Forza 5 physics vs GT6 аnd other sims

[Imari]

The worst part about it is that it's forced on in some events.

Yeah.

People complain about rewind making Forza arcadish, but apart from one section of tutorial you're never forced to use it to complete the game. SRF on the other hand is literally designed to modify the physics to be less realistic and more user friendly, and cannot be switched off in parts of the game.

I'd have much less of a problem with SRF if it was always optional, and if it didn't automatically make you faster. TC and ABS make you faster, but it's technically possible to go as fast without them if you have miraculous levels of throttle and brake control. And TC in particular isn't always a benefit, sometimes you want a bit of slip. But it's simply not possible to go as fast without SRF as it is with it (if you're using the correct throw-it-sideways-at-every-corner SRF technique).

 

[Scaff]

For me SRF is a total nightmare as I literally can't drive with it, the cars don't react as they should.

Goodwood special events are a nightmare as a result, totally ruining what I had hoped would be great fun. I just don't understand why it's forced on in these events.

 

[UKMikey]

Skid reduction force may explain why some GT players are complaining that FM5 is too slidey if they're used to going faster around corners.

 

[abso]

Yeah.

People complain about rewind making Forza arcadish, but apart from one section of tutorial you're never forced to use it to complete the game. SRF on the other hand is literally designed to modify the physics to be less realistic and more user friendly, and cannot be switched off in parts of the game.

I'd have much less of a problem with SRF if it was always optional, and if it didn't automatically make you faster. TC and ABS make you faster, but it's technically possible to go as fast without them if you have miraculous levels of throttle and brake control. And TC in particular isn't always a benefit, sometimes you want a bit of slip. But it's simply not possible to go as fast without SRF as it is with it (if you're using the correct throw-it-sideways-at-every-corner SRF technique).

You mean this @0:50 even though in full throttle somehow he manages not to lose any grip

 

[Fezz_ST]

You mean this @0:50 even though in full throttle somehow he manages not to lose any grip

Compare that to my lap in FM4 which is a full 3 seconds slower!

 

[abso]

That was some fine driving mate , good one !! 👍

What wheel do you have ?

 

[Fezz_ST]

Controller

 

[HAL20XX]

For the past week, I've been bouncing back and forth between both games, usually starting on GT6 first, and I realized what the big difference is: front-wheel grip/turn-in quickness. In GT6, nearly every car has lightning quick turn-in, whereas in Forza it's not as common. I noticed that the 787 in Forza turns nearly identical to most cars in GT6 but many of the lower level cars in FM don't exhibit this behavior. Can any wheel users confirm if this is due to permanent aids for controller users?

 

[Fezz_ST]

For the past week, I've been bouncing back and forth between both games, usually starting on GT6 first, and I realized what the big difference is: front-wheel grip/turn-in quickness. In GT6, nearly every car has lightning quick turn-in, whereas in Forza it's not as common. I noticed that the 787 in Forza turns nearly identical to most cars in GT6 but many of the lower level cars in FM don't exhibit this behavior. Can any wheel users confirm if this is due to permanent aids for controller users?

You must not be fitting comfort hard to every car possible

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

For the past week, I've been bouncing back and forth between both games, usually starting on GT6 first, and I realized what the big difference is: front-wheel grip/turn-in quickness. In GT6, nearly every car has lightning quick turn-in, whereas in Forza it's not as common. I noticed that the 787 in Forza turns nearly identical to most cars in GT6 but many of the lower level cars in FM don't exhibit this behavior. Can any wheel users confirm if this is due to permanent aids for controller users?

Adjust steering sensitivity, on some cars setting it at -2 helps a lot, like Diablo GT2 for example. GT6 has very responsive input, even with a wheel, the Diablo GT2 is very responsive ( steering sensitivity also affect wheel somewhat - from what I've read on other threads ) PD somehow increase the response, maybe in effort to make controlling the car with the stick easier ( less sluggish on stock suspension )

Fitting comfort tires ( close to real grip also help as sports tire or semi slick are very grippy ) Thanks Fezz, you are funny guy

Check my replica tunes on my sig if interested to drive cars tuned differently than most tuners in GTPlanet - I have my own ways to tune LSD and suspension. Will be posting ( Pedders ) VY Commodore SS and Bee Racing R32 GTR ( Buddy Club Coil Over and NISMO GT LSD Pro Carbon )

EDIT : There's no permanent aid for stick in GT6, there's only the usual steering buffer to translate analog stick movement to car's steering range - not an aid IMO, but design necessity for such controller, just like when older wheel limited to 200 degrees rotation.

