Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

[cuco33]

I experienced lift off oversteer in the last rivals event quite a lot. I then changed my throttle control and steering inputs to resolve me crashing because of it. It's certainly there and this was a low powered car. I've experienced it in a high powered RWD racing car as well

 

[artboy76]

I experienced lift off oversteer in the last rivals event quite a lot. I then changed my throttle control and steering inputs to resolve me crashing because of it. It's certainly there and this was a low powered car. I've experienced it in a high powered RWD racing car as well

Indeed, the Renault twingo lift off oversteers merrily all day long , mega fun.

 

[Imari]

Yup, agreed.

But as long as it works and, well, as long as it sells, a major overhaul is unlikely.

Unfortunately, I agree. Risk takers they are not. But then, most major companies aren't so that's hardly a point against them.

But then again, who knows ? We may be pleasantly surprised in the future. It's obvious GT6 will only be a rehash of GT5 if it's released on the PS3 in the coming years, as expected. But a GT7 ? Who knows ...

The past seems to suggest it's unlikely. GT3 and GT5 haven't exactly made major advancements. I'd argue that GT2 and 4 have been the most progressive, if only because they've done the best at advancing GTs forte, extreme amounts of content.

 

[VXR]

I don't struggle to get lift-off oversteer, either.

 

[UKMikey]

A little off topic for this thread but you guys have already got me playing Project Gotham 4 in anticipation of the next instalment. Last gen graphics and physics but immersive as all hell and dat sound...

Now I want to try GT3. It's the only instalment of Gran Turismo I missed out on as I mistakenly believed that GT4 would be the same game with a broadly enhanced career structure.

 

[JoeMaPampang]

Forza just feels "flat" and a bit too hovercraft-like. It's a very good game, but I never feel much of a connection with the car.

Try tuning your suspension, and tell me if it feels hovercraft-like.

 

[Wolfe]

Wolfe i'm at a loss as to why you cant get lift off oversteer in Forza 4, i can, can anyone else?

I reckon with all due respect its something up with you not the game.

If it's something with me, I wonder why the game seems so easy and friendly-to-control. This is a lack-of-difficulty problem, so what could I be doing?

Obviously lift-off oversteer happens in FM4. But it also happens in Ridge Racer. Existence does not prove accuracy. You get the hint of oversteer long enough to suspend disbelief during a race, but it never actually finishes what it starts. Every 2WD car I've tried quickly settles into an understeery circle, whether it's the Shelby Cobra at 60mph in 1st gear, the RUFs/DeLorean, or Lotuses/MR2s.

The best way I've found to get lift-off oversteer is to drive an open-diff AWD car. By accident, really, because I wanted to practice with something similar to my Subaru. Now the 22B is one of my top favorites because it'll actually ROTATE when I tell it to.

Has anyone ever spun out in this game from lift-off oversteer alone? Without overcorrecting?

Try tuning your suspension, and tell me if it feels hovercraft-like.

Do you mean "a bit hovercraft-like"? And yes. Everything that happens in this game is smooth, silky, and solid. It has track bumps and camera jiggling to try to hide it, but it's not a particularly lively physics engine. Suspension settings don't really have anything to do with it.

 

[Chagen46]

If it's something with me, I wonder why the game seems so easy and friendly-to-control. This is a lack-of-difficulty problem, so what could I be doing?

Obviously lift-off oversteer happens in FM4. But it also happens in Ridge Racer. Existence does not prove accuracy. You get the hint of oversteer long enough to suspend disbelief during a race, but it never actually finishes what it starts. Every 2WD car I've tried quickly settles into an understeery circle, whether it's the Shelby Cobra at 60mph in 1st gear, the RUFs/DeLorean, or Lotuses/MR2s.

The best way I've found to get lift-off oversteer is to drive an open-diff AWD car. By accident, really, because I wanted to practice with something similar to my Subaru. Now the 22B is one of my top favorites because it'll actually ROTATE when I tell it to.

Has anyone ever spun out in this game from lift-off oversteer alone? Without overcorrecting?


