Formula 1 Großer Preis Santander Von Deutschland 2012

[SagarisGTB]

What is going on with Massa?

Nothing. He made a misjudgment at the start; clumsy but not unusual when you need to have your eyes pointed in all directions in the pack at the start. After that, he had a respectable race and was closest to getting into the points of all that were forced to make early stops.

His pace was fine, for the fourth race in a row, which is encouraging after the early season struggles.

 

[Blaze_409]

I think, essentially, they were trying it on. As soon as Vettel had made that move, Red Bull and Vettel himself would do everything they can to keep that position in the Grand Prix. You could tell from the way Horner was talking to the SkyF1 guys that he believed it to be a legal pass.

Well if he believe this at any more Grand Prix's he's an idiot lol.

 

[United6694]

Nothing. He made a misjudgment at the start; clumsy but not unusual when you need to have your eyes pointed in all directions in the pack at the start. After that, he had a respectable race and was closest to getting into the points of all that were forced to make early stops.

His pace was fine, for the fourth race in a row, which is encouraging after the early season struggles.

Just want to see him get something this year

Vettel deserved the penalty IMO, he could have kept two wheels on but no...

What do people think about the Red Bull engine map?

 

[Pezzarinho17]

Vettel should have known you can't pass completely off the circuit, as this was cleared up recently after the Bahrain incidents. He should know to give the place back and Red Bull should be telling him to do so if he doesn't. The stewards were only then involved when Red Bull saw nothing wrong in the move.

Johnny Herbert spoke about it after the race as well, as I thought adding 5 seconds so he was third would be fair, but he highlighted how they are not only penalising the move itself, but also the belief that it was fair in passing up the opportunity to return the position. Furthermore, if it had happened earlier in the race then I believe Vettel would have given it back knowing he would make the move later.

On the engine mapping saga, I don't know enough about the current breach but it just sounds like Red Bull being Red Bull to me. They seem to knowingly break rules, wait for the illegal verdict and then remove it without any penalty.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Furthermore, if it had happened earlier in the race then I believe Vettel would have given it back knowing he would make the move later.

Vettel finished the race three seconds ahead of Button. With that in mind, he could have given up the place and then made the move again before the end of the race. Even if he couldn't get past Button, he'd still have five more World Championship points than he does now.

 

[daan]

See, even JPM gets it right in the clip that hfs posted. He ran wide, but didn't benefit, or didn't take the advantage.

As others have already said, why is that bit tarmac there anyway? It's certainly not a high speed corner so it shouldn't need tarmac run off. A wee strip of grass just past the kerb, or completely grass out to the wall, is what's needed there.

The main issue I see with tarmac run-off is that drivers think, "Ooooh, tarmac. I can drive on that."

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's probably there for drivers doing exactly what Vettel did - overcooking it going into the hairpin, and being forced to run wide. Of course, it's not intended as an extension of the racing circuit, as Vettel found out the hard way.

Anyway, am I the only one who thinks it would be in Williams' interests to put Valtteri Bottas in car #19 for Hungary? Bruno Senna has had another disappointing weekend, and Bottas reckons he's ready to race, even if he did wipe out in FP1 at Hockenheim. But they could put Bottas in the car for one race, and see how he goes, before making a decision about and Senna's futures during the summer shut-down.

 

[Grand Prix]

If they manage to overshoot a hairpin like that on exit, I think grass runoff is sufficient punishment for the mistake. I agree with Daan, a physical and easily seen boundary (like grass) might prevent this sort of silly thing from happening again.

 

[daan]

It's probably there for drivers doing exactly what Vettel did - overcooking it going into the hairpin, and being forced to run wide. Of course, it's not intended as an extension of the racing circuit, as Vettel found out the hard way.

Vettel didn't overcook it and he wasn't forced to run wide, but there should be some kind of punishment* for drivers that do.


* And I'm not talking a penalty here. I'm talking about losing time by running across some grass and ending up with dirty tyres for a corner or 2.

 

[Rub1nho]

If they are going to dish out penalties for running wide in corners why was Alonso's pole lap legal? He went off track twice(between T15 &16 and also at the hairpin). Regardless of the wet weather. The rules are rules and especially so in qualifying. Vettel's best lap was also going completely off track in the hairpin because of mistake(then the lap shouldnt be counted)

Alonso drove the 2 fastest laps in Q3, he already had pole and then improved that time. So stop whining about the damn pole lap, he would have had pole anyway.

