Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

[Wolfe]

Frankly, I'm amazed GT5 turned out as good as it is. On a certain level, I agree with IGN's two-part conclusion; 10/10 simulator, 5/10 game. The driving model isn't perfect, and I think FM4 is more realistic and intuitive. But GT5 still makes for a fine drive. Much better than most console racing offerings.

Maybe it's just that my expectations were in the gutter, since I couldn't stand playing GT4 at all. But I wouldn't accuse GT5 of coasting on the series' success. Releasing a half-finished game and only fixing some of it after the fact...sure, that could be considered taking advantage of your fans. But the driving model is inarguably a step forward, not to mention the graphics (obviously) and some of the new features. If only the Standards drove as well as the Premiums...

Personally, I expected less than what PD delivered. I'd like to see them surprise me again with GT6. Given some of the rumors concerning the next Xbox ("no used games"; ridiculous but not implausible), I might be playing that instead of Forza.

 

[Scaff]

Personally, I expected less than what PD delivered. I'd like to see them surprise me again with GT6. Given some of the rumors concerning the next Xbox ("no used games"; ridiculous but not implausible), I might be playing that instead of Forza.

Off-topic. I would take that with a big pinch of salt, the self same rumour was around prior to the PS3 being released, mainly because Sony obtained a patent for the technology that allows it...

http://www.joystiq.com/2005/11/08/playstation-3-wont-play-used-games/

...and we know that didn't end up happening.


Scaff

 

[Chagen46]

Frankly, I'm amazed GT5 turned out as good as it is. On a certain level, I agree with IGN's two-part conclusion; 10/10 simulator, 5/10 game. The driving model isn't perfect, and I think FM4 is more realistic and intuitive. But GT5 still makes for a fine drive. Much better than most console racing offerings.

Maybe it's just that my expectations were in the gutter, since I couldn't stand playing GT4 at all. But I wouldn't accuse GT5 of coasting on the series' success. Releasing a half-finished game and only fixing some of it after the fact...sure, that could be considered taking advantage of your fans. But the driving model is inarguably a step forward, not to mention the graphics (obviously) and some of the new features. If only the Standards drove as well as the Premiums...

Personally, I expected less than what PD delivered. I'd like to see them surprise me again with GT6. Given some of the rumors concerning the next Xbox ("no used games"; ridiculous but not implausible), I might be playing that instead of Forza.

Gt5's driving model is not a step foward, it doesn't even model contact patches.

 

[artboy76]

The fact is I trust Turn 10, they may not be perfect and there's stuff they can improve on, but boy they have some shrewd guys there.
To see the cars they have given us in these DLC's its just beyond awesome.
It shows a team bursting with confidence, bursting with passion bursting with pride for what they do.

What i got with GT5 and PD was they feeling i had a team giving me one part (20%) a willy waving "look at us!!" tech demo. Then 80% last gen GT4 ported over which they failed to mention in the pre release bravado......

Oh and they just so happened to forget that at the end of the day when all said and done this is the computer GAME industry, you have to have some sembeleance of enjoyment out of the game.... it should not be a grind and it should not need "the right track (nurb'ring), the right car (premium) for it to impress you...... it should as a whole package , impress you...which Forza 4 does...

Rivals is just in gaming terms as addictive as Tetris which is the holy grail! its awesome!

Im with Turn 10....and you know i trust they will give me what i want and continue to impress me.

 

[JoeMaPampang]

Gt5's driving model is not a step foward, it doesn't even model contact patches.

Nor Tyre width, nor tyre Flex it feels good enough though combined with those shaders on and in the car it still is a beautifull game, nobody can deny that. But still the new King has risen.

 

[cuco33]

I don't care if T10 copied the rivals idea from EA's arcadey NFS series... it's awesome.

That is all

 

[UKMikey]

They copied the right ideas from other games in my opinion. Rewind is a warmed over version of Codemasters games' Flashbacks but it's equally welcome as a track learning aid and hotlap fixer (in those cases where a mistake in the final section of the previous lap will invalidate the current one you can rewind to the end of the previous lap and try again).

I think FM5 may have the potential to disappoint since our expectations have been raised above those for GT, possibly for the first time. Plus, it's new hardware. Even if off road is included it may not come up to the standard of the tarmac racing. However I think T10 would rather leave out dirt racing than do it half assed. I hope weather and dynamic time of day are near the top of their list of priorities this time around.

