Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

[artboy76]

Hey i get it you really hate gt5/PD not just from the post above but from practically every post you make about gt, i just cant believe you think gt is a half assed piece of garbage when i can do this

and not have any exaggerated framerate problems , what i see is a game company putting so much passion into their game they decided to model how the dust blows in synced with the actual weather of that region. im glad you like forza because its a great game but its really incredible how you have borked your sense reality to fight this imaginary game war

Even the most flawed of games you can pick out a few moments where it's sublime, I'd say the game that wins hands down for that is shift2, beats GT5 to the "so close to my virtual racing perfection" award.
Even race pro is worth dusting off occasionally for a blast.
Sadly though we have to judge games as a whole really if we are doing a 'vs' senario, and in that case Forza wins.
like I say if we were doing it on single moments the your Gt5 nurb'ring moment is for me trumped by Shift2 1980s full Hockenheim track in helmet cam in a GT3 car with 16 drivers on track heading for first s bend.... now that's visceral gaming.

 

[RedSuinit]

GT5 The Real Driving Simulator

So real, we will even add 10 seconds onto your time for using a FFB wheel and having 12 friends. What? You thought you could get online and have competitive races with more than 10 people? Please. You must have the wrong game.

And Forza 4 doesn't have issues? I have noticed all of GTs flaws being pointed out, now I will do the same for Forza 4, just to give some of you with extreme bias some perspective.

Half of the cars have something SIGNIFICANT wrong with them, for example the 95' MR2. The steering wheel is on the right hand side of the car, but the speedometer is in MPH instead of KPH, and it goes up to 180 even though the original speedos only went up to 160. Boost gauges show that you are making boost in neutral, or when you aren't moving during the countdown to the start. Errors from previous games are STILL there, even after being made aware of the issues during previous games. They can't seem to decide if they want to select drivers side based on country of origin or not. There is no consistency there at all, some Japanese cars are left hand drive, some are right. There is STILL no replay for split screen. STILL. See, all of this nit picking can be done to forza too. It goes beyond the heart of the thread. (and this is a very short, quickly thrown together list if I kept going it would take a lot more time than I have right now)

 

[artboy76]

And Forza 4 doesn't have issues? I have noticed all of GTs flaws being pointed out, now I will do the same for Forza 4, just to give some of you with extreme bias some perspective.

Half of the cars have something SIGNIFICANT wrong with them, for example the 95' MR2. The steering wheel is on the right hand side of the car, but the speedometer is in MPH instead of KPH, and it goes up to 180 even though the original speedos only went up to 160. Boost gauges show that you are making boost in neutral, or when you aren't moving during the countdown to the start. Errors from previous games are STILL there, even after being made aware of the issues during previous games. They can't seem to decide if they want to select drivers side based on country of origin or not. There is no consistency there at all, some Japanese cars are left hand drive, some are right. There is STILL no replay for split screen. STILL. See, all of this nit picking can be done to forza too. It goes beyond the heart of the thread. (and this is a very short, quickly thrown together list if I kept going it would take a lot more time than I have right now)

that's nit picking!! being offended by a Triple A title game having 800 standard cars, isn't nitpicking fella......
I have given Forza flaws in earlier posts chap. no bias here, just that Gts are Significant....

 

[Scaff]

And Forza 4 doesn't have issues?

I don't believe you will find many people here who would make such a claim, please quote them for me and I will address it as well.

I have noticed all of GTs flaws being pointed out, now I will do the same for Forza 4, just to give some of you with extreme bias some perspective.

As long as it follows the guidelines in the first post and the AUP then that is fine.

Half of the cars have something SIGNIFICANT wrong with them,

Looks like you have fallen at the first hurdle.

Half the cars!

Would you now (as required by the first post) please provide proof that at minimum 50% of the cars in FM4 have significant problems with them.

Its a rather big claim and as such its going to need to be backed up.

for example the 95' MR2. The steering wheel is on the right hand side of the car, but the speedometer is in MPH instead of KPH, and it goes up to 180 even though the original speedos only went up to 160. Boost gauges show that you are making boost in neutral, or when you aren't moving during the countdown to the start. Errors from previous games are STILL there, even after being made aware of the issues during previous games. They can't seem to decide if they want to select drivers side based on country of origin or not. There is no consistency there at all, some Japanese cars are left hand drive, some are right.

