FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[ItsHim]

They didnt pull off a bloody good show. The pulled off a shoddy one. Very shoddy. Also I played it with the updates. They are un-noticable in most areas....especially the "damage".

So I take it you work for PD? You claim others dont know how it worked...so I guess you do right? Take your own advice.

I have enough professional experience to spot a groundless claim.

It's down to personal taste whether one prefers one franchise to another. And that's absolutely perfectly fine.

What isn't is telling only half of the story and filling the rest by profane and unprofessional assumptions.

All models are running the same physics engine - what has been sacrificed was the graphical representation with standard models. We're talking marketing here. The whole issue would resolve itself had GT shipped with the premiums and the standards had been released as a collectors or vintage dlc. This is all there is to it. Besides the premium feature 3d interiors on top of all the other features, and not some 2.5D canvas like 'cockpit' FM3 had to offer without any weather or night/day cycle and shift animations that had hastily been patched in because there was an outcry from the community.

What really gets me started is some average Joe barging in on the party and playing 'knows it all'. Sorry to spoil the party but it's not that simple. And it is part of every day business decisions that when you take a route, you either stay committed or miss the point if no return and fail. Never up - never in is the name of the game and you can't blame especially PD for pushing the limits. And getting away with it for the most part.

As usual I guess I'm just wasting my breath and time here because it's much simpler making groundless claims than proving them wrong.

 

[430_Riviera]

And getting away with it for the most part.

Nope. If they had, would you be trying to defend them at the moment?

All models are running the same physics engine

That's not necessarily true, at least you have no evidence they are. Don't pull someone up on groundless claims then make your own. We already know the On-line physics are different to the Off-line physics, to the point where you need two different tunes to compete seriously, whats to say the standards have the same depth to physics the premiums have?

 

[Spagetti69]

I'm sure there are premium and standard models of the same car in GT.
Do they drive the same? I would think so and would confirm the same calculations present.

Sounding a bit snobby here but I hardly ever drove a standard.

 

[cuco33]

But you're absolutely talking through your hat if you continue to claim there has been mismanagement at any level because....

There was clear as day can be mismanagement. The proof is GT5. Great game, faults throughout. We've heard it all before so I won't bring them up but to think there wasn't any mismanagement is a laugh. Like I've mentioned before, their core business is making games and if you see just the side projects they were on, including those mentioned on PD's own site, all while not increasing resources (either adding head count or outsourcing) is the definition of mismanagement.

 

[Vaxxtx]

I have enough professional experience to spot a groundless claim.

It's down to personal taste whether one prefers one franchise to another. And that's absolutely perfectly fine.

What isn't is telling only half of the story and filling the rest by profane and unprofessional assumptions.

All models are running the same physics engine - what has been sacrificed was the graphical representation with standard models. We're talking marketing here. The whole issue would resolve itself had GT shipped with the premiums and the standards had been released as a collectors or vintage dlc. This is all there is to it. Besides the premium feature 3d interiors on top of all the other features, and not some 2.5D canvas like 'cockpit' FM3 had to offer without any weather or night/day cycle and shift animations that had hastily been patched in because there was an outcry from the community.

What really gets me started is some average Joe barging in on the party and playing 'knows it all'. Sorry to spoil the party but it's not that simple. And it is part of every day business decisions that when you take a route, you either stay committed or miss the point if no return and fail. Never up - never in is the name of the game and you can't blame especially PD for pushing the limits. And getting away with it for the most part.

As usual I guess I'm just wasting my breath and time here because it's much simpler making groundless claims than proving them wrong.

You have yet to prove anything but your ability to make groundless claims. You probably need to re-read what I wrote eariler and then re-read what you wrote before you claim to be a know it all.

 

[cuco33]

They said all that was in FM3 (Remember back). It wasn't. So you'll have to understand why I'm still a bit skeptical ("We laser scaned the 'ring!".... yeah, and missed nearly every single bump :/)

On a more light-hearted note.

Forza fans are all boasting that the permanent steering aid can now be fully disabled....

Yet, they always swore blind that there never was a permanent steering aid

BOOM.