 

[Wolfe]

Scaff -- One of the articles that mentioned this new rumor also mentioned what you linked to; how Sony nixed the idea. But things have changed since then. At the very least, the seed has been planted: consider EA's Online Pass system.

Anyway, I'm just saying that even if I'm completely disinterested in GT today, I still would like to see it improve and succeed.

Gt5's driving model is not a step foward, it doesn't even model contact patches.

Have you played GT4 lately? I'm well aware GT5 isn't particularly realistic, but it still has the best driving model of any Gran Turismo game to date. I'd say that's a step forward.

Polyphony might have gotten away with carrying over GT4's physics -- many people thought they were as realistic as a game could be -- but they chose not to. You could say they took a "risk" in implementing something resembling actual oversteer (gasp!!) in a game popular among less-than-hardcore gamers.

I don't think they tried to ride on the series' success. They were just way too ambitious and disorganized.

 

[Scaff]

Scaff -- One of the articles that mentioned this new rumor also mentioned what you linked to; how Sony nixed the idea. But things have changed since then. At the very least, the seed has been planted: consider EA's Online Pass system.

To be honest if I can see anyone doing it next gen its Sony rather than MS. MS have pretty much ignored the whole On-line pass thing with any titles they publish, while Sony are staring to embrace it more and more with titles they publish.


Scaff

 

[MagpieRacer]

online race > create race > add 12 AI> problem solved.

This is one of the best things about Forza 4 that I didn't know until reading it here.

Better still you can choose what cars the AI use. Just had an awesome DTM race round Hockenheim. Still pays out XP and credits too!

 

[Killer46]

This is one of the best things about Forza 4 that I didn't know until reading it here.

Better still you can choose what cars the AI use. Just had an awesome DTM race round Hockenheim. Still pays out XP and credits too!

Too bad the A.I is woefully slow 95% of the time.

 

[prymet1me]

All I will say is this, I lost my FM game save and started over again. My driver level was over 140 and I was 47% done with the event list, lost a host of cars and money.....and I have no issue starting over and enjoying a different set of cars this time around. The only think I miss is my unicorn Camaro SS T10 gave out. Any other game that I lost this much progress on would have been sold.(except an rpg)

@SatansReverence dude I have raced you in some of the rooms.......I dont think the A.I. was programmed for some of the lap times you have put up. I hate you..in a competitive way, I thought I was somewhat decent until those online races.

 

[Killer46]

@SatansReverence dude I have raced you in some of the rooms.......I dont think the A.I. was programmed for some of the lap times you have put up. I hate you..in a competitive way, I thought I was somewhat decent until those online races.

Unfortunately that has been the case since FM1.

The A.I just isn't competitive for faster drivers.

Doing some of the R1 races last night (the last of the race series too) I was doing 8+ seconds a lap faster than the A.I and I wasn't even in a leaderboard car.

 

[stevetam]

Gt5's driving model is not a step foward, it doesn't even model contact patches.

Note TL;DR. Don't make assumptions on physics models just because you can see something on one engine but another may be hiding it.

We know very little about both Forza's and Gran Turismo's Simulation Engines behind the PR and experiential aspects. To say this claim is essentially knowing how that physics engine is coded. Only the people at PD and T10 will know for sure. While T10 publicly say they utilize Pirelli's Tire and they have a live telemetry feature, these are ultimately numbers that are put through the physics engine and put out again for the user to see. We know very little behind what the numbers say or how the models they use correlate to the real world (Clarification: This does not mean that you don't know what the telemetry would definitely do in real life, but we don't know for certain how the telemetry will behave inside the model).

While experiential claims make strong evidence for how simulations behave well or not so well in certain circumstances, it is inappropriate to say PD does not do this or Forza does this just because you see something visual. And that is the beauty of simulation because they don't have to show you everything, but you can manage to get a feel for how the car moves.

I personally have found quirks with both physics models. For example, I find GT is more prone to random lift-off oversteer while Forza's counter-steering mechanism has left me more to desire. I really want to get onto a track one day (I'm a poor student! YAY!) to see how the models relate to real life. On a side note I've played a tiny bit of iRacing and rFactor and if I remember correctly physics are kind of in between the grip and slip feel of GT5 and Forza.

 

[Killer46]

Note TL;DR. Don't make assumptions on physics models just because you can see something on one engine but another may be hiding it.

Testing has proven that GT5 does not take into account tyre size.

It's not conjecture, it's fact.

