Forza 5/6 vs GT6 (See First Post Before Posting)

[RacerPaul]

I once played Forza 4 and found it pretty boring. You get pretuned reward cars for leveling up which is too rewarding especially in beginning. AI is boring. Career mode mostly has races and no night or rain. It's repetitive. Gt on the other hand makes you work hard. I doubt that it's any different with fm5. I just find GT more fun and premium than Forza

To each his own. I jumped the GT ship to Forza two or so years ago and I'm very glad I did. For me, the car list is much better. Doesn't matter if its smaller

As SimTourist has mentioned elsewhere, the track list is a toss up. The sound in FM is without doubt better. The upgrades for the cars are good. Engine and drivetrain swaps are a load of fun

Then there's the paint shop and livery editor. GT is way behind in that respect. And the VGT cars are lame. So is the moon mission stuff, plain laughable

As I said though, to each his own. The above is my pov and nothing more. Enjoy yourself with GT Neddo, that is after all the point, regardless of where you get your thrills

 

[Imari]

And the VGT cars are lame.

I think the VGT idea was a decent one. Had we actually got what it was advertised as it would have been pretty awesome. A grand touring prototype from a major manufacturer every two weeks would have been great.

Instead it was more like every six weeks, many were only partially modelled, a lot were more like barely streetable race cars than grand tourers, and more than a few were straight out wacky and only physically realistic with huge amounts of hand waving, fairy dust and hard drugs.

And so the VGT program turned into a bit of a joke. Which is a shame, because I think it could have been incredible for both Polyphony and the car manufacturers had it been done right. We saw the enormous buzz over the Merc VGT, and then it just fell away because Polyphony dropped the ball.

 

[RacerPaul]

... Polyphony dropped the ball

Again, and again and again. In so many aspects

 

[Imari]

Again, and again and again. In so many aspects

Yeah, but there are whole threads for that.

 

[RacerPaul]

Yeah, but there are whole threads for that

Indeed. Which is why I replied only briefly

 

[Tenacious D]

Forza 6 is launching with more premium cars than GT6 has today.

Yeah, three years after GT6 launched. And with how many people on the Forza team?

The thing about Forza 6 I'm most concerned about is... well, two things actually.

• Will the car models be up to snuff and behave themselves when custom liveries are applied?
• Will the bots at least have the manners of a reasonably good online racer, or the bots from RaceRoom?

Which even with a bit of bash happy behavior are pretty good. In replays, they often behave indistinguishably from humans.

F6 is finally looking like a good next gen Forza, in contrast to the diminutive game and money grubbing which was F5. Online is sounding like it's back to alright, and the "league" features sound tantalizing. And after spending time in RaceRoom, I miss not being able to slap custom liveries on cars. I have a feeling I'm going to fall in next week, having found a good Thrustmaster wheel, so that will ease the sting of the crazy cost to just play one game on The ONE!

I'll have to say though that RaceRoom is setting a pretty high bar, so T10 needs to deliver an outstanding experience - yes, PD too. Danny G is promising all that with more mannerly bots this time, M Rossi aside, but as with all things F, we'll see.

 

[ImaRobot]

Yeah, three years after GT6 launched. And with how many people on the Forza team?

The thing about Forza 6 I'm most concerned about is... well, two things actually.

• Will the car models be up to snuff and behave themselves when custom liveries are applied?
• Will the bots at least have the manners of a reasonably good online racer, or the bots from RaceRoom?

Well if thats the case, FM4 started with more premium cars by atleast what, I think double?

What do you mean about the liveries?

In my experience, the bots have always behaved, albeit really really slow for my skill level. I don't have any experience with RaceRoom, however.

F6 is finally looking like a good next gen Forza, in contrast to the diminutive game and money grubbing which was F5. Online is sounding like it's back to alright, and the "league" features sound tantalizing. And after spending time in RaceRoom, I miss not being able to slap custom liveries on cars. I have a feeling I'm going to fall in next week, having found a good Thrustmaster wheel, so that will ease the sting of the crazy cost to just play one game on The ONE!

What exactly was money grubbing about Fm5? Everything seemed really reasonable, and we even got a load of free content consistently.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Yeah, three years after GT6 launched. And with how many people on the Forza team?

GT6 launched less than two years ago. Actually, nearly exactly 20 months ago, with very few cars modelled to the level of Forzavista (opening trunk/bonnets/etc).

The thing about Forza 6 I'm most concerned about is... well, two things actually.

• Will the car models be up to snuff and behave themselves when custom liveries are applied?
• Will the bots at least have the manners of a reasonably good online racer, or the bots from RaceRoom?

• There will probably be a handful of the 450 cars that have weird quirks when applying liveries, since it happens in FM5. Admittedly, GT6 does not have this problem. Why is that, again?
• I've yet to have a problem with the bots being overly aggressive, and I've clocked 2500 miles in FM5 in a matter of 2.5 months. They're a bit dense when it comes to hairpins, and bunch up too tightly in those, but otherwise they've been remarkably human-like in their race craft. It might just be that you're too familiar with the procession line that is GT's AI.

F6 is finally looking like a good next gen Forza, in contrast to the diminutive game and money grubbing which was F5. Online is sounding like it's back to alright, and the "league" features sound tantalizing. And after spending time in RaceRoom, I miss not being able to slap custom liveries on cars. I have a feeling I'm going to fall in next week, having found a good Thrustmaster wheel, so that will ease the sting of the crazy cost to just play one game on The ONE!

