Formula 1 Singapore Airlines Singapore Grand Prix 2023Formula 1 

  • Thread starter Jimlaad43
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Famine
If nothing else it's interesting to see the car which had no bother on 90-degree turns at Jeddah or Azerbaijan is suddenly well off the pace following a new technical directive about the flexing front wing it never had - and that the directive itself appeared now, 18 months+ late, with the 2023 season already as dead as 2022...
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If their performance is just as bad in Japan then I'd say maybe the TD has had an effect but so far, none of the team principal that were interviewed believe that the lack of pace from RB has anything to do with the TD. Even Toto said that during their dominating years they had a similar situation where they came to Singapore and they had no pace and to this day they still had no idea why that happened and he thinks RB will be just as puzzled as they were.
 
MagpieRacer
@rsh out in force with his poo emojis.
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Yup. And if he didn't like that one he definitely won't like the fact that Red Bull's team principal - and co-director of Red Bull Racing with Dr. Helmut Marko - stated that the reason Red Bull Racing didn't make a statement about Red Bull Racing's co-director Dr. Helmut Marko's racist comments was because Dr. Helmut Marko, co-director of Red Bull Racing, is part of the wider Red Bull group and not Red Bull Racing.

Jubby
What about every tech inspection they passed through the year?
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What about them?

We've all watched the RB front wing flexing at speed (and snapping back under braking) for about five years now - I'm pretty sure no-one is foolish enough to deny it as it's as clear as day from onboards - but it's always passed the FIA's static load tests, meaning it doesn't flex beyond the legal limits as far as the FIA is concerned.

However the FIA isn't stupid and can, like the rest of us, see that it flexes more than any other team's front wing.

It seems that it has worked out both how - the crucial line in the new TD is "immobile with respect to their frame of reference" - and how to test it, and has implemented it at this point of the season.

It's just weird it's taken them 18 months (since the last change to front wing load testing) to solve it, when it can, say, ban OTBDs inside 4 months...

RBR is also running a new front floor structure this weekend. That's possibly (and makes sense to be) to compensate for the results of its old front wing now not being legal, to pick up front downforce in another way.

F1 has always been about pushing the letter and spirit of the regulations as far as possible, and RBR's obviously flexing - but legally so until this weekend - wing is an example of it.

It's also weird to see people suggesting that this means RBR was somehow cheating, with a perfectly legal car, affecting old results in some way.

The car was legal; the FIA said so. Clearly it also knew it was doing something against the intention of the rules to achieve a favourable result, which is what every F1 team ever has tried to do.
 
McLaren
Not so sure on that. Even Brundle pointed out the car’s setup is running poorly, with front end sliding all over.
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If they decided to run the exact same setups tomorrow than obviously they aren't going to win.
 
MagpieRacer
@rsh out in force with his poo emojis.

As expected, remove the Red Bulls and qualifying becomes very exciting. Hopefully a good race in store tomorrow.
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There is so much nonsense and allegations here. Smells awefull.

To keep it to the facts: Bulls and bumps (and curbs) by a good combo.
That’s it.
 
MSZ
If they decided to run the exact same setups tomorrow than obviously they aren't going to win.
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Which they will have to unless they want to start from pit lane. Which will make their race even more difficult.

It’s not like the previous setup was doing them any wonder, either before they lowered the car for Qualifying. They’ve just found a track that the car does not seem to be suited for.
 
Famine
Yup. And if he didn't like that one he definitely won't like the fact that Red Bull's team principal - and co-director of Red Bull Racing with Dr. Helmut Marko - stated that the reason Red Bull Racing didn't make a statement about Red Bull Racing's co-director Dr. Helmut Marko's racist comments was because Dr. Helmut Marko, co-director of Red Bull Racing, is part of the wider Red Bull group and not Red Bull Racing.


What about them?

We've all watched the RB front wing flexing at speed (and snapping back under braking) for about five years now - I'm pretty sure no-one is foolish enough to deny it as it's as clear as day from onboards - but it's always passed the FIA's static load tests, meaning it doesn't flex beyond the legal limits as far as the FIA is concerned.