And this sums it up nicely about comfort tires :

I've been testing various cars with various tires for about one year now. I started this in GT5, trying to find best real-life equivalent tires for each car, based on lap times. Mostly on Tsukuba, but also at Nordschleife, Suzuka and Laguna Seca. I've literally spent nights comparing my in-game laps with real ones, so I would like to make couple of points:

1. Comfort Tires are more grippy in GT6, than they were in GT5 on most cars. Also the weight of the car has bigger impact on car's handling. Lighter cars are generally much faster on same tires in GT6, than in GT5 - Lotus Elise 111R on Comfort Medium is a great example, also '02 NSX Type R - on Nordschleife on CM I was able to achieve time of 8.03 in GT5 (7.56 to the line after last corner - like almost all Nurburgring lap times are measured). In GT6 I get 7.55 at second lap I've run.

2. Tsukuba seems to be best for comparing lap times, because there is a lot of Best Motoring videos on the internet, also many lap times can be seen for example on fastest laps site. But, there is a but Tsukuba lap times vary up to 2-3 seconds for the same car because of track conditions, mostly the temperature. For example Honda NSX Type S Zero record is 1.05 seconds, achieved in dry conditions in winter with temperature of 0 to 1 degree Celsius. The same car in hot, summer day (24-26 degree Celsius) can achieve 1.07 to 1.08 seconds. I don't know, if the temperature influence on handling is modelled in GT6, but track information before the race shows about 25 degree Celsius in game. Thinking logically, it shouldn't be possible to achieve record lap times, that were set in winter conditions in reality, in same car wearing most close-to-stock tires in the game. And this attitude appears to be working in most cases. For example:
Car: Honda NSX Type S Zero '97, CM tires, only ABS set at 1, rest turned off
- Tsukuba: Real life record time - 1.05, my record in game - 1.05.6 (0.6 seconds slower, it was very hard to achieve such a fast lap)
- Suzuka: Real life record time - 2.34, my record in game - 2.31 (3 seconds faster)
- Nordschleife: Real life record time - 8.10, my record in game - 8.11 (8.07 to the line after last corner, so 4 seconds faster)
I've used this car as an example, because it's very skittish, and hard to drive, for me at least. But even with car this hard to control I've managed to set faster lap times on 2 of 3 tracks.
My conslusion is - that some lap times on Tsukuba cannot be achieved, while using the most true-to-life in-game tires, because of the fact, that in reality they were set on much better track conditions, than conditions available in game.

3. Many cars can achieve better/slower lap times in game than in reality, not only because of the tires. For example - Toyota Supra RZ '97. Almost all 1990's JDM sport cars like NSX, GTR, Lancer, Impreza etc. feels, and can achieve very realistic lap times on CM tires. But with the Supra, there is a problem. It's a lot slower on CM than it should be. The problem is messed up weight distrribution, which in game is Front/Rear: 60:40. In real life it should have 53/47 for turbo (RZ) model. When you correct this, by installing weight reduction and then adding balast to the rear, suddenly all seems to work just fine. With correct weight distribution I'm second faster on Tsukuba, and I can easily set lap time of 1.44,5 on Laguna Seca (1 sec faster than real-life record). I'm writing this because weight distribution and weight itself has very big impact on car's handling in GT6.

4. From what I've tested on both GT5 and GT6, and I have really driven a lot of stock cars, if You want to have tires that match the reality (of course considering lap times), majority of cars should wear Comfort Medium tires. Comfort Soft match almost perfectly 458 Italia, Corvette Zr-1, Lexus LFA, Enzo and this type of thing. The only stock car,that I've found so far that sets realistic lap times in game on Sports Hard tires is the Viper ACR, maybe also the LFA Nurburgring Edition with its 7.14 Nurburgring lap record, but I haven's tested it yet. Even 7.18 record of 2012 Nissan GT-R can be set on Comfort Soft Tires (In Gt at least). There is a lot in-car record laps at Nurburgring available to watch. If you want, try to set best lap time that You can, than compare it to real life lap. Watch your best lap in replay and real life footage simultaneously, and check for yourself. I assure You, that on Sport Hard You will be a lot, lot faster than driver that drives in real car. And yes, I agree that fear takes part in real "Green Hell" lap, but the much better grip of SH tires in game is most visible in slow corners, and during braking. I just don't think real racing driver would fear THAT MUCH
Great example of this is 1990 Acura NSX 8.16 lap set by Gan San. I've set about 3 seconds slower lap in game on CM tires. Then I played real footage on my computer, and my lap in replay mode in cockpit camera. And You know what? It was fantastic to see exact moments of turning, even the braking points and downshifts were done in almost the same moments That really felt, like I'm as fast, and as good driver as Motoharu Kurosawa My lap time was slower, not because of worse handling by CM tires, but by the fact, that in game 1990 Acura NSX was slower in the straight lines (yes, it's not always that cars in GT are faster on long straights).