...as covered in the blog article when you said something similar, the cost of one game, plus system, plus wheel, plus required online membership is the exact same for GT7 vs FM6, or even slightly more considering the PS4's price vs the XBOne. We could then talk about all the other games in each system's library, but as that has nothing to do with the topic, there's no point.

I'll have to say though that RaceRoom is setting a pretty high bar, so T10 needs to deliver an outstanding experience - yes, PD too. Danny G is promising all that with more mannerly bots this time, M Rossi aside, but as with all things F, we'll see.

Not sure if you caught his comment in an interview about people wanting a less-aggressive Drivatar option, even though it's then not really representative of the players as its meant to be. So while they're offering this "calmer" option, he prefers the normal setting. I'm sure it's a Catch 22, since people getting bashed online by other, less skilled players could reflect on their own Drivatar's likeliness to rub fender, but we'll see. With the new Online League system, that sort of thing should hopefully be taken into consideration.

 

[Tenacious D]

GT6 launched less than two years ago. Actually, nearly exactly 20 months ago, with very few cars modelled to the level of Forzavista (opening trunk/bonnets/etc).

Yeah... not sure what I was thinking. Just a bit later I posted 19 months on another forum. I think I've been working for the Obama administration too long...

I've yet to have a problem with the bots being overly aggressive, and I've clocked 2500 miles in FM5 in a matter of 2.5 months. They're a bit dense when it comes to hairpins, and bunch up too tightly in those, but otherwise they've been remarkably human-like in their race craft. It might just be that you're too familiar with the procession line that is GT's AI.

It might just be you choose to read only favorable things about those games you favor. Or you're one of those lucky ones who has never had an issue with the F5 bots. Now one thing is that it's possible that your bots will only race properly if you go through the ordeal to test your friend's list and those they've raced with, because the Drivatar is based on a cloud of race data collated from your friend's list, and those people linked to it to who knows just what extent:

This is frustrating... any way to turn off Drivatars?

coldisgood posted...
When I have the setting low...they just won't get the **** out the way and will randomly break in the middle of a straight stretch. On expert and pro, I get rammed I'm every corner and they will swerve out of the racing line in straight stretches to know me off the road.

It's awful...

Jpierro79 posted...
The drivatars was a terrible idea. It's not even just turns that they ram you. I have multiple videos on a straight away that the just randomly ram you. Right before the brking point . There is no good setting to stop them gran turismo's AI was a 1000 times better. The drivatars ruin what would have been a good game. I literally find mind self utterly frustrated how this could have possibly been a good idea. And with damage on its even more frustrating because they come from drivers that ram and ruin your car. I though once you get up further they would get better but that crap just doesn't stop ever. Game is ruined. If they wanted a raeal world racing experience they should have made professional drivatars REAL PROS SHOULD HAVE BEE DRIVATARS. HOW ON EARTH IS THIS A REAL EXPERINCE WHEN THERE ARE NOOOO REAL RACE DRIVERS???

ascendedcobra posted...
Hey coldisgood, I saw your gamertag on the thread to get followers and friends. I tried that and as a matter of fact you were one I added to mine. The problem I had was once I did that the drivatars were just like you said. It was a derby not a race. After a few races like that I had to delete everyone I added and block a couple followers. After that the game was fine again. Now its more like a real race and maybe one per race will crash into me, whereas befor it was all 15.

However, if that's what it takes to have a good single player experience, this is one more reason I don't miss Forza 5. By the way, I bought almost all of RaceRoom and those bots are rather bash happy too.

...as covered in the blog article when you said something similar, the cost of one game, plus system, plus wheel, plus required online membership is the exact same for GT7 vs FM6, or even slightly more considering the PS4's price vs the XBOne. We could then talk about all the other games in each system's library, but as that has nothing to do with the topic, there's no point.

And you clearly failed to read that it was the cost to play one game. ONE. GAME. Did you read it that time? Remember, I'm a gamer, I LOVE the PS library. Well, since PS2 emerged. XBox, not so much.

It's funny that on a Gran Turismo board, people can't stick up for GT or they get the business about it, but you'd better darn well talk nice about all these other games, and you DARE not even use M-dollar sign or people get all bent about it. Seems a bit double standard...

 

[McLaren]

It's funny that on a Gran Turismo board, people can't stick up for GT or they get the business about it, but you'd better darn well talk nice about all these other games, and you DARE not even use M-dollar sign or people get all bent about it. Seems a bit double standard...

Please, the only double standard is you. Can't stick up for GT or they get the business? Pretty sure you've been in more than a fair share of discussions with folks chiming in, "This is a GT forum. Go to Forzaplanet".

It's almost surprising you're even in this section, but like Zer0, you don't actually seem intent on doing anything but verge on baiting.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

It might just be you choose to read only favorable things about those games you favor.

Seems you're still having trouble with that whole reading thing: I'm not basing it on anything I read, I'm basing it on the many hours I've actually spent playing the game. But go on, tell me about how the third-hand anecdotal posts you've just quoted are somehow more applicable for a game that you yourself haven't played. Or is this another case of you only picking and choosing unfavourable things about those games you don't favour?

Or you're one of those lucky ones who has never had an issue with the F5 bots. Now one thing is that it's possible that your bots will only race properly if you go through the ordeal to test your friend's list and those they've raced with, because the Drivatar is based on a cloud of race data collated from your friend's list, and those people linked to it to who knows just what extent:

This is frustrating... any way to turn off Drivatars?

