arcade it went up to 16 after patch 1.whatever... Thats one of the main reasons why kaz has not implemented a customization system into the gt series, he actually races cars professionally and respects them enough to keep their natural "true beauty". He despises the fact of adding damage to a 458 italia let alone adding "stickers" to it, but he has had that mindset since gt2, and that was in what 98? And the only cars that look the same are when you are doing the license tests when all the cars are painted grey/black/white or whatever, or in an online lobby with doubled up super gt/dtm cars... And re-read my message, i never said gt5 ai was anything special... Quote on quote !
"no the ai isnt that great, in fact it couldnt be any further away" to me that is not praising the ai... Please fanboy before you make pointless remarks to my post atleast re-read or read it thouroughly enough to make a standing point, that way you aren't wasting my time and yours

And please tell me where i was "acting" like true beauty is the ultimate version of driving a car?

 

[JDMKING13]

Oh ya, try a 48" samsung plasma, logitech g27 idunno how many hz... And a racing seat with a 12" sub in the back with 5 tweeters,
my bestfriend spent like $2000 on equipment... Ps3 250gb=$355, 4 controllers at about $50 a piece, a 48" plasma from his dad an easy $500, (nhl10, nhl11, gta4, motorstorm 2, ratchet and clank, gt5 prolouge, gt5 (actually 2 gt5's obe broke on him), killzone 3 all those around rounded to 50 bucks a piece x9) logitech g27= $335, about 3 audio out and in cables $15 a piece, look up my account i have pictures

Well not to brag but I have 2PS3 2Xbox (one old one new with the knect) a Samsung 52 inch 240hz G25 Fanatec DFGT custom cockpit 6 DS3 Samsung 7.1 surround run with 4 monster HDMI GT5P GT5 and FM3 waiting for 4. And I pay my own mortgage.