Fuji, Japanese Grand Prix 2007

[darkfinal]

For being happy that one of his drivers has just crashed out of the race in a pretty nasty looking crash? Hell yes!

For favouring one of his drivers? When that particular driver has been praised over a double world champion, who has been practically ignored and whose information he has been using? Give it a good guess.

Wow, I'm glad someone stepped out of the fanboyism and took this from an objective point of view.

About Alonso's crash, the broken aero part (I'd call those 'gills', but they look different) was apparently making him loose traction on his rear-right wheel. Adding a bit of aquaplanning... Voilà.

Oh, and like I said a couple weeks ago, Hamilton must be the luckiest F1 driver in history. Not only he debuts with the best car in the grid (If you consider McLaren+Ferrari bits the best! ), gets most of the data and setups from a world champion and has all the team emotionally wanting him to win, but he's done a few stupid moves this season without crashing (or when he did, he could go back to race, either by his own or a properly placed crane). Oh, and why did Sutil get punished? Hamilton was right in front of him and Webber, doing an apparently illegal move (Isn't it illegal to brake suddenly behind the SC to stop the cars behind the leader?). I'm not blaming anyone for this, but wow... I could totally see Hamilton's dad calling the FIA if Alonso was leading the race, and that happened to his teammate instead, with the British media drawing out their heaviest weapons.

But well, one can't be lucky forever. Good for Hamilton, he's a great driver, but that was one hell of a lucky strike for him.

 

[G.T]

Interesting race! Hamilton draws ever closer to the win...

I agree with your statement fully, Roo. As the commentators were saying it was like Dijon all over again. Its good to see 2 drivers give their all and more for an extra point or two.
If F1 was more like that...If only...


proper racing

And that made it even more interesting! I've never seen aggressive driving like that in F1 before.

 

[<_Spike_>]

If you knew a bit about things the world would be free of comments like this. There was nothing to be known, there is not such a rule that prevents starting into a full wet race with intermediate tyres. The judges apologized that for Ferrari after the race but it was a bit late at that point. Surprise surprise, Hamilton cruised unopposed into a free victory thanks to this small mistake...

You have quite some nerve to talk about bending the rules while flying the McLaren flag. To my understanding trying to bend, not even fully break, the rules (always as you say, to me once in a season isn't always), getting caught and being stopped in time is OK. Breaking the rules, getting caught and still winning the World Championship is not. 👎

Hey all I can go by is what was said on tv, so when they say "Race Director Charlie Whitehead (sp?) went down and personally told the teams 20 minutes before the race", you kinda assume that they knew.

And don't give me that crap in the second passage btw. Ferrari have ALWAYS tried to bend and break the rules to suite them with the whole team knowing what's going on. Side note, I've nothing to do with McLaren beyond "supporter", so I still have the right to say what I want about other teams. Kthxgbye


As for Massa and Kubica in the last 4 or 5 corners...more like that please!

 

[CAMikaze]

Pouring rain again...maybe they should go race their yachts...

That has me wondering what the average speeed for the Grand Prix was, in Knots!

And a shout out to the infinitely patient Japanese fans. I'd have left hours ago.

Edit: And that's probably the best-looking trophy I've seen all season, too.

My kudos go out to the fans there as well. I imagine they all came fully prepared for the weather. At least they got the race completed in one day unlike what happened back in August where the NHRA races in my neck of the woods and the NASCAR race out in Michigan didn't get completed until mid-week! Speaking of which, that had me wondering if there was at the time a typhoon going through some distance away from Fuji or was it one of those heavy rain weather systems?

As for the trophy, I agree on how good it looks. I'm guessing they've been giving out the trophy in this style for the years Fuji Television has had their name on as the Race Sponsor.

Note: Liuzzi has had 25 seconds added to his final time for passing under yellows. Sorry to say Danny, but this gives Sutil the 8th place, Spyker's first point of the season. Story.

Oh crap! Why does STR seems to have the bad luck? First was poor Vettel clobering Mark Webber's Red Bull and now this? Wow, I can't remember how bad a team that is actually this unlucky. Even the Minardi's get to score a point somehow......