Hey look, I can play the quote-mining game too:

I reactivated my Gamefaqs account just to post to this. Hasn't been my experience at all, TC. My biggest critique in single player, offline racing games is the robotic feeling of the AI drivers. From the tight packs in Gran Turismo that you were in either worst/first, or TOCA series, Forza, etc, that I've played over the past 15 years of racing games, I HATE predicable, robot AI. Drivatars have been a GODSEND for me personally. Yes, at times they're too aggressive, but in all my years of online racing they're about 1/10th as bad as the best online races in my experience. I love the randomness of the drivatars, personally, and have not had the same experience you have as they're raced aggressively, but quite civil for the most part. Only MINOR gripe I'd have is they brake too early, but otherwise it's been great and I've been thoroughly impressed with this new feature.

And you clearly failed to read that it was the cost to play one game. ONE. GAME. Did you read it that time? Remember, I'm a gamer, I LOVE the PS library. Well, since PS2 emerged. XBox, not so much.

I really don't know how to simplify it, so maybe you just can't understand: the price of entry for both FM6 and GT7, to someone starting with no equipment, is nearly the same. If one is circa $900, so is the other. The rest of the gaming library doesn't come into the discussion, because, rather obviously, it would come down to personal preference.

Again: the cost of entry for both games, with their respective wheels and systems, is the same.

It's funny that on a Gran Turismo board, people can't stick up for GT or they get the business about it, but you'd better darn well talk nice about all these other games, and you DARE not even use M-dollar sign or people get all bent about it. Seems a bit double standard...

"Stick up for"? Go ahead, provided it sticks to the AUP. Be critical of Forza? That too; you'll see it happens in this section (and again, do try to stick to the AUP). Try to turn every thread into a versus thread after numerous times of ignoring members of staff telling you not to? Make up stats and then refuse to show any evidence to back them up? Yep, those things won't go over well.

But please, point me to where you've been told you have to talk nice about certain games. And speaking of double standards: you want to be taken seriously by subbing in a dollar sign, so I imagine PoLIEphony is alright, then? Yes, that's one some particularly dim bulbs have used (and we've deleted). Oh no, it must be our secret agenda.

If anybody has to resort to childish name-changing, it tells me they have a pretty weak argument at best, and are just petty and immature at worst. If that's the image you wish to project, go ahead... at some other forum.

 

[Tenacious D]

Slip, listen. Your selective point-whittling is why I rarely engage with you. Obviously I have no intention of ever getting but one game for either system. You got me. Have a nice life.

By the way, you know you did start this senseless process with a rather silly tag. So do act all innocent about it.

And @McLaren, I guess it offends you that people do occasionally not adore Forza or Microsoft on a Gran Turismo board, go figure. Oh, the audacity.

 

[Imari]

...money grubbing which was F5.

By the way, I bought almost all of RaceRoom and those bots are rather bash happy too.

FM5 is money grubbing, yet you bought almost all of the nearly entirely micro-transaction based RaceRoom?

How ironic, given your past criticism of the iRacing model. Let's be honest, you're just as willing as anyone else to fork over big piles of cash for a game that you find fun, no matter how abusive the pricing model is.

 

[McLaren]

And @McLaren, I guess it offends you that people do occasionally not adore Forza or Microsoft on a Gran Turismo board, go figure. Oh, the audacity.

It doesn't offend me in the slightest; I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy.

Hilarious though that you're conjuring up some form of excuse once you reach the point that you simply can't discuss a topic anymore, just as you've done in the other section.

 

[TokoTurismo]

It doesn't offend me in the slightest; I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy.

Hilarious though that you're conjuring up some form of excuse once you reach the point that you simply can't discuss a topic anymore, just as you've done in the other section.

He's attempting to be a @Zer0. When he reaches to the point that he can't argue anymore, he'll disappear for months and then probably come back with more excuses to try to back up his claims or whatever nonsense he'll come up with. The other guy did this (many times) and look where he ended up.

 

[Tenacious D]

FM5 is money grubbing, yet you bought almost all of the nearly entirely micro-transaction based RaceRoom?

How ironic, given your past criticism of the iRacing model. Let's be honest, you're just as willing as anyone else to fork over big piles of cash for a game that you find fun, no matter how abusive the pricing model is.

There's a difference between forking over big piles of cash to a bunch who are struggling developers, very good developers - who declared bankruptcy not long ago, remember - and big piles of cash to a business who is not only market and customer hostile, but guilty in court of monopolistic practices. And are swimming in cash, though the market is beginning to turn on them a bit. And even though this is a big mystery to Slip for some unfathomable reason, spending six times what I spent on RaceRoom to play one single game, maybe one more in two years, should even give someone as monied as McLaren pause. Look, I have some mad money. It was my birthday. I suffered a severe backsprain. Seeing Forza 6 vids and pics was making me hungry for it, but the price tag to jump in was well over $800. Poking around for alternatives, my PC is speced below P CARS minimum. I wondered if RaceRoom looked more appealing than it had last year. It was. I decided to go for it. I kept throwing stuff into the Buy bin. I couldn't take anything back out once I saw the price tag because it all looked so good. And guess what? All total, I spent about the same as I had on Forza 4. I wouldd also point out that RaceRoom does have a very good offline single player gaming experience, unlike iRenting, which can easily cost twice as much or more than all the content of RR.

And everyone carries on as if Forza 5 is some sort of gift to the racing game community. But I know of a Eurogamer article article which probably hasn't been widely discussed here, and while frankly critical of F5, would probably be considered flamebait from me. Even though it's true, even though it's from a respected site, go figure.

It doesn't offend me in the slightest; I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy.

