Forza 4 vs GT5 physics

[Speedster911]

It would have been nice to see what Turn 10 may have achieved had they released the game with just over a 100 cars, but more focus on the physics.

I don't think that would have sat well with most gamers. Hardcore sim enthusiasts may have accepted that, but not majority of gamers.

I think generally, they are moving at a very healthy pace and taking their time to evolve. I don't see why they should rush. It is after all, a business too that needs to continually generate profit.

Would be very interesting to see how things shape up with FM5. I'm sure everybody's high expectations will be met, but it's difficult to say at the moment, as we know very little about the new Xbox hardware.

 

[hennessey86]

Now drive the same car/track combo in Race 07 (I have). That turn is even harder. It's a totally different experience, because the suspension physics are so much more alive in Race 07.

But this thread has nothing to do with race 07(which I love by the way)its a forza vs gt5 physics thread.

 

[Speedster911]

GT had a really good run up until GT4.

What went wrong? Any clues?

Is PD busy working secretly on GT6?

 

[hennessey86]

GT had a really good run up until GT4.

What went wrong? Any clues?

Is PD busy working secretly on GT6?

I was Disapointed with 4 to be honest, played three to death ant it to 98 percent complete and restarted because I didn't want the game to end. They need to freshen things up, add a better damage model, improve sounds, loose the cheesy jazz music, add more European/American cars because we don't need 50 skylines. There is a lot wrong with gt but kaz is too up his own arse to see it I mean look at his statement on the sound issue " they are too realistic" he talks out of his ass.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

And that the PD online team actually have a difficult job making seasonals...

 

[imported_vwpilot]

I dont know, I'm not saying GT5 is right, but there is a lot to be desired for me in FM4.

There are cars that simply do not act like they should. Cars are WAAAY too tail happy in FM4 and go into oversteer much too easily. Cars that should understeer like pigs will whip into oversteer with little input. Cars I have driven hard do not act the same in FM4 as in real life.

However, that said, its all got to be tempered a bit in order to be fun. There is no way they could ever actually test and model every car they put in the game. Also, when they add suspension mods, what are they adding? As different brands will cause different feels, so you really cant be just like real life unless you're doing millions of permutations for all the different cars.

It is still just a game in the end.

 

[Exorcet]

I dont know, I'm not saying GT5 is right, but there is a lot to be desired for me in FM4.

There are cars that simply do not act like they should. Cars are WAAAY too tail happy in FM4 and go into oversteer much too easily. Cars that should understeer like pigs will whip into oversteer with little input. Cars I have driven hard do not act the same in FM4 as in real life.

However, that said, its all got to be tempered a bit in order to be fun. There is no way they could ever actually test and model every car they put in the game. Also, when they add suspension mods, what are they adding? As different brands will cause different feels, so you really cant be just like real life unless you're doing millions of permutations for all the different cars.

It is still just a game in the end.

Which cars in Forza?

In GT5, the Saleen S7 and Speed 12 stand out as pieces of sheer insanity in terms of how fake they feel (and the S7 should be totally undriveable owing to its weight distribution, which is opposite of reality, but aside from the apparent tires made of butter, it's fine).

I don't find any cars in Forza to be messed up to that level (I have a number to try though).

Also, while Forza suspension surely does not mimic any real world suspension, it should be easy enough to model generic suspension modifications of some form.

 

[imported_vwpilot]

Which cars in Forza?

In GT5, the Saleen S7 and Speed 12 stand out as pieces of sheer insanity in terms of how fake they feel (and the S7 should be totally undriveable owing to its weight distribution, which is opposite of reality, but aside from the apparent tires made of butter, it's fine).

You've driven these cars in real life at speed?

I certainly cannot comment on the supercars because, unfortunately, I dont own any or have access to them.

However, I have an S4 that I've driven at speed and feels very different than the Forza car (it pushes in real life like mad), also I've autocrossed a couple different CRX's in real life and again, I've found the one in GT5 to be a little closer to the one in Forza in actual feel and the way it responds and you can probably tell by my name, I've had quite a few VWs and I dont find many of the ones in game to feel like the real life counterparts.

As said, everything in FM4 is waaaay too tail happy. FWD cars dont snap into oversteer in real life like they do in this game unless you really set them up to do so.

Its just too prevalent in this game. Every car I set up, I have to add the adjustable suspension and sway bars and soften up the rear of the car (oddly, basically the same amount for every single car which is also not realistic) in order to get the rear of the car to stay planted in any kind of high speed cornering or maneuvering.