5. Polyphony Digital gave us information about most close to life tires 3 times during the GT5 period:
- During the Toyota GT-86 competition in Japan CH tires were used as most close to life counterparts
- During the SLS AMG event on Top Gear Test Track GT5 players used CS tires. David Coulthard was in fact faster in real life, but as you can see from the footage, he was cutting like hell. Players weren't allowed to cut corners in way that he did
- Audi R8 V10 at Laguna Seca - PD said that CM (yes, I know it's hard to believe, as it was for me) are closest to real stock tires. Link:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...-gt5-virtual-v-reality-at-laguna-seca.227775/

I'm sorry for such a long and boring post , and also for my not very good English. I've felt that after so many days I've spent trying different tires on different cars I have to share my conclusions and results. Maybe for some of You, who enjoy driving stock cars on realistic tires in GT6, this post will be helpful. In a couple of months I will post a list of cars with closest to reality tires based on lap times, if someone will be interested. Of course it would be great, if Polyphony Digital gave us this kind of information, but they didn't, and I doubt they will. And it's not that it seems that they don't know, considering how close the laptimes are to reality, when using right tires.

 

[HAL20XX]

Actually, I meant that for Forza. Fortunately, I have a wheel for GT.

 

[Imari]

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...rs-the-gt6-physics.291068/page-6#post-9141744

Some people seem to be finding that zero camber is max grip for GT6.

Does anyone else have experience with this?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Nope, I run some camber on all my cars ( some more than 3 front ), and they are fine to drive.

 

[ImaRobot]

Nope, I run some camber on all my cars ( some more than 3 front ), and they are fine to drive.

I can drive my cars untuned and they work fine as well. This disproved what?

 

[Imari]

Nope, I run some camber on all my cars ( some more than 3 front ), and they are fine to drive.

It's not that they're not fine to drive, it's that they have more grip at zero.

In real life, cars are drivable at any moderately sensible camber angle, but it doesn't mean grip is maximised.

 

[Johnnypenso]

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...rs-the-gt6-physics.291068/page-6#post-9141744

Some people seem to be finding that zero camber is max grip for GT6.

Does anyone else have experience with this?

All my tunes have zero camber for this reason. I tried adding it when I first started tuning and it only seemed to reduce grip. I didn't even bother trying the last couple of cars. I was thinking about going back and adding camber to the rear of a couple of FF's to loosen them up, but figured PD would eventually fix this and the cars would be worse after the patch.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I can drive my cars untuned and they work fine as well. This disproved what?

I am fine with the cars I tuned and their grip level, I didn't say if they are wrong if zero camber has max grip, I usually start with zero camber all around when tuning/testing, but I always end up adding camber anyway, maybe my driving and tuning style is different - if you look at my replica garage you'll know When I had zero camber, I only sense a bit more stability, that's all, but more camber seems to like me - always tuned camber at Apricot Hill and Willow Springs ( Big Willow )

 

[Imari]

If someone was interested, this could be tested at the Willow skid pan. If you measure the maximum speed you can hold the car going around the circle, it should increase as you increase the camber until it reaches a peak, and then it should drop away. If it simply decreases from zero that's a sign that there's something wrong with the camber modelling.

I'd do it myself, but I don't have the game. I'd probably pick something like a Miata to try it, but any car that you find stable and easy to replicate results should work fine. Steps of 0.5° should be more than enough to see the effect, even 1.0° should show something.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

If someone was interested, this could be tested at the Willow skid pan. If you measure the maximum speed you can hold the car going around the circle, it should increase as you increase the camber until it reaches a peak, and then it should drop away. If it simply decreases from zero that's a sign that there's something wrong with the camber modelling.

I'd do it myself, but I don't have the game. I'd probably pick something like a Miata to try it, but any car that you find stable and easy to replicate results should work fine. Steps of 0.5° should be more than enough to see the effect, even 1.0° should show something.

Did that already several days ago with my VY Commodore SS replica, zero camber front and then more than 3 camber, I can hold similar speed at just around 61-63kmh on comfort medium I have custom suspension with pedders spring rate, 1.5 way LSD, stock weight, and a bit over 370HP.