However the FIA isn't stupid and can, like the rest of us, see that it flexes more than any other team's front wing.

It seems that it has worked out both how - the crucial line in the new TD is "immobile with respect to their frame of reference" - and how to test it, and has implemented it at this point of the season.

It's just weird it's taken them 18 months (since the last change to front wing load testing) to solve it, when it can, say, ban OTBDs inside 4 months...

RBR is also running a new front floor structure this weekend. That's possibly (and makes sense to be) to compensate for the results of its old front wing now not being legal, to pick up front downforce in another way.

F1 has always been about pushing the letter and spirit of the regulations as far as possible, and RBR's obviously flexing - but legally so until this weekend - wing is an example of it.

It's also weird to see people suggesting that this means RBR was somehow cheating, with a perfectly legal car, affecting old results in some way.

The car was legal; the FIA said so. Clearly it also knew it was doing something against the intention of the rules to achieve a favourable result, which is what every F1 team ever has tried to do.
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Prove your allegations with facts please.
 
The first time I remember flexi wings being an issue was Ferrari in 1997 and it was the same thing; fine static and flexible under load. What's different this time and why hasn't it been an issue in the intervening 26 years?
 
Liquid
The first time I remember flexi wings being an issue was Ferrari in 1997 and it was the same thing; fine static and flexible under load. What's different this time and why hasn't it been an issue in the intervening 26 years?
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It kind of has; I recall there being several changes to the front-wing load testing over the years, most recently with the new car regs for 2022, but also midway through 2021, back in 2015, again in 201... 2 I think, also in 2010.

Edit: Apparently the last TD on flexiwings in 2022 was incorporated into the regs for 2023, so it's only really six months...
rsh
Prove your allegations with facts please.
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I haven't made any allegations.

However, here's Red Bull Racing's filing at Companies House: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03120645/officers

And here's what Horner said yesterday:
He's not an employee of Red Bull Racing, so in terms of why didn't we put out a statement, he's part of the Red Bull Group and the Group issued an apology through the Servus TV channel.

Helmut is technically an employee directly of... or a consultant to the Group so it's not really a question for me to answer.
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Guess he just forgot that Dr Helmut Marko is one of the two directors of Red Bull Racing, alongside Horner himself...
PaMu1337
I'm honestly surprised that no grid penalties were given
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Maybe not so much surprised, but it's straight crazy that none have been given. I remember when they gave out a five-place penalty (twice) for a guy stopping and doing a practice start in a part of the pit exit that he wasn't supposed to.
 
PaMu1337
Pitlane -> reprimand
Sargeant -> no action
Tsunoda -> reprimand and €5000 team fine

I'm honestly surprised that no grid penalties were given
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There’s a suspicion (or conspiracy depending on who you ask) that they’re using these decisions to lighten the punishment on Max even though Charles apparently got slammed for a similar action to Max’s earlier this season.

Just sharing what I’ve been reading.
 
McLaren
There’s a suspicion (or conspiracy depending on who you ask) that they’re using these decisions to lighten the punishment on Max even though Charles apparently got slammed for a similar action to Max’s earlier this season.

Just sharing what I’ve been reading.
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F1 decisions being inconsistent is nothing new though.
For what it's worth, Sargeant was also under investigation for impeding, and was also given a reprimand and team fine.

It wouldn't make sense for them to consciously favor Max at this point. The guy's gonna be champion either way (we need to have a truly bizarre end of season for this not to happen). So what does anyone have to gain by doing that? But they do have a lot of potential for negative consequences (reputation or even legal) by manipulating the decisions to favor one driver.
 
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rsh
There is so much nonsense and allegations here. Smells awefull.

To keep it to the facts: Bulls and bumps (and curbs) by a good combo.
That’s it.
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Haven’t seen any of either. If it’s just the bumps, then we’ll find out at Suzuka. But given that Mercedes haven’t exactly excelled on bumpy circuits and yet are quicker, plus other bumpy circuits being fine for Red Bull, it’s more than reasonable to feel the TD has hurt them. Suzuka will reveal all.

