FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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OGL
Please consider that in Forza now there are actually 31 cars rendered at once as the reflections on the hood show everything. Actually, that as well goes to environment.
GT 5 doesn't even have a good cubic map - the reflections are just horrible and just as blocky as the smoke.
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Forza games(included FM4) only have real time reflections on the player car. Try to follow some cars in FM3 and pass under a bridge then compare your car reflections with the other AI cars. That also can be clearly seen in the Dan's FM4 presentation vid when he rotates the camera to show the new car shaders.

About the hood reflection is a trick not another expensive rendering, was used in PGR4 too and only saves the player game screen and map as a texture in the roof. You can't see other car reflections in the replays or exterior camera during gameplay for that reason.

The smoke in GT5 is the most advanced in any racing game, volumetric rendered by tire heat parameters and not a predefined texture effect, also has self shadow and is affected volumetrically by the light sources. The only problem is when a polygon intersects inside the smoke volume and need to be rendered in a lower resolution for performance reasons, but that effect is future proof for next hardware. Instead in FM4 is still the old effect used in a lot of games before and older consoles(psx), with no interactivity with the lighting or rendered in a realistic form. The smoke volume is also much lower an stay less time(less cpu cycles/memory).


JJ72
And lets not start on the framerate and tearing issues.
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You people live so much in 2010, framerate and tearing is now a lot better with the updates than was at the launch date. I don't know if you only repeat what you readed before or really play the game.


About the Forza spectators:

2zz4uav98rn.jpg
 
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Zer0
The smoke in GT5 is the most advanced in any racing game, volumetric rendered by tire heat parameters and not a predefined texture effect, also has self shadow and is affected volumetricaly by the light sources. The only problem is when a polygon intersects inside the smoke volume and need to be rendered in a lower resolution for performance reasons, but that effect is future proof for next hardware. Instead FM4 is still the old effect used in a lot of games before and older consoles(psx), with no interactivity with the lighting or rendered in a realistic form, the smoke volume is also much lower an stay less time(less cpu cycles/memory).
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That's all good and well but I know which looks better ;)
 
PzR Slim
I'm fairly sure you know what I'm referring to ;)
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OGL put the low res glitch in the smoke as a proof of low performance regarding GT5, when that effect is miles away more compute-intensive than any FM smoke effect to date.

Regarding the look is a glitch most of the time not happens and the new smoke works to enhace the graphics and gameplay. I don't know why someone would prefer a very basic or absent effect only to not see some temporary blockiness.

Rain clouds is another example on how important is that effect in a sim:

[youtubehd]PbZENqwr-cY[/youtubehd]

Not even PC sims went to that extent.
 
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Zer0
OCG put the low res glitch in the smoke as a proof of low performance regarding GT5, when that effect is miles away more compute-intensive than any FM smoke effect to date.

Regarding the look is a glitch most of the time not happens and the new smoke works to enhace the graphics and gameplay. I don't know why someone would prefer a very basic or absent effect only to not see some temporary blockiness.

Rain clouds is another example on how important is that effect in a sim:

[youtubehd]PbZENqwr-cY[/youtubehd]

Not even PC sims went to that extent.
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I don't wish to argue with you as it's all opinion at the end of the day. However, I'll end my part in this bit of the debate by saying I would much prefer a good consistent effect than an effect that sometimes looks great but sometimes looks embarrassing.
 
Yes, the smoke in Gt5 is tremendously good , but for me isn't an essential affair , i'm not a drifter, but i can understand that many people love it. ,


For example I prefer a better motor sound (bad in Gt5 👎 )



And one question for the last video (Minis + rain), in Gt5 you have the climatological changes , but in Forza you have these cars and his all customization.




What you prefer ?
 
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Most of the cons in GT5 are graphical if you think about it.

Smoke causing bad frame rate, too many cars causing bad frame rate, weather causing bad frame rate, and standard PS2 cars ported.