Hilarious though that you're conjuring up some form of excuse once you reach the point that you simply can't discuss a topic anymore, just as you've done in the other section.

Conjuring what, exactly? And just what do I drop, exactly?

• A lot of people here absolutely hate the Standard cars in Gran Turismo and can become rather heated discussing it. Many of them don't even want to entertain the option of offering the content as an install. And most of those same folk will accept, if grudgingly sometimes, the Standard tracks which in my opinion are uglier. Would this be productive, carrying on this discussion?
• A lot of people speak of the engine sounds in GT5 and 6 as nothing more than tricked up vacuum cleaner samples, even though they clearly have been improved in a number of cars - at least once in GT5 itself - and Griffith500 has been dogged in his explanations of how these people are incorrect. Would this be productive, carrying on this discussion?
• Many in the GT section insist that you can't lose to the bots, even though I've posted race replays in which I've lost. Yes, I've used underperforming cars, but yes, I have also lost fights to the finish line with them. And it was fun losing! But they don't want to hear that. Would this be productive, carrying on this discussion?

You're a funny guy, you, Slip and Toko.

 

[ImaRobot]

Yeah... not sure what I was thinking. Just a bit later I posted 19 months on another forum. I think I've been working for the Obama administration too long...


It might just be you choose to read only favorable things about those games you favor. Or you're one of those lucky ones who has never had an issue with the F5 bots. Now one thing is that it's possible that your bots will only race properly if you go through the ordeal to test your friend's list and those they've raced with, because the Drivatar is based on a cloud of race data collated from your friend's list, and those people linked to it to who knows just what extent:

The odd thing is, is that neither him nor I are reading into anything, more so describing our exact experience with the game. You are the only one selecting only certain negative quotes to point out to us, and then take some sort of jab at us as if we are just pulling this out of our ass. The funny thing is, is that no, you don't have to be selective with your friends list in order to get the desired results. I have people ranging from 10-15 seconds faster than me all the way to people that are a minute slower than me on the Nordschliefe. What exact experience do you have with the game to be able to make these calls? In order to get the best out of these Drivatars, you yourself have to actually be a good driver with good driving etiquette, other wise the problems arise because of you cutting of the drivers, you going straight into their line, not giving them space to break, ect..

In any case, I uploaded a video to show you my exact experience with the game since you choose to ignore it.



Not once did any of the things you described happen. Like I said however, they are to slow for me.

However, if that's what it takes to have a good single player experience, this is one more reason I don't miss Forza 5. By the way, I bought almost all of RaceRoom and those bots are rather bash happy too.

As explained above, its not.

And you clearly failed to read that it was the cost to play one game. ONE. GAME. Did you read it that time? Remember, I'm a gamer, I LOVE the PS library. Well, since PS2 emerged. XBox, not so much.

I'm not sure what this means. The cost of one game over the other is exactly the same.

It's funny that on a Gran Turismo board, people can't stick up for GT or they get the business about it, but you'd better darn well talk nice about all these other games, and you DARE not even use M-dollar sign or people get all bent about it. Seems a bit double standard...

The funny thing is, is that this is the ONLY place where it is safe to mention Forza, otherwise if you bring it up in literally any other part of the forum it turns into a full blown war of ignorance. Yeah, you dare not act like a jackass, or else you get delt with, its as easy as that. There have been all out discussions for years in this section, and as long as everyone acts mature about the situation, then its all fine. If you want to act like a child then yeah, you'll get dealt with. That has to do with EVERY PART OF THE FORUM IN EVERY SINGLE THREAD.

One thing that annoys me is how you always try to play the victim. You pretend that you cant post something because its coming from you? Oh give me a damn break. Get out of that mentality, because you are the only one holding on to that reason, no one else. If that was to be the case you would have been banned long ago for the stuff you write, and you wouldn't be allowed to discuss anything what so ever. Stop trying to pull the ridiculous pity card. Stop pretending they are out to get you.

There is no difference in giving money to a game you like that the publishers are doing bad concerning money, compared to giving money to a game that you like that the publishers are pretty well off. Thats very subjective thinking, and all that is is having pity for the less well of publisher, but thats down to morals and nothing to do with the game itself.

I don't know how you're holding it against the game that you chose to get every option imaginable in order to play it. That is no ones fault but your own and is nothing to bring up in a discussion as a point against the game as if it makes it worse for some reason. If you don't feel like forking over the money then thats fine, but stop bringing it up as something to jab against the game.

iRenting, M$, all this is showing is how immature you really are, and is exactly the reason why people get on you the way you do when talking about the subject. I just don't understand how you have not once used the same kind of wording when describing PD. Its ironic, really. It's not flamebait if you actually discuss instead of coming in and "insert article yeah blah blah M$ sucks they just want money."

If you can put together a sound argument, instead of acting like the immature person you've shown us with all the small jabs at a company as well as the people that support it, and then try to pretend that the mods are silencing you in some way, then its all good. You've yet to do that though.

 

[Ialyrn]

@Tenacious D @ImaRobot @SlipZtrEm

Tenacious, I have had my issues with the odd drivatar in FM5, but nothing on the level you seem to think it happens. M.Rossi from previous iterations of forza was worse in more ways to what I have seen in FM5, and even FH2. For my evidence on this, I use footage I recorded from week one of the Xbox ones and FM5's release.