 

[cuco33]

Testing has proven that GT5 does not take into account tyre size.

It's not conjecture, it's fact.

And also there's no tire pressure adjustment, at all, in GT5 as fact.

Neither are perfect but experiencing both games with pad and with wheel I give the nod to FM4 as having the better physics model. It's not saying GT5 is an arcade game with crap physics but rather FM4 > GT5 in terms of physics.

ISO.7, regarding lift off oversteer, are you playing FM4 with sim mode? pad or wheel? I experience more realistic lift off oversteer in FM4 than in GT5.

 

[I'm Motarded]

I hope weather and dynamic time of day are near the top of their list of priorities this time around.

I think at least one of those are. These were spotted on the Turn 10 office walls before fm3 was released. They're only concept art, but..

Clearly weather effects were on the agenda. I think by now they surely have running test builds with weather effects to experiment with. However Dan Greenawalt did say they didn't ask Pirelli for any wet weather tyre data, that could mean for didn't ask for FM4, not didn't ask for FM5, we all know how shady devs can be with withholding information for future endeavors. But they certainly were not hiding the photos you see above.

http://jalopnik.com/5476893/gallery-inside-forza-motorsport-part-i-the-office/gallery/23

 

[shawtyoner]

Clearly weather effects were on the agenda.

I believe I remember Dan saying that they would have wanted to include it, but they were unable to implement it while keeping a solid 60FPS, so they left it out until they could resolve it. I'm sure FM5 will have it, especially if it might be released on Xbox720.

 

[I'm Motarded]

I believe I remember Dan saying that they would have wanted to include it, but they were unable to implement it while keeping a solid 60FPS, so they left it out until they could resolve it. I'm sure FM5 will have it, especially if it might be released on Xbox720.

Yeah,

Currently, as GT5 and shift 2 prove, the only way to add day/night transitions & weather is to compromise framerate, or as Dan said "Cheat" in other ways.

However, we take frame rate pretty seriously—we believe that having a solid 60 frames per second (FPS) experience with no tearing is very important for a simulation racing game. Delivering night is about more than just getting the general look right. As we found on the original Forza Motorsport, having multiple headlight projections with multiple cast shadows is computationally heavy—even using clever tricks like we did on the less powerful original Xbox platform. This makes delivering a strong night racing experience very difficult at 60 FPS without significant compromise.

If we cut down on the number of cars on track, used original Xbox-generation car models, dropped to 30 FPS, or (and this would be the most effective solution) built specific tracks from the ground-up to have less detail and thus extra performance headroom, then night racing and/or weather conditions may have been possible. Some of those trade-offs, we just were not willing to do. Others would require time that we used to develop other features in the game—specifically, the new graphical look of the game in general. Night and weather are features we will continue to evaluate as the franchise continues. We’re waiting for the right time to deliver these features to our fans.

http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/underthehood2/

After reading that again, it seems we are just playing a waiting game for the next gen consoles (or a serious coding breakthrough on the current gen), as it almost sounds ready to go if you take the last few lines literally.

If it is ready to go I hope they are still developing because many (PC) games are already moving those features forward with things like drying lines, and localized weather etc. Still, I wouldn't complain if we just got the basics to start with, and the extra features added in FM6 or whatever.

 

[stevetam]

Testing has proven that GT5 does not take into account tyre size.

It's not conjecture, it's fact.

To clarify, I'm in full support of TESTING. When multiple run through show patterns it can be conjectured into a fact. I do recognize the issue of tire size. I was trying to address issues such as telemetry, the point was just because forza shows it and GT5 does not does not mean GT5 is not doing something in the simulation engine. But through rigourous and comprehensive testing, various theories can start to emerge as fact. Going back and forth between GT5 and F4, I'm liking the F4 model slightly better (keep in mind both are not perfect either). My real point was not every theory or claim IS fact, it remains a claim because anecdotal evidence through a small sample size is no replacement for the rigourous testing and proof I was referring to.

And also there's no tire pressure adjustment, at all, in GT5 as fact.

Neither are perfect but experiencing both games with pad and with wheel I give the nod to FM4 as having the better physics model. It's not saying GT5 is an arcade game with crap physics but rather FM4 > GT5 in terms of physics.

ISO.7, regarding lift off oversteer, are you playing FM4 with sim mode? pad or wheel? I experience more realistic lift off oversteer in FM4 than in GT5.

