FRL (Furi's Race Leagues): Phase #1 On PS3 2011-2015... Phase 2 Incoming...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Furinkazen
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snowgt
What @Yeratel84 and @Akmuq said. The car picking process is long overdue for a fairer approach and I actually wrote this to Furi as an answer to the survey he did on Dec 1 of last year. I agree that the picking order should be largely based on previous season's merits. I would have nothing against @Furinkazen getting a wild card higher up in such a "draft". It's his series, and to tell the truth, I would also not be happy, if I couldn't drive the car I wanted in my own series. Then again, it might be an incentive to make the cars all balanced. :sly:
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Following my first suggestion, Furi would always get a top pick through a teammate, in this case through Nin (who still falls under RPM banner)...

It's good Furi always get a faster driver as a teammate :p

snowgt
So I'd say, implement such a draft (publishing the draft order before, so it's transparent), with everyone submitting up to 3 car choices (in case the 1st or 2nd selection is already taken) at a pre-determined date after sufficient testing. (I'd say about 2 weeks before the first race would be appropriate - gives people enough time to familiarize themselves with their cars, even if they don't get their first choice)[/USER]
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I mentioned something related to this to Furi last week in lobby, that he should release T12 specs almost immediately after end of T11, so people have as much available time as possible to test all the cars and avoid that situation where someone test in only 1 or 2 tracks, where the car excels and then spend almost all the season complaining about their car and BoP... then implement a deadline maybe 1 week prior to first race for car selection. The difference to your suggestion is that people would get to familiarize with the cars before selection deadline, not after, so that they can make an informed decision when picking their cars


Furinkazen
@Yeratel84 as well, come up with a compromise that fixes all of this somewhat for the T12 season :)
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I'll work on that during this week...
 
Yeratel84
I mentioned something related to this to Furi last week in lobby, that he should release T12 specs almost immediately after end of T11, so people have as much available time as possible to test all the cars and avoid that situation where someone test in only 1 or 2 tracks, where the car excels and then spend almost all the season complaining about their car and BoP... then implement a deadline maybe 1 week prior to first race for car selection. The difference to your suggestion is that people would get to familiarize with the cars before selection deadline, not after, so that they can make an informed decision when picking their cars.
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Completely agree. That's why I wrote "after sufficient testing". That was to mean "after publishing specs and before car-selection", not the private BoP-testing behind the curtains. 👍 This public testing phase should also be at least 2 weeks long, in my opinion (the longer, the better). Actually, it should probably be more like 3-4 weeks, to allow for BoP-tweaking in case of inconsistencies.

1 week prior to first race is pretty close, but manageable. You don't have much time to readjust to maybe your 2nd or 3rd most liked car, but it would maybe allow more sign-ups into the selection process.
 
snowgt
Completely agree. That's why I wrote "after sufficient testing". That was to mean "after publishing specs and before car-selection", not the private BoP-testing behind the curtains. 👍 This public testing phase should also be at least 2 weeks long, in my opinion (the longer, the better). Actually, it should probably be more like 3-4 weeks, to allow for BoP-tweaking in case of inconsistencies.

1 week prior to first race is pretty close, but manageable. You don't have much time to readjust to maybe your 2nd or 3rd most liked car, but it would maybe allow more sign-ups into the selection process.
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Deffo won't be a week before first race.
 
I'm just going to say one thing.

Champion picks first? Basically giving the champion the best shot possible to win again... Hmm... Fair system
 
Pluxtheduck
I'm just going to say one thing.

Champion picks first? Basically giving the champion the best shot possible to win again... Hmm... Fair system
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Compared to what? Picking last? Now that's an incentive for someone staying past their winning season...

Also I don't see rewarding someone for both their effort and achievement as an unfair system...
 
Yeratel84
Compared to what? Picking last? Now that's an incentive for someone staying past their winning season...

Also I don't see rewarding someone for both their effort and achievement as an unfair system...
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No picking using a better system then either. Yes, a more complicated system but a fairer one
 
How about we go back to how it was when I first started ToCA? There are only 7 cars, and the number of each depends on how many people take it. For example, let's pretend the Trollvo is one car and the Scirocco is another. One team chooses the Trollvo, taking 2 cars, and 2 independents are allowed to use it. However, since the Scirocco is OP fast, RPM and satellite team takes 4 of them. In this case, one more Scirocco would be open for an independent to use.

