FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Da-Bomber]

GT5 just overwhelmed itself is all.

 

[Vaxxtx]

Hold on a minute, puffery is not opinion (unless i am massively wrong), Puffery is not only an exaggeration but something that is false or not true. Infact i just checked the definition and was greeted with this
puff·er·y
noun /ˈpəfərē/ 

Exaggerated or false praise
So either you have it wrong or i have it wrong.

Bolded:
In your original post you said:
Since you were replying to me it leads me to believe that you are indeed talking about the catchphrase, nowhere in the above quote did you mention anything concerning words writing on the back of the box.

Ediit: Am about to sleep so this conversation rests till another day.

Just FYI he was not giving you the definition of the word....re-read.

 

[Tornado]

Hold on a minute, puffery is not opinion (unless i am massively wrong), Puffery is not only an exaggeration but something that is false or not true. Infact i just checked the definition and was greeted with this
puff·er·y
noun /ˈpəfərē/ 

Exaggerated or false praise
So either you have it wrong or i have it wrong.

Praise is a form of opinion.


And it isn't necessarily false praise, either. Exaggerated or false. Not "and."

Bolded:
In your original post you said:
Since you were replying to me it leads me to beilive that you are indeed talking about the catchphrase, nowhere in the above quote did you mention anything concerning words writing on the back of the box.

The only thing I was referring to with that post was warning not to compare the puffery for the two games, because the only thing that discussion would do is cause ocalot2k5 to dig in even deeper than he already is.

 

[JDMKING13]

Even funnier is that in tha "list" he provided some features are easily comparable... Nascar? u have the license and the liveried cars... In FM3 there were stock cars, which, get this, the community replicated ALL Nascar liveries and even created some of their own... and better yet, they sold, many times you could get them for free, so you could use them all. GTTV, when was the last time they put something worth mentioning in that bad boy? Head tracking? in arcade mode only? More tracks? 100 variations against 70, and we are not even counting the DLC tracks.... DLC, you know that thing you didn't need and all of a sudden can't wait for? Better cockpits? out of the 200 30% were recycled from similar models?(Nascar guilty) Course Maker, great let's debate that useless 3-d...erm feature. Super GT? don't Forza have more models than you? Pits, you mean that waste of resources of watching 4 animatronic puppets refueling the air while you get passed? I concede the dynamic time/weather, ut those are only 2 of a very long list friend

1st there is nothing to compare they are different cars, I can understand what your saying with the liveries and the community, but in the end they still cant touch the GT5 Nascars, from the real driver gear to the real interior recreation. Reading your other arguments it seems to me you just put off everything else In a negative way.




These are the four "animatronic" people you where talking about? They look awesome in my opinion.

 

[KreepaEvox]

Now swap the car and put let's say a small Lotus in there, see what I mean?

And of course is not the same, that's the reason I said comparable, not same as or better than... It's not even the same car, as the new model was not in Forza, because, it's older than GT and not having the license didn't stop them from including the old stock cars in the game.

Im not being negative either, I'm just not glorifying half assed features

 

[MadmuppGT]

Your not serious are you? If you are than you completely missed the point of what people are getting at when they explain complete vs incomplete. PD coming out with a spec2.0 proves the game is incomplete. Forza would never do that because the game is already what they wanted it to be when it's released (minus a few small bugs that need fixing with any game)

I dont normally come on this thread because its just a fanboy war, I came to the forza threads to learn about more of the features because it is shaping up to be something cool, To be honest the only think I've seen that lets it down is the replay graphics (they look a little cartoony compared to the rest of the game >IN MY OPINION<)

But this quote is just pure tosh! Turn 10 would never release A spec 2.0 because its already a complete game? What about all the DLC thats advertised before the games ever released, Now I'm sorry if youre willing to suckle blindly at the Turn 10 and Mircosoft cash teat, But DLC should be something that theyve cooked up AFTER the games release that was created too late to put into the game when it was shipped... Having DLC stockpiled like Turn 10 are doing is not only wrong by purposely holding back content that could easily be put in the game (like PD actually did, No car packs there because KY wanted every car there ready and waiting for you)

While some might say this is just business, it stinks that Turn 10 are short changing the Forza fans, 500 cars could be easily 600 cars, but theyve decided hang on, we can make them pay for stuff they should already have.

