FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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SlipZtrEm
I thought I'd bring this up here, as a different subject that's been brought up recently with the DBR1 image, and this one:

WIR_Lotus_8_19_11.jpg


Specifically - Photomode stuff! This isn't about the physics, or how Photomode is "fluff"; I love my racing games for the, y'know, racing, but a lot of us have fun with Photomode in GT5, and I'm certainly curious as to how the two games contrast and compare in this regard.

A few people mentioned how the DBR1 looked like a GT5 shot... and taking into account the improved lighting, and the motion-blur, it really does, which is impressive, as FM3's Photomode, while great, was hit-and-miss due to the lighting letting the rest of the package down. It's nice to see such great strides made by T10 in a relatively short time.

As for that Lotus - bloom! A frustrating bit in GT's Photomode is that bloom is in the game, but only in conjunction with the Warm or Cool filters. Want normal lighting? No fancy lighting bloom for you! It's another example of the sometimes odd choices from PD, where you expect consistency and are met with none.

What I'm curious about is how easy we'll have access to our images in regards to exporting; GT4 was the golden standard for me, letting you save straight to USB very quickly. With GT5, I do understand the reasoning behind saving first in GT5, then having to export to XMB, then to USB; times have changed, we use our consoles for far more, and having the images in-game benefits the community features. But from what I've read, XBL was required to have any decent access to images in FM3. I've never had the chance to test this, as the limited time I've spent with FM3 (about a month now, all told) has been on a borrowed 360.

Thought I'd crack open the discussion on the graphics, not so much on the hard empirical stuff, like hardware limitations, but on the features in-game that rely heavily on them (I assume images will be possible in AutoVista, for example). I'm much less concerned about the physics when I hear good things like Luminis' review, anyways ;)
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One of FM3's biggest faults was the way you had to export your photos, a hassle and it totally ruined the quality. I'm not sure if this was a design decision or a requirement of the console itself. I would hope that direct export would be possible in 4 but I would not be surprised if the same system is employed as before. Auto vista shots really intrigue me, I hope it's a possibility. If so I can't wait to see what some of the excellent snappers come up with.
 
It's a fault in the console I believe, You cannot save pictures to the console itself, if you have noticed by trying to view pics from a USB source.
 
PzR Slim
One of FM3's biggest faults was the way you had to export your photos, a hassle and it totally ruined the quality.
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Admittedly, it is a hassle in GT5 too, maybe even more so. Whoever thought of the whole GT5 -> XMB -> USB mess was clearly on crack.

But at least quality is there, which is the most important. But man, having to leave a game which has a 2m startup sequence is a friggin' chore. I mean, you had to plan ahead your exports when there was no logical reason to do so.
 
HBK
Admittedly, it is a hassle in GT5 too, maybe even more so. Whoever thought of the whole GT5 -> XMB -> USB mess was clearly on crack.

But at least quality is there, which is the most important. But man, having to leave a game which has a 2m startup sequence is a friggin' chore. I mean, you had to plan ahead your exports when there was no logical reason to do so.
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Totally agree but for me quality is all important. I'd put up with a clunky export sequence if I was guaranteed high quality images. Ideally though a smooth export system with high quality images would be the ideal.
 
I found FM3's way of handling the pictures you took okay - if it wasn't for the silly compression issues, which made even the best of pictures look horrible.

If T10 just allows me to chose the resultion I want and upload it to FM.net without compression, that'll be pretty much all I'd be asking for. Of course, getting them down from FM.net could be a bit easier, as well. Should they manage to allow us to use FM.net as an image hoster would really make thingss very comfortable, at least as far as unedited shots go. That would, in fact, make it quite awesome.

But really, all I'm asking for is that they remove the compression issues.

GT5? Well, it was a bit of a hassle, but at least you didn't have to be online or deal with problematic quality.
 
I'll carry on the discussion that is happening on the 18 Minute Gamescom FM4 video thread.

I think it will be interesting to see how well FM4 sells. It might do worse than FM3 or a lot better. The trend of Shift 2 and TDU2 in sales may continue with FM4 and other car games. The 360 getting more reliable could also reduce sales for the American market or even out the difference with the added ALMS license.

Turn 10's only shortfall for Microsoft at the moment is lack of sales numbers and when the development studio got first set-up, it might have been their target to overcome the GT series in that department. GT series still remains the best selling exclusive title on the PlayStation platform.