 

[zed300]

It's hardly runoff at the exit of a corner. Runoff is for when you miss the corner....isn't it.
I think those angled speed bumps are the go, better than grass for when it's wet.

 

[Grand Prix]

http://[domain blocked due to malware]/instances/400x/23843276.jpg

 

[Monty]

Ralf Schumacher always called Hungaroring a Micky Mouse track, wich I found was a stupid comment about a track whose qualities are a important ingridient in a crazy F1 era: Hard directional shifting, narrow track( Compared to the Tilkes) and green surface, due to the low rate of races held there. Kinda like the Monaco magic- you never know who`car will grip it best in the latter phases.Two Carrera Cup races along the testing friday/sat/pro-Magiyar GP-will provide rubber, but who will prevail?
Hamilton must prevail, Button is awakening, and I bet Seb "-no kers-are you kidding!" Vettel, comes back with a vengeance against the ingenious Alonso.
Enjoy the race!

 

[Pupik]

Alonso drove the 2 fastest laps in Q3, he already had pole and then improved that time. So stop whining about the damn pole lap, he would have had pole anyway.

Don't tell anyone, but Narain's glorious 24th place on the grid was actually 20 seconds faster than Alonso's Q3 pole time. #liesdamnliesandstatistics

Pretty good race, but Vettel's pass was an obvious no-no. Heck, my wife caught it right off the bat, although we'd just seen the Senna movie, so it was fresh in our minds...

 

[MUSC4EVER]

The fastest time in qualiyifing was actually done by Jean-eric Vergne!! he did a 1:16.741 in Q2..Alonso's pole lap was a1:40.904 in the wet!

 

[Imari]

The fault for Vettel's penalty lies with the team, IMO. Vettel did the best he could in the situation he was given. He made the pass, and relied on the team to tell him if there was a problem with it.

I can sort of see how Red Bull might have thought in the heat of the moment "we might get away with that one". But a team of this calibre certainly knows that a penalty is possible in that situation, and they made the call not to yield the position. Wrong call, and they lost out for it. Sort of sucks for Vettel, who would have had a reasonable shot of remaking the pass had he yielded quickly, but thems the breaks.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The fastest time in qualiyifing was actually done by Jean-eric Vergne!! he did a 1:16.741 in Q2..Alonso's pole lap was a1:40.904 in the wet!

What? Vergne was eliminated at the end of Q1. Kimi Raikkonen set the fastest time - a 1:15.693, over a second faster than Vergne.

 

[Seismica]

What separates the Button-Vettel move to the Rosberg-Hamilton move in Bahrain is the fact that one was on a straight whilst the other was in a traction zone on a corner exit. Vettel had a better run out of the corner, but he was behind Button at the apex. Had he stayed on track he would have had to lift to avoid hitting the back of the Mclaren. A 20 second penalty is harsh, but penalties are applied based on the incident, not on impact to the finishing order (similar to Schumi's penalty in Monaco 2010).

 

[axletramp]

In general, if you give a driver loads of tarmac every now and again in the heat of battle he is going to use it whether legal or not. But on modern circuits it's a safety necessity and therefore isn't going anywhere.

My feeling is that if there had been a wall or gravel trap instead of run off, would the driver have run wide? Well of course not, but that would be a pretty harsh way of stopping this. I feel that the FIA and stewards should get on top of this and treat all the white lines delineating the circuit just as they currently treat chicanes. If you stray too far or completely over you should get a warning or give back any places gained. If you do it again it's an instant drive through - no exceptions. I can't help thinking that a few of the more ambitious moves going on in modern F1 wouldn't have been pulled off if the rules was less ambiguous.

 

[Pagey279]

^^^^ I think you've found the solution, the FIA could implement a system similar to the one in the BTCC. I think its 3 times the car is allowed to have 4 wheels off the race track. After that they start handing out penalties.

I think its 3 times anyway.

 

[FranciscoJR]

Its simple. He knew he was outside the track, period. Now he could have easily lift off, let button pass him and try again but he didnt. Hamilton didnt do anything wrong. He was clean and he had the faster car at that moment so why not. Besides he knew his teammate was behind him closing the gap so why not try to help him and score points for the team, after all this is a teamsport too. Alonso drove once again a fantastic race, bravo. Ferrari is the team to beat and they have the driver to beat as well. Redbull and Mclaren need to learn from their mistakes and start planning a better strategy because it will be hard to beat Alonso once he is leading the race. Great race once again.