(Day One)


(Week One)




As you can see from those week one videos, the AI are no way near as bash happy as you believe them to be. But they was more stupid back on week one than they are now. T10 over the past 2 years have refined the drivatar system, and have made more improvements for the upcoming FM6. As it currently stands though, FM1 has far better AI than anything GT can offer up in GT5 or 6. My credentials for having this opinion you may ask? I have played every forza and GT 1/2/3/4/5. Not to mention the countless other racing games since 1989, and on a big array of gaming hardware. Both consoles and PC's. The AI (and drivatars) in forza might be slow, but they have always provided me fairly clean racing. The funny thing with my vids however is this. More than half of my friends list on Xbox live is made up of drifters, not racers. Most of them are very slow in a race, most of them can not drive past a drivatar cleanly. And they only do the races to earn money for the upgrades on their drifting cars, that is it. And I still get clean races against the drivatars.

If you was talking about Multiplayer racing however, then you can quite certainly say there are some bash happy people out there. As evidenced in this video, take note of the two morons in the ford transit vans.

(Multi-Player race)


But that is just two people been idiots, which even happens in Iracing. It also happens in your beloved RRE, in Project cars, and even Assetto Corsa.

As for the DLC prices in Forza, they are not too bad at all. I have seen games that charge a hell of a lot more for things, both on consoles and pc. But the DLC is entirely optional, and no one needs to buy it if they do not want too. T10 still give away a good few free cars, and with FM5, we got 3 laser scanned tracks to boot. It really isn't anything to complain about at all. With regards to title updates and bug fixes, it is well known that with FM5 and FH2 that T10 applied bug fixes once a month when the DLC dropped. It gave them more time to work on them, to test them, and to make sure they didn't break anything else in the process. So anyone who says that there was no updates to FM5 or FH2 are talking out of a particular hole.

Everything comes down to personal preference though, and we play what we find to be the most fun. It would be boring if everyone had the same opinion on things, and it would be equally boring if we all liked the same things. Have fun with what ever you enjoy, and the rest of us will do the same with Forza.

p.s As for the price of entry, it is around the same for the Xbox one and the PS4. As it stands, the only racing game worth getting on the PS4 is driveclub. On the xbox one there are now 3 first party racing games on the market, though FM6 is still a month and a bit out.

 

[McLaren]

Conjuring what, exactly? And just what do I drop, exactly?

Excuses to stop discussing anything. At a certain point in numerous instances, you decide you're finished talking & just completely erase anything someone said followed by stuff like this.

Tor, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to keep up with all your issues with Gran Turismo. I submit to you that you must be right, don't buy GT7.

Awright, look. This argument is spinning in circles, as usually happens with you, Tornado and Johnnypenso.

Let's get basic here. Do you really think fans want a smaller Gran Turismo 7?

Do you really think the millions of fans who are still buying GT5 and 6 are holding their noses in disgust over the Standard cars, tracks and fold out trees, and somehow the mass of gaming journos and bloggers have missed it?

Go ahead and think whatever you want. But more than a third of us want many of the things I express in my posts, and I do have quite a few Likes on many of them, so pretending I'm the lone loony voice out in the swamp on these issues isn't quite accurate.

• A lot of people here absolutely hate the Standard cars in Gran Turismo and can become rather heated discussing it. Many of them don't even want to entertain the option of offering the content as an install. And most of those same folk will accept, if grudgingly sometimes, the Standard tracks which in my opinion are uglier. Would this be productive, carrying on this discussion?
• A lot of people speak of the engine sounds in GT5 and 6 as nothing more than tricked up vacuum cleaner samples, even though they clearly have been improved in a number of cars - at least once in GT5 itself - and Griffith500 has been dogged in his explanations of how these people are incorrect. Would this be productive, carrying on this discussion?
• Many in the GT section insist that you can't lose to the bots, even though I've posted race replays in which I've lost. Yes, I've used underperforming cars, but yes, I have also lost fights to the finish line with them. And it was fun losing! But they don't want to hear that. Would this be productive, carrying on this discussion?

You're a funny guy, you, Slip and Toko.

None of this has anything to do with the discussion. What is common is the underlined parts. It's never you, it's always everyone else.

What else is common are the constant, little comments about how there's so much anti-GT in a GT forum, but no one can say anything negative about other games. You claim, "It might just be you choose to read only favorable things about those games you favor", yet against PCars & Forza, it's more along the lines of you just choosing to blurt out negative things about games you don't seem to like being compared to GT.

 

[Tornado]

And @McLaren, I guess it offends you that people do occasionally not adore Forza or Microsoft on a Gran Turismo board, go figure. Oh, the audacity.

This is a patently strange claim for you to make, since you've been directly shown examples of people chewing out Turn 10 and Forza and Microsoft for various things about specific Forza titles after you've spouted the "people are only allowed to complain about GT" garbage in the past, and yet none of the exchanges you were shown resulted in McLaren butting in out of the blue to call everyone some name and complain about double standards and say people should go back to the GT section instead.
I can easily dig up posts regarding Forza 5 where people were complaining about how the low initial car count and especially the initial DLC for Forza 5 were ridiculous since the circumstances surrounding both were so suspicious. I can easily dig up posts of people complaining about Microsoft's policies regarding accessory compatibility and the apparent resulting money gouging for the Xbone. I can easily dig up posts regarding Forza 5 where people are calling out Turn 10 statements about the development of Forza 5 because they didn't actually mesh with the reality of the released game. Are you similarly asserting that for every one of those Turn 10-critical posts I'll be able to find a post where McLaren (or anyone, really) marched into the thread just to tell those people to stop whining and go post somewhere else or whatever? Because they certainly do exist (I remember one laughable one telling people that they shouldn't be allowed to use their 360 wheels anymore, because they are so obsolete they simply can't function well enough to do what Xbone developers will theoretically want to do with racing games), but according to the insinuations you're constantly making they should be near universal, with even the staff getting in on telling people essentially to shut up when they criticize the mighty ¥urn 10, Micro$oft and ForƵa series.