Oh and Vettel has a 10 place grid penalty for China thanks to the collision with Webber. Story.

Maybe someone snuck in and let a litter of black cats loose at the STR facilities one dark and stormy night?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Ferrari have ALWAYS tried to bend and break the rules to suite them with the whole team knowing what's going on.

I find it's a bit rich of Ferrari to jump up and down over the spy row and then go ahead and ignore a direct roder to run wet tyres. Sure, the spy row is much more serious by a whole order of magnitude, but what is good for the goose should be good for the gander. It's incidents like this that make me wonder about the whole appeal thing; Ferrari did nothing when Toyota had their stuff, but they managed to get the FIA to do have a full appeal of their initial decision when it was McLaren. The difference? McLaren were a genuine title contender; Toyota weren't. I might be sounding like a broken record here, but for Ferrari to cry foul over one rule and then go and break another is just unacceptable. If I were the FIA and it were proven that Ferrari knew about the tyre rule, I'd go ahead and penalise them.

 

[JohnBM01]

My congratulations to Lewis Hamilton on his win. I know I said this isn't his year, but he's really proving me wrong. I'm still not going to drop my "not this year" comments. He's still a great racer. He can get it done without any Tony Stewart ranting or anything. I NEVER said I hated Hamilton or overrated him.

There was a LOT of rain (understatement) for this race. I joked a few reasons why there is rain at Fuji for this race: (1) Mother Nature's way of punishing Herman Tilke for screwing up the classic Fuji layout, (2) Mother Nature punishing (somebody) for moving the Japanese Grand Prix from Suzuka to this screwed-up and dumbed-down Fuji circuit, (3) rain falling from the skies to pay homage to Fuji back when it was the high-speed thrill ride we come to love until the 2005 changes to the track. Think of this more like tears falling as they will greatly miss the classic Fuji circuit. No matter what serious or funny reason you have, there's still a race that takes place. It was with its fair share of spins, slides, and all that. Just for fun, some of the cars performed some nice drifts as they were sliding out. I don't think you'll be seeing F1 cars compete alongside the D1GP anytime soon.

Before I get to my discussion/debate question, it's time to make a long rant.

John Sounds Off! - One More Time... Fuji Now Compared to Fuji Then
I dislike what was taken away from the old circuit as racing transpired on the new Fuji track. It's rare you'll see me talk about character because I don't believe in being a hard-ass or have some kind of opinion bound to tick people off. But if I never paid any serious attention to character in posts... this Sound Off is a change. I hated what was done to Hockenheim. It was a completely fun high-speed race course. I called it a German Le Mans because of the long straights broken up by some slow chicanes. What's Hockenheim now? Just another average European circuit. Still fast, probably safer... just not as fun anymore. I never knew the 1970s Spa-Francorchamps circuit to appreciate it more than I love the current Spa-Francorchamps. Perhaps the changes of Suzuka made it more challenging, especially with the dreaded Casio Triangle.

But look at Fuji. I always thought of Fuji as a high-speed thrill ride. It isn't like cars go extremely fast through some of the sweeping corners. But the changes made to the classic high-speed nature of Fuji has been dumbed down and actually not really fun anymore. At one point, you'll have to realize (and I'm talking to others looking to mess up perfectly-fine and technical race tracks) that you need to have your "character" race tracks to challenge and put racers on the limit. One can only be a great racer by taking on the challenges of track that puts you to the limit and isn't dumbed down. On a positive note, the new Fuji has beautiful facilities. I'll gladly take the extra runoff road in case I lose it in the corners and on the straights. The second half as well as the first real sweeping section are nowhere as fun compared to the old Fuji layout. The new Fuji has modifications in how the corners are laid out as the high-speed fun is pretty much gone. I thought it was fun to have that long sweeping right section that leads to a critical chicane. The final corner used to be somewhat of an off-speed corner that led to the Start/Finish and a beautiful view of Mount Fuji. So what's the track looking like now? Herman Tilke KILLED the long sweeping right section and replaced it a section that just makes this another generic track. If anything, I'd add runoff road where available during the second sweeper and make the final corner as a decreasing radius turn. But what did Tilke do? He screwed up the complete second half of this track and added an out-of-nowhere chicane. The chicane of the former course is now this chicane that comes up so sudden that you can easily overshoot it. And passing is almost impossible at that section. There is now this extra section that makes the high-speed run into the final corner as something completely uninteresting and otherwise making you question why this new layout was arranged. Only thing that remains is the 0.9-mile front straight. At least this wasn't broken up by a temporary chicane or anything like that.

