Formula 1 Großer Preis Santander Von Deutschland 2012

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Remember when he came so close to winning the world championship?
Class is permanent, form is temporary.


So close yes....Form? He didnt have 3 bad races, he's having 3 really bad seasons. Being seconds of Alonso in the wet or dry, not to mention being 131 points down on his teammate.
Its time for him to go drive DTM or something.
 
I thought maybe Massa was back after Silverstone, but no it seems it was just the situation that was favorable to him. He's pretty far behind Fernando and if I'm not mistaken he's the one who have, race after race, the biggest gap wiht his teammate.

As for what Minok said I dont agree at all, yeah maybe it happen several years ago but rules have change now and the FIA dont let stuff l ike that happen anymore. There's a simple rule, you can't overtake with 4 wheel off the track, Vettel did, he got punished nothing wrong about that. Maybe the rule should be change but then people will cut chicane in Monza and whatnot.
 
It is clear in my mind that the FIA and Formula 1 have a serious problem of effective and equitable adjudication and defining proper racing.

To give Vettle a 20 sec penalty for that pass is absolutely insane, given the way the FIA has ruled in the past. Just looking beyond the fact that had Vettle stayed on the track, Button would have collided with him as they were side-by-side and thus ended the race for both of them (is that the result the FIA would have preferred?) There is plenty of history of passing while off track has been allowed and gone unpunished.

Some have argued that this case is different because the actual pass took place off track (one car's nose moving past the other car's nose) but I'd say that where the actual 'pass' takes place is irrelevant to the entire discussion, and the only thing that matters is does the car gain any advantage by going full off track, and what was avoided by going full off track.

I will argue that going 4 wheels off track ALWAYS provides an advantage if you can continue racing as it means you went into the turn or whatever faster than you should have and thus gained some time. If we want to fix this issue, ensure that the full width of the car is just wider than ANY shoulder and thus if 4 wheels go off the farthest off wheels are then in gravel or a wall. Simple and effective.
However, I have seen many cases where cars pass off the track and no action is taken. Think back several years to any number of starts where cars pile into the first turn and many cars drive outside the track and around, rather than slotting in behind other cars to stay 'on track' and end up passing cars that did stay 'on track', or avoided the congestion of staying on track.

If staying on track is to be THE expectation, then the FIA must enforce it in ALL cases, not just when it happens to be to be a pass in the points positions at the end of the race. ALL times, be it in turn one amoung the pack, or a driver all by themselves. I hope next time the drivers just crash into each other and we'll have that to deal with, but at least they stayed on track. Right FIA?

That's the only thing I agree with of your whole post sadly...
The rest of your reasoning might as well be: someone else got away with murder before me, so I should get away with it too. And dragging the starts into the discussion has no point, the FIA is a bit 'looser' on race starts since it's next to impossible to get all cars through the first corner(s) without a couple of them having to make an evasive manoeuvre of some sort to avoid a pile-up.
 
So close yes....Form? He didnt have 3 bad races, he's having 3 really bad seasons. Being seconds of Alonso in the wet or dry, not to mention being 131 points down on his teammate.
Its time for him to go drive DTM or something.

While I'll admit i've never been a Massa fan (back in 2007 I was ranting about how were he to be WDC he'd be the weakest driver to have ever achieved it), I still think it was his injury which seems to have finished him off professionally. He just never been the average driver he was before that.

Really don't understand what Ferrari see in him.
 
To give Vettle a 20 sec penalty for that pass is absolutely insane, given the way the FIA has ruled in the past. Just looking beyond the fact that had Vettle stayed on the track, Button would have collided with him as they were side-by-side and thus ended the race for both of them (is that the result the FIA would have preferred?) There is plenty of history of passing while off track has been allowed and gone unpunished.

I do agree to an extent that the FIA have been guilty of making quite a few inconsistant calls (or lack thereof) in the past, and have often left many questionable openings in the rulebook.

But a 20 second penalty for Vettel's move today shouldn't come as too much of a suprise at all, especially given that Button had initially given Vettel room upon corner exit. It was just that Vettel intended to use the run of area to gain an advantage to begin with...not particularly to avoid contact.

Regardless, these types of penalties should be expected when you do such. And Imo, I've seen far more questionable penalties handed for such incidents in the past.