Its just too much. It seems like their all set up in game to cater to people that want to drift. Cars in real life are set up a lot more neutral than they seem to be in this game.

But hey, its a game and understeer is way more boring and "safe" than oversteer, which is why real cars are set up that way. Your average driver can control understeer better than oversteer. So its likely that way in game to make it more interesting rather than boring, like real life.

 

[Wolfe]

I'm with you on that vwpilot. It's easy to drift everything in this game. I recently summarized my thoughts on FM4's physics on another thread, I might as well share that:

Suspension modelling is "flat" and not very communicative; rebound is muted, allowing you to jump your car like a movie star without consequence. Tires are a bit too eager to let go under power (I'm not alone on this), and are awfully friendly once the limit has been passed; if you're fast enough with the steering, you can drift anything with aplomb. Drifting is also made easy by a "glitch" that apparently reduces angular momentum in quick directional changes; you won't get the sort of irrecoverable tank-slappers you can find in true simulators. Corner-entry oversteer is nerfed, probably to make things easier; mid- and rear-engined cars are docile little lambs, no matter their real-world reputation.

 

[hennessey86]

You've driven these cars in real life at speed?

I certainly cannot comment on the supercars because, unfortunately, I dont own any or have access to them.

However, I have an S4 that I've driven at speed and feels very different than the Forza car (it pushes in real life like mad), also I've autocrossed a couple different CRX's in real life and again, I've found the one in GT5 to be a little closer to the one in Forza in actual feel and the way it responds and you can probably tell by my name, I've had quite a few VWs and I dont find many of the ones in game to feel like the real life counterparts.

As said, everything in FM4 is waaaay too tail happy. FWD cars dont snap into oversteer in real life like they do in this game unless you really set them up to do so.

Its just too prevalent in this game. Every car I set up, I have to add the adjustable suspension and sway bars and soften up the rear of the car (oddly, basically the same amount for every single car which is also not realistic) in order to get the rear of the car to stay planted in any kind of high speed cornering or maneuvering.

Its just too much. It seems like their all set up in game to cater to people that want to drift. Cars in real life are set up a lot more neutral than they seem to be in this game.

But hey, its a game and understeer is way more boring and "safe" than oversteer, which is why real cars are set up that way. Your average driver can control understeer better than oversteer. So its likely that way in game to make it more interesting rather than boring, like real life.

A lot of ff cars have very bad lift off over steer which forza simulates, gt5 doesn't. Maybe forza has it a bit to over the top but at least they have tried to model it. I can also grunted you have never pushed a car as hard as you would push in game.

 

[hennessey86]

I'm with you on that vwpilot. It's easy to drift everything in this game. I recently summarized my thoughts on FM4's physics on another thread, I might as well share that:

That's wrong, drive forza using 900 degrees and simulation steering and once you get side ways it is very very difficult to get it back again

 

[Exorcet]

You've driven these cars in real life at speed?

Do I have to? Sure there would be some advantages to that, but then there are things you can infer just from physics. For one thing, both the S7 and Speed 12 in GT5 suffer from extremely low traction. You can power limit them to the same power as other cars or tune different cars to their power and you won't get anywhere near the same performance. Their tires simply give up before those on other cars, even on cars that probably should have worse performance. This is especially strange in a game where tires are just grip multipliers. From playing with the ballast I know that F/R weight dist plays a role in grip, and this might explain the S7, but the Speed 12 is 50/50 if I recall. It also produces decent downforce yet is slippery like butter.

It's not even that the cars are unruly, their traction is just so low for no apparent reason.

Other less than convincing cars in GT are the muscle cars and FWD drive cars. Weight transfer is severely limited when driving them. All they do is understeer all day. That's it. The 4000 lb 70's cars with most of the weight in front never want to break loose in the rear and they'll weave side to side all day without becoming upset. And lifting off the throttle in a FWD car, no matter how abrupt, will only make you turn tighter.

As said, everything in FM4 is waaaay too tail happy. FWD cars dont snap into oversteer in real life like they do in this game unless you really set them up to do so.

Well I don't like FWD very much so I haven't driven a lot of them in Forza, but the Ka, which was my first car was exactly as you said. You had to be rough to get it to oversteer. When driving sloppy, it would spin. If I drove with care (and I don't mean super conservative, just not flicking the car through a turn and going on/off with gas/brake) there was no problem. I actually think most of the cars I've driven aren't tail happy enough, but they feel pretty convincing. In fact they all feel distinct, which isn't something I can really say about cars in GT5.