In fact, I'd say that while I don't frequently post in this subforum, I almost always watch it; and with one notable exception (who regularly gets chewed out it anyway, so the regulars of this forum probably know whom I'm referring to), no one in this subforum seems to have the finely honed Turn 10 equivalent to the "PD Sense" that you and (to a far greater extent) our dearly departed Zer0 went out of their way to bring to bear at any given opportunity right up to the point where the argument went bad for you (at which point you only then claimed that you had better things to do than argue about something you brought up because everyone is against you anyway).

 

[SimTourist]

This thread is a remarkable read.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Slip, listen. Your selective point-whittling is why I rarely engage with you.

Are you bothered that I used the exact same thread you linked and found a post that didn't match up with your pre-determined opinion? Talk about double standards, indeed.

By the way, you know you did start this senseless process with a rather silly tag. So do act all innocent about it.

What? I won't deny you were tagged; I found it humourous a member described Forza 5's bots as too orderly, after only a single play. It's not really much more than you've played it, mind, but you've pretty consistently proclaimed they're bash-happy, so I thought you'd find it interesting too.

And everyone carries on as if Forza 5 is some sort of gift to the racing game community.

...have you bothered looking around this section? People are critical of the game. That you keep pushing this narrative is odd in the extreme, and I think even you know it's false. I myself was very critical of FM5's DLC until the later packs (and especially the track booster packs) started showing up.

Although in the general sense, FM5 is a gift, just as most racing games are. The more options, the better: a good chunk of us don't believe in having to stay loyal to one particular franchise.

But I know of a Eurogamer article article which probably hasn't been widely discussed here, and while frankly critical of F5, would probably be considered flamebait from me. Even though it's true, even though it's from a respected site, go figure.

I know of a few articles that are critical of GT6. What's your point, exactly?

A lot of people here absolutely hate the Standard cars in Gran Turismo and can become rather heated discussing it. Many of them don't even want to entertain the option of offering the content as an install. And most of those same folk will accept, if grudgingly sometimes, the Standard tracks which in my opinion are uglier. Would this be productive, carrying on this discussion?

Go hash that out with those folks who have those particular thoughts, then. I'm certain you're aware of my stance on Standards, but just in case: I don't think Standard cars or Standard (PS2-era) tracks should find their way onto a PS4 GT game. That is beyond laughable for a team that wants to crow about their graphics at any possible opportunity. I'd much rather PD focus on a game that is nothing but the best work they're capable of doing, with the system they're working with. None of this "we built models that are really better suited for the next generation" stuff we heard in the PS3 days, and no reliance on outdated, decade-old assets either. It's not a crazy concept to build a PS4 game for the PS4.

A lot of people speak of the engine sounds in GT5 and 6 as nothing more than tricked up vacuum cleaner samples, even though they clearly have been improved in a number of cars - at least once in GT5 itself - and Griffith500 has been dogged in his explanations of how these people are incorrect. Would this be productive, carrying on this discussion?

Improved =/= accurate. As someone quick to point out FM4's overdone engine sounds, it's odd you don't notice that the vast majority of GT's lean the other way (or are just plain wrong). How many of the 1200 cars had improved samples?

Many in the GT section insist that you can't lose to the bots, even though I've posted race replays in which I've lost. Yes, I've used underperforming cars, but yes, I have also lost fights to the finish line with them. And it was fun losing! But they don't want to hear that. Would this be productive, carrying on this discussion?

Any chance I get to post this again:

 

[Imari]

There's a difference between forking over big piles of cash to a bunch who are struggling developers, very good developers - who declared bankruptcy not long ago, remember - and big piles of cash to a business who is not only market and customer hostile, but guilty in court of monopolistic practices.

Is there? Why? It seems the same to me, you're paying money for a product that you like. Why does it matter who the money goes to?

And even though this is a big mystery to Slip for some unfathomable reason, spending six times what I spent on RaceRoom to play one single game, maybe one more in two years, should even give someone as monied as McLaren pause.

How much did you spend, out of interest? It looks like several hundred dollars to get anywhere near most of the content from where I'm sitting, but I'm not going to be bothered adding it up.

But still, I don't see the difference. If you've already got the hardware to play one game but not the other then there's an obvious incentive to buy one. If you don't have hardware for either, it's the same. If you have hardware for both, it's the same.

Nobody pays $800 just to play Forza, just as no one will pay $800 to play GT7. That would be either insane, or you have more money than you know what to do with. People buy consoles (and PCs) because they can do many things with them, one of which is play Forza or GT.

I mean, how much did your computer cost? Do you add that to the price that you spent on RRRE when adding up what it cost you to play?

And everyone carries on as if Forza 5 is some sort of gift to the racing game community.

Where has anyone said that or anything like it?

It's a decent game for an early title, just like GT3 and GT5P were in their day. It has it's issues, but being money grubbing isn't one of them. The base game provides decent value for what it is, it doesn't have abusive F2P type microtransactions, and it provides a reasonable amount of optional extra content at a premium price. That's good business.

What is your problem here?

 

[GranTurismo guy]

Nobody pays $800 just to play Forza, just as no one will pay $800 to play GT7. That would be either insane, or you have more money than you know what to do with.

I guess that makes me insane then. Yay!