 

[Imari]

Did that already several days ago with my VY Commodore SS replica, zero camber front and then more than 3 camber, I can hold similar speed at just around 61-63kmh on comfort medium I have custom suspension with pedders spring rate, 1.5 way LSD, stock weight, and a bit over 370HP.

You need a few points of reference though. If your points are 0° and 3° and they're the same, it begs the question of whether changing camber alters the grip at all. Obviously it alters the feel of the car which is what you're dialing into, but it's possible that the camber changes some other factor that fudges the feel.

Or you just happened to get lucky and get equal points on either side of peak grip. That's probably more likely, but you can't know without trying 1.5°.

I mean, in GT1 and 2 changing the camber changed car behaviour but I'm sure it wasn't because of the effect on the tyre contact patch. No way was GT1 modelling tyres.

I don't want to be a negative nancy, I'm sure this is just something that arises from having horrendously limited telemetry and having to rely on feel. I'll be shocked if they haven't modelled at least some camber effect. But it's interesting, nonetheless.

 

[thechosenwonton]

Actually, I meant that for Forza. Fortunately, I have a wheel for GT.

Yes. Not with throttle or brake really, but with steering, most certainly yes. You can just hold the joystick full right or full left when in a corner, and the front will grip at maximum. There may be other things going on as the cars do seem more stable with the controller but I don't use one enough to say for certain, I might just be driving more cautiously/slower, but am certain about the steering issue.

I personally understand this decision (was the same for fm4), as it gives controller users the ability to go head to head with wheel users because it helps their ability to control the car, and while I understand the logic of it, I don't have to embrace it

 

[HAL20XX]

^^^ Good to hear because I really like the directness in steering in GT.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

About SRF, I find it quite annoying it is forced on for licence tests. Makes you have to try and drive so car skids to get maximum out of lap time. Today I was doing the first S Licence test, any managed to top number 1 on friend list time, problem was it did not update. Anyway I explored the limit further, I think it is possible to go under 1:43 for S-1 Licence test. Hard to do though as you just have to get the right weight transfer and throttle control to get the magic grip and tricky to do all the way through the lap especially as I'm doing all tests without ABS. Will try again soon as second time it still did not update, shame they forced SRF on all the learning events, all it teaches you is how to get the most out of Skid Recovery Force .

 

[SlyNine]

Yes. Not with throttle or brake really, but with steering, most certainly yes. You can just hold the joystick full right or full left when in a corner, and the front will grip at maximum. There may be other things going on as the cars do seem more stable with the controller but I don't use one enough to say for certain, I might just be driving more cautiously/slower, but am certain about the steering issue.

I personally understand this decision (was the same for fm4), as it gives controller users the ability to go head to head with wheel users because it helps their ability to control the car, and while I understand the logic of it, I don't have to embrace it

I do not find this to be the case in Forza. I can definitely get better grip when not holding the stick 100%. Sometimes when the car is settled in a corner I can push the stick all the way but only on certain corners under specific conditions. In most conditions I'm seasawing the stick to find that peak angle of slip.

 

[VXR]

One thing I like about the new handling model, is you find yourself driving with some fear factor in the more powerful cars. Today's Caterham is a case in point. My first three laps on the Top Gear test track were approached as you would in Forza 4, no real threat, so you throw it about like a lunatic and catch it when it gets lairy. By the fourth lap, I'd started to get in touch with it, treating the throttle carefully with any amount of steering angle applied before putting your foot down once straightened up.

I like this, it ties in even closer to what you read and hear about these featherlight cars. I now feel I'm getting the car and its traits, not simply exploiting it in an approximation of how it behaves. It's just so gratifying driving in this game.

 

[thechosenwonton]

I do not find this to be the case in Forza. I can definitely get better grip when not holding the stick 100%. Sometimes when the car is settled in a corner I can push the stick all the way but only on certain corners under specific conditions. In most conditions I'm seasawing the stick to find that peak angle of slip.

I'm sure there's a bit of that, but if you try holding the stick full over on GT5/6, it garners noticeable understeer when you do this, and the front will just start to plow. It definitely does not plow in FM5, even if @ 10/10's you might be a tiny bit faster with more precise movements. With a wheel on both games, you can feel when you've turned the wheel to far and lose grip, but its certainly more noticeable in FM5. I also suspect a bit of stability control with the joystick in FM5, as it seems a bit too easy to get a car into a perfect drift, where with the wheel I am having to use a lot more throttle control.