To which you are going to get people replying that 80% of the cars in GT5 have a cardboard cut-out for an interior.

I don't even care about that in GT5 and I know your going to get that one back. Seriously interior errors is not a good route to go down if you are addressing GT5 vs FM4 issues.

There is STILL no replay for split screen. STILL. See, all of this nit picking can be done to forza too. It goes beyond the heart of the thread. (and this is a very short, quickly thrown together list if I kept going it would take a lot more time than I have right now)

Please feel free to do so, it is after all the heart of this thread, just keep the first post and the AUP in mind when you do.


Scaff

 

[artboy76]

BTW, the only issue with LHD or RHD cars is in real life it may take time to get used to different had got changing gear , also on roads you will struggle more if car isn't correct for country.

in a computer game it matters not a jot for either of those senarios... lol!!! keep them comming bud... hee hee.

Biggest flaw with Forza for me is they need to be pushed to get interior as good as shift 2 and even a helmet cam option, better alloy selection, wide arch body kits, upgradable cockpits.
as you can see if that's my main gripes with forza 4, you can how disappointed I am with GT5. lol.

 

[cuco33]

And Forza 4 doesn't have issues? I have noticed all of GTs flaws being pointed out, now I will do the same for Forza 4, just to give some of you with extreme bias some perspective.

Half of the cars have something SIGNIFICANT wrong with them, for example the 95' MR2. The steering wheel is on the right hand side of the car, but the speedometer is in MPH instead of KPH, and it goes up to 180 even though the original speedos only went up to 160. Boost gauges show that you are making boost in neutral, or when you aren't moving during the countdown to the start. Errors from previous games are STILL there, even after being made aware of the issues during previous games. They can't seem to decide if they want to select drivers side based on country of origin or not. There is no consistency there at all, some Japanese cars are left hand drive, some are right. There is STILL no replay for split screen. STILL. See, all of this nit picking can be done to forza too. It goes beyond the heart of the thread. (and this is a very short, quickly thrown together list if I kept going it would take a lot more time than I have right now)

I think quite a few people here have pointed out flaws in FM4 a few times already, along with GT5 of course. I don't recall if I did in this thread but the mk4 VW Jetta/Bora has an issue with the instrument cluster where after being modified the speedo and tach gauges stay pinned at max after a certain speed. I've heard it's a KPH/MPH conversion issue but not sure. This issue carried over from past Forzas with this car. But personally I'd rather have this bug/glitch than having no cockpits in 80% of the cars, only to be patched in with black silhouettes. I've even pointed out that the VW Corrado when equipped with the full Oettinger kit... it just looks strange. The grill looks completely wrong and smooshed down. They used a squashed VW emblem instead of the Oettinger emblem that the Oetty grill comes with.

BTW, the '95 MR2 speedo cluster does go to 180 in real life. The MPH/KPH mixup is obviously a problem though and probably why you see an issue. Errors in GT5's standard cars also carried over, like the Volvo wagon weighing 400lbs more than it does in real life, but I think FM4's error carry overs are more. It does get to be a bit of nitpicking when you look at small things, or big ones like premium vehicles having the wrong engine in GT5 (i.e. the V10 R8 with the V8 motor in the bay).

If you want to complain about consistency, or shall I say lack thereof... you only need to look at GT5 since it has none.

 

[Jamezinho]

I have to say, highlighting the cockpit inaccuracies of Forza 4 is a rather weak and ill-advised avenue to go down when referencing to GT5. If you expect 100% accuracy with full working gauges then you end up with a game that could take six years or more to make. Oh wait.....

Something like which side the steering wheel is on is a non-issue to me. This is a racing game, not a public roads simulator, so what does it matter? It's an American game so obviously many Japanese models (and I'm assuming British cars too?) will be left-hand drive as they used American examples to model the cars.

Seriously, it doesn't bother me if a car isn't 100% accurate, whether it be interior, exterior or both. I've driven only a handful of the cars in Forza 4 in the real world, and even then not the performance versions. Therefore as long as the cars look, sound and feel close enough to what I know of them then I'm happy.

 

[t.o.]

I have to say, highlighting the cockpit inaccuracies of Forza 4 is a rather weak and ill-advised avenue to go down when referencing to GT5. If you expect 100% accuracy with full working gauges then you end up with a game that could take six years or more to make. Oh wait.....