With Forza I appreciate that something like Tire pressure can be changes with a noticeable difference in tire behaviour. With respect to GT5, it is disappointing that that feature is not included. My guess is that GT5 may have a standard tire model with a standard PSI measurement and maybe even a set temperature.

To clarify about the lift off oversteer I was saying GT5 handles it randomly, kind of like how Forza 3 induced liftoff oversteer, but not as bad. I think Forza 4 has one of the better models for liftoff oversteer.

 

[Imari]

With Forza I appreciate that something like Tire pressure can be changes with a noticeable difference in tire behaviour. With respect to GT5, it is disappointing that that feature is not included. My guess is that GT5 may have a standard tire model with a standard PSI measurement and maybe even a set temperature.

You're saying that GT5 has tyre pressure and temperature modelled, but they chose to lock it to a single value for each?

There's nothing to indicate that this is true. Occam's Razor dictates that unless you've got further information, they probably didn't model either.

 

[stevetam]

You're saying that GT5 has tyre pressure and temperature modelled, but they chose to lock it to a single value for each?

There's nothing to indicate that this is true. Occam's Razor dictates that unless you've got further information, they probably didn't model either.

I have no sort of proof to show for it, but to say they didn't model it is also another claim. Occam's Razor is built to test hypotheses, and based on what we have seen from PD and co, we know very little about the engine itself. Wouldn't it be another assumption to say they didn't do it? (Back to the top part of the older post, I was giving a guess on what I think might be the case, and this is far short of a concrete conjecture).

We can assume they didn't model it, or we can give them the benefit of the doubt. However, I see it unlikely that their tire model doesnt take account for tire pressure. But this is PD we are talking about, for all we know the tire model they may have used was a solid lump of rubber...

 

[artboy76]

Check out what Turn 10 did with the Le Mans Mazda in latest DLC.... nailed and I mean nailed the sound DOWN!!

that's all I'm saying .... this may break even the hardest of GT5 brain washed disciples, we now have in forza one of this centries most amazing cars with the arguably greatest engine note this side of F1, down to a t.
A direct comparison with GT5 leaves them exposed and clearly a team who at best are pretty lax and clueless about what people want and expect, at worst lazy encompetant "emperor's clothes" company shoving half ar5ed products at consumers hoping the fan base will drown out the normal customers complaints...

 

[Imari]

I have no sort of proof to show for it, but to say they didn't model it is also another claim. Occam's Razor is built to test hypotheses, and based on what we have seen from PD and co, we know very little about the engine itself. Wouldn't it be another assumption to say they didn't do it? (Back to the top part of the older post, I was giving a guess on what I think might be the case, and this is far short of a concrete conjecture).

We can assume they didn't model it, or we can give them the benefit of the doubt. However, I see it unlikely that their tire model doesnt take account for tire pressure. But this is PD we are talking about, for all we know the tire model they may have used was a solid lump of rubber...

No. The claim is that the tyre model (as described) exists. The claim that it doesn't exists is not separate, it is the reverse. Without positive proof to claim one way or another, the default assumption is that it does not exist. The burden of proof lies on the party making the claim.

By way of an example, I could claim that I have an invisible, intangible dragon in my garage. You might rightfully tell me I'm talking rubbish. Could I state that it's your job to prove that I don't have a dragon in my garage? Of course not. A negative claim is rarely provable in an absolute way. Just because I've never seen a horse that farts rainbows, doesn't mean that on some bizarre planet on the other side of the universe there isn't one.

And so, by default we tend to assume the negative claim (that something doesn't exist) is true until proven otherwise. In this particular case, we have no direct way of investigating so we're unlikely to get a direct answer.

However, were there tyre pressures modelled in a meaningful way, you'd expect the model to also need things like tread width. Tyre pressures affect the contact patch, but tread width affects the contact patch in a much more direct and mathematically simple manner. The lack of tread width modelling is an indication that pressures likely do not exist either.

We can assume they didn't model it, or we can give them the benefit of the doubt. However, I see it unlikely that their tire model doesnt take account for tire pressure. But this is PD we are talking about, for all we know the tire model they may have used was a solid lump of rubber...

This is not a valid argument. This is known as an appeal to authority. You believe that PD know what they're doing, therefore you assume that they modelled something even in the absence of solid proof.

For all we know, there is no tyre model at all. There may just be a fudge factor that happens to give rather realistic results with no reverence or relevance to real phenomena at all. You might call that a tyre model I suppose, but I'd call it a kludge.