Its just too prevalent in this game. Every car I set up, I have to add the adjustable suspension and sway bars and soften up the rear of the car (oddly, basically the same amount for every single car which is also not realistic) in order to get the rear of the car to stay planted in any kind of high speed cornering or maneuvering.

Interesting. Only my tuned Ford GT so far has made me want to dial in understeer. My 800 PI Viper is fine. And the SSC was like putty in my hands when I respected the throttle despite having 1200 hp. I could probably push that car harder though.

Its just too much. It seems like their all set up in game to cater to people that want to drift. Cars in real life are set up a lot more neutral than they seem to be in this game.

I disagree here. The cars are pretty balanced in my opinion. A couple of them I might want to make a bit looser even.

 

[Wolfe]

That's wrong, drive forza using 900 degrees and simulation steering and once you get side ways it is very very difficult to get it back again

Okay, but you wheel guys have complained about subpar FFB and steering angle issues for months. It makes sense to me.

It's not a steering thing anyway, if you were to try Live for Speed with a gamepad you should see the differences immediately. Forza helps prevent you from throwing the car into irrecoverable spins, losing the tail from excessive oversteer angle, or whipping into progressively worse tank-slappers like a runaway pendulum. You just can't make the sort of mistakes you can make in higher-level simulators. The physics engine won't allow it, no matter how wild you are with the steering. It's a bit easier.

Any difficulty in playing FM4 with a wheel is probably input-related. After all, on hardcore PC sims, playing with a controller is the more difficult choice. Overcorrection from lack of FFB self-steer? Vague steering feel? Only you guys could say for sure; I'm a Logitech guy.

Other less than convincing cars in GT are the muscle cars and FWD drive cars. Weight transfer is severely limited when driving them. All they do is understeer all day. That's it. The 4000 lb 70's cars with most of the weight in front never want to break loose in the rear and they'll weave side to side all day without becoming upset. And lifting off the throttle in a FWD car, no matter how abrupt, will only make you turn tighter.

One thing that was clear from my playtime with GT5 is that the Standard cars are all very generic and drive pretty much the same. We all know they didn't have the same investment of time and effort as the Premiums. Those sound like Standard cars you're describing.

I actually think most of the cars I've driven aren't tail happy enough, but they feel pretty convincing. In fact they all feel distinct, which isn't something I can really say about cars in GT5.

Yeah, even though everything is drift-friendly, there are some aspects of handling that are just too grippy. In particular, mid- and rear-engined cars should be more of a handful. I want to see more corner-entry oversteer in general.

I agree that each car feels distinct in FM4. It's not the best of any game I've played, but it's the best of any Gran Turismo or Forza, for sure. That feeling will only become clearer as the series progresses.

 

[Exorcet]

One thing that was clear from my playtime with GT5 is that the Standard cars are all very generic and drive pretty much the same. We all know they didn't have the same investment of time and effort as the Premiums. Those sound like Standard cars you're describing.

Physics between standard and premium are the same though. Modeling might be different, the flawed physics characteristics from GT4 in specific cars are still there, while as far as I know, no premium car has those issues (one glaring example is the Viper SRT-10, both have the same engine, but the standard powerband is completely wrong).

I recall one of the first seasonals had you drive the 70's Challenger. From what I remember, it didn't feel very different from the standard cars. It definitely didn't feel like the muscle cars in Forza. I haven't driven the Forza Challenger yet though.

 

[Wolfe]

I wasn't implying that there's nothing wrong with the Premiums, if that's what you thought. GT5 has deep-rooted issues that remain to be sorted out.

The physics engine doesn't change between Standard/Premium, but the depth and accuracy of data probably do. That's what it feels like. I drove a Standard TVR and it understeered like a BMW 7-series with bald front tires.

 

[Exorcet]

The physics engine doesn't change between Standard/Premium, but the depth and accuracy of data probably do.

Replace probably with maybe, and that's what I was saying.

 

[imported_vwpilot]

Do I have to?

If you're going to be making any claims about how realistic the game is then yes you should have.

Like is said, I make no claims about many of the cars because I've never driven them, but cars I have driven allow me to compare their FM4 counterparts and make legit comparisons between real life and the game.

That experience allows me to feel that there are things about FM4 that are not realistic, and that is that the cars seem to oversteer way too much.

I didn't say gt5 was better, I said that FM4 was unrealistic in this specific way.

But hey, it is just a game after all.

 

[hennessey86]

If you're going to be making any claims about how realistic the game is then yes you should have.

