Formula 1 Grand Prix de Monaco 2016

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I've just watch the GP2 long race at Monaco and it raises serious concerns over VSC fairness (also used in F1).
It basically offered an out of the blue victory to a driver and rip off an other one. To be honest i still don't see how this has been possible ; TV commentator were in a state of disbelief too.
Do i miss something?
 
They should just use FCY, which works better, fitting everyone to a speed rather than laptime. Drivers gain and lose out under FCY and VSC and SC with pitstops, it's a part of racing that people can and will profit and lose from.
 
What FCY stands for?

I thought VSC used some sorts of sectors limits, in order to limit speed at any given time from VSC start to end signals. If not, this is just embarrassing to have a such flawed system. I don't know how much a pitstop cost in GP2, but with less than 14 s gap on Nato before the VSC, Markelov should have left the pit way behind (Nato and others), not in front for what looks to many as a robbed victory.
 
Milouse
What FCY stands for?

I thought VSC used some sorts of sectors limits, in order to limit speed at any given time from VSC start to end signals. If not, this is just embarrassing to have a such flawed system. I don't know how much a pitstop cost in GP2, but with less than 14 s gap on Nato before the VSC, Markelov should have left the pit way behind (Nato and others), not in front for what looks to many as a robbed victory.
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FCY = Full course yellow.

I can't comment on this particular incident since I can't watch the race until Sunday, but in these situations someone almost always loses out. Just watch a couple indycar races and you are bound to see someone get their race messed up by a yellow.

I don't understand the point of VSC because it seems that whenever it comes out it is almost always followed by a real safety car. I guess it gives race control more options but seems kind of pointless to me overall.
 
I have'nt seen this GP2 race so I'll not comment directly on that but I've been saying it for years that I don't think they should be allowed to pit under safety car, unless for damage repair because they were in an accident/collision or have a puncture.

Time and again races are completely mixed up and someone benefits because they happened to be in the right place at the right time when the safety car comes out, and vice versa on someone losing out. The safety Car should be about neutralising the race and making the track safe, nothing else. That is its purpose. It shouldn't constantly be used as a strategy tool to get ahead in the race. Bunching of the pack in unavoidable, and some will still have bad luck in that regard, but I just don't find the excitement or fairness of a driver jumping 5 places because he was in the last corner when the safety car came out and pitted.

That is my opinion anyway.
 
From FIA:
"Under the VSC, drivers must reduce their speed and stay above a minimum time set by the FIA at least once in each marshalling sector."

I don't know how many marshalling sectors there are on a track like Monaco.
 
Milouse
I've just watch the GP2 long race at Monaco and it raises serious concerns over VSC fairness (also used in F1).
It basically offered an out of the blue victory to a driver and rip off an other one. To be honest i still don't see how this has been possible ; TV commentator were in a state of disbelief too.
Do i miss something?
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Markelov's win had nothing to do with the VSC, after the leaders pitted he had a 12 second lead and then started lapping considerably faster than Nato and Rowland. By the time the VSC came out he already had a big enough gap to pit and come out in the lead. The commentators were really poor, not only did they not notice this, they seemingly don't understand how time and distance works. The VSC keeps everyone at a constant distance, which means when everyone is going slower the delta between everyone increases but this obviously returns to normal when everyone speeds up again. The commentators somehow thought he gained 30 seconds. If that were the case he would have had a 50+ second lead and would have been a long way clear of Nato when he came out after his stop.
 
SilverArrow
Markelov's win had nothing to do with the VSC
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Certainly not. Here's what happened exactly:

L30 1.Nat(0), 2.Row(0) 3.794, 3.Mak(0) 20.159, 4.Lyn 31.470, 5.Eva 37.996
Then Rowland pit
L31 1.Nat(0), 2. Mak(0) 18.939, 3.Row 27.747, 4.Lyn 33.815, 5.Eva 38.158
Then Nato pit (with a stop around 4 s longer because of a small problem)
L32 1.Mak(0), 2.Nat 11.009, 3.Row 11.257, 4.Lyn 15.366, 5.Eva 19.135
...
L34 1.Mak(0), 2.Nat 13.735*, 3.Row +1.367, 4.Lyn +3.177, 5.Eva +3.255

* : time at the beginning of the lap, at the end, it was 13.612, so pace were then very close once Nato got his tires warmed.