Something like which side the steering wheel is on is a non-issue to me. This is a racing game, not a public roads simulator, so what does it matter? It's an American game so obviously many Japanese models (and I'm assuming British cars too?) will be left-hand drive as they used American examples to model the cars.

Seriously, it doesn't bother me if a car isn't 100% accurate, whether it be interior, exterior or both. I've driven only a handful of the cars in Forza 4 in the real world, and even then not the performance versions. Therefore as long as the cars look, sound and feel close enough to what I know of them then I'm happy.

I'm going to be honest. If you have to show me a "before and after"' picture to point out a difference in either game then it's pretty much nitpicking. If the error is as obvious an elephant walking through a McDonalds then it's worthy of discussion, debate and criticisms. Like said before, a black card board cutout using the default gauges as a cockpit seriously stinks. The second hand on an analog dash clock being red when it's orange in real life is hardly worth bringing up.

 

[HBK]

Many FM4 cockpits suffer from small glitches (mostly gauge calibration errors). Nothing serious, certainly not half of the cars, but I'd guess a 20 to 30% of the total car roster.

No big deal, but it's there.

 

[newbielives]

Funny you mentioned Shift, I've actually been playing a lot of Shift 2 lately and just did a night race on the ring a couple minutes ago. Sure shift2 is really fun but not for one second do believe I'm not just playing a game. This is with the game maxed out graphically running at 100FPS or more on my i52500K ATI6950. It's nice but the car models don't even come close to GT's or Forza and the phsyics, while fun, there is this horrible dead weight feel to it. To this day, Driving the Ring with time change in GT5 has been the only time had a game made me feel like I was on vacation driving the green hell.

Even the most flawed of games you can pick out a few moments where it's sublime, I'd say the game that wins hands down for that is shift2, beats GT5 to the "so close to my virtual racing perfection" award.
Even race pro is worth dusting off occasionally for a blast.
Sadly though we have to judge games as a whole really if we are doing a 'vs' senario, and in that case Forza wins.
like I say if we were doing it on single moments the your Gt5 nurb'ring moment is for me trumped by Shift2 1980s full Hockenheim track in helmet cam in a GT3 car with 16 drivers on track heading for first s bend.... now that's visceral gaming.

 

[Scaff]

and not have any exaggerated framerate problems

Visually when GT5 is great, its just that.

However when framerate issues do crop up they are not exagerated.

When digital foundry tested this the found that GT5 can hit mid 45-50 fps with no rain and in the day.


Source - http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/forza-4-vs-gran-turismo-5

Now that's not a busy screen in GT5, yet its dropped to below 50 fps, its doesn't do it all the time of course, however that it does it is not deniable.

However its when it night and raining that the real problems start to occur, when GT5 starts hitting sub-30 fps, and 3D drops that more.

Source - http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-gran-turismo-5-tech-analysis?page=3

Now a more than 50% drop in frame rate is significant, and certainly not exaggeration, its off putting enough that I can't remember the last time I ran at night with rain.

Frame rate is important to a lot of people, if your lucky enough to not be one of them, then that's great, but please do not try and dismiss what can happen to the frame rate.


Scaff

 

[I'm Motarded]

Wow, in the image scaff posted above is says the FPS drops to 16 when in 3D mode! Again wow, I do some PC sim racing and dropping to that speed makes a game unplayable for me. Even 24 fps is quite bad, especially when it's not constant an fluctuates rapidly between anything higher.

That said, Forza is not without FPS problems either. When your car 'ghosts' in online lobbies with a fair few other cars on-track the FPS does stutter quite badly. Thankfully this can be solved by setting collisions 'always on'. It then becomes a non-issue. Another thing worthy of praise is even with the FPS stutter in ghosting situations I've yet to see a single screen tear.

 

[Vaxxtx]

Funny you mentioned Shift, I've actually been playing a lot of Shift 2 lately and just did a night race on the ring a couple minutes ago. Sure shift2 is really fun but not for one second do believe I'm not just playing a game. This is with the game maxed out graphically running at 100FPS or more on my i52500K ATI6950. It's nice but the car models don't even come close to GT's or Forza and the phsyics, while fun, there is this horrible dead weight feel to it. To this day, Driving the Ring with time change in GT5 has been the only time had a game made me feel like I was on vacation driving the green hell.