Like the Alonso/Kubica incident @ Silverstone in 2010



Looking back, this incident/penalty (which is hard one to judge) cost Alonso the Championship in 2010 :ouch:
 
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Fernando always had an answer today for whatever was thrown at him so he deserved it. Jenson had a much needed result while Vettel had to resort to driving off the track to pass him and paid the price. Kimi was quiet while Grosjean collided with Senna. Massa is slowly losing it if he hasn't already. Both Saubers used their strong race pace and didn't get in the way of each other while on different strategies for a strong result. Webber was nowhere, Maldonado suffered damage which left him a lap down (unfortunate). Hamilton was unlucky to be the only driver to suffer a puncture on debris and then unlapped himself on Vettel. Nothing wrong with that if you have the pace to do so, not the best thing to come from me as I have been on both sides of the argument.

Vettel was right to receive the penalty because he was behind at the exit and went off track to complete the overtake, the short gear ratio also probably had something to do with it as well.

What will Hungary bring?

Whether it did cost alonso the title that year is debatable thought.
 
To give Vettle a 20 sec penalty for that pass is absolutely insane, given the way the FIA has ruled in the past. Just looking beyond the fact that had Vettle stayed on the track, Button would have collided with him as they were side-by-side and thus ended the race for both of them (is that the result the FIA would have preferred?)

You seem to be saying those were the only two options, rather than the glaringly obvious Option 3 which he should have taken, thus avoiding a penalty: He goes off track but doesn't use it to his advantage to pass Button.

Vettel simply didn't have the space to stay on track and out-accelerate Button when they hit the straight, so he did it off the track instead, where there was apparently a lot of grip.

Comparing this to evasive manoeuvres in a bottleneck situation during the first couple of corners after a start is way off the mark. Also i've seldom seen that actually give an advantage, so examples would be of interest, though I think they might be very isolated examples.

EDIT: This is a comment on the overtake situation, not the severity of the penalty, which I think should have been a simple 1-place drop in finishing position, though who's to say that Kimi might not have caught up with Seb had he not got past Jenson? You just can't tell.
 
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Article 16.3 of the Sporting Regulations states thus:

16.3 The stewards may impose any one of the penalties below on any driver involved in an Incident:
a) A drive‐through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re‐join the race without stopping.
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds and then re‐join the race.
If either of the two penalties above are imposed during the last five laps, or after the end of a race, Article 16.4b) below will not apply and 20 seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned in the case of a) above and 30 seconds in the case of b).
c) A time penalty.
d) A reprimand.
If any of the four penalties above are imposed they shall not be subject to appeal.
e) A drop of any number of grid positions at the driver’s next Event.
f) Exclusion from the results.
g) Suspension from the driver’s next Event.

The 20 second time penalty was given in lieu of a drive-through, which he would have gotten had the penalty been issued during the race. Looks like a fair call to me.
 
So, how can one force you to move right, if you're behind and there's room in the left too?

At some point you need to get alongside to get past.

Really, clutching at straws here I reckon?


If you want to say Rosberg didn't force Hamilton off the track in that video I showed, I won't be bothered. We've also got people in here who've been genuinely calling Alonso a lucky driver for some time. Same kind of thing.
 
Bit late to the party here but just saw most of the race on BBC, anyway umad Vettel fans, UMAD?! :D:lol:

Vettel again shows signs of immaturity, he was right when he said that Button's tyres were gone, so why not wait instead of cheating ? Penalty was deserved, don't think the FIA can really be accused of bias against Red Bull. Sticky paint or not, there's still an advantage gained by going wide, basic stuff. Clearly Button left room and it looked like he lifted slightly so as not to run wide and then floored it when he sees Vettel using the run off, something which he had done earlier in the race.

Quite incredible how the Vettel fans are saying he wasn't in the wrong.

Some great battles between the FI's and Sauber too, shame my internet meant I couldn't see it live.
 
You're supposed to keep two wheels inside the white lines anyways. That is the boundary. It can be summed up by "Are we going to play golf or some other game?"

He failed to complete the pass while keeping to the agreed boundary of the track, and that should be the end of the matter.


The penalty is a bit harsh, they need place lost penalties, but it is better than not penalizing Vettel at all in this case.
 
If they are going to dish out penalties for running wide in corners why was Alonso's pole lap legal? He went off track twice(between T15 &16 and also at the hairpin). Regardless of the wet weather. The rules are rules and especially so in qualifying. Vettel's best lap was also going completely off track in the hairpin because of mistake(then the lap shouldnt be counted)
 
The 20 second time penalty was given in lieu of a drive-through, which he would have gotten had the penalty been issued during the race. Looks like a fair call to me.

Are you so sure about that?

If this incident had happened earlier in the race between Button and Vettel, FIA could've told Red Bull to tell Vettel to give the position back.