So yes, while GT5 needed patched to fix problems, the A spec 2.0 and DLC are stuff theyve cooked up after the games release, not like in Turn 10s case where theyve taken Forza fans for mugs and actually held back/removed Cars and Tracks just to have some extra cash... The ugly side of what modern gaming has become.

*double post*

These are the four "animatronic" people you where talking about? They look awesome in my opinion.

I count 7 well modeled human characters, not bad for a CAR game! 👍

 

[Vaxxtx]

I dont normally come on this thread because its just a fanboy war, I came to the forza threads to learn about more of the features because it is shaping up to be something cool, To be honest the only think I've seen that lets it down is the replay graphics (they look a little cartoony compared to the rest of the game >IN MY OPINION<)

But this quote is just pure tosh! Turn 10 would never release A spec 2.0 because its already a complete game? What about all the DLC thats advertised before the games ever released, Now I'm sorry if youre willing to suckle blindly at the Turn 10 and Mircosoft cash teat, But DLC should be something that theyve cooked up AFTER the games release that was created too late to put into the game when it was shipped... Having DLC stockpiled like Turn 10 are doing is not only wrong by purposely holding back content that could easily be put in the game (like PD actually did, No car packs there because KY wanted every car there ready and waiting for you)

While some might say this is just business, it stinks that Turn 10 are short changing the Forza fans, 500 cars could be easily 600 cars, but theyve decided hang on, we can make them pay for stuff they should already have.

So yes, while GT5 needed patched to fix problems, the A spec 2.0 and DLC are stuff theyve cooked up after the games release, not like in Turn 10s case where theyve taken Forza fans for mugs and actually held back/removed Cars and Tracks just to have some extra cash... The ugly side of what modern gaming has become.

Then talk with Codemasters, EA, ... you know what just list about every dev/producer you can, and then you will see the big picture.

Having options to buy or not to buy additional content is a choice. Having features listed on a game box and then NOT having them isnt a choice. In fact its a total BS, sleezy thing. Having to fix bugs almost a year after release is pretty pathetic.

And tell Kaz thanks for the MX-5's, Civics, Skylines, and standards that were "waiting" for me. I am almost beside myself with joy.

Funny part about this post, I am betting 80-99% of people still playing GT5 would pay double for GT5 DLC.

 

[JDMKING13]

Now swap the car and put let's say a small Lotus in there, see what I mean?

And of course is not the same, that's the reason I said comparable, not same as or better than... It's not even the same car, as the new model was not in Forza, because, it's older than GT and not having the license didn't stop them from including the old stock cars in the game.

Im not being negative either, I'm just not glorifying half assed features

I don't get what your saying, and that why if you read my post I said they are not comparable.

 

[marchi]

Outsourcing does not even remotely mean lack of quality control. To imply that it does is a ridiculous false dichotomy.

When you outsource, you lose the ability to completely control the quality of the product you are receiving. Considering the great lengths that turn 10 have outsourced to reduce costs and some of the poorly modled interiors, I'd say if it were done in house, they'd be modeled to a higher standard.

Which carries the implication that there aren't cars in GT5 with similar problems.

Polyphony chose to go a different route in car modelling. They could waste their time upgrading old models, or they could start from scratch and not actually have to model parts ever again, only update textures... If It were me, I would have scrapped the standard models altogether and just have premiums. The game is a development game much like GT3 and GT1 were.

There are more silly statements in your combined double post, but I really don't want to bother pointing them out. I will simply say this: Your arguments would be a lot more valid if you didn't immediately resort to strawmen for each one.

Are you an idiot? This thread is FM vs GT. My argument would be invalid if it didn't compare the two.

Yes, its INcomplete if something is on the box but NOT in the game. How dense can you be? A car you buy that comes with 3 wheels, is also incomplete. So you see the trend?

Sorry but you tried to make some points, and it failed.

Funny, I seem to be able to customize every car in the game quite easily. There are also leader boards for events...