Am I missing something?
 
Evian
And one question for the last video (Minis + rain), in Gt5 you have the climatological changes , but in Forza you have these cars and his all customization.




What you prefer ?
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In GT5 you can also tune a mini to a race spec and adjust it to match the real car performance. You mean about matching the external look?

I obviously prefer the possibility to play all the cars in a different simulated environment than toying with the external look of them.


HELLAFLUSH240SX
Most of the cons in GT5 are graphical if you think about it.

Smoke causing bad frame rate, too many cars causing bad frame rate, weather causing bad frame rate, and standard PS2 cars ported.

Am I missing something?
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Some updates I guess. I don't know what you understand for bad framerate, with the last update is better than ever and even FM3 have hicups when you stress too much the game like having many cars involved in collisions or crashes. No one knows how would be in FM4 with 12-16 cars.
 
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Oh I see, the majority of the bashing come from the launch date and some people still keep repeating the same outdated claims. And yes if the game was graphically perfect most of the bashing would be non existent.

There are still some points to be addressed in gameplay/options but the game keep evolving to a better.
 
Sorry, but the smoke in GT5 doesn't look realistic at all, there's just a lot of it. It may be more modeled in depth, however look at a video of something like NFS pro-street... That is smoke, in a far more inferior game.

That video of the Mercedes in GT5, well, the smoke just appears from the rear of the car, it never gets involved with the wheels, which are causing a huge amount of air turbulence around the back end. Probably because GT5 doesn't really seem to model much in the way of aerodynamics IMO... It may be 'accurately' modeled, but it's accurately modeled incorrectly, and it's blocky and looks horrid anyway.

Forza smoke is perhaps the worst of all of them for smoke though. Just there are far better games for a yard stick than GT5, which IMO pulls up short on the majority of categories it can be judged by when compared to other games. Not admitting this makes people look like blinkered fan boys.
 
You know, the fact we've been reduced to arguing which game has better smoke really does say something about how far racing games in general have came since the Pole Position days.

Saying that, both GT5 and FM3 leave plenty to be desired in the smoke department.
 
430_Riviera
Sorry, but the smoke in GT5 doesn't look realistic at all, there's just a lot of it. It may be more modeled in depth, however look at a video of something like NFS pro-street... That is smoke, in a far more inferior game.

That video of the Mercedes in GT5, well, the smoke just appears from the rear of the car, it never gets involved with the wheels, which are causing a huge amount of air turbulence around the back end. Probably because GT5 doesn't really seem to model much in the way of aerodynamics IMO... It may be 'accurately' modeled, but it's accurately modeled incorrectly, and it's blocky and looks horrid anyway.

Forza smoke is perhaps the worst of all of them for smoke though. Just there are far better games for a yard stick than GT5, which IMO pulls up short on the majority of categories it can be judged by when compared to other games. Not admitting this makes people look like blinkered fan boys.
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Really need to produce some evidence and examples for those claims.


Justin
You know, the fact we've been reduced to arguing which game has better smoke really does say something about how far racing games in general have came since the Pole Position days.

Saying that, both GT5 and FM3 leave plenty to be desired in the smoke department.
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Couldn't agree more. If I had known back then we would have two franchises like GT and FM in the future I simply wouldn't have believed it.
 
Zer0
Oh I see, the majority of the bashing come from the launch date and some people still keep repeating the same outdated claims. And yes if the game was graphically perfect most of the bashing would be non existent.

There are still some points to be addressed in gameplay/options but the game keep evolving to a better.
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The graphics, even if you take only premiums, is the least of GT5 issues, IMO.

The fact that there is not a fun campaign is the biggest for me. The horrid sound also kills it. The lack of customization is silly. Driving a car with the plates that say what the car is just plain dumb looking. Going into a race with 3 cars all with the same liveries is also laughable. B-Spec...could have been good, but as it stands, its kind of dull. Paint chips. 1000+ cars and only 11 race modable. One of my FAVORITES...hitting a foam marker at Monza, and coming to a stop like you concerte. Hitting AI cars is like hitting a Mack Truck. AI that are totally on rails and have no reactions.