Do you mean "a bit hovercraft-like"? And yes. Everything that happens in this game is smooth, silky, and solid. It has track bumps and camera jiggling to try to hide it, but it's not a particularly lively physics engine. Suspension settings don't really have anything to do with it.

You seriously haven't played Forza that much man.

First of all, basically every car supra-300 HP is a twirlin' machine. I struggle to keep some of my cars moving forward because they rotate like crazy if your dare apply .0000000001% more gas than you need to.

Second, Forza 4's is not hovercraft like. These are race roads we're dealing with. They're going to be flat and very clean to race on. And it's NOT silky smooth, only if you're badass enough to keep your can in control.

 

[imported_JJ72]

Truth lies somewhere between the two above post imo.

Forza if you come back straight from a "real sim", feels dampened and more controlled, that is a very real feeling, however the basics and overall balance is correct, in fact sometimes more correct that some of the sims out there, the balance and linearity of the tires is top notch, not just top notch in console sims but top notch among everything.

What is lacking is finer fidelity in the physics engine and higher frequency calculations, added with more detailed track model, bump modelling etc.

Does it take skill to drive fast and is it risky to throw a car into the limit of grip? of course it does, getting within 1 second of any spec hotlaps event is still a huge task, but what it doesn't do is suddenly kill you when you bottom out on a curb, run a wheel over a white line, or mess up your downshift etc, the moments that make you dumb founded. In Forza before I spin I pretty much know what I am doing wrong, even in the most difficult of cars.

 

[I'm Motarded]

but what it doesn't do is suddenly kill you when you bottom out on a curb,

It does if you run too stiff a suspension setting in lowered cars, many roll-overs abound. And running over some of the taller kerbs unsettles many a rwd car killing lap times.

or mess up your downshift etc, the moments that make you dumb founded.

Many of my engines/drivetrain with sim damage disagree here too.

I'm just saying, I know it's not perfect, It doesn't have the extremes some of the more hardcore sims seem to have. Sometimes I'm thankful for this, some of those games seem artificially difficult.. unless you are running a 900 degree steering wheel, now fm4 feels very similar to those sims, it becomes brutally unforgiving.

 

[imported_JJ72]

Drivetrain damage has nothing to do with what I am saying, I am talking about instant spinouts. And having raced all these league seasons, never did I have to run higher than lowest ride height possible for bump reasons.

What considers to be too difficult and unforgiving is relative to your skill level, and of course input method of choice. Being a wheel user for almost a decade I am just giving my assessment compare to what is really difficult.

 

[artboy76]

If it's something with me, I wonder why the game seems so easy and friendly-to-control. This is a lack-of-difficulty problem, so what could I be doing?

Obviously lift-off oversteer happens in FM4. But it also happens in Ridge Racer. Existence does not prove accuracy. You get the hint of oversteer long enough to suspend disbelief during a race, but it never actually finishes what it starts. Every 2WD car I've tried quickly settles into an understeery circle, whether it's the Shelby Cobra at 60mph in 1st gear, the RUFs/DeLorean, or Lotuses/MR2s.

The best way I've found to get lift-off oversteer is to drive an open-diff AWD car. By accident, really, because I wanted to practice with something similar to my Subaru. Now the 22B is one of my top favorites because it'll actually ROTATE when I tell it to.

Has anyone ever spun out in this game from lift-off oversteer alone? Without overcorrecting?


Do you mean "a bit hovercraft-like"? And yes. Everything that happens in this game is smooth, silky, and solid. It has track bumps and camera jiggling to try to hide it, but it's not a particularly lively physics engine. Suspension settings don't really have anything to do with it.

With respect,I think your totally wrong, I think you live too much within a bubble and that Euthaniasia game you keep referencing is at the core the reason for this.
I will just say once more, do we really honestly think car companies spend millions on making cars uncontroalable?

Expensive race cars with aero and slicks will handle well on the whole, there are cars in this game that i have ruined with bad tuning choices, thats how i know..... but if a game dosent acurately portray the fact that in real life a Le Mans racers can hold a racing line round a corner at stupid speeds without spinnign off...then its not doing its job properly...