 

[Akmuq]

What? Vergne was eliminated at the end of Q1. Kimi Raikkonen set the fastest time - a 1:15.693, over a second faster than Vergne.

He's talking about the lap times you would see under the drivers pictures at the start of the Grand Prix, I've no idea why to be honest.

 

[ZSPaulus]

The laptimes in Q1 and Q2 where better because of the track conditions. Track was dry in Q1 and 2, and was very wet in Q3. So the pole time is far slower then the time of someone that whent out in Q2.

Hope that helps..

 

[daan]

In general, if you give a driver loads of tarmac every now and again in the heat of battle he is going to use it whether legal or not. But on modern circuits it's a safety necessity and therefore isn't going anywhere.

But not there. I know it's required at faster corners, but that hairpin is one of the slowest corners in F1, and it's also a wide circuit. Tarmac run-off is not required there.

 

[hornet_burnout]

I have no problem with run-off areas on grippy stuff for safety reasons "per se". Actually I'm all for it. In that hairpin there's plenty of tarmac to survive late braking gone wrong or plain over speeding into the corner, or too many people side by side, and I'm ok with this, or an even wider braking zone:

What I fail to see is how a huge bit of tarmac on the side of such a slow corner exit adds any safety:

Except the safety of powering through instead of spinning wheels on the grass/gravel:

 

[Hun200kmh]

But not there. I know it's required at faster corners, but that hairpin is one of the slowest corners in F1, and it's also a wide circuit. Tarmac run-off is not required there.

And if it was, it would be on corner entry for those missing the braking marker, not on corner exit. for those that hit the throttle too soon.

I find all this issue very simple, not much room for controversy. And I also don't agree that the Stewards or Whiting should need to tell a team to give up position or else ...

The Alonso/Kubica episode is very telling in this regard. Alonso asked the team if he should give the position back to Kubica, Domenicalli told him to keep as if nothing while they discussed the matter with "Charlie". Meanwhile, surrendering the position to Kubica became impossible because Kubica pitted. Well, a bit later poor old Stefano was on the comm telling Alonso that he needed to do a drive through.

IIRC, this was when Alonso showed Stefano that he wasn't someone to be messed up with. clearly furious, he asked for silence from that moment on until the end of the race. And the pit crew obeyed.

So, in this case, it's the same. If Vettel can't see what he has done, the team should instruct him. Not the FIA or the stewards office.

And another comment for those that think the penalty is too harsh. It isn't, penalties are not meant to "put things right", they are also meant to punish.

If the penalty was only a demotion to third, then what would Vettel lose for doing something wrong? Nothing. And what could he gain? Second place if the stewards looked the other way. Win-win to go off track then. Or at least win-no loss.


EDIT - First part of my post tree'd by hornet

 

[hornet_burnout]

Sorry

And another comment for those that think the penalty is too harsh. It isn't, penalties are not meant to "put things right", they are also meant to punish.

If the penalty was only a demotion to third, then what would Vettel lose for doing something wrong? Nothing. And what could he gain? Second place if the stewards looked the other way. Win-win to go off track then. Or at least win-no loss.

Quite right about the penalty not being a fixer. One tends to seek "fairness", but must keep in mind at all times that it is a punishment.

 

[IforceV8]

But not there. I know it's required at faster corners, but that hairpin is one of the slowest corners in F1, and it's also a wide circuit. Tarmac run-off is not required there.

Given the nature of that turn its a pinch point.The history of that turns 1st lap incidents would require races to be red flagged if there was no option to drive around the wrecked cars.If your a driver do you really want to do that again?Team owners with tight budgets would surely not want to risk their equipment to the red mist again.

Standard OLR rules apply

 

[hornet_burnout]

You can drive slowly around crashed cars on flat grass just fine

 

[MUSC4EVER]

The laptimes in Q1 and Q2 where better because of the track conditions. Track was dry in Q1 and 2, and was very wet in Q3. So the pole time is far slower then the time of someone that whent out in Q2.

Hope that helps..

Thats exactly what i was talking about!!!