T10 also are a big development team, almost the size of PD, Santa Monica Studios and Naughty Dog put together so they should have some expectations to be a success commercially. I like the fact that T10 have so many people working on the game as that should make PD expand and we get even more better value for money as gamers. PD are already relocating maybe with the idea to expand.
 
They could remove compression issues in a heartbeat if they used PNG like any sane company would and not horribly restrictive JPEG settings.
 
I think FM4 will outsell FM3 quite easily, what with the autovista, rivals stuff and top gear content, very handy for advertising.

Shift 2 sold a lot better than people think. There are other posts from the devs stating as much too.

How does the 360 getting more reliable reduce sales of a game? Doing things like this will always keep the console selling anyway.

I'd only be guessing, but I would think Uncharted 2 has outsold GT5?
 
saidur_ali
Turn 10's only shortfall for Microsoft at the moment is lack of sales numbers
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Uhm, what? I can only go by Wikipedia here, but FM3 sold more than five million copies. For a game that only spent two years in development, that is huge.

Also, FM's sales increased with every single release (1.5 million with FM1, 3.5 million with FM2 and 5 million with FM3).
If you're combining the sales on the 360, FM isn't that far behind GT. Should FM4 sell as well as FM3 did (or better, even), the franchise will outsell GT, which sold a rough 11 million copies in total on the PS3. At least until GT6 six hits, but by that time, we'll probably have to take the sales of FM5 into account too and whatnot.

So, I can't see T10 falling short with their sales number, at all. In fact, FM seems like a highly succesful franchise.

I don't really know where this idea that FM doesn't sell well comes from. Plus, there's always DLC to take into account - which seems to be a decent cash cow, too, or they wouldn't bring it back for FM4.
 
Luminis
It is a Youtube video from an internet stream, after all. In motion, out on the track, FM4 > GT5. If only because there are no inconsistencies that spoil the overall experience.
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Lets judge when full version comes out and I see it on TV and someone does a proper VS comparison 👍

Also seems FM4 does have better track graphics, but when it comes to some CITY locations in GT5, they look just as good as FM4 enviroments. Seems a lot of Tracks are flat in GT5 but city tracks look almost like real.
 
NoxNoctis Umbra
Lets judge when full version comes out and I see it on TV and someone does a proper VS comparison 👍

Also seems FM4 does have better track graphics, but when it comes to some CITY locations in GT5, they look just as good as FM4 enviroments. Seems a lot of Tracks are flat in GT5 but city tracks look almost like real.
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After seeing the game myself, it's hard to not judge this issue. As I said, if only because there's no screen tearing or flickering shadows. Sure, the car models of (most of) the premium cars still look better. And GT5's Photo Travel probably does, too. And that's about it.

Of course, if you're able to overlook the tearing, flickering shadows and blocky smoke, than I could see someone liking GT5 better. I can hardly imagine that someone could just ignore these things just like that, though.

On the proper conparison bit: I'd be willing to bet that we'll get at least one biased comparison for every decent one. There are a lot of butts going to be hurt when FM4 releases and I kinda feel like it is going to show.
 
NoxNoctis Umbra
Lets judge when full version comes out and I see it on TV and someone does a proper VS comparison 👍

Also seems FM4 does have better track graphics, but when it comes to some CITY locations in GT5, they look just as good as FM4 enviroments. Seems a lot of Tracks are flat in GT5 but city tracks look almost like real.
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Here is a pretty good GT5 /Forza 4 replay comparison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2AQ0MTEdiU
 
That's not good, that's ridiculous.
If he had at least used a stock Subaru on Eiger for the GT5 footage...
Off-screen is stupid anyway.
 
Let's hope Digital Foundry does a nice Lens of Thruth head to head comparison between both games.

There should be no reason to complain about that comparison.
 
Luminis
It is a Youtube video from an internet stream, after all. In motion, out on the track, FM4 > GT5. If only because there are no inconsistencies that spoil the overall experience.
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I'm going to be honest & say I agree with him.

The reason it probably looked good to you (& in the video above) is because the track was the Alps, a brand new circuit to the series that has constantly been used by the team to showcase their improvements.
The video showing the C6R though, was Road America, a track from FM3.