 

[Ialyrn]

I guess that makes me insane then. Yay!

I bought the Xbox one for Forza Motorsport titles, just as I got the 360 before it for Forza Motorsport. I even bought the TX wheel for it, just a shame it broke after 6 months. Over the years though, I have bulked my xbox game library out with other games....... which I hardly ever play lol. The vast quantity of multiplats, I buy on PC when available. Better graphics usually, better controller support, and can use my G27 with any multiplat racing games. Not to mention the countless other USB peripherals that are available, such as flight sticks/joysticks that can do double duty as a handbrake in some racing games. As long as forza motorsport is fun to me though, I will always buy into the Xbox ecosystem for it. Any other first party games I get, well they are just a bonus.

 

[ChromeBallz]

Company was doing rather well last year, so every employee got an Xbox One for christmas. So i thought, hell, why not get Forza while i'm at it?

It was already a long time since i touched GT6... Some of those little things that kept creeping up. The AI posed no challenge whatsoever, the career was uninspired, the sound was just bad and the visuals inconsistent at best. Overtime it felt like i was playing an enhanced version of GT2, not a brand new game for the PS3. The driving feel was there, but something was 'off'. It didn't have any personality at all.

The thing is, i didn't realize it untill i spent some time in FM5.

Colour me surprised when i booted up FM5. It's brash and gawdy, but it's consistent and fun. The experience on the track blows GT6 away - The AI is actually believable and i'm having a lot of fun just racing. In GT6, it felt like i was leading a procession, i just wasn't having any fun. Letting the graphics and sound be what they are, the racing forms the very core of both games and it's really just that much better in FM5...



I'm a casual racer. I'm a gamer, not a sim enthusiast. I do have a liking for cars though, hence i got GT back in the day and stuck with it, it having dictacted my choice of console. I can't comment on the realism, the handling, or whatever, i don't even have a driving license, but i can comment on the games themselves.

GT2 was a revelation (my first GT game), before that it was all 'Need for Speed' and the like. I loved the variety of cars and circuits and the challenge in driving them all well (aside from the bounce-bounce Escude style driving). I didn't get a PS2 untill a lot later, so i skipped GT3 but GT4 rekindled my love for the series. There still weren't many other games around that could compete, most being either full-on sims or limited to specific race series. A game about 'just cars and racing them' was what i wanted and GT4 offered it in spades.

However, when it came to GT5 - A game of which i have the collector's edition and specifically bought a PS3 for - The flames sort of slowed down. While it looked excellent for its time, the gameplay itself became very opaque. It gave a very half-assed impression with the inclusion of standard cars and a lot of naggles from GT4 remained, which i hoped were fixed for GT5.

Intermission: I loved GT5P, which i got as i picked up the PS3 while awaiting the arrival of GT5 a month later. While offering little content, it was very stylized and consistent, as well as intuitive. I'm still baffled why Polyphony didn't take that design and went with it for GT5.

Anyway, GT5 came and went, i spent a few months on all the various cars and circuits before becoming either bored or annoyed.

I didn't pick it back up untill GT6 was released, but for some reason it became the GT game i spent the least amount of time on. Half the time i couldn't see whether i was playing GT5 or GT6, for all the good and bad it did. It felt like a rehash which STILL had features missing from the game before it, and felt even more inconsistent than before.

Truth is, i started truly doubting Polyphony after an announcement that 'they made sure to realistically model the night's sky'. In all seriousness, that's one of the least useful features ever to be put into a game, right next to having a brick shot at you whenever you make a house without a toilet in the Sims. I couldn't believe they actually spent time and money on that... Not to mention use it as a marketing point for a racing game.

Then GT6 came, and i was forced to buy that freakin Honda Fit, and it only signalled the start of the problems. The only real improvement from GT5 to GT6 was the main menu, but now it looked bland, uninspired and boring rather than convoluted and unintuitive. Hardly an improvement there, really.

As a bit of an amateur astronomer i did rather like the moon sections, but more because of the romanticism of driving on the moon than anything else. As a gamer, i can understand why people hated those and to be brutally honest, that's time and energy that could have been put somewhere else.

I played the game for a few weeks, but got bored again. The racing got even worse somehow as the AI seemed to have become even dumber over the years... The lack of a proper lock on car classes and points on most races also meant you could pretty much take an F1 car and race it against stock VW Beetles, making the entire excercise pointless.

License tests?

So, to me, as a gamer, what was the game offering to me beyond this point? Honestly, not that much.


Enter FM5. All cars given the same amount of attention and detail. Racing actually being challenging, even at lower levels (for me). Consistent grids of similar cars, including my own. Sound that actually gets you excited just hearing it, never mind in combination with the car on the screen.

It gives me a feeling i haven't felt since GT2, something fresh with the same formula. Attention to the big picture, not small details, most of which will never be released anyway. It has a razor sharp focus that was missing from GT since 4.

It's very hard not to be a bit venomous towards GT. I've played the series since 1999 and i've had a lot of fun with it. Thing is, it's hard not to feel betrayed, despite GT just being a game. Polyphony owes me nothing, i am just a consumer and i keep buying their games, however it's hard to be enthusiastic towards a game series which basically hasn't changed at all since it's inception, not even fixing it's own mistakes which have endured for 17 years now.

I do fear that this post has turned into reasons why not to like GT rather than why GT or FM is better than the other, but i feel it does illustrate the entire point of the debate.