All in all, the Fuji of old is dead and gone, and it's sad. I'm sure there will need to be more done to keep the character of classic tracks intact while being safe on the same accord. Fuji is now basically Japan's Hockenheim in terms of classic tracks with classic layouts with a terrible newer layout. Even on a dry day, a race around this newly-modified track just isn't very interesting. I'm sure people who seen F1 race at Fuji in the 1970s as wondering what was lost in translation for this newer layout. Does it sound redundant that I'm ripping this layout constantly? Well, get used to it. The layout STYLE remains intact, but the fun of the old course is pretty much gone with this new layout. It's a terrible package in my view. Fuji could have used some of the lovely facilities, but the track layout should have been left alone. Again, I'd change up the outside of the long sweepers to have some extra runoff road in case of overshooting corners or going off the track at a critical time. The fact that Fuji would be the new venue for the G.P. of Japan doesn't concern me. The fact that Fuji was modified the way it is to the point where it isn't very fun anymore concerns me. There's probably been more history at Fuji than Suzuka, but the Suzuka Circuit is a rewarding race track that really tests you from Turn One all the way past the Casio Triangle. Drivers love it, I love it... why this travesty of a boring configuration to the classic Fuji is beyond me. Nonetheless, the Japanese love their racing love to watch Formula One about as much as they love the Super GT series (which I love). Japan has some tough race tracks. I just hope they don't get screwed up to an incredulous degree like Fuji did. Thing is... I never said I hated Fuji itself. Just didn't like the configuration.

-end "Sound Off"


John's Debate! - Alternating Grand Prix of Japan Venues
The Grand Prix of Japan will alternate between Suzuka and Fuji seems like. My question to you: rather than Suzuka and Fuji, what other Japanese race tracks do you think should alternate the Japanese Grand Prix? Or do you believe that only Suzuka should be raced for the GP of Japan? Or do you believe that some other Japanese course should host the Japanese Grand Prix?[/I] Here's a response to my debate question:

If it were up to me, if I were part of the FIA's F1 crew or a promoter or media representative trying to market F1 in Japan, I'd love to make Autopolis relevant. After this track planned to be the prospective home of the Japanese Grand Prix in 1993, it failed miserably. The story of this track's demise still stuns me. The course was destined to be a home of the Japanese Grand Prix in 1993 or so. The race never happened, and a lot of the race track has seen high weeds and boarded-up windows. I have Autopolis for rFactor, and let me tell you- this is one hell of a race track. This is a Grand Prix race track that would look great (in terms of configuration) with Formula One race cars. When Super GT raced at this track for the first time back in 2003, Michael Krumm noted that the track is like a Japanese Nürburgring with its layout. The layout rounds out to about three miles in length (2.904 miles/4,674 km to be exact). So the Japanese GP didn't happen at this track on Kyushu Island. Why not revitalize this place fully to make it the dream race track millions of fans will enjoy as well as a track the rich can lounge around at watching racing happen there. Suzuka is a rewarding track. So is Autopolis.

What do you all think? Feel free to make your comments as we're heading towards the Chinese Grand Prix at the weird Shanghai Circuit.

 

[Fonce Diablo]

Hey CAM...I actually said the things you quoted to Omnis... XD

China next week, huh? Yeah, this should be good...hope it rains there too.

I have to get used to using 'points' and 'Spyker' in the same sentence.