Like is said, I make no claims about many of the cars because I've never driven them, but cars I have driven allow me to compare their FM4 counterparts and make legit comparisons between real life and the game.

That experience allows me to feel that there are things about FM4 that are not realistic, and that is that the cars seem to oversteer way too much.

I didn't say gt5 was better, I said that FM4 was unrealistic in this specific way.

But hey, it is just a game after all.

Driving a car in real life and then playing the most realistic simulator in the world would still feel different and Un realistic, the seat of the pants feel, g forces, vibrations effecting vision etc. you would never push a car in real life as hard as you would in forza or gt o any racing ame for that matter. Fear would get the better of anyone except a racing driver.

 

[Exorcet]

If you're going to be making any claims about how realistic the game is then yes you should have.

What makes a simulator realistic is the physics. Commenting on them directly is the best way to measure up a sim.

Like is said, I make no claims about many of the cars because I've never driven them, but cars I have driven allow me to compare their FM4 counterparts and make legit comparisons between real life and the game.

Well, they would still be somewhat squishy subjective comparisons. There would be some value to comparing how it feels to drive in real life vs reality, but before you can really gain anything from doing that you need to understand the physics behind it all (not saying you don't).

Also don't forget to take into account what is different besides the physics, like the lack of feedback from the car, the accuracy of the track, weather conditions, etc.

That experience allows me to feel that there are things about FM4 that are not realistic, and that is that the cars seem to oversteer way too much.

To test something like this, hard data would probably be better than a feeling. Maybe something like taking the Forza car and the real car and then finding out at what g load they start to break away and then timing how quickly it happens.

the seat of the pants feel, g forces, vibrations effecting vision etc

I agree that this could impact the feeling of realism even if the physics were spot on.

 

[Scaff]

In particular, mid- and rear-engined cars should be more of a handful. I want to see more corner-entry oversteer in general.

For many mid-engined cars yes, but rear-engined? Not unless you lift, the vast majority of RR cars will understeer heavily on corner entry. Its one of the things that FM4 has got right for the likes of the Yellowbird that GT5 has hideously wrong.

If you're going to be making any claims about how realistic the game is then yes you should have.

Like is said, I make no claims about many of the cars because I've never driven them, but cars I have driven allow me to compare their FM4 counterparts and make legit comparisons between real life and the game.

You mention road driving and auto-cross, but have you much experience of full track driving or proving grounds?

I ask because the additional space and speed (autocross is still comparability slow and tight) makes a huge difference.

While you are quite right that road cars are tuned for understeer, they are also tuned to understeer on a cambered roads under the kind of loads encountered at mainly road legal speeds and lateral loads limited by normal road widths. Very little of which you will find on a track.

That experience allows me to feel that there are things about FM4 that are not realistic, and that is that the cars seem to oversteer way too much.

I didn't say gt5 was better, I said that FM4 was unrealistic in this specific way.

But hey, it is just a game after all.

I've a few hundred hours on track and at proving grounds and have to be honest disagree with you, while neither is 'right', FM4 (and the four is important) gets the basic traits right far more often than any release in the GT series.

As speed and lateral loads increase (and they do quickly on a track) and you turn, the yawing car will want to obey Newton's laws and continue doing what its already doing. Oversteer is much much easier to initiate and experience in pretty much all cars at these speeds and loads. Even a FWD car that at low speeds and loads will only slightly pop the rear out when you lift off, can suddenly throw the back out far quicker as the forces acting increase.

 

[Speedster911]

I was Disapointed with 4 to be honest, played three to death ant it to 98 percent complete and restarted because I didn't want the game to end. They need to freshen things up, add a better damage model, improve sounds, loose the cheesy jazz music, add more European/American cars because we don't need 50 skylines. There is a lot wrong with gt but kaz is too up his own arse to see it I mean look at his statement on the sound issue " they are too realistic" he talks out of his ass.

Whaaa?! The guy is definitely talking out his tail pipe!!

I don't have very high expectations from a sixth GT game, if it is indeed in development. But I expect the world from FM5. And I have a darn good feeling they're going to exceed just about everybody's expectations.

 

[Wolfe]

For many mid-engined cars yes, but rear-engined? Not unless you lift, the vast majority of RR cars will understeer heavily on corner entry. Its one of the things that FM4 has got right for the likes of the Yellowbird that GT5 has hideously wrong.

I have to mention first that I've never driven any RR in FM4 that wasn't on the disc(s). I skipped all DLC after April. No Porsches, no Yellowbird.