Someone just posted on here a link on his findings with that aid, and I saw it awhile ago because it wasn't the first time. It doesn't do what you think it does with a wheel.

One thing that I don't like in GT5 is the fact that damage really isn't there. I can aggressively engine brake going into corners by downshifting like mad without any affects to the car. Do this in Forza or in real life and you'll hurt the engine or drivetrain. I personally think this is a bigger issue than the minimal 'aid' with a wheel you want to send your BOOM out at


Oh and FYI, PC sims also need to be added to the list, along with real life, regarding importance of tire pressures. I HIGHLY DOUBT any real race team will let a car go on a track not knowing what the tire pressure is on all 4 corners.

 

[G.T.Ace]

That's not necessarily true, at least you have no evidence they are. Don't pull someone up on groundless claims then make your own. We already know the On-line physics are different to the Off-line physics, to the point where you need two different tunes to compete seriously, whats to say the standards have the same depth to physics the premiums have?

Because there are indeed cars which are available as Standard and Premium and there is no difference. Wouldn't make sense anyway.

 

[Tapey]

Five years. 80 million dollars. Mediocre result. Compared to a game that takes two years, comes with less inconsistencies and doesn't appear on said lists of expensive games.

I'd say that GT5 was managed excellently, and that as a company Polyphony Digital have done a very impressive job with everything that they have accomplished in the years between the release of GT4 and GT5. If we want to compare between PD and Turn 10 well then let's have a look at what each company managed to develop between the release of GT4 and GT5:

Polyphony Digital: Tourist Trophy, Gran Turismo 5 Prologue, GT PSP, GT5
Turn 10: Forza 2, Forza 3

In the same timeframe, Polyphony Digital managed to release four successful games for three different consoles. That's double the output of Turn 10 with a team that's less than half their size, nevermind that while Turn 10 have solely developed for one console, PD released games across three platforms, two of which were entirely new (and one of which is notoriously hard to develop for). By all acounts, it looks like Polyphony Digital are absolute gods at project management, especially when compared to Turn 10 whose output is quite pathetic in comparison.

Also, if you're going to reply to this by whining about the numbers of staff like in the post I'm quoting below, please try to think about the point I'm making first.

Again with PD's small amount of employees. Why is that even an excuse? They've had a huge budget. GT5 is one of the most expensive games ever. If PD have to few employees, it's entirely their fault for not hiring more employees instead of blowing the budget on whatever. This isn't a case of David vs. Goliath, with PD being David. It's just a prime example of horrible resource management.

Ok firstly, who said anything about excuses or this being some David vs. Goliath battle? Stop being so overly dramatic. He asked why they didn't make more premium cars and I answered him. Also really? They should have just hired more employees? Just like that? Look, you're a pretty smart guy and you have some reasonable points here and there, but you're just being downright silly when you say that.

 

[VXR]

Whose to say T10 couldn't have done the same (if they weren't 1st party of course) had they decided to concentrate on other games than their bread and butter? I reckon FM4 was being worked on at the same time as FM3 judging by the jump they have made.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

I believe T10 hires more people for a reason, we have a jobs crisis here in America and they recognize that the money they get from MS can be better spent on more employess working to make the game great, than spending it on Dan traveling the globe driving around random tracks and coming back giving "bad feel".

 

[Tapey]

Whose to say T10 couldn't have done the same (if they weren't 1st party of course) had they decided to concentrate on other games than their bread and butter?

You could say the exact same thing about PD though, it goes both ways

I believe T10 hires more people for a reason, we have a jobs crisis here in America and they recognize that the money they get from MS can be better spent...

Is that why Turn 10 hires so much cheap labour from Asian countries rather than pumping that money back into the American economy?

 

[cuco33]

By all acounts, it looks like Polyphony Digital are absolute gods at project management

L to the O to the L.

Sorry... I disagree as much as the word is even possible.

TT? GT4, add bikes instead of cars, tweak some stuff around.
GT5P? milk the fans by selling an overly glorified demo. If they took GT5P and added a lil bit more, you'd have GT5. And not the GT5 we got. We'd probably be drooling over a GT6 now to be honest.
GT PSP, I bought a launch PSP, the 1000 fat version, within a month or so from system's launch (bought it from a friend who bought his on launch day). A trailer was demoed at the PSP's launch, not the games! And the game was released on what, the 3rd revision of the PSP? lol

All while adding more projects, never outsourcing, and never expanding the team. Great project management there...