Now, considering the fact that when you put some of the FM3 models against the FM4 ones (say, the F50 vs. the F1 or 599 GTO) & how noticeable the difference is between the models (mainly due to the FM3 models being re-polished carry-overs), I wouldn't put it past T10 to apply the same technique to the tracks.

And judging by the video, that's what they did. The Road America track will no doubt look better than in FM3, but it certainly doesn't appear to be anywhere as graphically pretty as the Alps, just like the F50 isn't as well detailed overall next to the 599 GTO. I'm not holding it against T10 as a con, but let's be real & not attempt to throw out the "It's a YouTube video" line. The Road America track wasn't modeled anywhere near to the same level of the Alps & so far, only that track has really been said to reach the same level of eye candy as GT5.
 
Well, I've got to agree that the track doesn't look nearly as good as the Bernese Alps, which are, of course, a splendid trakc to showcase the new IBL system. Porting older trakcs over and reworking them slightly is what I'm expecting on most of the tracks, to be quitet honest.

However, I felt like a lot of the tracks in GT5 looked pretty, well, not-so-eye-candy-ish all by themselves. Of course, the Nordschleife is insanely well done, probably much like the Bernese Alps in FM4. Overall, though, I found that there were just as many tracks that didn't look any better than what we had in FM3. Tsukuba, for example. I like FM3's version of the track better than GT5's.

If all tracks are just slightly impoved, that, alongside the IBL, and I'll say that I'M still fairly confidend when I say that I think that FM4 looks a tad better overall - mostly due to the consistent graphics that don't suffer from something that stands out like a sore thunb, as mentioned above.
 
Luminis
However, I felt like a lot of the tracks in GT5 looked pretty, well, not-so-eye-candy-ish all by themselves. Of course, the Nordschleife is insanely well done, probably much like the Bernese Alps in FM4. Overall, though, I found that there were just as many tracks that didn't look any better than what we had in FM3. Tsukuba, for example. I like FM3's version of the track better than GT5's.
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Oh, I agree as well as I'm sure PD's route for several previous tracks being placed into GT5 will be like FM3's to FM4.
If all tracks are just slightly impoved, that, alongside the IBL, and I'll say that I'M still fairly confidend when I say that I think that FM4 looks a tad better overall - mostly due to the consistent graphics that don't suffer from something that stands out like a sore thunb, as mentioned above.
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It's hard for me to say. Graphically, the GT5's tracks look much more realistic, but there are a few that miss out on some details that T10 take into account that make the track look much more authentic.
 
Can any Fanatec wheel users chime in on the differences between GT5 and F3?

I've been a little let down by GT5 and am thinking of making the switch to Forza 4. This would involved selling my fanatec GT3RS wheel and getting the GT2 + xbox.

Before I incur the expense, I'd like to know how the steering feel between the two games compares. What I loved most about GT5 is that the steering and force feedback feels amazing. I track my own car occasionally and I'm really surprised how similar GT5 can feel with the fanatec wheel.

Will I totally miss out on the steering feel in Forza, or is it comparable?
 
McLaren
It's hard for me to say. Graphically, the GT5's tracks look much more realistic, but there are a few that miss out on some details that T10 take into account that make the track look much more authentic.
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I think it's really down to the track... GT5's Fuji, and Tsukuba, for example, look so new and shiney that they seem quite off to me. They don't have anywhere near the gritty look a racetrack should have. GT5's Laguna Seca looks plain dull and dead to me.

For other tracks, it's vice versa, though. Personally, I wouldn't know which game to favor if we're strictly talking tracks only.
 
slipp3h
Can any Fanatec wheel users chime in on the differences between GT5 and F3?

I've been a little let down by GT5 and am thinking of making the switch to Forza 4. This would involved selling my fanatec GT3RS wheel and getting the GT2 + xbox.

Before I incur the expense, I'd like to know how the steering feel between the two games compares. What I loved most about GT5 is that the steering and force feedback feels amazing. I track my own car occasionally and I'm really surprised how similar GT5 can feel with the fanatec wheel.