If they are going to dish out penalties for running wide in corners why was Alonso's pole lap legal? He went off track twice(between T15 &16 and also at the hairpin). Regardless of the wet weather. The rules are rules and especially so in qualifying. Vettel's best lap was also going completely off track in the hairpin because of mistake(then the lap shouldnt be counted)

Because they didn't gain an advantage by going wide (T6), but it's possible that Alonso gained an advantage by going wide before T16. However, the rule is, you can go wide, but you can't gain an advantage by doing so.
 
There are many things i cannot understand for the life of me in F1. Like why Grosjean waited so late to go out in a rainy Q2.

but Today it is: Why didn't Vettel just give the position back to Button immediately and thus eliminate the possibility of getting a penalty.

Should the stewards do a better job of letting teams know that they face penalty for things like that immediately after the incident? It appears that the stewards gave no indication to Vettel until well after the race itself that he would get penalty.

Faced with the option, would Vettel not concede the position right then and there? Whats with all the indecision? He just ended up being screwed over with a 20 second penalty. At most they should have just put him behind Button. Why the 20 seconds?

If there was a clear cut rule in the rulebook saying that if driver does X, he shall incur a 20 sec penalty then why did it take so long(clearly no one even told them) for the FIA to notify Red Bull? I dont want to say conspiracy against Red Bull but the penalty is certainly the worst case scenario as many other things could have been done including asking him to concede the position. Had it been earlier in the race he would have gotten a drive through. So I think that is why he get the 20 seconds as that is effectively a drivethrough.

And on Red Bull's side. Why didn't they ask Vettel to give back the spot. They should be able to remember every time something like this happens the driver gets bad penalties.
 
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Centura
Are you so sure about that?

If this incident had happened earlier in the race between Button and Vettel, FIA could've told Red Bull to tell Vettel to .give the position back.

Vettel had a lap and a half to give the position back, and he didn't. Clearly he had no intention of doing so. If the stewards had told him to give the spot back, then they weren't following their own rules; nowhere does it state that "penalties may be modified at the stewards' discretion" or anything similar. That being said, I wish they could, as 20 seconds for a relatively minor incident is a bit harsh. Three seconds would probably have been fair.
 
I hope Vettel learns from this; I happen to think he's one of the more likeable drivers (prefer Webber, and oddly enough, Kimi for yucks), but I've missed a few years prior to 2011, and didn't get to watch last night.

Note that humility and class have never really been positively correlated with being fast/successful.

In that situation, I think it was a tactical error to complete the pass; he should have waited. Failing that, he should have given the place back - it would be preferable to waiting for the penalty axe to fall, especially if he thought Jensen's tires were gone - podium and points kept, man brand intact.

I have a question, however - who amongst the grid could be pretty much always be trusted as the passee in that situation (and probably successfully influence the steward's decision, even subconsciously)? I've rebuilt my interest in motorsport somewhat since joining here...

I'd be tempted to say for starters:

Jensen
Mark
Alonso
 
I hope Vettel learns from this; I happen to think he's one of the more likeable drivers (prefer Webber, and oddly enough, Kimi for yucks), but I've missed a few years prior to 2011, and didn't get to watch last night.

Note that humility and class have never really been positively correlated with being fast/successful.

In that situation, I think it was a tactical error to complete the pass; he should have waited. Failing that, he should have given the place back - it would be preferable to waiting for the penalty axe to fall, especially if he thought Jensen's tires were gone - podium and points kept, man brand intact.

I have a question, however - who amongst the grid could be pretty much always be trusted as the passee in that situation (and probably successfully influence the steward's decision, even subconsciously)? I've rebuilt my interest in motorsport somewhat since joining here...

I'd be tempted to say for starters:

Jensen
Mark
Alonso

I would add Kimi to that list.
 
Vettel had a lap and a half to give the position back, and he didn't. Clearly he had no intention of doing so. If the stewards had told him to give the spot back, then they weren't following their own rules; nowhere does it state that "penalties may be modified at the stewards' discretion" or anything similar. That being said, I wish they could, as 20 seconds for a relatively minor incident is a bit harsh. Three seconds would probably have been fair.

He didn't give it back because the stewards made no indication that he did anything wrong. This use to be a hotly constested issue.

a couple years ago when a driver got passed illegally the overtaking driver was asked to give the position back. Teams got crafty and told there driver who had been overtaken illegally to pit so that the stewards would have no choice but to give the gu ya stop and go. If no one left the track then the driver would simply be told to give it back.
 
Yeah, that was brilliant driving, the way he controlled the car for so long through there before the overtake.
 
Blaze_409
He didn't give it back because the stewards made no indication that he did anything wrong. This use to be a hotly constested issue.