I can also put together a list of things Forza has that GT doesn't



Better car sounds Really, where? If anything, both games suffer from poor sounds.
Cockpits on ALL cars I'll grant you this, although some are very very poor.
No standard cars that are only up to par with the last gen of consoles.
Brand new game every 2 years Hardly brand new when most of Forza 3 will be ported to Forza 4. Thats like saying every Fifa is a brand new game when its clear to everyone that the game is the same as the previous Fifa just updated with new content. Which is how Forza 2, 3 and 4 are.
Mechanical damage
Already in GT5...
I could go on but thats just off the top of my head.

Edit: The sad thing is this is FM3. Don't even get me started on FM4.

 

[Tornado]

When you outsource, you lose the ability to completely control the quality of the product you are receiving.

Not true, and to assume that it is automatically true simply shows that you don't actually know what you are talking about.


There is quite a logical leap between "the models in Forza have errors" and "they have errors because they were outsourced" when there are dozens of little things between those two statements that you obviously haven't taken into account. There are Premium cars in GT5 that have pretty blatant errors, so by your same twisted logic that means that PD must have outsourced those ones.

Polyphony chose to go a different route in car modelling. They could waste their time upgrading old models, or they could start from scratch and not actually have to model parts ever again, only update textures... If It were me, I would have scrapped the standard models altogether and just have premiums. The game is a development game much like GT3 and GT1 were.

If the point was in Denver, you would be in Moscow. Try actually reading my post and your post that I was responding to before you make assumptions about what it was saying.

Are you an idiot?

Are you? I'm not the one who resorts to what are basically fabricated arguments to support my point, and the one who throws temper tantrums and resorts to personal attacks when people don't buy them.

This thread is FM vs GT. My argument would be invalid if it didn't compare the two.

Your argument isn't invalid because it compares to two. Your argument is invalid because it is made entirely out of straw and logic bombs.

Funny, I seem to be able to customize every car in the game quite easily. There are also leader boards for events...

Oooooohhhh. I get it now. You're one of them. Well, take care then. Have a nice day.

 

[MadmuppGT]

Then talk with Codemasters, EA, ... you know what just list about every dev/producer you can, and then you will see the big picture.

Having options to buy or not to buy additional content is a choice. Having features listed on a game box and then NOT having them isnt a choice. In fact its a total BS, sleezy thing. Having to fix bugs almost a year after release is pretty pathetic.

And tell Kaz thanks for the MX-5's, Civics, Skylines, and standards that were "waiting" for me. I am almost beside myself with joy.

Funny part about this post, I am betting 80-99% of people still playing GT5 would pay double for GT5 DLC.

The old lots of Japanese cars is a fair point, there is to many of the same car... Some of the standards look pretty damn good, while some of them look like total arse.

But if PD would have done like some devs and just said screw it and left the bugs in there then that would be a cause to complain... but actually working on it shows commitment and respect for the fans who bought the game.

As for the "buying additional content" You obviously missed my point that youre not buying Additional content, your buying stuff that should have been included since day 1 but youre/we are being taken for mugs and as for GT5 fans paying for the DLC I'm sure they would pay for DLC thats been worked on AFTER the games release, thus its proper old fashioned Additional content, not purposely removed content to score a few more bucks from you.

Dont be such a mug people!

 

[Terronium-12]

Funny, I seem to be able to customize every car in the game quite easily. There are also leader boards for events...

How does one even respond to this?

 

[Eric.]

I don't get what your saying, and that why if you read my post I said they are not comparable.

"Everyone, on three, we will lower the car down with our Jedi abilities...ONE...TWO..."

 

[marchi]

Not true, and to assume that it is automatically true simply shows that you don't actually know what you are talking about.

It's called common sense sunshine.

There is quite a logical leap between "the models in Forza have errors" and "they have errors because they were outsourced" when there are dozens of little things between those two statements that you obviously haven't taken into account. There are Premium cars in GT5 that have pretty blatant errors, so by your same twisted logic that means that PD must have outsourced those ones.

What haven't I taken into account? Forza outsource their modelling to reduce costs. Most of which 'as amar provides substancial sourcing for' are located in countries with reduced labour costs'. You know that saying 'you get what you pay for' well it's true, especially in this industry when it comes to production values.

