Formula 1 Großer Preis Santander Von Deutschland 2012
- Thread starter ghskilla
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- Durham, N.C.
- otakukid965
This is dumb. If a driver is forced off track and overtakes off track, they should not be given a penalty.
- 1,613
- Pune
- gorsad
- gorsadamad
But he wasn't forced off track, Button left enough space for him.
- 4,081
- Somerset
- Pagey279
Like others I am also a button fan, (I've met him twice, and live in his home town) and thought vettel was in the wrong, which he was.
But I think 20 seconds was too much, a drive through pitstop is worth 12 seconds at hockenheim. So why not give him a 12 second penalty?
Button would have got 2nd place and I think vettel would have been 3rd. Meaning the whole illegal overtake would have been put right.
But in the post race discussion they were saying the stewards have fixed penalties, and I think someone said the only penalty the stewards could implement was 20 seconds, why is that?
But I think 20 seconds was too much, a drive through pitstop is worth 12 seconds at hockenheim. So why not give him a 12 second penalty?
Button would have got 2nd place and I think vettel would have been 3rd. Meaning the whole illegal overtake would have been put right.
But in the post race discussion they were saying the stewards have fixed penalties, and I think someone said the only penalty the stewards could implement was 20 seconds, why is that?
- 311
- Charlotte, NC
Vettel had room.
- 2,791
- Porto
- Burnout_PT
2 lessons could be learned from this
1 - these pretty and alegeadely safe run offs need some un-gripping at the very least, so that they can't be used at racing pace
2 - different penalties are needed. This 20s standard is sometimes not enough, others too harsh
1 - these pretty and alegeadely safe run offs need some un-gripping at the very least, so that they can't be used at racing pace
2 - different penalties are needed. This 20s standard is sometimes not enough, others too harsh
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- RazrX7
Seemed pretty black and white what the outcome of that pass would be. The thing is, you could say this sort of incident is becoming almost the norm with the 3,000 acres of run off area these guys have to play with nowadays.
Another dominant run from Alonso. Unlucky for Hamilton, but McLaren must surely take some solace from Button's pace. The comments made from the other top runners about their dry pace seem to be justified.
Another dominant run from Alonso. Unlucky for Hamilton, but McLaren must surely take some solace from Button's pace. The comments made from the other top runners about their dry pace seem to be justified.
- 28,418
- Glasgow
- GTP_Mars
No, no and thrice no.
Forced off the track??? There is a HUGE difference between making a move that forces a driver to take evasion action (like Rosberg's swerve directly into Hamilton's path at Bahrain) and taking a defensive line/track position as did Button versus Vettel today.
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- otakukid965
Even if Vettel had room, if you looked carefully, you could see the front right corner of Vettel's car was in fact further ahead than Button's wing, even if it was just a few inches, before he went off. Thus, he had a clean pass.
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- Burnout_PT
You mean after he straightened his wheels aiming straight to the run off and floored it? Yes... I guess he was. But he would never be on track had he tried to turn
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- GTP_Mars
Until he went more than an entire car width off the circuit in order to successfully make it stick.
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- Furinkazen_54
Tired Tyres
Premium
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- Kimky
- Kimky
I think the penalty is correct, he overtook off the track, it's forbidden he got punished. I clearly fail to see where he was forced off track so did the marshall.
As for beeing overtaken by hamilton, it's mostly because he choose to had lower gearing toping him at 308 when Hamilton, Alonso and Button could go to at least 318. Blaming other people because you choose a semi-wet setup is a bit weird but understandable in his position. I would be pissed at Hamilton too and I bet you all would be also. I dont blame Hamilton he has the right to do it but I still would be pissed.
Great race btw was fun to watch.
As for beeing overtaken by hamilton, it's mostly because he choose to had lower gearing toping him at 308 when Hamilton, Alonso and Button could go to at least 318. Blaming other people because you choose a semi-wet setup is a bit weird but understandable in his position. I would be pissed at Hamilton too and I bet you all would be also. I dont blame Hamilton he has the right to do it but I still would be pissed.
Great race btw was fun to watch.
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- Porto
- Burnout_PT
Oh, the british humor 
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- Finland
- TMguardian-FINN
Lotus showed at least some improvements on their pitting strategies, as Kimi passed Webber after their first stops. It certainly was an important overtake.
There's no limitations for first defensive move as long as opponent is behind, but if the line is changed again, then it is required to leave enough space for opponents car. As long as Hamilton was behind, Nico was able to continue his move till the right side of the track. According to rules, he didn't do anything wrong. At that point, Hamilton had three choises:
1. Overtake from left (too late for that)
2. Abort the overtake
3. Overtake while off track
and he picked the only illegal option.
Again, Hamilton was behind when Rosberg's move started, and he was behind when Nico hit the outside line, so I can't see "forcing" included. Hamilton choose to go off track instead of aborting his move. Here's a clip from similar situation, Rosberg vs Alonso. As it can be seen here, Alonso is behind all the time, and Nico's move is 100% legal. (it's a bit cheap trick though, must admit)
No paved run-off areas = problem solved!