I honestly think your at fault not the game.

and i reference you back to this :
impossible to drive = sim

its a falacy.

 

[imported_Chad Esposito]

GT5=platinum trophy
Forza 4=only missing 2 achievements and very close from them now (level 50 affinity) (gold on all of the event list)

Completely unbiased, played enough to speak. Forza 4 is a much better sim/game as a whole than GT5, and by far.

 

[Killer46]

GT5=platinum trophy
Forza 4=only missing 2 achievements and very close from them now (level 50 affinity) (gold on all of the event list)

Completely unbiased, played enough to speak. Forza 4 is a much better sim/game as a whole than GT5, and by far.

As others have said, there is no such thing as unbiased.

The fact you say Forza > GT is bias.

The difference is, you have reasons worth writing home about for said bias.

 

[PzR Crazy]

The best way I've found to get lift-off oversteer is to drive an open-diff AWD car. By accident, really, because I wanted to practice with something similar to my Subaru. Now the 22B is one of my top favorites because it'll actually ROTATE when I tell it to.

Has anyone ever spun out in this game from lift-off oversteer alone? Without overcorrecting?

I'm by no means an automotive engineering expert, but my understanding of classical lift-off oversteer is primarily it's induced when the weight transfer towards the rear typres when lifting off the throttle is combined with a certain suspension setup such that the car rotates due to the rear tyres losing lateral grip... It's quite notable in a few small modern FWD cars (small wheelbase, stiffly sprung, etc)

I'm sure that if a diff was to apply some braking torque to the wheel when the throttle is lifted, that might also create lift off oversteer..

No matter, I have driven lots of cars that on the limit of traction exhibit lift off oversteer to different degrees, it's one of the aspects of car control that is quite rewarding, keeping the weight transfer under control to prevent excessive lift off oversteer..

 

[shawtyoner]

I can say I definitely experienced lift-off in Forza for sure, the DC2 Type-R does it bang on every time I want it too. I do feel that GT5's lift-off oversteer for MR cars is more extreme, I don't know if I can say "more real" since I have never driven an MR car. I do recall driving both the Lotus Esprit Turbo cars in both games, they are different models, but the one in GT5 did slide out more aggressively than the one in FM4. Which one is more accurate I have no idea.

 

[RedSuinit]

bias: a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice.

I do not have an inclination to GT5 or FM4. Still would love to know what statements I have made that leads anyone to believe that I have done so. This is more than just a "there is no such thing as unbiased" when, in fact there is, and in this particular subject, I feel that I lack a bias towards either game. Question of honor more than anything here. Being called a liar doesn't sit well with anyone, and if my claim to being unbiased is false, then I am either missing something that I have done or said, or I am a liar. I'm trying to be completely honest, so I must be missing something, I would appreciate it if those that do see it would point it out to me.

 

[Scaff]

bias: a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice.

I do not have an inclination to GT5 or FM4. Still would love to know what statements I have made that leads anyone to believe that I have done so. This is more than just a "there is no such thing as unbiased" when, in fact there is, and in this particular subject, I feel that I lack a bias towards either game. Question of honor more than anything here. Being called a liar doesn't sit well with anyone, and if my claim to being unbiased is false, then I am either missing something that I have done or said, or I am a liar. I'm trying to be completely honest, so I must be missing something, I would appreciate it if those that do see it would point it out to me.

Go back and reveiw your posts in this thread....

http://www.forzaplanet.net/forum/search.php?searchid=10527


....you have a tendency to fall on the side of GT. Its not a 'GT does nothing wrong at all' stance, but its a definite tendency to lean towards GT.

Oh and I certainly am not calling you a liar at all, rather I fully acknowledge how difficult it can be to recognise ones own bias'. Even when you do recognise them it can be difficult to put them to one side and ever be totally objective, its far better to simply acknowledge them and account for it in your opinions.