If the point was in Denver, you would be in Moscow. Try actually reading my post and your post that I was responding to before you make assumptions about what it was saying.

I guess I should apologize for assuming that two different quotes, relate to different points. Of course, if I particularly cared for your hyperbole, I might take it to heart

Are you? I'm not the one who resorts to what are basically fabricated arguments to support my point, and the one who throws temper tantrums and resorts to personal attacks when people don't buy them.

This all coming from a poster who colour's his post to try and grab some arrogant e-moral high ground 'much like their posting style' to have one over their fellow posters. You tell me that I 'throw temper tantrums' when you're entire existence in this thread over the past few pages is simply to ridicule posters because their opinion differs from your own.

Your argument isn't invalid because it compares to two. Your argument is invalid because it is made entirely out of straw and logic bombs.

Common sense is a wonderful thing, you should get some.

Oooooohhhh. I get it now. You're one of them. Well, take care then. Have a nice day.

Here's me thinking that adding a turbo charger to a vehicle or modifying suspension isn't classified as a customisation. You and your bum buddy Terronium-12 are hilarious

 

[amar212]

Okey, here is the link that can put some things into perspective regarding some points raised.

Follow the link, and than click Super Special The Real Grand Tour gallery.

Speaking of dedication and so on. While in the other world some other "more dedicated" personas can't even make their shaders to look like a damn metal.

Of course, you're also free to click all other galleries made by Abraxas and his amazing Polish friends.

But nevermind, thank God for people with dedication of Polyphony Digital, I'd always take them in front of every other game/title/series/franchise in the whole genre.

 

[JDMKING13]

Okey, here is the link that can put some things into perspective regarding some points raised.

Follow the link, and than click Super Special The Real Grand Tour gallery.

Speaking of dedication and so on. While in the other world some other "more dedicated" personas can't even make their shaders to look like a damn metal.

Of course, you're also free to click all other galleries made by Abraxas and his amazing Polish friends.

But nevermind, thank God for people with dedication of Polyphony Digital, I'd always take them in front of every other game/title/series/franchise in the whole genre.

No doubt those pics are truly amazing. Really shows the passion of the PD team. My girl and brother was fooled and shocked when I showed them that pic, they could not believe how good GT5 looked. My bro said the GT5 version looked better in some cases. 👍

 

[JJ72]

i dont think the point that outsourcing inevitably produce inferior quality is fair. there are different level of studios that produces different quality of works, for different amount of course, it can range from 50 men studio to one guy working in his bedroom. but truth is even the leading ad agency will outsource their cg work and focus on what they does best - thought through the core product and focus on the creatives. And in turn10 perspective its the game design. it is a correct method towards product development, and as long as quality assurance is handled correctly it is the most efficient way for development. what we sed in gt is a team too caught up with certain details and forget about their main goal, that is to produce a good racing game. both team has something to learn from each other, turn 10 has to learn about being more fixated on details, while pd has to learn about when to stop chasing a certain detail for the better bigger picture.

 

[Hotspitta]

"Everyone, on three, we will lower the car down with our Jedi abilities...ONE...TWO..."

Hahahaha i lol'd

 

[430_Riviera]

both team has something to learn from each other, turn 10 has to learn about being more fixated on details, while pd has to learn about when to stop chasing a certain detail for the better bigger picture.

I agree JJ72, however I feel that one of the approaches is more damaging than the other. Whilst less attention to detail in the case of T10 results in things maybe not being as pretty, or subtle modelling errors in cars, PD's approach left a game unfinished, brutally buggy and for many, ruined.

There is always a lesser of two evils, and it's pretty clear for a reasonable number of people in this thread that it is T10.

What haven't I taken into account? Forza outsource their modelling to reduce costs. Most of which 'as amar provides substancial sourcing for' are located in countries with reduced labour costs'. You know that saying 'you get what you pay for' well it's true, especially in this industry when it comes to production values.

No, Forza outsource their modelling to reduce modelling time. You know, that thing that left GT5 with 200 premium cars out of 1000? I can assure you that yes, it might be slightly cheaper but a dedicated modelling house will still cost an arm and a leg to use for a project. I don't really think that overall budget is necessarily a deal breaker for these massively flagship AAA titles with backing from 2 of the worlds largest and richest companies.