These were the last non-VSC timing we got before the next VSC at the following lap.

Then came two consecutive VSC, with less than a lap between them.

After the last VSC, with only two laps to go (because of race time limit), Mak jump into the pit. A pit stop cost 25 seconds. He had 13.6 s at the last non-VSC un-skewed timing, so we all waited to see him get out 12 seconds behind the leaders. During VSC, a driver jumped 12 s ahead of others, and officially everything is fine.

Even Nat and Mak didn't understand. Quotes...
Nato : When I saw Markelov in front of me at the end of the pitlane, two laps before the end of the race, I did not understand because I thought he was P6.
Markelov : The team was shouting on the radio so I thought I was P4 or P5 maybe and they were not happy with my result. But when I came out after the first corner, I saw my name on the big screen. And I was P1. I thought: “That’s impossible! It’s not me! It’s unbelievable”
 
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Milouse
Certainly not. Here's what happened exactly:

L30 1.Nat(0), 2.Row(0) 3.794, 3.Mak(0) 20.159, 4.Lyn 31.470, 5.Eva 37.996
Then Rowland pit
L31 1.Nat(0), 2. Mak(0) 18.939, 3.Row 27.747, 4.Lyn 33.815, 5.Eva 38.158
Then Nato pit
L32 1.Mak(0), 2.Nat 11.009, 3.Row 11.257, 4.Lyn 15.366, 5.Eva 19.135
...
L34 1.Mak(0), 2.Nat 13.735*, 3.Row +1.367, 4.Lyn +3.177, 5.Eva +3.255

* : time at the beginning of the lap, at the end, it was 13.612, so pace were then very close once Nato got his tires warmed.

These were the last non-VSC timing we got before the next VSC at the following lap.

Then came two consecutive VSC, with less than a lap between them.

After the last VSC, with only two laps to go (because of race time limit), Mak jump into the pit. A pit stop cost 25 seconds. He had 13.6 s at the last non-VSC un-skewed timing, so we all waited to see him get out 12 seconds behind the leaders. During VSC, a driver jumped 12 s ahead of others, and officially everything is fine.

Even Nat and Mak didn't understand. Quotes...
Nato : When I saw Markelov in front of me at the end of the pitlane, two laps before the end of the race, I did not understand because I thought he was P6.
Markelov : The team was shouting on the radio so I thought I was P4 or P5 maybe and they were not happy with my result. But when I came out after the first corner, I saw my name on the big screen. And I was P1. I thought: “That’s impossible! It’s not me! It’s unbelievable”
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If those numbers are right then fair enough, but he definitely didn't gain the 30+ secs that was being thrown around by the commentator who can't do maths. I do remember one of the VSC ended when markelov was exiting the chicane, that could have caused a small advantage as he was accelerating from the speed he would have been going at normal racing conditions anyway. I still believe that this system is a lot more fair than a normal safety car which completely wipes out the advantage any driver has and artificially closes up the field.
 
spacecowboy73
FCY = Full course yellow.

I can't comment on this particular incident since I can't watch the race until Sunday, but in these situations someone almost always loses out. Just watch a couple indycar races and you are bound to see someone get their race messed up by a yellow.

I don't understand the point of VSC because it seems that whenever it comes out it is almost always followed by a real safety car. I guess it gives race control more options but seems kind of pointless to me overall.
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Not sure what races youve been watching, but since the start of the 2015 season where the VSC was first introduced, we've seen it used many times in both F1 and GP2, and not had it followed immediately by a Safety Car.