Again, I understand the decision Turn10 made - to make it accessible to driving fans who either don't have the the space, or want to bother with setting up a wheel, and allow them to be competitive, but concessions have certainly been made to the controller user; it's very, very obvious when switching from a wheel to gamepad and vice versa.

 

[thechosenwonton]

No need for video then, you can post your lap time or any opinion about the physics on both cars.

I replied to the others in this post but this is specifically about the stock 458 @ Bathurst.

Twitchy would be a good word for it. When the tires were warm, much better, but the amazing turnin' took a bit getting used to and not get oversteer (excessively). I have ran this a few times but the first from from a dead stop at the line with a bone stock car (you can still tune the diff on a stock car, ya'll), was high 1:56's.

From a physics standpoint twitchy was bad at first, but then realized (driving on the TX wheel) that it is actually doing what I tell it to do - lift off mildly and it will pivot in, gas on and it will will slide out. Stock brakes are great too.

In GT6, the 458 seems very, very fast, and almost too competent (why I love in in gt5 online), but a pleasure to drive. I have no vs physics debates on it because it still seems like gt6 is missing out on major issues with tire modeling and more importantly weight transfer, but I at this point do believe its a limitation of the ps3 hardware.

Thankfully, the new platform is supposed to be much easier to develop on, so I am hoping gt7 will be better (or whatever they call it); drop the oil changes, it just adds tedium, and the same with washing the car. I'm a billionaire apparently in the game, I gotta be bothered with changing the oil? And make the physics better. I'm telling you if you switch from the CSR-E on GT6 over to FM5 with the TX is is immediately noticeable where that difference is; it might be a tad bit easier to drive GT5/6 at the limit but not as rewarding.

The argument to that would be "well forza is all slidy" - No, if you drive it correctly, its not all slidey. If you try to drive it deep in every corner in every car and not be sympathetic to it, your going to feel that.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I replied to the others in this post but this is specifically about the stock 458 @ Bathurst.

Twitchy would be a good word for it. When the tires were warm, much better, but the amazing turnin' took a bit getting used to and not get oversteer (excessively). I have ran this a few times but the first from from a dead stop at the line with a bone stock car (you can still tune the diff on a stock car, ya'll), was high 1:56's.

From a physics standpoint twitchy was bad at first, but then realized (driving on the TX wheel) that it is actually doing what I tell it to do - lift off mildly and it will pivot in, gas on and it will will slide out. Stock brakes are great too.

In GT6, the 458 seems very, very fast, and almost too competent (why I love in in gt5 online), but a pleasure to drive. I have no vs physics debates on it because it still seems like gt6 is missing out on major issues with tire modeling and more importantly weight transfer, but I at this point do believe its a limitation of the ps3 hardware.

Thankfully, the new platform is supposed to be much easier to develop on, so I am hoping gt7 will be better (or whatever they call it); drop the oil changes, it just adds tedium, and the same with washing the car. I'm a billionaire apparently in the game, I gotta be bothered with changing the oil? And make the physics better. I'm telling you if you switch from the CSR-E on GT6 over to FM5 with the TX is is immediately noticeable where that difference is; it might be a tad bit easier to drive GT5/6 at the limit but not as rewarding.

The argument to that would be "well forza is all slidy" - No, if you drive it correctly, its not all slidey. If you try to drive it deep in every corner in every car and not be sympathetic to it, your going to feel that.

Thanks for the review on both 458 The time 1:56, are you sure this is correct ? Seems to be very quick for a non race car, in GT6 with comfort soft ( closest to factory street tire ), no aids, stock 458, no oil change 563 HP, I did around 2:20s with some slow corner.

 

[jimipitbull]

I replied to the others in this post but this is specifically about the stock 458 @ Bathurst.

Twitchy would be a good word for it. When the tires were warm, much better, but the amazing turnin' took a bit getting used to and not get oversteer (excessively). I have ran this a few times but the first from from a dead stop at the line with a bone stock car (you can still tune the diff on a stock car, ya'll), was high 1:56's.

.

8 seconds faster than the 458 GT3 runs in real life?

Something must be wrong

 

[thechosenwonton]

Thanks for the review on both 458 The time 1:56, are you sure this is correct ? Seems to be very quick for a non race car, in GT6 with comfort soft ( closest to factory street tire ), no aids, stock 458, no oil change 563 HP, I did around 2:20s with some slow corner.

There is no oil change in FM5. So you are comparing apples and oranges. This is just FM5. I thought I did well; but honestly if you look at the start its only a few seconds you gain from flying and a dead stop; tire heat would be the real benefit.