Here's me thinking that adding a turbo charger to a vehicle or modifying suspension isn't classified as a customisation. You and your bum buddy Terronium-12 are hilarious

I know, he's crazy eh' holmes? I mean it's almost like you can't modify the brak... Oh wait. Well at least you can change the wheels and add something as simple as a spoiler to all ca... Oh wait. Well at least the mods do what they should to a car, you can adjust the suspension however you'd better get used to looking at things backwards as that is how the suspension tuning is. Oh, by the way the carbon propshaft you've just spent 4k on doesn't actually reduce the overall weight of the car, and neither does that tiny, light racing clutch. And you've just installed an ecu chip in a 1967 car... with points based ignition. Boy, that racing exhaust has really changed that engine, it appears to have removed 4 cylinders, and now revs to 10,000 rpm, odd having a V8 camaro that sounds like a dyson isn't it? But it's ok because that car has 40,000 polygons in it's left indicator so as long as it doesn't race with any standards (or an Audi R8 V10 with a V8 in the back) the immersion won't be ruined and it will look VERY shiny.

*snaps out of it*

Sorry, what were we saying about attention to detail?

 

[bullet360]

But here's the real kicker for me. In 2 years, Turn 10 have only churned out 25 cars for Autovista that are in similar quality to the 200 premium cars that GT churned out, even with so much extra staff. That tells me one of two things. Polyphony are not lazy, and have amazing graphic designers.

Simply the most staggering statement to t10 as a whole. Sure the forza series has been improving more and more, but only because they have been "improving" dull edges and glares. Simply no more than a carver edging and smoothing a hand carved sculpture, unlike PD completely starting all over introducing interior views, a heavier rain feature (gt3 offered a wet ssr5), brand new snow and dirt racing locations, an awe inspiring lighting and physics engine, a painting system for road vehicles (atleast its SOMETHING) and a first for online implementation for the public. Sure PD has half the employee's as t10, but they still accomplished a game that not only is comparable, but also brought a new standard to console games that aren't focused upon a one car class franchise.

Sure the arcade wasnt mainly focused upon... (But what racing game with an online feature is?) B-spec? surely we all can agree on is a waste of time for in game credits and exp. RM? I would really like to know what happened, GT2 featured hundreds of cars that you can add a performance upgrade and some decals to. Car delivery? Not completely useless... I have around 75 vehicles l don't want to even consider having in the game. Machine test? Makes me wonder what happened to the 400, 1000, and top speed features that are available in previous games. Special events? Can be improved. I miss the flashing my headlights at the interactive ai in the merc sls along Nordshliefe, why isnt there more of this? License tests? Also, not completely useless, if you achieved all golds like l did, then you found a pretty great understanding of how the physics worked. I wish they would rather enforce an all silvers in the licenses to play online, than that garbage leveling system they implemented. I found myself stuck grinding either because l didnt have enough money, or because l wasnt high enough of a level to not only drive a car, race in a race, or to simply get "rejected" from a room at random because im not a high enough level.

It only makes me wonder what PD could/would create if they had the same amount of employe's as t10, with the amount of time such as the 5 years they would wait to produce a game (or 7 since kaz wanted another 2). They are hard workers but i cant help but ask why pick the hard way out? So many things can be imroved to help their work force as a whole.

Since l wrote a book, im happy in hoping that you all understand what im getting at. As a long time fan of the series, and for thr first time in the series, im heavily disapointed in gt5. But it does deliver in ways others cant, both good and bad.

 

[HBK]

I don't get what your saying, and that why if you read my post I said they are not comparable.

The pits are cool. Except your car is actually flying and the fueling is done plain wrong most of the time (the tip of the fuel tank is rarely at the right position for the car, when it is touching the car at all).

 

[bullet360]

The pits are cool. Except your car is actually flying and the fueling is done plain wrong most of the time (the tip of the fuel tank is rarely at the right position for the car, when it is touching the car at all).

Well the x2010 is a poor example of what you're trying to prove since it simply isnt a real... Whatever it is (jet on wheels?) but ya, the pits can be heavily improved.