A VSC and FCY are two ways of achieving the same result. It slows the cars down while keeping the gaps between the cars consistent....although one might argue that when watching WEC where FCY is used, the gaps usually do change.

daan
We really should get a GP2 thread...
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We need a junior formula threas....GP2, GP3, F3, F4, FV8, etc.
 
twitcher
Not sure what races youve been watching, but since the start of the 2015 season where the VSC was first introduced, we've seen it used many times in both F1 and GP2, and not had it followed immediately by a Safety Car.

A VSC and FCY are two ways of achieving the same result. It slows the cars down while keeping the gaps between the cars consistent....although one might argue that when watching WEC where FCY is used, the gaps usually do change.

We need a junior formula threas....GP2, GP3, F3, F4, FV8, etc.
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Only every F1 race since it's been put in place.

Maybe it's better used in gp2 and 3 but I don't get to watch those very often.
 
Indeed, the 30 (33.6 measured) seconds wrongly refer to a gap won by Markelov during first two of the three VSC laps, which appears bigger than what it is under race pace, hence the confusion. Still, it should be only slightly above zero, and once corrected to normal lap, turn into a 24 s gap.

daan
We really should get a GP2 thread...
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Maybe. I choose to post here because of the VSC matter used in F1. Specially on a track like Monaco.

mustafur
Pitting under vsc Is a huge advantage.
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That's why it is not allowed, and did not happen.
 
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spacecowboy73
Only every F1 race since it's been put in place.

Maybe it's better used in gp2 and 3 but I don't get to watch those very often.
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Off the top of my head USA 2015 had a VSC only period, there were definitely other occasions but my short term memory is poor.
 
Milouse
Maybe. I choose to post here because of the VSC matter used in F1. Specially on a track like Monaco.
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Then you chose to post in the wrong place. This thread is about the 2016 F1 Monaco GP and I don't recall the VSC being used in that race yet.
 
twitcher
When have you seen a VSC followed by a SC in F1...compared to how many VSC not followed by a SC?
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Well Monaco last year for one. There's many other examples. I'll try to find some if I have time.

Edit: Russia 2016

Samus
Off the top of my head USA 2015 had a VSC only period, there were definitely other occasions but my short term memory is poor.
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That's the only one I can remember as well, but I think Singapore might have had one as well.
 
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daan
Then you chose to post in the wrong place. This thread is about the 2016 F1 Monaco GP and I don't recall the VSC being used in that race yet.
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The GP2 race demonstrated how things could go wrong in the F1 upcoming race. I think expressing a concern before the event is relevant in an event thread ; the discussion is about VSC and how it can change a race outcome in general and on a track like Monaco in particular.
 
spacecowboy73
Well Monaco last year for one. There's many other examples. I'll try to find some if I have time.

Edit: Russia 2016



That's the only one I can remember as well, but I think Singapore might have had one as well.
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If you're going to go hunting for examples, look for examples of both situations. I gaurentee you will find more VSC only Occurances as opposed to VSC followed by a full SC.

Your original comment was that you don't get the point of the VSC, as it is "almost always followed by a full SC." That is wrong, there are more instances of VSC not being followed by a full SC than there are of a VSC being followed by a full SC.
 
spacecowboy73
Well I guess that settles it. 👍
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Actually, I think this settles it... can we move on now?

daan
Then you chose to post in the wrong place. This thread is about the 2016 F1 Monaco GP and I don't recall the VSC being used in that race yet.
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In Monaco news; the FIA have reversed their ruling that drivers in the race will not be allowed to discard visor tear-offs on track. Whiting says that no reports will be made of drivers disposing of tear-offs on the track or onto the pitlane. Autosport (apologies, there'll be another source soon).
 
TenEightyOne
Actually, I think this settles it... can we move on now?