 

[stevetam]

This is not a valid argument. This is known as an appeal to authority. You believe that PD know what they're doing, therefore you assume that they modelled something even in the absence of solid proof.

For all we know, there is no tyre model at all. There may just be a fudge factor that happens to give rather realistic results with no reverence or relevance to real phenomena at all. You might call that a tyre model I suppose, but I'd call it a kludge.

This was never meant to be a valid argument. I would love to give PD the benefit of the doubt. It is a personal belief, and not proof of a tire model. There may or may not be a tire model, and they could of "kludged" it as you call it.


I think it would be best to get back on topic instead of debating on the validity or presence of PDs tire model. We've gotten off track Gt5 vs forza. Too much focus on gt5. This should be on gtplanet!!!

 

[imported_xxDingerxx]

I have never really understood this fixation regarding the argument about tire pressure in games like GT or Forza.

Fact is, the main bulk of the settings are going to be the suspension settings. The shock settings, wheel alignment or anti-roll bars etc are more important than the tire pressure.

In a perfect world where everything is the same, the only real factor that determines a difference in tire pressure is friction caused by how hard you drive. Even then its a minor change of the PSI.

The main reason for tire pressure becoming a major factor is things like air temperature and the track surface temperature. These things alone can cause major difference in PSI throughout a single day.

So until games like GT or Forza simulates a fully variable weather system that impacts track conditions and, if they want to go to an extreme simulation model they have to work out differences in heat build/displacement between light/dark tarmac's then its pretty much just a gimmick having a tire pressure setting

 

[Killer46]

Fact is, the main bulk of the settings are going to be the suspension settings. The shock settings, wheel alignment or anti-roll bars etc are more important than the tire pressure.

Sorry but no.

One of, if not the, biggest factor concerning lap times is tyre pressures.

Why do you think race cars like formula 1 pre heat their tyres before a race/tyre change? Because when they aren't up to operating temperature the tyre pressure is wrong which makes the car significantly slower.

Having low tyre pressure leads to the tyres rolling left/right on the rim which means you don't get the full contact patch available.

Likewise, having it too high means you can get both bulging tyres which reduces contact patch and you remove the flex which makes for a less consistent contact patch.

 

[imported_xxDingerxx]

Sorry but no.

One of, if not the, biggest factor concerning lap times is tyre pressures.

Why do you think race cars like formula 1 pre heat their tyres before a race/tyre change? Because when they aren't up to operating temperature the tyre pressure is wrong which makes the car significantly slower.

Thats to do with the tires optimal temperature (which they already know). The differences between sessions is caused by differences in track temperature and thats why start to fiddle with pressure settings, which highlights my point of simulating variable track conditions. A static model, which Forza and GT simulate, there would be no change in the pressure as optimal temperature would be constant.

In F1 during practice sessions, there is a reason the main focas is on suspension. They switch to tire pressures as a main focas after the teams are prohibited from changing anything else on the car when the cars enter Parc fermé and then the track conditions change.

 

[artboy76]

Thats to do with the tires optimal temperature (which they already know). The differences between sessions is caused by differences in track temperature and thats why start to fiddle with pressure settings, which highlights my point of simulating variable track conditions. A static model, which Forza and GT simulate, there would be no change in the pressure as optimal temperature would be constant.

In F1 during practice sessions, there is a reason the main focas is on suspension. They switch to tire pressures as a main focas after the teams are prohibited from changing anything else on the car when the cars enter Parc fermé and then the track conditions change.

On your basis you may as well simulate no values what so ever. The simple fact is that if theres a setting for say stiffness of springs then there should be one for tyre pressures. If not then why bother having any values as its all just smoke and mirrors anyway and theres no real track surface or weather or heat etc etc etc.....

PD were just as most of GT5 proves....lax, and living off their inflated egos that they are the 'real driving simulator'....lol..yeah ok....

 

[Wolfe]

You're saying that GT5 has tyre pressure and temperature modelled, but they chose to lock it to a single value for each?

There's nothing to indicate that this is true. Occam's Razor dictates that unless you've got further information, they probably didn't model either.

I'm not sure why you doubt this. If variable tire pressure is not modelled, then by default the tires will behave as if they are set to a permanent pressure value.

Even the most horribly inept game developers can't model a tire with "nonexistent" pressure. I don't even know what that would entail. It may not have a specified value, but the pressure "exists." And if it can't be changed and doesn't change during a race due to temperature, etc., then it's permanent and static.