Lifting and diving into the corner is what I have in mind. From years of owning a RWD and driving RWDs almost exclusively in my sims, you could say I have an oversteer-oriented driving style. When I enter a corner the way I would in Live for Speed, or Enthusia, or in the real world, FM4 tends to just give me understeer/grip where I expect oversteer. I have to block out my "steer with the throttle" mindset in favor of a "time to manage understeer" mindset. It screws with my racing lines.

We both know LFS and EPR are biased toward oversteer, but tossing mid- or rear-engined cars around in FM4 just isn't terribly punishing. Until you get on the throttle, of course; power oversteer is large and in charge in this game.

I agree that GT5 sits at the opposite extreme. As I recall, if you so much as hint at weight transfer in a mid-/rear-engined car you go spinning like a top.

 

[hennessey86]

Whaaa?! The guy is definitely talking out his tail pipe!!

I don't have very high expectations from a sixth GT game, if it is indeed in development. But I expect the world from FM5. And I have a darn good feeling they're going to exceed just about everybody's expectations.

I was talking about gt not forza

 

[Scaff]

I have to mention first that I've never driven any RR in FM4 that wasn't on the disc(s). I skipped all DLC after April. No Porsches, no Yellowbird.

You should at the very least go for the Yellowbird - its lovely.

Lifting and diving into the corner is what I have in mind.

OK - yep with most (but not all) RWD/RR cars you should get a good dollop of oversteer and I must confess I do find it in FM4.

Is it 100% right? No not really, but at least its doing it which in comparison to GT5 is a major step in the right direction.

From years of owning a RWD and driving RWDs almost exclusively in my sims, you could say I have an oversteer-oriented driving style. When I enter a corner the way I would in Live for Speed, or Enthusia, or in the real world, FM4 tends to just give me understeer/grip where I expect oversteer. I have to block out my "steer with the throttle" mindset in favor of a "time to manage understeer" mindset. It screws with my racing lines.

We both know LFS and EPR are biased toward oversteer, but tossing mid- or rear-engined cars around in FM4 just isn't terribly punishing. Until you get on the throttle, of course; power oversteer is large and in charge in this game.

I actually find FM4 and LFS to be fairly similar in broad strokes in this area, and while I do still love (and play) EPR it is still a little to tail happy at times.

I've certainly come across lift off-oversteer getting the better of me at times in FM4, again its not always to the right level but at least its in the right direction (no pun intended).

I agree that GT5 sits at the opposite extreme. As I recall, if you so much as hint at weight transfer in a mid-/rear-engined car you go spinning like a top.

The issue with most RR and MR cars in GT is down to the tyres (again) and that differing tyre widths clearly are not factored in at all. Rear tyres on MR are almost without exception wider than the fronts and RR to an ever larger degree, yet in GT if you have the same compound on the front and back you get the same base level of grip. As a result the rears always cut loose first, even when they shouldn't.

The Yellowbird in GT5 as a result is just an oversteering nightmare, turn-in and it oversteers, brake and it oversteers, accelerate and it oversteers, etc. Its totally and utterly one dimensional and doesn't drive like a RR car at all (yet some people assume beacause its oversteering all the time it must be right).

In FM4 you need to balance the understeer of the car, which is present on corner entry and on throttle application due to the wide rear tyres and rear weight distribution, with its desire to oversteer massively when you lift. As a result you have to very much adapt to the car and it drives with all the characteristics of a 911 (as do the Porsche's). Its not 100% accurate, nor did I ever expect it to be, its is however a very reasonable simulation of how vehicles of this layout should behave (and that's everything GT is not with cars of this nature).

 

[Wolfe]

You should at the very least go for the Yellowbird - its lovely.

I would, but Horizon's got it covered.

OK - yep with most (but not all) RWD/RR cars you should get a good dollop of oversteer and I must confess I do find it in FM4.

Is it 100% right? No not really, but at least its doing it which in comparison to GT5 is a major step in the right direction.

I'm sure the fact that I only had the sticky modern Rufs and asthmatic Delorean at my disposal affected my ability to find this. 👍 I've just never felt enough of it in any of the cars I've driven in FM4.

In FM4 you need to balance the understeer of the car, which is present on corner entry and on throttle application due to the wide rear tyres and rear weight distribution, with its desire to oversteer massively when you lift. As a result you have to very much adapt to the car and it drives with all the characteristics of a 911 (as do the Porsche's). Its not 100% accurate, nor did I ever expect it to be, its is however a very reasonable simulation of how vehicles of this layout should behave (and that's everything GT is not with cars of this nature).