Will I totally miss out on the steering feel in Forza, or is it comparable?
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I have a GT2, both systems, and GT5 and FM3. FM3 is a little bit light on the FFB, but it's far from unusable. In fact, I prefer the driving feel to FM3 than GT5. In fact, if you tinker with the Fanatec settings, you can get FM3 to feel really really good. There's two reason why I prefer the driving of FM3 to GT5: One is that FM3 uses Clutch + H-gate shifter quite well, while GT5 you have to do everything perfectly, therefore it's not that fluid. Second is that GT5 is way too jittery for my liking, and you have to dial in some artificial dead zone on the wheel. It's annoying. FM3 is extremely smooth on the wheel, and I think you're missing out horribly if you don't at least try it. All of this is my opinion, therefore you are free to ignore it.

Edit - Regarding what I said in bold - Before I get yelled at about "Well, you have to do everything perfectly in GT5, because it's the real driving simulator, so it's being real." Yes, it's good to be perfect with your shifts, but I don't want to be in a middle of a heated race, and I happen to not shift perfectly, I don't want my transmission to revert to neutral every time I slightly mis-shift. It's annoying, stupid, and wrong.
 
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slipp3h
Can any Fanatec wheel users chime in on the differences between GT5 and F3?

I've been a little let down by GT5 and am thinking of making the switch to Forza 4. This would involved selling my fanatec GT3RS wheel and getting the GT2 + xbox.

Before I incur the expense, I'd like to know how the steering feel between the two games compares. What I loved most about GT5 is that the steering and force feedback feels amazing. I track my own car occasionally and I'm really surprised how similar GT5 can feel with the fanatec wheel.

Will I totally miss out on the steering feel in Forza, or is it comparable?
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Pakt Sardine
I have a GT2, both systems, and GT5 and FM3. FM3 is a little bit light on the FFB, but it's far from unusable. In fact, I prefer the driving feel to FM3 than GT5. In fact, if you tinker with the Fanatec settings, you can get FM3 to feel really really good. There's two reason why I prefer the driving of FM3 to GT5: One is that FM3 uses Clutch + H-gate shifter quite well, while GT5 you have to do everything perfectly, therefore it's not that fluid. Second is that GT5 is way too jittery for my liking, and you have to dial in some artificial dead zone on the wheel. It's annoying. FM3 is extremely smooth on the wheel, and I think you're missing out horribly if you don't at least try it. All of this is my opinion, therefore you are free to ignore it.

Edit - Regarding what I said in bold - Before I get yelled at about "Well, you have to do everything perfectly in GT5, because it's the real driving simulator, so it's being real." Yes, it's good to be perfect with your shifts, but I don't want to be in a middle of a heated race, and I happen to not shift perfectly, I don't want my transmission to revert to neutral every time I slightly mis-shift. It's annoying, stupid, and wrong.
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I can yell right back at them. Shifting in GT5 is NO WAY near real life. I've driven quite a few sticks in my life and not ONE was anywhere near what GT5 portrays. Meanwhile FM3 is extremely closer to the real thing than GT5 can ever wish to be. I say this with some anger because just messing around with GT5's stupid clutch implementation put needless wear on my 6-speed shifter. FM3 is very smooth and lifelike. Sure you won't stall your car in the middle of the road or anything where you'd have to restart it (neither game does that by the way) but aside from that it's as life like as I've ever played.

GT5's implementation of the stick is as half assed as the standard/premium thing. Too me it's THAT bad. And what gets me is how people could even defend that garbage. I really think these guys haven't driven a stick, scratch that, a car in their lives.

Now slipp3h you asked about the steering. As Pakt has said you're gonna want to tweak some settings and you'll have quite a range of them between the Fanatec wheel itself and the game. One thing you'll get is nice effects aside from the main force feedback. Remember that the 360 compatible wheels from Fanatec (and the original 360 wheel) come with 3 motors. 2 of those motor's sole responsibility is things like rumble and engine vibration. You will feel things you've NEVER felt with the PS3 since no wheel made for it has these motors for these particular duties.
 
Pakt Sardine
I have a GT2, both systems, and GT5 and FM3. FM3 is a little bit light on the FFB, but it's far from unusable. In fact, I prefer the driving feel to FM3 than GT5. In fact, if you tinker with the Fanatec settings, you can get FM3 to feel really really good. There's two reason why I prefer the driving of FM3 to GT5: One is that FM3 uses Clutch + H-gate shifter quite well, while GT5 you have to do everything perfectly, therefore it's not that fluid. Second is that GT5 is way too jittery for my liking, and you have to dial in some artificial dead zone on the wheel. It's annoying. FM3 is extremely smooth on the wheel, and I think you're missing out horribly if you don't at least try it. All of this is my opinion, therefore you are free to ignore it.