And before anyone jumps down my neck, I don't think T10 manages perfectly but they do so MUCH better than PD.

 

[Parker]

L to the O to the L.

Sorry... I disagree as much as the word is even possible.

TT? GT4, add bikes instead of cars, tweak some stuff around.
GT5P? milk the fans by selling an overly glorified demo. If they took GT5P and added a lil bit more, you'd have GT5. And not the GT5 we got. We'd probably be drooling over a GT6 now to be honest.
GT PSP, I bought a launch PSP, the 1000 fat version, within a month or so from system's launch (bought it from a friend who bought his on launch day). A trailer was demoed at the PSP's launch, not the games! And the game was released on what, the 3rd revision of the PSP? lol

All while adding more projects, never outsourcing, and never expanding the team. Great project management there...

I disagree there. GT5P has as much, or more content than many of the other console racers. Sure it wasn't up to the GT standard of content but to say it's a glorified demo is a little off base in my opinion. It easily had enough content to keep me occupied, and I easily got enough entertainment to justify the cost.


Parker

 

[cuco33]

I disagree there. GT5P has as much, or more content than many of the other console racers. Sure it wasn't up to the GT standard of content but to say it's a glorified demo is a little off base in my opinion. It easily had enough content to keep me occupied, and I easily got enough entertainment to justify the cost.


Parker

If they added a few more cars and tracks, add the older GT elements we grew accustomed to in a GT game, added additional features like online (GT5P had online, but if this was GT5 it'd be new to series), a proper damage system and launched it as a full fledged game and not this Prologue BS nonsense, it'd be our GT5 and we'd be now waiting on GT6. Instead GT5 launched with half assed features throughout the game. I think GT5P looks great as is, why call it prologue? Work a lil more on that and it's a full game! I still love GT5 but anyone's blind to think that there's nothing wrong with the game. Clear as day mismanagement happened. Had it not, 80% of cars wouldn't be ported, damage wouldn't be tacked on (and half assed), we wouldn't be getting mid series game saves 6+months after launch, etc etc etc. We've heard all the gripes before, no sense in bringing them up again.

Note, I am MASSIVELY against any notion of prologues. I didn't want Prologue games to come to the states, and it did. And with it's sales success, I fear we'll see a GT6P, instead of GT6. Vote with your wallets folks, don't buy prologues!

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

You could say the exact same thing about PD though, it goes both ways



Is that why Turn 10 hires so much cheap labour from Asian countries rather than pumping that money back into the American economy?

Proof?

 

[Tapey]

TT? GT4, add bikes instead of cars, tweak some stuff around.
GT5P? milk the fans by selling an overly glorified demo. If they took GT5P and added a lil bit more, you'd have GT5. And not the GT5 we got. We'd probably be drooling over a GT6 now to be honest.
GT PSP, I bought a launch PSP, the 1000 fat version, within a month or so from system's launch (bought it from a friend who bought his on launch day). A trailer was demoed at the PSP's launch, not the games! And the game was released on what, the 3rd revision of the PSP? lol

Ok I'm sorry but this is quite frankly laughable. Nothing you said there changes what's fact, and instead you just take goofy attempts at potshots at each game in an attempt to try and discredit the fact that PD have accomplished a hell of a lot.

I mean really, that's no different to somebody saying "Hurrr Forza 1.5, Forza 2.5!!". It's just idiotic and proves that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Proof?

Dan Greenawalt mentions outsourcing work to companies in Vietnam and India

Sound design work on Forza outsourced to UK sound design group

Of course, you could have just used Google.

 

[cuco33]

I think I know what I'm talking about since i'm not blinded by my own bias. I was once a true, diehard GT fanboy, like DIEHARD and then someone introduced me to PC sims way back in the day. That's when I put the koolaid to the side. Still love the games though. I don't do prologues for my own reasons, but waiting 5 years for a full fledged GT title and getting what we got... yeah, one of those. Most of my friends who got it don't even play it anymore and they probably got not even 30 cars in their stable.