 

[marchi]

I agree JJ72, however I feel that one of the approaches is more damaging than the other. Whilst less attention to detail in the case of T10 results in things maybe not being as pretty, or subtle modelling errors in cars, PD's approach left a game unfinished, brutally buggy and for many, ruined.

There is always a lesser of two evils, and it's pretty clear for a reasonable number of people in this thread that it is T10.



No, Forza outsource their modelling to reduce modelling time. You know, that thing that left GT5 with 200 premium cars out of 1000? I can assure you that yes, it might be slightly cheaper but a dedicated modelling house will still cost an arm and a leg to use for a project. I don't really think that overall budget is necessarily a deal breaker for these massively flagship AAA titles with backing from 2 of the worlds largest and richest companies.

Then why not employ all their modellers from the United states?


Because going internationally has saved them a fortune, and just by looking at Forza you can see that price is overarching want for outsourcing.
But in the end, you've got to tell me why those modelling houses can only model those cars to a certain level. You'd think with 5 agencies, they'd be able to design more then 25 autovista styled cars rather then 400 of those that are around 65% of the way there*








*using GT standard model cars as the base.

 

[HBK]

Well the x2010 is a poor example of what you're trying to prove since it simply isnt a real... Whatever it is (jet on wheels?) but ya, the pits can be heavily improved.

And as it's a fantasy car, it gets fueled out of thin air ? Kinda makes sense

There are many cars where the fuel pit is badly done. These kind of screenshots are not easy to find as most people don't seem to give a damn about such details.

Another example :

Bonus, some lol glitch :

 

[Daverytimes]

Then talk with Codemasters, EA, ... you know what just list about every dev/producer you can, and then you will see the big picture.

Having options to buy or not to buy additional content is a choice. Having features listed on a game box and then NOT having them isnt a choice. In fact its a total BS, sleezy thing. Having to fix bugs almost a year after release is pretty pathetic.

And tell Kaz thanks for the MX-5's, Civics, Skylines, and standards that were "waiting" for me. I am almost beside myself with joy.

Funny part about this post, I am betting 80-99% of people still playing GT5 would pay double for GT5 DLC.

You missed his point, zr1 was accusing PD of holding back content but he overlooked the balant "holding back of content" that turn 10 was scheming. Every content we have recieved for GT5 were FREE and the reason we will pay double for any new DLC is because they actually worked hard on it AFTER the game released. Unlike the Majority of developers PD still have some sanity in them and i wholeheartedly applaud them.

 

[amar212]

Bonus, some lol glitch :

 

[HBK]

?

 

[PzR Slim]

Okey, here is the link that can put some things into perspective regarding some points raised.

Follow the link, and than click Super Special The Real Grand Tour gallery.

Speaking of dedication and so on. While in the other world some other "more dedicated" personas can't even make their shaders to look like a damn metal.

Of course, you're also free to click all other galleries made by Abraxas and his amazing Polish friends.

But nevermind, thank God for people with dedication of Polyphony Digital, I'd always take them in front of every other game/title/series/franchise in the whole genre.

And this is the reason why I take pretty much all you say with a huge pinch of salt. If that isn't a perfect description of the word we are not allowed to say I don't know what is.

 

[Zer0]

Are you guys discussing this



Over this?

 

[Luminis]

You don't need to hire more people to get the game faster if you keep your features low. Maybe if T10 had doubled the team now we would have night, weather and more cool half assed things. If you want to choose that pattern all two games can play. The point is that GT5 is doing things that all people was expecting in FM4 and PD team is not bigger than T10.

So, in your opinion, a half assed feature is worth as much as a half-assed one? Well, GT5's the game for you then, obviously.

There are only two possible explanations:

Relocating artists as a code programers? I highly doubt it happen and even more by default. That's like putting car designers as F1 drivers.

Maybe you've never thought of that, but they could just fire one of the guys and hire someone who can do the job that's needed. It's called the real world, stuff like that happens a lot. Adapt or perish.

If the reason PD wasn't able to have a polished game was because of manpower then that doesn't make them lazy, in-fact it makes them hard workers to able to cram so much content (finished or not) with such little workforce.