So the car sounds, and the carboardbox "thump" of hitting other cars or a wall doesnt drag you back to the reality that you are playing a game?

 

[newbielives]

Not usually since my goal is to drive clean offline and online

So the car sounds, and the carboardbox "thump" of hitting other cars or a wall doesnt drag you back to the reality that you are playing a game?

 

[I'm Motarded]

While were on the subject of nitpicky inaccuracies.. The forza Race version of the Nissan R390 comes with a livery that was never placed on that car that year. Good thing we can change it to whatever we choose/have the skills to create.

Example

I have no idea if this is period correct or even existed, but it looks cool so I bought it and put it on my car

Racing in a spec race where everybody has the same livery, race number, or no livery only different colours at all not only makes it hard to tell who's who, it also breaks the immersion somewhat.

 

[Vaxxtx]

Not usually since my goal is to drive clean offline and online

Yeah...thats pretty much of goal of most game racers...and real life racers as well. You see though, contact always happens. In real life and in games.

So aside from the contact "thump" in GT5, the sounds are still there. The really bad engine, tire, and tranny whine. Also, so is the on/off clutch. So even that doesnt tell you that you are playing a game?

 

[newbielives]

As much as i like shift2 and forza, their cartoon style graphics tell me its only a game much faster than the sounds of gt5

Yeah...thats pretty much of goal of most game racers...and real life racers as well. You see though, contact always happens. In real life and in games.

So aside from the contact "thump" in GT5, the sounds are still there. The really bad engine, tire, and tranny whine. Also, so is the on/off clutch. So even that doesnt tell you that you are playing a game?

Im a graphics whore and i understand there are slow downs in specific situations in gt5 but as you saw from my video it really was not a problem for me in the way i like to play gt5. Im sure slowdowns like in gt4 at the second to last corner of leguna do still occur but i have never had gt5 slow down to the point of affecting my driving and would be hard press to remember ever slowing down lower than 40fps when not in tv replay mode

Visually when GT5 is great, its just that.

However when framerate issues do crop up they are not exagerated.

When digital foundry tested this the found that GT5 can hit mid 45-50 fps with no rain and in the day.


Source - http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/forza-4-vs-gran-turismo-5

Now that's not a busy screen in GT5, yet its dropped to below 50 fps, its doesn't do it all the time of course, however that it does it is not deniable.

However its when it night and raining that the real problems start to occur, when GT5 starts hitting sub-30 fps, and 3D drops that more.

Source - http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-gran-turismo-5-tech-analysis?page=3

Now a more than 50% drop in frame rate is significant, and certainly not exaggeration, its off putting enough that I can't remember the last time I ran at night with rain.

Frame rate is important to a lot of people, if your lucky enough to not be one of them, then that's great, but please do not try and dismiss what can happen to the frame rate.


Scaff

 

[imported_JJ72]

As much as i like shift2 and forza, their cartoon style graphics tell me its only a game much faster than the sounds of gt5

So I guess you can never do A-spec races and only race against people with premium models.

Must say that is pretty similar to my GT5 experience. which consist of 99% hotlapping on the ring.

 

[RedSuinit]

I feel like the point of my post was missed. Nitpicking is beyond the scope of this thread. It just is. It has little to no influence on the debate. I see a lot of nitpicking aimed at GT5 but almost NONE towards Forza. But I guess my desire for a balanced judgement is nitpicking in and of itself. Looks like I'm being hypocritical.

By the way, the whole "half the cars" thing was a sarcastic exaggeration. My apologies, without a /sarcasm, or anything of that sort, it does violate the AUP.

 

[newbielives]

I clearly posted a video of my racing a couple post above, I'm not sure what you are getting at. But along with racing the AI, Online I do love hot lapping the ring aswell.

So I guess you can never do A-spec races and only race against people with premium models.

Must say that is pretty similar to my GT5 experience. which consist of 99% hotlapping on the ring.

 

[Scaff]

Im a graphics whore and i understand there are slow downs in specific situations in gt5 but as you saw from my video it really was not a problem for me in the way i like to play gt5. Im sure slowdowns like in gt4 at the second to last corner of leguna do still occur but i have never had gt5 slow down to the point of affecting my driving and would be hard press to remember ever slowing down lower than 40fps when not in tv replay mode

Do you not race at night or in the rain (or both)?