@Famine what could the reason be behind Markos occupation within RBR as being Hotelier?

Perhaps that’s where their catering budget went.
 
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Famine
It's also weird to see people suggesting that this means RBR was somehow cheating, with a perfectly legal car, affecting old results in some way.

The car was legal; the FIA said so. Clearly it also knew it was doing something against the intention of the rules to achieve a favourable result, which is what every F1 team ever has tried to do.
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Then what your intent in the original comment? It seemed as if you were implying that they were cheating. You don't normally simply state facts, you opine to an end.
 
Jubby
Then what your intent in the original comment?
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That Red Bull always denied having a flexing wing - actually both at the front and the rear over the years - in full knowledge that it absolutely did flex, just in a manner that the FIA didn't/couldn't test for. They knew it flexed, we knew it flexed, the FIA knew it flexed, but it tested as legal.

Now there's a new TD which tests it differently, and suddenly the car which was fine - and won - at the similar tracks previously this year and last year and at Singapore last year (Perez won, and qualified second; Verstappen ran low on fuel and had to abandon his Q3 lap) is nowhere. Well, not nowhere, but out in Q2.

And that's interesting. Or, at least, it's interesting to me.
Jubby
It seemed as if you were implying that they were cheating.
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Not specifically - but in F1 everyone is cheating :lol:

Like, the whole idea is to cheat as hard as you can without getting caught - there's so many examples from so many teams over the last 40 years, and that's just the ones that did get caught!

They bend (or flex :lol:) every rule they can, find every loophole, find every comma to reinterpret, look for anything that's assumed and not specified, and, yes - sometimes - just straight-up cheat with sensor defeat devices, illegal tech that can't be detected, and so on.

And then they all try to get each other caught for cheating without getting their own cheats caught.

All the while, the FIA is trying to keep up with everything. It's how we got F-ducts, OTBD, and DAS (and how they got banned). Teams read the rules for loopholes, found them, made tech to make them work, ran them, other teams complained, the FIA hemmed and hawed, and rewrote the rules to get rid of the loopholes to ban them.
 
Famine
It kind of has; I recall there being several changes to the front-wing load testing over the years, most recently with the new car regs for 2022, but also midway through 2021, back in 2015, again in 201... 2 I think, also in 2010.

I haven't made any allegations.

However, here's Red Bull Racing's filing at Companies House: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03120645/officers

And here's what Horner said yesterday:


Guess he just forgot that Dr Helmut Marko is one of the two directors of Red Bull Racing, alongside Horner himself...

Maybe not so much surprised, but it's straight crazy that none have been given. I remember when they gave out a five-place penalty (twice) for a guy stopping and doing a practice start in a part of the pit exit that he wasn't supposed to.
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The flexi wings @Famine. Provide your source please.

I don’t waste time on old racist people.
Nobody should. That is RB’s problem.
 
MagpieRacer
Haven’t seen any of either. If it’s just the bumps, then we’ll find out at Suzuka. But given that Mercedes haven’t exactly excelled on bumpy circuits and yet are quicker, plus other bumpy circuits being fine for Red Bull, it’s more than reasonable to feel the TD has hurt them. Suzuka will reveal all.

@Famine what could the reason be behind Markos occupation within RBR as being Hotelier?

Perhaps that’s where their catering budget went.
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Russel went full curbs.
Verstappen needed to drive around them. When he hit the curb (turn 1 combo, that resulted massively in imbalance over/under and oversteer.:
 
Famine
That Red Bull always denied having a flexing wing - actually both at the front and the rear over the years - in full knowledge that it absolutely did flex, just in a manner that the FIA didn't/couldn't test for. They knew it flexed, we knew it flexed, the FIA knew it flexed, but it tested as legal.

Now there's a new TD which tests it differently, and suddenly the car which was fine - and won - at the similar tracks previously this year and last year and at Singapore last year (Perez won, and qualified second; Verstappen ran low on fuel and had to abandon his Q3 lap) is nowhere. Well, not nowhere, but out in Q2.