What does it make them to have such a little workforce in the first place? I mean, it's no heroic deed to fight an uphill battle if you brought that situation upon yourself. It's just a lack of common sense to try and cram PS4 stuff in a PS3 game and try to cover your mistakes up by using PS2 stuff.

I would not be surprised if two to four times or even more man hours has gone into Forza 4 to get it to the stage it has got itself at right now compared to GT5.

And, let me guess, you're holding that inf avour of PD, no? See my point about uphill battles above.

About profit, many first party studios have been dropped by Microsoft or they have left, Turn 10 was founded to beat PD’s GT series and it has yet to do that in terms of sales numbers. The only way it would have been dropped by Microsoft is if it was say selling only 1-2 million copies a title at a maximum. I will find it interesting to see how well Forza 4 does when it goes on sale to see the sales trend as it could probably sell less than Forza 3 or sell a lot more. I think it will sell similar amount to Forza 3.

A game that's selling close to five million copies (FM3), there's no need to debate whether it's worth to keep FM around. Most game franchise don't even reach that, per release.

Plus, last time I checked, the FM franchise has lots of DLC as an additional source of income. Haven't seen that for GT so far.

As far as simple maths goes, Turn 10 have had for the last 8 years about 1.5-2.5X the staff PD have had but released less games, and sold a lot less. I think you can agree on this right?

Good thing you can just port GT4's cars and tracks to the PSP and call it a full game, eh? Same with GT5, actually.

But, as has been said before: I don't get why people are insisiting on favouring PD because the team's small. I mean, maybe you guys admire that, or something. All I know is, it's compromising the product I'm paying my hard-earned cash for. And if it comes to my cash, I'm just looking at what I get for it, not at some sort of "underdog" support (which I'd consider funny at best, as I can hardly see a Sony firstparty studio as the underdog at anything... If we were talking about some upstart developer with a budget of some hundred grands, that's when I'd consider to think that way).

PD aren't lazy, just under-manned and poorly managed.

👍
And this, I might add, is not something that makes me enjoy their products more.

Both games had bugs. Forza 4 will be no different. And i can bet you a 100% There will be a patch. So will spec II update, or gt6 or any freaking game.

Oh, almost every game has its bugs. The difference is, we didn't have to wait for a year before the lacking shift animations were implemented in FM3.

I just pointed to stuff that was added onto forza 3. Someone argued spec 2 shows gt5 was incomplete since they are adding things.

GT5. at this point, still lacks features that were printed on the back of the box in some reagion (NA I think?). If that's not the definition of an incomplete game, I don't know what is.

The thing isn't that Forza is perfect, it's jsut that isn't as bad as GT5. Not being as bad as GT5 doesn't mean something has to be perfect. Far from it. It's pretty easy to be "more finished" than GT5, in my opinion.

I did. A game with no bugs is perfect. A game with missed features that were promised are incomplete. I'm saying both games are guilty of both. Nay or yay?

Your world must be pretty darn black and white, eh?

Come on guys both the catchphrases are just that. Nothing more and nothing less. Neither one is more accurate or inaccurate than the other.

Exactly. Also, wasn't GT5's catch phrase usually taken seriously by guys defending GT? Because, you know, it doesn't need to do racing well, as it's a "Driving Simulator"? Just saying, just saying.

In my opinion, both slogans can be dismissed. The bullet points, on the back of the boy that tell me what's supposed to be contained in the product I'm buying... These, I'm taking seriously.

When you outsource, you lose the ability to completely control the quality of the product you are receiving. Considering the great lengths that turn 10 have outsourced to reduce costs and some of the poorly modled interiors, I'd say if it were done in house, they'd be modeled to a higher standard.

If they were done inhouse, they'd be just that, standard. As in, lackign cockpit view and looking so very dated.

I don't know, but lacking a cockpit is worse to me than a nose being slightly off. But that's just me. I'd just rather have a decent balance between quality and quantity than to have 20% of premiums so PD can boast about awesome quality and 80% standards so they can boast about awesome quantity.

but actually working on it shows commitment and respect for the fans who bought the game.

I can't put commitment and respect in my PS3. There, I said it. I don't give a damn about these ephemeral things.

-> Can't be bothered to deal with the rest of the thread just now