I come across bias (recognised or not) pretty much daily, having worked in Learning & development for near 15 years, you get to see so many people make the claim of no bias (and honestly believe it) and then repeatedly make biased comments and judgements. Teaching managers (in particular senior ones) to recognise this and adapt to it as part of who they are is both tricky and very rewarding.


Scaff

 

[Clark]

Latley I've being finding myself want to try GT again, as I think one weak aspect of FM is not very communicative FFB, an area I think GT was slightly better. Coming from a session on iracing it's hard to tell when you're going over the limits in FM4 and the FFB goes slightly dead, usually when turning the wheel more than a few degrees when pushing the limits of the front tyres' grip

 

[Wolfe]

Forza if you come back straight from a "real sim", feels dampened and more controlled, that is a very real feeling, however the basics and overall balance is correct, in fact sometimes more correct that some of the sims out there, the balance and linearity of the tires is top notch, not just top notch in console sims but top notch among everything.

What is lacking is finer fidelity in the physics engine and higher frequency calculations, added with more detailed track model, bump modelling etc.

Thank you, this is exactly what I mean. 👍 The tire model is great but the game is a tad simplistic. It's a console sim, after all.

Does it take skill to drive fast and is it risky to throw a car into the limit of grip? of course it does, getting within 1 second of any spec hotlaps event is still a huge task, but what it doesn't do is suddenly kill you when you bottom out on a curb, run a wheel over a white line, or mess up your downshift etc, the moments that make you dumb founded. In Forza before I spin I pretty much know what I am doing wrong, even in the most difficult of cars.

Easy to control is different from easy to drive fast. It takes skill to net top laptimes in this game, but it doesn't take much skill to keep your car under control. That's what I meant by "easy."

Forza practically holds your hand, even with all assists off. It just won't help you top the leaderboards.

With respect,I think your totally wrong, I think you live too much within a bubble and that Euthaniasia game you keep referencing is at the core the reason for this.

In some ways Enthusia was even easier than Forza. It has no rollovers, and oversteer was somewhat easier to catch without spinning. But in my opinion its weight transfer and low speed physics are still more convincing, and despite the smooth tracks and the lack of a cockpit view, I get more of a feel for the car than I do in FM4.

In Enthusia, the Morris Mini Cooper feels completely different from the '70s Honda Civic RS, which in turn feels totally different from the Mk.5 VW GTI, even though all are just FWD hatchbacks. In EPR I feel rewarded for trying new cars I've never driven; I tried the same activity in Free Run in FM4 last night, and it was numb and uninspiring. There just isn't enough nuance in the suspension modelling or weight transfer.

By the way, the benchmark driving sim for me is Live for Speed, which I've been playing for almost a decade now. I don't think it's particularly difficult; I can play it with a gamepad, even though the game doesn't filter joystick input at all (lock-to-lock in literally an instant). With my Logitech G25, it's just eminently natural. But like what JJ72 was talking about, it can bite you if you're ham-handed or not paying attention. The suspension modelling and kinetics are the most detailed I've ever seen.

"Impossible to drive = sim" is a fallacy, I agree. But I'd fear for your safety if you ever tried driving a real Shelby Cobra like you can in Forza. In the game, it's as threatening as a fluffy puppy.

I'm sure that if a diff was to apply some braking torque to the wheel when the throttle is lifted, that might also create lift off oversteer..

Indeed it does. It's quite prominent when attempting to drive a RWD car in snow, for example, as I know from driving my BMW in Wisconsin winters. The drivewheels can actually "underspin" relative to the speed of the car.

 

[imported_Chad Esposito]

As others have said, there is no such thing as unbiased.

The fact you say Forza > GT is bias.

The difference is, you have reasons worth writing home about for said bias.

Of course I'm unbiased. That is why I own and play both to death. I can tell you hundreds of things in favor of both games, love them both, but in the end, my opinion is that Forza 4 is a much better offering as a whole package.

Where's the bias?

As far as I know, bias is a prejudice in favor or against something, not an opinion based on actual experience.