And that's interesting. Or, at least, it's interesting to me.

Not specifically - but in F1 everyone is cheating :lol:

Like, the whole idea is to cheat as hard as you can without getting caught - there's so many examples from so many teams over the last 40 years, and that's just the ones that did get caught!

They bend (or flex :lol:) every rule they can, find every loophole, find every comma to reinterpret, look for anything that's assumed and not specified, and, yes - sometimes - just straight-up cheat with sensor defeat devices, illegal tech that can't be detected, and so on.

And then they all try to get each other caught for cheating without getting their own cheats caught.
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I understand what you're saying and I don't disagree with most you've stated, but what's the point of telling us what we all already know? As you said, everyone cheats. Usually the only time it's brought up is to either debase the team or suggest that they should get some sort of sanction. Is it one of those or another end?
 
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Jubby
I understand what you're saying and I don't disagree with most you've stated, but what's the point of telling us what we all already know?
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I don't follow.

Are we not discussing the 2023 Singapore Grand Prix? The new TD regarding front wing flexing has come in for this race, and Red Bull - the team most people finger as having the flexiest front wing (but clearly not everyone :lol: ) - is suddenly well off the pace in qualifying for the race.

Which is interesting. And also a point of discussion for the race.

When the race happens tomorrow and everyone's discussing everything that happens, it'll all be discussion about things everybody already knows because everyone's either watching or listening to the race...
 
Famine
I don't follow.

Are we not discussing the 2023 Singapore Grand Prix? The new TD regarding front wing flexing has come in for this race, and Red Bull - the team most people finger as having the flexiest front wing (but clearly not everyone :lol: ) -
is suddenly well off the pace in qualifying for the race.

Which is interesting. And also a point of discussion for the race.

When the race happens tomorrow and everyone's discussing everything that happens, it'll all be discussion about things everybody already knows because everyone's either watching or listening to the race...
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Okay... I understand. Just talk, no agendas... gotcha. Thanks for explaining.
 
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In other news, I've seen the onboard of Stroll's crash now and... I just don't get how he's done that.

He was wide and straddling the kerb, but the car seemed settled when he suddenly turned at the wall. Obviously we can't tell if the rear's sliding (and I've not seen the outside shots from the penultimate corner) but it's such an odd one.
 
Famine
In other news, I've seen the onboard of Stroll's crash now and... I just don't get how he's done that.

He was wide and straddling the kerb, but the car seemed settled when he suddenly turned at the wall. Obviously we can't tell if the rear's sliding (and I've not seen the outside shots from the penultimate corner) but it's such an odd one.
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Looked like he had an option to slow to correct the understeer, but just doubled down, punched the throttle and hoped.
 
:odd:

1694888392994.png
 
Famine
In other news, I've seen the onboard of Stroll's crash now and... I just don't get how he's done that.

He was wide and straddling the kerb, but the car seemed settled when he suddenly turned at the wall. Obviously we can't tell if the rear's sliding (and I've not seen the outside shots from the penultimate corner) but it's such an odd one.
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I don't know why you think the car seemed settled. At the end of the kerb the car jumps, kicking out the back, Stroll tries to correct, car snaps back and goes into the wall. From the end of the kerb there is no moment the car is settled.

Watching on slow mo, it's very obvious the rear jumps out from under him, and quite a lot too.
 
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From my point of view, Stroll over corrected the initial slide way too much and when the rear of the car finally gripped, he just drove it into the wall.
 
PaMu1337
I don't know why you think the car seemed settled. At the end of the kerb the car jumps, kicking out the back, Stroll tries to correct, car snaps back and goes into the wall. From the end of the kerb there is no moment the car is settled.

Watching on slow mo, it's very obvious the rear jumps out from under him, and quite a lot too.
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I can't see it from the onboard at all, although I do note he changes up as the crash starts and there's two bites at the turn-in (which is never good).

There's a brief glimpse of it on the external cam here (easier to see if slowed down to 0.25X :lol: ), and yeah it looks just like @AshenGraey says.
 
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