Another option would be to ban satellite teams and make it 2 team cars and 2 independent cars per vehicle.

Draft order could be something like this:

1. Previous season's driver's champion (and their teammate for the next season by extension)
2. Previous season's team champion (and their teammate)
3. Furi (like Snow said, it's fair that the series organizer gets to run whatever they want in their own series. There's good odds that RPM would be covered by one of the first two slots, but it doesn't hurt to have a backup plan.)
4. Previous season's independent champion (and their teammate if they choose to have one)
5. Any other drivers who ran all or almost all races the previous season (championship order perhaps?)
6. Everyone else, following limits.
 
snowgt
Completely agree. That's why I wrote "after sufficient testing". That was to mean "after publishing specs and before car-selection", not the private BoP-testing behind the curtains. 👍 This public testing phase should also be at least 2 weeks long, in my opinion (the longer, the better). Actually, it should probably be more like 3-4 weeks, to allow for BoP-tweaking in case of inconsistencies.

1 week prior to first race is pretty close, but manageable. You don't have much time to readjust to maybe your 2nd or 3rd most liked car, but it would maybe allow more sign-ups into the selection process.
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And after all that pd will do an
Update the day before the first race just to spit you :lol:

raceorama123432
ToCATube could make a return in ToCA12... (I now have a capture card)

@Holdenhsvgtsr I'm sure could also do some filming :)
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LancerEvo7
How about we go back to how it was when I first started ToCA? There are only 7 cars, and the number of each depends on how many people take it. For example, let's pretend the Trollvo is one car and the Scirocco is another. One team chooses the Trollvo, taking 2 cars, and 2 independents are allowed to use it. However, since the Scirocco is OP fast, RPM and satellite team takes 4 of them. In this case, one more Scirocco would be open for an independent to use.

Another option would be to ban satellite teams and make it 2 team cars and 2 independent cars per vehicle.

Draft order could be something like this:

1. Previous season's driver's champion (and their teammate for the next season by extension)
2. Previous season's team champion (and their teammate)
3. Furi (like Snow said, it's fair that the series organizer gets to run whatever they want in their own series. There's good odds that RPM would be covered by one of the first two slots, but it doesn't hurt to have a backup plan.)
4. Previous season's independent champion (and their teammate if they choose to have one)
5. Any other drivers who ran all or almost all races the previous season (championship order perhaps?)
6. Everyone else, following limits.
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If I win then that would mess things up for everyone else as for the last 2 sessions I've picked my car 2 days before the first race.
 
Planned changes:

~Teams will no longer be permitted a 2nd B team.

~Teams will be allowed to run 3 cars, but like present only 2 (highest scorers in this case) will score team points.

~The whole (independent/team) thing is allowed but as such, say I want to link up with for example Yera in a 4th Independent entry, I cannot say "i'm reserving a 4th car" as all I can do is book my teams 3.

~Also if you post a competitive time in Q1 but do not qualify, you will receive points (probably 1 or 2)
 
Furinkazen
Planned changes:

~Teams will no longer be permitted a 2nd B team.

~Teams will be allowed to run 3 cars, but like present only 2 (highest scorers in this case) will score team points.

~The whole (independent/team) thing is allowed but as such, say I want to link up with for example Yera in a 4th Independent entry, I cannot say "i'm reserving a 4th car" as all I can do is book my teams 3.

~Also if you post a competitive time in Q1 but do not qualify, you will receive points (probably 1 or 2)
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Getting rid of second team -> good.

Can you define what "the whole (independent/team) thing" actually is? I.e. what's its purpose?

If you have three cars of the same type running for your team, it's an unfair advantage even if only the two highest scorers count. You shouldn't be able to do that. You should have to have 2 main drivers who (usually) count for points, unless one of them can't make an event.

If it is to have just someone else around to substitute in case one of the main drivers cannot attend a race-meeting, that's fine. You can recruit a spare driver from the pool of independents and let them have a drive in the vacated car for those races that your main driver can't take part. (The substitute's points would not count for the Independent Championship though). But you shouldn't be able to reserve an additional car of the same type for this just because you're running that car as a team, unless the car's driver was able to select that car on account of their own position in the draft. Then he will be able to drive that car in the Indy Championship throughout the year.