As a matter of fact...

bias |ˈbīəs|
noun
1 prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair

prejudice |ˈprejədəs|
noun
1 preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience

 

[imported_s_maR]

I do not understand to chozy First there are so many conversations! Because Forza at times worse than the GT! In physics, GT better than the beloved product on the planet!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoShIY-beUE
Look for handling cars on the track and Farza, if they float!
Graphically Forza worse than GT! Look at it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E
not work in AI, but rather as Forza looks when on the road and more cars! Everything looks so scary. Building a car even PS2 was the better! In Forza only photomod not bad looking! And GT is true! At the expense of sound motor cars, then you need a good audio system!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPH5E0WlKeg
And GT is simply amazing light effects! Nowhere else this is not!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvukz-Hb5a4&feature=related
Forza 4 is good game, but not better than GT!

 

[ImaRobot]

I do not understand to chozy First there are so many conversations! Because Forza at times worse than the GT! In physics, GT better than the beloved product on the planet!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoShIY-beUE
Look for handling cars on the track and Farza, if they float!
Graphically Forza worse than GT! Look at it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E
not work in AI, but rather as Forza looks when on the road and more cars! Everything looks so scary. Building a car even PS2 was the better! In Forza only photomod not bad looking! And GT is true! At the expense of sound motor cars, then you need a good audio system!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPH5E0WlKeg
And GT is simply amazing light effects! Nowhere else this is not!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvukz-Hb5a4&feature=related
Forza 4 is good game, but not better than GT!

What the hell? I think my brain just exploded.

The videos you posted doesnt seem to have anything to do with what you are talking about haha. Besides the last one of course, that route X does look rather nice at night.

 

[PzR Slim]

Latley I've being finding myself want to try GT again, as I think one weak aspect of FM is not very communicative FFB, an area I think GT was slightly better. Coming from a session on iracing it's hard to tell when you're going over the limits in FM4 and the FFB goes slightly dead, usually when turning the wheel more than a few degrees when pushing the limits of the front tyres' grip

My experience is the polar opposite of this. FM4 communicates what the front wheels are doing very well whereas GT5 just feels numb. I do a lot of fwd touring car comps and it's do easy to find the grip limit of the front tyres both in terms of steering angle and throttle input. And that is all down to the ffb. I just don't get anywhere near as much feel from GT5.

Of course I'm unbiased. That is why I own and play both to death. I can tell you hundreds of things in favor of both games, love them both, but in the end, my opinion is that Forza 4 is a much better offering as a whole package.

Where's the bias?

As far as I know, bias is a prejudice in favor or against something, not an opinion based on actual experience.

As a matter of fact...

bias |ˈbīəs|
noun
1 prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair

prejudice |ˈprejədəs|
noun
1 preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience

I agree with this. Bias has a negative connotation. I prefer the word preference. That's what I have, a preference for FM4 over GT5. I feel saying someone has a bias is a nice way of calling someone a fanboy.

 

[Terronium-12]

I do not understand to chozy First there are so many conversations! Because Forza at times worse than the GT! In physics, GT better than the beloved product on the planet!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoShIY-beUE

Not entirely sure what you're saying here, but GT also has two different physics models - one for offline and another for online.

Look for handling cars on the track and Farza, if they float!
Graphically Forza worse than GT! Look at it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E

A preconceived notion that proves nothing. I can just as easily (if not even more so) make the AI in GT look stupid. In fact, they do that all on their own in B-Spec.

not work in AI, but rather as Forza looks when on the road and more cars! Everything looks so scary. Building a car even PS2 was the better! In Forza only photomod not bad looking! And GT is true! At the expense of sound motor cars, then you need a good audio system!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPH5E0WlKeg

It doesn't matter how many new people say this, nor does it matter how many times they say it because it's a blatant fallacy. The "truth" regarding GT's audio is sub-par. End of story. Having a "good" audio system does not suddenly make everything better. I have a 2.1, 5.1, and onboard speaker setup (the onboard is my monitor, 2.1 is the speakers I use for my PC, and the 5.1 for my games), and believe me, it sounds just as god awful as it does on the onboard or 2.1 as it does on the 5.1. The only difference is the separation of audio samples across discrete channels. Nothing more.