What would you consider an indication from the stewards that Vettel did something wrong? Remember, there wasn't much time left for them to do anything--two and a half minutes, tops. As late in the race as it was, it would have been investigated afterwards anyway, so the point is moot.
 
What would you consider an indication from the stewards that Vettel did something wrong? Remember, there wasn't much time left for them to do anything--two and a half minutes, tops. As late in the race as it was, it would have been investigated afterwards anyway, so the point is moot.

The ALMS are good about this sort of thing.

Today, for instance, one of the LMP1 cars jumped the start. He was asked by race control to give the position back to Lucas Luhr (who was on the pole) only a lap after it happened.
What did Chris Dyson do? He gave the position back, and everybody went about their day.
The ALMS is really good about saying "Yo bro, that wasn't cool. Come on, give it up". And what happens? The driver pulls back a bit, and the racing goes on.

Granted, the F1 stewards didnt have that much time, since it was at the end of the race. But i'd like to see the above sort of Stewarding done in F1. It always seems like when someone makes a mistake in F1, they arent informed till after the race, and then they have to give up their firstborn son.
 
The ALMS are good about this sort of thing.

Today, for instance, one of the LMP1 cars jumped the start. He was asked by race control to give the position back to Lucas Luhr (who was on the pole) only a lap after it happened.
What did Chris Dyson do? He gave the position back, and everybody went about their day.
The ALMS is really good about saying "Yo bro, that wasn't cool. Come on, give it up". And what happens? The driver pulls back a bit, and the racing goes on.

Granted, the F1 stewards didnt have that much time, since it was at the end of the race. But i'd like to see the above sort of Stewarding done in F1. It always seems like when someone makes a mistake in F1, they arent informed till after the race, and then they have to give up their firstborn son.

Yeah they definitely need to start saying "Bro" a lot more often.

On another note, "overtake of the day" has to go to Schumacher for his Senna-esque overtake on the Force India into that fast left-hand kink on the way into the stadium complex. Just fantastic to watch, I thought.
 
So... missed the entire race because I was out watching a stage show and having a birthday dinner... unfortunately, not at a restaurant with cable.

-

Having seen the replays of that pass... Vettel definitely deserves some sort of penalty. It's fairly obvious from the overhead cameras that he had not intention of staying on-track, even though Button's initial line gave him enough room to keep two wheels on. It's only after Vettel goes completely off that Button pulls out to use every extra bit of outside line to drag race Seb.

20 seconds is too harsh. Vettel didn't receive a call from race control to cede the position, and that's not his fault. A 5 second penalty would have been fairer... maybe the 20 second is for intention... but really, passing off the outside isn't on the same level as driving like a spotted sausage.

Lewis just can't get a break. Good car in the dry, but a terrible Q3 and terrible luck in the race. But Button's star is on the rise again. When he's not struggling with tire wear, he's delivering.

What can you say about Alonso? Amazing. Incredible. Love him, hate him, you've got to respect him. His performance over these past few races brings back to mind what he did with Renault back in the day... taking a car that's quick but not race-winning and winning in it.
 
EDK
I would add Kimi to that list.

I had to make someone else say it :sly:

Perez thoughts?

niky
What can you say about Alonso? Amazing. Incredible. Love him, hate him, you've got to respect him. His performance over these past few races brings back to mind what he did with Renault back in the day... taking a car that's quick but not race-winning and winning in it.

He appears to be taking life's proverbial lemons (even if the car is quite competitive now) and turning them into margaritas.
 
Its also a bad call by Vettel's race engineer to let Vettel stay ahead as he should have been well aware of penalties for that kind of manouvre.
 
Di Resta maybe too. Him and Kimi side-by-side through 6-7-8 (section of corners after the hairpin) last night was pretty impressive.

I'd forgotten about that. One of the best bits of side-to-side driving I've seen for a while. I commented on twitter during the race that it reminded me very much of this battle between Kimi and Montoya in 2002:



Was really satisfying to see some top-level driving from Kimi and Schumacher in Sunday's race, both proved that they're more than capable of racing at the same level they've ever done. Stick either in the McLaren/Red Bull/Ferrari and they'd be competing for the title this season.

Its also a bad call by Vettel's race engineer to let Vettel stay ahead as he should have been well aware of penalties for that kind of manouvre.

I think, essentially, they were trying it on. As soon as Vettel had made that move, Red Bull and Vettel himself would do everything they can to keep that position in the Grand Prix. You could tell from the way Horner was talking to the SkyF1 guys that he believed it to be a legal pass.
 
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