I have no idea why you would be awarding points to drivers that don't even qualify. Someone actually qualifying (and then e.g. disconnecting) could end up with less points than someone who didn't make it into the event. If you want to have some means to rank those players never to make it into an event, you could have a separate points table for Q1's though (not counting for the championship).
 
snowgt
Getting rid of second team -> good.

Can you define what "the whole (independent/team) thing" actually is? I.e. what's its purpose?
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What we did with Yeratel when me and Smuffy were RPM in the Golfs, and Yera was essentially a satellite team. Heck i've run a satellite team ever since ToCA7.

snowgt
If you have three cars of the same type running for your team, it's an unfair advantage even if only the two highest scorers count. You shouldn't be able to do that. You should have to have 2 main drivers who (usually) count for points, unless one of them can't make an event.
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I was merely thinking this would make teams more competitive and like I said, only two would count as scorers. So if it was in 1 race:

1st SYM
2nd RPM
3rd RPM
4th SYM
5th RPM
6th SYM

Then SYM pts would come from the 1st / 4th place drivers and RPM from the 2nd 3rd. Considering how we've run in effect 3/4 cars the last two seasons (same for Humberside) this is actually better as we're not numerically overwhelming everyone.

snowgt
If it is to have just someone else around to substitute in case one of the main drivers cannot attend a race-meeting, that's fine. You can recruit a spare driver from the pool of independents and let them have a drive in the vacated car for those races that your main driver can't take part. (The substitute's points would not count for the Independent Championship though). But you shouldn't be able to reserve an additional car of the same type for this just because you're running that car as a team, unless the car's driver was able to select that car on account of their own position in the draft. Then he will be able to drive that car in the Indy Championship throughout the year.
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Let's face it, Who has actually had 4 cars out every race this season? Humberside have had 2 most of time, we had 3 just about when 4 were planned.

snowgt
I have no idea why you would be awarding points to drivers that don't even qualify. Someone actually qualifying (and then e.g. disconnecting) could end up with less points than someone who didn't make it into the event. If you want to have some means to rank those players never to make it into an event, you could have a separate points table for Q1's though (not counting for the championship).
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Is offering someone 1 point for at least trying and attempting to make a race really that big an issue? Rewards them with something.
 
Furinkazen
Is offering someone 1 point for at least trying and attempting to make a race really that big an issue? Rewards them with something.
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I approve of this idea so much. I give half last place points to anyone who so much as attempts to show up during the race.
 
So many more Renaults could have turned up since Scania took all 4 straight away.

Then for most of the season only 2 Renault's raced.

3 at Willow and Nurb, 1 at Spa and none at Silverstone.
 
Ninners
So many more Renaults could have turned up since Scania took all 4 straight away.

Then for most of the season only 2 Renault's raced.

3 at Willow and Nurb, 1 at Spa and none at Silverstone.
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Yeah, 3 cars max per team (no-one says you can't run 2 either or add a 3rd car late on) also free's up 1/2 more for Independent runners to use.
 
I'm just wondering if something like tc1 and tc2 be considered.

Tc1 for manufacturers using for example t12 spec cars

Tc2 for independents running the previous years cars t11 spec

Will keep issues such as independents not ruining overall champion results and teams not ruining independent results.
 
Holdenhsvgtsr
I'm just wondering if something like tc1 and tc2 be considered.

Tc1 for manufacturers using for example t12 spec cars

Tc2 for independents running the previous years cars t11 spec

Will keep issues such as independents not ruining overall champion results and teams not ruining independent results.
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Was considered but what if we have 8 teams? Thats 16 cars under the old system already around 2 seconds per lap off pace.
 
Furinkazen
What we did with Yeratel when me and Smuffy were RPM in the Golfs, and Yera was essentially a satellite team. Heck i've run a satellite team ever since ToCA7.