This list goes on an on, and graphics are at the bottom imo of course.

Oh and Shift2 does have the best look spectators, and Grid Girls.
 
GT5 smoke effects are absolutely horrible. Unless of course you like stacks of blocks.
 
Justin
I'm assuming you are just ignoring the insane amount of jaggies?
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Hmm the jaggies don't bother me so much and I do not get alot of jaggies anyway. Since the last update the game has been running8 smoother. The smoke looks good in my opinion. Im not so hardcore when it comes to judging video games like you guys. I understand its a game and it has limits. I just enjoy how thick the smoke is and how long it last.
 
430_Riviera
Sorry, but the smoke in GT5 doesn't look realistic at all, there's just a lot of it. It may be more modeled in depth, however look at a video of something like NFS pro-street... That is smoke, in a far more inferior game.

That video of the Mercedes in GT5, well, the smoke just appears from the rear of the car, it never gets involved with the wheels, which are causing a huge amount of air turbulence around the back end. Probably because GT5 doesn't really seem to model much in the way of aerodynamics IMO... It may be 'accurately' modeled, but it's accurately modeled incorrectly, and it's blocky and looks horrid anyway.

Forza smoke is perhaps the worst of all of them for smoke though. Just there are far better games for a yard stick than GT5, which IMO pulls up short on the majority of categories it can be judged by when compared to other games. Not admitting this makes people look like blinkered fan boys.
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I don't know what you see that much better in the NFS smoke to the point to bash the GT5 smoke, to me look very fake and seems an scripted effect like an on-off overdone spray, it has always the same consistency, have the same opacity and the light and shadows do not scatter realistically throught it.

[youtubehd]ydozioyQWTQ&hd=1[/youtubehd]

In comparisson..

[youtubehd]5hxeLws6bxA&hd=1[/youtubehd]..[youtubehd]HTJ2xXgwzf8&hd=1[/youtubehd]


About the: "the smoke just appears from the rear of the car, it never gets involved with the wheels" may be you need to check better. Jump directly to 2:27 and you can see how the heated tires get cold.

[youtubehd]guRVevQ8dDs&hd=1[/youtubehd]

About your fanboys comment check the op. Waiting for all those games with more realistic smoke than GT5..
 
Forza doesn't really deliver in terms of smoke - something I can live with, as I am no drifter. It's cool to see a smoke screen when someone's spun out in front of you, but that's not something I would consider essential.

That said, I don't like that GT5 creates a huge smoke screen the second your car starts to skid for half a second. The second half of this video should show what I mean. This doesn't happen from a standstill (in which case GT5 does a good job), but when the car starts to skid slightly while in motion - there's way too much smoke, in my opinion. If you're looking at stuff like this, I think it's fair to say that GT5 produces too much smoke (at least at low speeds).

Anyways, the amounts of ssmoke are probably very nice for drifter. Personally, I don't really care about it while driving. The only time I care about it is when I'm trying to take pictures - and the blocky smoke makes that, well, difficult to say the least.

Forza vs. GT... Well, in my opinion, neither does it right. Forza doesn't deliver much smoke at all, GT's smoke is appearently causing performance issues... So, I'd point to neither as a clear winner. I'd still rather have GT5's smoke, though.
 
GT5's the only game I've played where you can do donuts or drift and after you're done, the tires will smolder for a little bit.
 
Zer0
I guess is a thing of trading some graphics for gameplay, to me the pros are much better than the cons.
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When the sacrifice is framerate (and even worse, tearing), then No, in fact, Hell NO!!!

:D

Each to their own, and this is possibly why I don't have much respect for PD in terms of 'simulation', it's a good game, but due to their priorities, it is not a good simulation..
 

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