Still doesn't change the fact that PD mismanaged the franchise. This is fact. Like I said, proof is in GT5 and it's faults, along with all the side projects (and I don't mean TT nor GT5P, but more so GTHD and all those demos, videos, HUD design, aerokit designs, prototype car designs, even Kaz fulfilling his dream to be a pro driver in the Nurb24) without outsourcing work nor increasing head count. That's mismanagement, when you mismanage the resources and neglecting your core business, making video games. GTHD disappeared. GT5P underwent 3 major patch updates. GT PSP doesn't even have a career mode. And then you have GT5. Again, great game but faults throughout.

 

[azrael1965]

even Kaz fulfilling his dream to be a pro driver in the Nurb24

Thanks god. That might be the reason why the GT Nordschleife is great and its Forza Counterpart just laughable. I hope FM4 will have a more accurate one, as i will still buy the game.

 

[Spagetti69]

Is that why Turn 10 hires so much cheap labour from Asian countries rather than pumping that money back into the American economy?

Nothing wrong with Asian work. PD seem to prefer it.

I suppose America might get some money back when the game sells. I would hope so.

 

[Tapey]

Still doesn't change the fact that PD mismanaged the franchise. Like I said, proof is in GT5 and it's faults, along with all the side projects (and I don't mean TT nor GT5P, but more so GTHD and all those demos, videos, HUD design, aerokit designs, prototype car designs, even Kaz fulfilling his dream to be a pro driver in the Nurb24) without outsourcing work nor increasing head count. That's mismanagement, when you mismanage the resources and neglecting your core business, making video games.

Actually it is not a fact that PD mismanaged the franchise, it is only your opinion. If you look at it from a business perspective and the fact that they released four very successful games that sold ridiculous amounts of copies (this isn't debateable I'm afraid) then they've managed their time and resources very well, especially compared to Turn 10 who have not managed to release as many games or achieve similar sales figures in the same timeframe.

Now if you didn't like GT5 and thought it was crap, that's your opinion and nothing can change it. If you try to state that PD mismanaged their resources however and neglected their core business, well there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that disagrees with your stance. I think the problem here is that because you didn't like GT5 you're trying to use your personal opinion on a videogame as some kind of justification for PD failing as a business when the numbers dictate otherwise. I think that's the main problem with certain peoples stances regarding this debate in general really, they're letting personal feelings interfere with looking at the situation objectively from the outside.

 

[Terronium-12]

Again, sales figures are irrelevant. They're irrelevant to any and every subject pertaining to this discussion and every similar discussion within this immediate (rather, the entire) forum space.

They're only relevant when the topic is explicitly about sales numbers. So, please, stop bringing figures up as if they mean anything.

 

[cuco33]

T10 launched their 1st game after GT4 was released. PD is the older company here. There was also no game like GT, ever, and is why GT became THE game to beat. Many tried, many failed. Forza is now here and is the only legitimate competition GT has ever had.

I don't think GT5 is crap. I think many of the half assed features in GT5 are crap. And PD did mismanage the franchise. Like I said you only need to look at the faults within GT5 and reality to see this. But I'll end it here because no matter what's said you'll never accept reality. You can put the GT logo on a pile of 3 week old dog crap and people will still buy it, that's the power of the GT brand. Hell at one point even I would have bought that! It's why Sony allowed PD so much time and so much funding to begin with. But hey, I'm sure we all are supposed to love the grinding, the cycling of cars in the UCD, the focus on paint chips and horns, a Top Gear track without a standing start, flickering shadows and tearing and the fact that 80% of cars were ported over, as just a few of many examples. Right... GT5 was managed properly. L to the O to the L...

 

[Spagetti69]

Not sure if Kaz has said he's the first one to be disappointed with GT5.
If he hasn't, he will before the next release.

Reason being is that he is his own biggest critic and I feel he would readily admit that.

I'm not knocking him, that's how I feel that he feels.

 

[Tapey]

Again, sales figures are irrelevant. They're irrelevant to any and every subject pertaining to this discussion and every similar discussion within this immediate (rather, the entire) forum space.