I was merely thinking this would make teams more competitive and like I said, only two would count as scorers. So if it was in 1 race:

1st SYM
2nd RPM
3rd RPM
4th SYM
5th RPM
6th SYM

Then SYM pts would come from the 1st / 4th place drivers and RPM from the 2nd 3rd. Considering how we've run in effect 3/4 cars the last two seasons (same for Humberside) this is actually better as we're not numerically overwhelming everyone.



Let's face it, Who has actually had 4 cars out every race this season? Humberside have had 2 most of time, we had 3 just about when 4 were planned.



Is offering someone 1 point for at least trying and attempting to make a race really that big an issue? Rewards them with something.
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I don't get your point. You're comparing 2 teams with 3 drivers each.

It's pretty simple ... for simplicity let's compare the results of 2 teams, Team A (2 drivers) and Team B (3 drivers). Let's assume these 5 drivers are all equal in terms of performance and each of them finishes in positions 1-5 exactly once in those 5 races. Then they would be all tied in the drivers standings. However, in the team's championship, the score would be something like...

Team B (3 drivers): 169 points
Team A (2 drivers): 154 points

How is that fair exactly, given that all drivers showed the same performance? (unless all teams have the same amount of drivers)

I mean, sure, it does make the 3-car team more competitive. :lol:

The point is, you can have a 3-car team. You just have to nominate before the race which 2 will count for the team championship and then live with it, if one of the two has a bad race, like every other team.
 
I do see where you are coming from.
 
Furinkazen
I do see where you are coming from.
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I remember a similar system being used a few years ago in WRC... with teams having to designate prior to each rally which 2 drivers out of 3 would score points for the Manufacturers championship (regardless of final positions for said drivers)
 
Yeratel84
I remember a similar system being used a few years ago in WRC... with teams having to designate prior to each rally which 2 drivers out of 3 would score points for the Manufacturers championship (regardless of final positions for said drivers)
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Yes, I never really understood the point of that. Rendered the 3rd car useless imo.
 
Yeah, plus whoever's in the third car won't race because they'll want to give their teammates the most spots.
 
LancerEvo7
Yeah, plus whoever's in the third car won't race because they'll want to give their teammates the most spots.
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One driver in effect in ToCA would become a roadblock, if he isn't scoring points than he literally has no purpose.

Plus I envisage the arguments post Brands if that happened "I lost the title being taken off by someone who wasn't even racing for points".
 
Furinkazen
One driver in effect in ToCA would become a roadblock, if he isn't scoring points than he literally has no purpose.
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As you've figured out from 11 seasons of experience. :sly:
 
Furinkazen
One driver in effect in ToCA would become a roadblock, if he isn't scoring points than he literally has no purpose.

Plus I envisage the arguments post Brands if that happened "I lost the title being taken off by someone who wasn't even racing for points".
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Which is exactly why there should only be 2-car teams. (You can also make teams generally consist of 3 cars, but that would prevent variety as you couldn't even fit one team of each brand into the field)
 
Yeratel84
I remember a similar system being used a few years ago in WRC... with teams having to designate prior to each rally which 2 drivers out of 3 would score points for the Manufacturers championship (regardless of final positions for said drivers)
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It's been like that in every motorsport series I can remember. Otherwise every team would turn up with as many cars as possible so long as they can afford it.

Edit: One addition. I remember in DTM there used to be a practice of entering additional guest starters in the last race in order to execute some team strategy. They wouldn't count for team points, but made life harder for the other brands. They also abolished that, because it was unfair.
 
snowgt
Which is exactly why there should only be 2-car teams. (You can also make teams generally consist of 3 cars, but that would prevent variety as you couldn't even fit one team of each brand into the field)
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I think we'll stick with the two for now 👍
 
2 car teams.

Teams can run 1 satellite independent entry too.

Effectively 3 cars.

Seems ok for me.
 
Ninners
2 car teams.

Teams can run 1 satellite independent entry too.

Effectively 3 cars.

Seems ok for me.
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Explain to me what the point of this is. The independent is not really independent, if he is in some way affiliated with a team and the team can't use the independent (or it's unfair to 2-car teams). All it does is hog another one of the same car type and make the impression that they would act under team orders, if necessary, which, again, is not exactly fair.

An independent can still fill in as a substitute for a team, even changing the car for those races. They don't need to be the third car in a 2-car team.
 
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