Of course FM5 has it's downsides. It's roster is nowhere near as padded out as GT's in terms of both cars and tracks. The DLC prices can be seen as exhorbitant. It's too easy to get new cars. But it just feels so much more consistent, and the racing is just so much more fun, even leaving aside graphics, sound and customization it just feels like the better way to spend my time. I do admit that i miss weather and ToD though. The only reason i'd play GT6 again is for an endurance race on Le Mans with weather/ToD enabled, but everything else about it is making me hesitate...


As for the physics debate: I think FM5 feels better to play after having spent some time with it. GT6 feels lifeless and almost unresponsive, most cars feel very similar. FM5 offers more variety in less cars and feels more challenging and fun to play.

Whether one or the other has better physics is completely irrelevant. Pure sim racers go to Project CARS, iRacing, Asetto Corsa or any one of those, they don't play a console game for that. That kind of discussion feels incredibly hollow to me, hence i've avoided it in the rest of my post.


Sorry if this is a bit ranty, but i felt i had to get it out.

 

[Ialyrn]

@ChromeBallz That is a nice little write up you have there. Only thing I disagree with is the comment at the end about Sim racers going for Pcars, which in terms of physics is below Forza in my opinion. I am saying this as a WMD member, not just a gamer who plays racing games. Been playing Pcars for well over 3 years by this point. Forza, at least in terms of its physics, is not to far removed from something like Assetto Corsa in all fairness. I played both with a TX wheel. The main thing that lets forza down with a wheel, is a deadzone in the force feedback at the wheels center. But this exact same deadzone in the FFB can be there on PC also, I think it is just a settings issues. Hopefully T10 has sorted that for FM6. Just recently in Assetto, they released the Toyota GT86 for free (with a few other cars and a new track). And with that car on the Nords, I am always in the exact same gear around corners as I am in Forza 5, with the exact same corner speeds on the stock road tires, and get damn near identical times. I am slightly faster on Assetto than Forza, as my TX wheel broke a while back. I have been using a G27 on pc since though. I am fast with either a wheel or control pad, but I prefer the smoothness a wheel brings. And as such, I can edge out slightly faster times on a wheel.

As for GT, I have played 1 through to 5. I used to love playing GT, especially the third iteration in the series. Now though, I am still debating whether or not to buy another PS3 so I can give GT6 a go. I started to fall out of love with GT when number 4 came along, just didn't like it as much as the first 3 games. It also didn't feel as if it had anything new to offer. Two months later and Forza Motorsport was released to the world. I already had an Xbox for Project Gotham Racing and Halo. I was hooked from the moment I put it into my console, and I never looked back. It felt new (because it was), and T10 had tried to do new things. It was so much more fun to play than GT4, and the livery editor was insane for the time. Not to mention the Drivatar system actually debuted in FM1, though it was very different to what we have now in FM5. It provided the basis for the learning AI however, and you was able to train your own drivatar.... and even race against it. That was so much more satisfying that racing against a ghost, as you couldn't drive though your drivatar while racing it. And as much as people like to go around saying that Forza have never done night racing before the Horizon series, well there was a little gem called "pacific shipyards" in the first Forza Motorsport. Which was racing at night, and it was a lot of fun; and was a great drifting track. I think was clinched it for me though, was the fact that forza from the get go had better sounds, a much better grasp on lift off oversteer, power on oversteer, understeer, torque steer, and weight transfer. It made the whole thing more challenging. But sadly Forza got labeled as an arcade racer by the hardcore GT fans, and that has lasted from 2005 till 2015. You still get some hardcore GT fans saying the exact same thing.

 

[TJC_69]

Please, the only double standard is you. Can't stick up for GT or they get the business? Pretty sure you've been in more than a fair share of discussions with folks chiming in, "This is a GT forum. Go to Forzaplanet".

It's almost surprising you're even in this section, but like Zer0, you don't actually seem intent on doing anything but verge on baiting.

I've also experienced that guys unusual style of posting in the news section, defending GT beligerently on a project cars news item because I had the audacity to compare SMS' fanbase interaction with that of Polyphony Digitals. Furthering with his 3rd hand knowledge of people being banned from SMS's Facebook page, and ultimately coming across as not even playing one second of project cars.

Furthermore, he went on to say that the reason that most people are on GT due to Gran Turismo, and that -

Tenacious D

If it doesn't suit you, there are plenty of other racers, and forums, which will

https://www.gtplanet.net/multiplaye...er-and-more-coming-in-project-cars-patch-3-0/

So apparently I should not post on GTP if my post is critical of gran turismo according to this guy. Seems he'll even fervently argue with moderators all day also as i'm seeing above also... Sigh.

Anyway, on topic - In my opinion I think GT6 wasn't the game that it should've been. I think that PD should've released it on the PS4 instead. In terms of Forza, I have only played the first title. Forza 6 is looking visually impressive, I wonder how the physics are in the series thesedays.

 

[VXR]

At this point I feel about done with GT, simply because 5 and 6 were too similar in approach. I'd much rather the eventual 7 was either a straight reboot, or at the very least had a more 'every day' car selection in the vein of 2 and 4.

 

[SimTourist]

Forza, at least in terms of its physics, is not to far removed from something like Assetto Corsa in all fairness. I played both with a TX wheel. The main thing that lets forza down with a wheel, is a deadzone in the force feedback at the wheels center. But this exact same deadzone in the FFB can be there on PC also, I think it is just a settings issues. Hopefully T10 has sorted that for FM6.

I remember the insidesimracing guy pointed this out in his Forza 5 review, and then when Horizon 2 launched the issue wasn't there, so we can hope they took that into FM6 as well.