They're only relevant when the topic is explicitly about sales numbers. So, please, stop bringing figures up as if they mean anything.

Actually sales figures are very relevant to the dicussion that is taking place so please try to refrain from telling people what they can and can not talk about, that privilege is reserved solely for the moderators of this forum.

I don't think GT5 is crap. I think many of the half assed features in GT5 are crap. And PD did mismanage the franchise. Like I said you only need to look at the faults within GT5 and reality to see this. But I'll end it here because no matter what's said you'll never accept reality. You can put the GT logo on a pile of 3 week old dog crap and people will still buy it, that's the power of the GT brand. Hell at one point even I would have bought that! It's why Sony allowed PD so much time and so much funding to begin with. But hey, I'm sure we all are supposed to love the grinding, the cycling of cars in the UCD, the focus on paint chips and horns, a Top Gear track without a standing start, flickering shadows and tearing and the fact that 80% of cars were ported over, as just a few of many examples. Right... GT5 was managed properly. L to the O to the L...

On the contrary it seems to be you who cannot accept reality, there are cold hard facts that you're attempting to dispute with opinion. I suppose it is best that you end it here if your only rebuttal to factual information is "I don't like certain aspects of GT5". L to the O to the L indeed. Maybe try again once you learn the difference between fact and opinion?

 

[JDMKING13]

Actually sales figures are very relevant to the dicussion that is taking place so please try to refrain from telling people what they can and can not talk about, that privilege is reserved solely for the moderators of this forum.

On the contrary it seems to be you who cannot accept reality, there are cold hard facts that you're attempting to dispute with opinion. I suppose it is best that you end it here if your only rebuttal to factual information is "I don't like certain aspects of GT5". L to the O to the L indeed. Maybe try again once you learn the difference between fact and opinion?

Tapey I like where you are coming from you have some people who will say who cares about painting cars one of biggest part of FM but that's not right imo just because you don't like a feature doesn't mean its stupid or a failure. The UCD is awsome in my opinion, and GT5 being miss managed is kinda harsh. I just drove 11 Evos from the 3 to the 10 and even though most where standards it was a great experience. In the end both games are different but are great games. FM4 is looking good BTW.

 

[Terronium-12]

Actually sales figures are very relevant to the dicussion that is taking place so please try to refrain from telling people what they can and can not talk about, that privilege is reserved solely for the moderators of this forum.

How are sales figures relevant in any way other than exclaiming "GTx sold this much, compared to x amount of what Forza sold"?

And you might want to watch your own words as you're doing the exact thing you're criticizing me of doing.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Thats true, thats like saying a Toyota Corolla is better than a Ferrari F40 because the Corolla sold more.

 

[Terronium-12]

Thats true, thats like saying a Toyota Corolla is better than a Ferrari F40 because the Corolla sold more.

Exactly. That's the only reason people (especially here) ever reference sales numbers, because it's "obvious" that what has sold more is obviously the better product.

 

[Tapey]

How are sales figures relevant in any way other than exclaiming "GTx sold this much, compared to x amount of what Forza sold"?

Well considering that we were discussing Polyphony Digitals management of the Gran Turismo franchise in comparison to how Turn 10 handles the Forza Motorsport series, it should be incredibly obvious.

Thats true, thats like saying a Toyota Corolla is better than a Ferrari F40 because the Corolla sold more.

You might have a point if sales figures were being used as evidence as to why one franchise is better than the other, but since they're not Terronium-12 and yourself are just being silly and missing the point completely.

 

[Northstar]

Well considering that we were discussing Polyphony Digitals management of the Gran Turismo franchise in comparison to how Turn 10 handles the Forza Motorsport series, it should be incredibly obvious.

You might have a point if sales figures were being used as evidence as to why one franchise is better than the other, but since they're not Terronium-12 and yourself are just being silly and missing the point completely.

What they end up selling has nothing to do with how well they manage their time and money. GT is one of those titles like Call of Duty, FIFA, Madden or Need for Speed, they will sell insanely well regardless of the game quality.

Anyways, can we go back to smoke, at least there was an actual argument about that.