In Monaco news; the FIA have reversed their ruling that drivers in the race will not be allowed to discard visor tear-offs on track. Whiting says that no reports will be made of drivers disposing of tear-offs on the track or onto the pitlane. Autosport (apologies, there'll be another source soon).
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Sorry for posting on topic that didn't interest you. Is there a specific amount of replies I should adhere by next time? Thanks.
 
But we're no longer talking about junior formula, we're talking about VSC situation in F1. Yes, it has nothing specific to do with the Monaco GP, but since we don't have a "general F1 discussion" thread, there's no where to post this discussion. If it were in a junior formula thread, which I do agree we need, we would now be off topic there too. So do we need a F1 VSC specific thread? Or an F1 rules thread, to go along with all the race threads, the driver thread, the constructor thread, the track thread, etc.

To me, this whole "you're off topic" issue is very childish and OCD. Conversations evolve, change direction, have sub-convos etc. Why people insist on being upset by something being "off topic", or feel the need to fill the first page of any new thread with discussion about whether or not the thread should exists only leaves me laughing and shaking my head.

I appreciate the efforts the mods make to keep things organized, but sometimes I feel they take it too far....and the non-mods who constantly need to chime in are completely unneeded.


Anyways....back on topic, I hope it rains on Sunday.
 
twitcher
But we're no longer talking about junior formula, we're talking about VSC situation in F1. Yes, it has nothing specific to do with the Monaco GP, but since we don't have a "general F1 discussion" thread, there's no where to post this discussion. If it were in a junior formula thread, which I do agree we need, we would now be off topic there too. So do we need a F1 VSC specific thread? Or an F1 rules thread, to go along with all the race threads, the driver thread, the constructor thread, the track thread, etc.
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There is no limit on the number of threads that can be created, and nothing is stopping anyone from creating them.

Hint: It shouldn't go in a general F1 discussion thread either. Huge, great big general threads are of no use to man nor beast.

twitcher
I appreciate the efforts the mods make to keep things organized, but sometimes I feel they take it too far....and the non-mods who constantly need to chime in are completely unneeded.
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Yeah, stuff forums, lets just have one big thread where no-one can find anything.

Look at it this way, in a year or 2 from now, someone may remember a chat we/they had about the VSC.

Now, what thread was that in? I've done a search for VSC but there's loads of posts that mention it. If only it had been in it's own thread instead of in a random GP thread it'd have been so much easier to find...

Oh, and talking about a VSC that was in a specific race would be fine to talk about in that specific race thread, but this was a GP2 VSC...
 
daan
There is no limit on the number of threads that can be created, and nothing is stopping anyone from creating them.

Hint: It shouldn't go in a general F1 discussion thread either. Huge, great big general threads are of no use to man nor beast.
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In your opinion. I find large threads much easier to navigate as opposed to dozens of smaller ones. That's just me though. Apparently my preference is wrong though.


Yeah, stuff forums, lets just have one big thread where no-one can find anything.
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Don't be rediculous, that's not what I meant and you know it. Did you conveniently skip the sentence where I said I appreciate the effort made to organize things, and that its only sometimes, such as now, that things get a little OCD and silly?

Oh, and talking about a VSC that was in a specific race would be fine to talk about in that specific race thread, but this was a GP2 VSC...
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The original comment was inspired by how the events of the GP2 race might effect a future F1 race, specifically the upcoming Monaco GP. The convo then evolved into specific discussion of the GP2 VSC, and then evolved again into a discussion of VSC events in previous F1 races.

Are you suggesting that this conversation should have been carried out across 3 or more seperate threads?
 
twitcher
In your opinion
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And, that being the staff's opinion conveyed to you by a member of staff, that's the opinion that counts.

This thread is for the 2016 F1 Monaco Grand Prix. The interesting aside that has come about from it certainly merits its own thread, rather than burying it 3 pages into what will likely be a 20 page dissection of a racing incident that was clearly Hamilton's fault...
 

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