Here's one more similar clip from Spa 2000. Schumacher gets what he deserves. (action starts around 0:30)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q_EGqzrZvM
top left of the screen, very beginning. There absolutely was not a car's width of track left there after rosberg's move. Nico's outside tires rode the white line.
There's no limitations for first defensive move as long as opponent is behind, but if the line is changed again, then it is required to leave enough space for opponents car. As long as Hamilton was behind, Nico was able to continue his move till the right side of the track. According to rules, he didn't do anything wrong. At that point, Hamilton had three choises:
2. Abort the overtake
3. Overtake while off track
and he picked the only illegal option.
Again, Hamilton was behind when Rosberg's move started, and he was behind when Nico hit the outside line, so I can't see "forcing" included. Hamilton choose to go off track instead of aborting his move. Here's a clip from similar situation, Rosberg vs Alonso. As it can be seen here, Alonso is behind all the time, and Nico's move is 100% legal. (it's a bit cheap trick though, must admit)
No paved run-off areas = problem solved!
Here's one more similar clip from Spa 2000. Schumacher gets what he deserves. (action starts around 0:30)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q_EGqzrZvM
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- United6694
What is going on with Massa?
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- Bye_Ya
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- TMguardian-FINN
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SilverArrow
I think 20 seconds is just their default penalty. It was perhaps a bit too much for Vettel, but it wasn't enough for Maldonado's idiocy. Or perhaps it was right for Vettel, but nowhere near enough for Crashtor.
They've applied it to plenty of other drivers before too, regardless of what they did. Really, I prefer it to grid penalties, as at least it penalises the driver for the race in which they broke the rules. Five places on the grid doesn't really make a difference in the world of DRS and KERS.
dhandeh
Premium
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- dhandes
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- NissmanR34
Nothing new, still being the worst driver on the grid. Why is Ferrari still beliving in him is beyond me.
Again it was his fault for the crash at the start, totaly misjudged the distance for the car infront and took his wing off, race over.
It is clear in my mind that the FIA and Formula 1 have a serious problem of effective and equitable adjudication and defining proper racing.
To give Vettle a 20 sec penalty for that pass is absolutely insane, given the way the FIA has ruled in the past. Just looking beyond the fact that had Vettle stayed on the track, Button would have collided with him as they were side-by-side and thus ended the race for both of them (is that the result the FIA would have preferred?) There is plenty of history of passing while off track has been allowed and gone unpunished.
Some have argued that this case is different because the actual pass took place off track (one car's nose moving past the other car's nose) but I'd say that where the actual 'pass' takes place is irrelevant to the entire discussion, and the only thing that matters is does the car gain any advantage by going full off track, and what was avoided by going full off track.
I will argue that going 4 wheels off track ALWAYS provides an advantage if you can continue racing as it means you went into the turn or whatever faster than you should have and thus gained some time. If we want to fix this issue, ensure that the full width of the car is just wider than ANY shoulder and thus if 4 wheels go off the farthest off wheels are then in gravel or a wall. Simple and effective.
However, I have seen many cases where cars pass off the track and no action is taken. Think back several years to any number of starts where cars pile into the first turn and many cars drive outside the track and around, rather than slotting in behind other cars to stay 'on track' and end up passing cars that did stay 'on track', or avoided the congestion of staying on track.
If staying on track is to be THE expectation, then the FIA must enforce it in ALL cases, not just when it happens to be to be a pass in the points positions at the end of the race. ALL times, be it in turn one amoung the pack, or a driver all by themselves. I hope next time the drivers just crash into each other and we'll have that to deal with, but at least they stayed on track. Right FIA?
To give Vettle a 20 sec penalty for that pass is absolutely insane, given the way the FIA has ruled in the past. Just looking beyond the fact that had Vettle stayed on the track, Button would have collided with him as they were side-by-side and thus ended the race for both of them (is that the result the FIA would have preferred?) There is plenty of history of passing while off track has been allowed and gone unpunished.
Some have argued that this case is different because the actual pass took place off track (one car's nose moving past the other car's nose) but I'd say that where the actual 'pass' takes place is irrelevant to the entire discussion, and the only thing that matters is does the car gain any advantage by going full off track, and what was avoided by going full off track.
I will argue that going 4 wheels off track ALWAYS provides an advantage if you can continue racing as it means you went into the turn or whatever faster than you should have and thus gained some time. If we want to fix this issue, ensure that the full width of the car is just wider than ANY shoulder and thus if 4 wheels go off the farthest off wheels are then in gravel or a wall. Simple and effective.
However, I have seen many cases where cars pass off the track and no action is taken. Think back several years to any number of starts where cars pile into the first turn and many cars drive outside the track and around, rather than slotting in behind other cars to stay 'on track' and end up passing cars that did stay 'on track', or avoided the congestion of staying on track.
If staying on track is to be THE expectation, then the FIA must enforce it in ALL cases, not just when it happens to be to be a pass in the points positions at the end of the race. ALL times, be it in turn one amoung the pack, or a driver all by themselves. I hope next time the drivers just crash into each other and we'll have that to deal with, but at least they stayed on track. Right FIA?