Edit - Regarding what I said in bold - Before I get yelled at about "Well, you have to do everything perfectly in GT5, because it's the real driving simulator, so it's being real." Yes, it's good to be perfect with your shifts, but I don't want to be in a middle of a heated race, and I happen to not shift perfectly, I don't want my transmission to revert to neutral every time I slightly mis-shift. It's annoying, stupid, and wrong.
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I agree with most of this. The feeling of the H-gate is much more natural in FM3. Less like switches being activated, more like a mechanical device (a bit forgiving though). Also the clutch feels fully analog, in GT its more like clutch engaged/clutch disengaged. Understeering feedback is also better implemented. You really feel the steering wheel gradualy getting looser as understeer is building at turn entry or exit.

That said, GT5 have stronger force feedback that makes you feel the weight transfer much, much better than FM3. Like when you hit a bump in an off-camber turn, the wheel really transmit the right movement, its absolutely awesome. But you already experienced that with your GT3rs, its just for comparison...:)
 
slipp3h
Can any Fanatec wheel users chime in on the differences between GT5 and F3?

I've been a little let down by GT5 and am thinking of making the switch to Forza 4. This would involved selling my fanatec GT3RS wheel and getting the GT2 + xbox.

Before I incur the expense, I'd like to know how the steering feel between the two games compares. What I loved most about GT5 is that the steering and force feedback feels amazing. I track my own car occasionally and I'm really surprised how similar GT5 can feel with the fanatec wheel.

Will I totally miss out on the steering feel in Forza, or is it comparable?
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FM3 with a Fanatec is really good. I actually prefer it to GT5. It's definitely a little lighter but there seems to be more detail. Especially from the front end of the car. Take a fwd car as an example I find it much easier to tell when the front end is losing grip when modulating the throttle whilst still turning. You definitely won't be dissapointed.
 
Luminis
Uhm, what? I can only go by Wikipedia here, but FM3 sold more than five million copies. For a game that only spent two years in development, that is huge.

Also, FM's sales increased with every single release (1.5 million with FM1, 3.5 million with FM2 and 5 million with FM3).
If you're combining the sales on the 360, FM isn't that far behind GT. Should FM4 sell as well as FM3 did (or better, even), the franchise will outsell GT, which sold a rough 11 million copies in total on the PS3. At least until GT6 six hits, but by that time, we'll probably have to take the sales of FM5 into account too and whatnot.

So, I can't see T10 falling short with their sales number, at all. In fact, FM seems like a highly succesful franchise.

I don't really know where this idea that FM doesn't sell well comes from. Plus, there's always DLC to take into account - which seems to be a decent cash cow, too, or they wouldn't bring it back for FM4.
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Currently overall FM sales are not close to GT sales at all, either for a single title or the series as a whole. In this generation it stands at around 8.5 million (FM) and 11.5 million (GT), however you are right that FM4 will sell and sell well (certainly the 3 million gap is more than achievable). However the GT figures will certainly not remain static, so its an interesting one.


Gran Tusimso (In 100k)
Gran Turismo - 10,850
Gran Turismo 2 - 9,370
Gran Turismo 3 A-spec - 14,890
Gran Turismo Concept - 1,560
Gran Turismo 4 “Prologue” - 1,400
Gran Turismo 4 - 11,190
Gran Turismo 5 “Prologue” - 5,200
Gran Turismo PSP - 2,320
Gran Turismo 5 - 6,370
Total - 63,150
Source - http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/list.html

Forza Motorsport (in 100k)
Forza - 1,500
FM2 - 3,500
FM3 - 5,000
Total - 9,500


Forza does sell well for a racing title, no doubt about that at all, however GT sells in pretty much unprecedented levels for a racing title, as such T10 and MS have little to worry about in that regard.

It is unfortunate for Forza that it doesn't have the sales volume that GT does (and do not interpret this as me as talking about anything but sales figures - volume =/= quality), however those sales figures are growing title by title. Which will sell more on the current generation of consoles is a far from run race right now, but it will be an interesting one to watch.


Scaff
 

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