I've come across issues when racing in those circumstances almost every time, particularly when in a pack of cars in the first corner, which is why I say I have pretty much given up on racing in those conditions in GT5.

It doesn't happen all the time, however to drop from 60fps to sub 30 in a critical corner, with cars all around, at night, in the rain has ruined more than enough races for me.


Scaff

 

[PzR Slim]

I feel like the point of my post was missed. Nitpicking is beyond the scope of this thread. It just is. It has little to no influence on the debate. I see a lot of nitpicking aimed at GT5 but almost NONE towards Forza. But I guess my desire for a balanced judgement is nitpicking in and of itself. Looks like I'm being hypocritical.

By the way, the whole "half the cars" thing was a sarcastic exaggeration. My apologies, without a /sarcasm, or anything of that sort, it does violate the AUP.

You will find some of us have bad things to say about FM4 and shock horror, some of us who prefer FM4 will even have good things to say about GT5. You see we are not looking to promote one franchise over another, we are stating out preference for one of two games.

 

[newbielives]

I have but not often, since I usually race with Sport hard tyres and lower, racing in the rain is a real pain in the ass. I guess if you bought GT5 to purely race in the rain and at night, it might be a let down for you. From the times I remember racing in the rain, I did notice it wasn't consistently running at 60fps but don't recall it going below 30-40fps. I just really don't remember being a time did the framerate drop to the point I couldn't steer my car

Do you not race at night or in the rain (or both)?

I've come across issues when racing in those circumstances almost every time, particularly when in a pack of cars in the first corner, which is why I say I have pretty much given up on racing in those conditions in GT5.

It doesn't happen all the time, however to drop from 60fps to sub 30 in a critical corner, with cars all around, at night, in the rain has ruined more than enough races for me.


Scaff

 

[Scaff]

I have but not often, since I usually race with Sport hard tyres and lower, racing in the rain is a real pain in the ass. I guess if you bought GT5 to purely race in the rain and at night, it might be a let down for you. From the times I remember racing in the rain, I did notice it wasn't consistently running at 60fps but don't recall it going below 30-40fps. I just really don't remember being a time did the framerate drop to the point I couldn't steer my car

I didn't buy GT5 just to race in the rain and/or at night, however when I do I would expect it to be at least a comparable experience to racing in other conditions in terms of performance.

Not an unreasonable expectation I'm sure you would agree.

Scaff

 

[Vaxxtx]

I feel like the point of my post was missed. Nitpicking is beyond the scope of this thread. It just is. It has little to no influence on the debate. I see a lot of nitpicking aimed at GT5 but almost NONE towards Forza. But I guess my desire for a balanced judgement is nitpicking in and of itself. Looks like I'm being hypocritical.

By the way, the whole "half the cars" thing was a sarcastic exaggeration. My apologies, without a /sarcasm, or anything of that sort, it does violate the AUP.

There are flaws with all games. But to be honest, there are not huge ones in FM4, so it comes down to nit picking. The big one was the steering bug, that got fixed within weeks (not a year). You could also say the ring in FM4 is still not correct, but after that I cant think of anything that it big enough to complain about.

You cannot compare a kph/mph gauge error in FM4 to a glaring flaw like different physics online vs. offline in GT5. Or talk about a lousy cockpit in a few FM4 cars, when most of the ones in GT5 were non-existant, and are now black cut outs.

FM4 is just a more solid, well rounded, better designed game.

 

[artboy76]

As much as i like shift2 and forza, their cartoon style graphics tell me its only a game much faster than the sounds of gt5

Im a graphics whore and i understand there are slow downs in specific situations in gt5 but as you saw from my video it really was not a problem for me in the way i like to play gt5. Im sure slowdowns like in gt4 at the second to last corner of leguna do still occur but i have never had gt5 slow down to the point of affecting my driving and would be hard press to remember ever slowing down lower than 40fps when not in tv replay mode

Do you know how you can tell quicker?