I've been similarly satisfied with the Yellowbird in Horizon, and the 595 Abarth is delightfully lairy! I haven't driven a virtual car that's been that much of a handful since EPR. Squatting the RRs and riding that wave of traction out of a corner is great fun. It's even better when dancing around the Infection arenas! The CTR, 595, Beetle, and RGT8 are four of my most-used cars.

With the tweaks that were made and the differences between a road and a track, I wasn't sure that my experiences in FH could be traced back to the CTR/Porsches in FM4. Okay, I'll be honest, I'm enjoying this game so much I didn't even think about it.

However, with what you've shared here I've certainly got to give FM4 some credit on the rear-engined cars.

 

[justchyllan]

Just last week I sold my PS3 and gear. Forza has taken me over.

It feels more composed. GT5 almost feels so hardcore its unreal. Driving a stock 350z it would feel like my rear wheels are 1" wide. Too in depth maintenance and every... Over the top. Not to say it was a bad game I just enjoy FM4 so much more. They both have their flaws but I feel FM4 is focused where it needs to be.

 

[hennessey86]

Another thing I have noticed with GT5 is the cars are far too stable, you have to get to the absolute limit before you get any kind of traction loss which is unrealistic as traction loss is progressive. The tire model needs to be chucked out and a new one need implementing. Forza 5 I am sure will improve once again taking forza even further away from the GT series. Forza deserves more sales than it actually gets, GT5s sales astound me. The series has some loyal fans that's for sure. Maybe we are the minority, we who can look at the flaws in a game that they like because it seems the majority of gt fans cannot see the flaws that are plainly there.

 

[Speedster911]

Well put gentlemen!

GT has been around a lot longer than Forza. You can thank the loyal fans for the astounding sales.

And yeah, FM5 is simply going to better what FM4 has to offer. These guys innovate by sizable, yet realistic increments, as has been evident with every iteration of Forza.

I definitely see Forza coming out on top, as the next-gen console sim wars are about to begin.

I was talking about gt not forza

So was I! What lead you to believe I was talking about Forza?!!

Wake up and smell the beans maaaan!!

 

[TomBrady]

It's hard to say over all which has the better physics model, but in one area I had noticed was in FM4, It's best to have all your braking done before the corner and accelerate through it, otherwise you'll slide and lose speed. In GT5 you can really chuck a car into a corner and don't have to worry as much. In one other aspect, I feel in FM4 it's easier to recover a car from a slide, in GT5... if it gets squirrely, it's over...

Not at all true. Whether you use controller or not, sliding cars is more natural thing to do in GT5 than in any other racing game or sim besides netkar Pro. One of the many reasons why GT5 is the best on console. Unless you're using the racing soft tires every noob online likes. Those tires are so unrealistically grippy that it allows you to do the impossible and you'd have to be going so fast when you lose grip, that yes it would be near impossible to save it in anything but a snap counter steer correction.

So that's one big advantage fm4 holds over gt5, it doesn't have any overly grippy sets of tires, but if you know how to use GT5 (no aids, appropriate tires for the car), it's much more realistic where the rubber meets the road, vehicle dynamics, and most of all realistic car characteristics. I've raced a few cars at lime rock and it's amazing how accurate GT5 feels. The same cars feel totally different in forza but forza's not really meant to be a sim, it's just marketed as one. You want a proper sim got to the PC and get netkar pro or iracing. LFS will suffice as well

 

[hennessey86]

Not at all true. Whether you use controller or not, sliding cars is more natural thing to do in GT5 than in any other racing game or sim besides netkar Pro. One of the many reasons why GT5 is the best on console. Unless you're using the racing soft tires every noob online likes. Those tires are so unrealistically grippy that it allows you to do the impossible and you'd have to be going so fast when you lose grip, that yes it would be near impossible to save it in anything but a snap counter steer correction.

So that's one big advantage fm4 holds over gt5, it doesn't have any overly grippy sets of tires, but if you know how to use GT5 (no aids, appropriate tires for the car), it's much more realistic where the rubber meets the road, vehicle dynamics, and most of all realistic car characteristics. I've raced a few cars at lime rock and it's amazing how accurate GT5 feels. The same cars feel totally different in forza but forza's not really meant to be a sim, it's just marketed as one. You want a proper sim got to the PC and get netkar pro or iracing. LFS will suffice as well

I disagree, do you play forza with a wheel.............or are you another gt5 player who owns a Logitech wheel and plays forza with a pad.