And GT is simply amazing light effects! Nowhere else this is not!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvukz-Hb5a4&feature=related
Forza 4 is good game, but not better than GT!

I don't think anyone has ever argued against the fact that GT5, when at it's best, looks better than FM4. The problem with that is it's best is inconsistent. Thus, FM4 has better quality across the board.

Now, a question unto you: have you played FM4?

 

[imported_Da-bomber]

I do not understand to chozy First there are so many conversations! Because Forza at times worse than the GT! In physics, GT better than the beloved product on the planet!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoShIY-beUE
Look for handling cars on the track and Farza, if they float!
Graphically Forza worse than GT! Look at it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E
not work in AI, but rather as Forza looks when on the road and more cars! Everything looks so scary. Building a car even PS2 was the better! In Forza only photomod not bad looking! And GT is true! At the expense of sound motor cars, then you need a good audio system!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPH5E0WlKeg
And GT is simply amazing light effects! Nowhere else this is not!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvukz-Hb5a4&feature=related
Forza 4 is good game, but not better than GT!

How can anyone make sense of this?

 

[imported_Chad Esposito]

How can anyone make sense of this?

Dude, even if you can understand his "English", the guy is talking non-sense out of evident ignorance about Forza 4. I doubt he has even played it.

 

[cuco33]

Gt5 standards aren't even at the quality of forza 2.

It's unfortunately the norm in the game, these standards.. the premiums do look absolutely fantastic though and everyone pretty much agrees

 

[imported_JJ72]

Easy to control is different from easy to drive fast. It takes skill to net top laptimes in this game, but it doesn't take much skill to keep your car under control. That's what I meant by "easy."

ease of control does relate to how easy it is to drive fast, every game is easy if you don't drive at the limit. driving at 80% in any game and real life is easy.

 

[stevetam]

Dunno.

I think they should trash it all together and rebuilt pretty much everything from scratch.

Even the graphics engine for all its photorealism is pretty much stuck in the past. Why do you think day/night transition tracks are listed as separate tracks ? Because for the game, they *are* separate tracks, with specifically built assets. Makes no sense, really.

No, GT5 feels like an over-boosted GT1, and while it can still deliver on some aspects, PD really need to update most of their engines (graphics, physics, sound, loading/streaming, and so forth).

And just to be clear, if Forza 5 is just an over-boosted Forza 1 (which is pretty much what Forza 4 is now), it will begin to show as well. It's just that the basis of Forza 1 is more recent (obviously), so it doesn't show as much (and Turn10, while keeping most of the basics, did do some pretty impressive improvements over the course of the three iterations of their game).

I think the term overboost has been abused in this case. In the iteration from XBOX -> 360 and PS ->PS2->PS3 processes and engines have changed.

While a design can still have fundamental assumptions, I guarantee that in the graphic video part of GT5 bears very little relation to its predecessor. PD has updated graphics, physics, sound (ok not so much), loading and streaming and everything that you've said. The legacy code shouldn't be around and processing techniques actually change and don't stay constant (Changes should be made in GT5, but to say that their menu system or loading system is a simply an advanced derivative of GT1 does not do justice to what Gt5 actually is). Even in the XBOX -> 360 there were fundamental changes in how items and structures were managed. To say that Forza 4 is just a boosted Forza 1 and GT5 is a overboosted GT1 is an insult to the people who made the games.

I think you are confusing "overboosting" with philosophy. Forza came in with a philosophy with being accessible to a large target audience. Whether that was painting, tuning, storefronters or racing, they have done that from the start. They look for ways to improve the basic interaction between the user and their game; however this has very little bearing to call Forza 4 merely boosted version of Forza 1. Its like calling a new GT500 Mustang a super boosted Original Mustang. While the spirit of the original pony car stays, the processes and function are very different.

For GT6 or whatever they want to call it, I'm not looking for them to "boost" the game. I'm looking for them to do continue with their strengths, along with broadening the game a bit, a remembering the "fun" that was left in GT1.