Your not sitting in a car.........ermmm, your in a house / basement / hostel / prison / denial......

ermmmmm...... you most likely die if you even attempted to drive a real Lexus LFA around the ring like you do in the clip.....cause...hmmmm, your playing a GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[hennessey86]

As much as i like shift2 and forza, their cartoon style graphics tell me its only a game much faster than the sounds of gt5

Im a graphics whore and i understand there are slow downs in specific situations in gt5 but as you saw from my video it really was not a problem for me in the way i like to play gt5. Im sure slowdowns like in gt4 at the second to last corner of leguna do still occur but i have never had gt5 slow down to the point of affecting my driving and would be hard press to remember ever slowing down lower than 40fps when not in tv replay mode

OH your a graphics whore, then why can you accept low rez textures, cardboard trees, glitchy shadows and a general lack of polish on anything other than the premium cars. In motion gt5 looks great but take a closer look and things like trees and other track side detail have been given no love what so ever. I am sure turn 10 could have given there cars extra graphical fidelity if they had not bothered with anything else in the game but they have and the graphics are consistantly beautiful throughout the game not just in bits. Take GT5s best track for instance, all the trees are just flat and then copy and pasted, then look at forza 4 and tell me GT5 looks better. But I think you will say GT5 is not a tree simulator no it isnt but when you talk of graphics you cant just make one thing look good and forget the rest.

 

[cuco33]

Anyone try out GT5 w/ABS off with a wheel? I can't get my Fanatec setup nor tune right to prevent the instant lockup with ABS off. In FM4, and all Forzas really, I always race with all assists off including ABS off and I can control it and know when the car is locking up. In GT5 once I lock up it's already too late half the times. Maybe I need to adjust the brake pedal on my CSR Elite or tune the brake bias but I swore I read that with Fanatec CSP and CSR-E pedals it's MUCH easier to prevent lockup.

 

[t.o.]

OH your a graphics whore, then why can you accept low rez textures, cardboard trees, glitchy shadows and a general lack of polish on anything other than the premium cars. In motion gt5 looks great but take a closer look and things like trees and other track side detail have been given no love what so ever. I am sure turn 10 could have given there cars extra graphical fidelity if they had not bothered with anything else in the game but they have and the graphics are consistantly beautiful throughout the game not just in bits. Take GT5s best track for instance, all the trees are just flat and then copy and pasted, then look at forza 4 and tell me GT5 looks better. But I think you will say GT5 is not a tree simulator no it isnt but when you talk of graphics you cant just make one thing look good and forget the rest.

One thing we need to make clear. NO GAME has got to the point where you honestly can't tell if you're looking at a game or real life. GT5 included. You will not catch anyone diving for the floor because they see a car in GT5 coming straight at them on the screen and for a split second think it's real. If a person's eyes are that jacked up then no way that person is going to tell me FM4 couldn't do the same. Hell the first Pole Position might make them jump if it's that easy to fool this person. Mind you I'm talking about in-game action.

I will say this though. A game CAN get you into a state of "suspension of belief" if all the elements work together to make it happen. Henessey you see the same thing I see. The overall look of FM4 is consistent. Nothing stands out any more than it should compared to the other thing happening on the screen. To use T10's phrase "The cars are perfectly seated in the environment" and to take it further the environment wraps itself perfectly around the cars and the action that's going on makes use of this well. FM4 does this well. GT5 doesn't.

I live on a noisy street. Hospital and firehouse right about 3 blocks down and the police station is up from the cross street and I'm at the main intersection. I get all the sirens There have been times I've been so intense in a race , with "suspension of belief" kicked in full gear that when I heard a quick chirp outside from a police siren I actually looked in the side mirror and was about to get off the throttle. No kidding. I never had anything close to that happen while playing GT5.

Anyone try out GT5 w/ABS off with a wheel? I can't get my Fanatec setup nor tune right to prevent the instant lockup with ABS off. In FM4, and all Forzas really, I always race with all assists off including ABS off and I can control it and know when the car is locking up. In GT5 once I lock up it's already too late half the times. Maybe I need to adjust the brake pedal on my CSR Elite or tune the brake bias but I swore I read that with Fanatec CSP and CSR-E pedals it's MUCH easier to prevent lockup.

Well with the Clubsport Pedals you don't get the lock up so much. I don't know about the newer set of pedals they have now. But with my clubsports lockup wasn't really a problem for me with ABS off.

 

[artboy76]

I went outside once............................the graphics were ****