 

[<_Spike_>]

Me too, another wet race for the brits. Heck if it weren't for the collision with Heidfeld, we'd probably have had 3 brits in the top 6..quite something compared to usual events

 

[Muzaffar]

Well for one thing, I totally agree with you JohnBM01. I mean they did ruin the Fuji curcuit for all the right reason. Those fast sweeping corners had to be taken of for safety. I mean if they had a crash at one of those sweeping corners (at speeds up to 200kp/h) would it be great? Sure you think that the current F1 car is safe (an example was Kubica's crash at Montreal) but just think of th fans. The safety barrier is not that big and those debris could fly up and hit any of the spectators. There was one race back in 1977 where 2 spectators were killed by flying debris. But to be honest, they could improve safety without demolishing those old corners..... just look at Monza. Safety has improved a lot but they didn't destroy the Parabolica and still managed to keep those oval banks.

Well as for Autopolis, same as you I totally love the circuit layout. But too bad they went into financial problems before they could even host a grand prix.... (the project cost 47 billion yen, so i doubt that they didn't have enough money to pay for it. Designed by Yo****oshi Sakurai (oh why can't i pronounce his name!!!! ), who needs Hermann Tilke! There is also an interesting fact, Michael Schumacher did raced here during the World Sportscar Championship in 1991) but how the track became unpopular was obvious. Just like Magny Cours, the circuit is located far away from the city which means that its very difficult for the spectators to stay there. Well there some weird info about why the circuit got unnoticed. Here is the link:
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cir-054.html

Well thats my 2 cent for now, hope you could understand.
p.s. I +rep your post. Its good to read stuff from you.

 

[Alex.]

danny, I'm afraid your avatar is actualy laser'ing Winkelhock

 

[<_Spike_>]

STR to appeal Liuzzi penalty.

Toro Rosso have confirmed they will appeal Vitantonio Liuzzi's penalty for overtaking Spyker's Adrian Sutil under a yellow flag during the Japanese Grand Prix.

After stewards added on 25 seconds to Liuzzi's race time as punishment, the Italian was demoted from eighth to ninth behind Sutil.

Toro Rosso had been celebrating their first point of the season prior to the penalty.

However, as things currently stand, it is Spyker who are in that position.

 

[Danny]

danny, I'm afraid your avatar is actualy laser'ing Winkelhock

My point is more Spyker as a whole.

STR to appeal Liuzzi penalty.

👍

Better.

 

[Alex.]

Will they succeed though?

I have a feeling they wont.

 

[Blake]

Great race. Congratulations to Lewis for all-but securing the WDC in his rookie year (and in the most difficult conditions for any Grand Prix driver). That is amazing and I look forward to him winning many more for McLaren. He has a hugely promising career ahead of him and it will be great to see it unfold. 👍

For the life of me I don't know how Massa's finishing position has been allowed to stand. He's been playing Gran Turismo again - that's how most GTers take the last uphill section...

That was an awesome battle. One of the best duels for many years! I was actually worried that the result would be taken away which would be the final knife from Politics into Sport&#8217;s back. I&#8217;m very glad no issue was made, as it was a fantastic scrap with two great drivers giving it their all over a single point. That is racing.

Should have been cancelled or postponed. It's fine to say it was a good race now (the last lap in particular was a real highlight), but with the standing water you could have easily had a random big crash.

Standing water? They were only 7 seconds off dry times&#8230; I think the water was not a danger, the only danger was the fog and spray. I think it&#8217;s incredible that there were not more accidents due to a lack of visibility.

On that note, I feel very sorry for Vettel and after that accident he actually jumped ahead of Button in my F1 Drivers Most Likely to be Found Hanging From the Rafters list.

Webber is for sure a contender for unluckiest driver in the history of motorsport. A few years ago I was confident he would get a few wins under his belt, but now I&#8217;m wondering if he&#8217;ll ever get the chance. He&#8217;s beating Coulthard week-in and week-out, but I wonder if anyone is noticing it.

danny, I'm afraid your avatar is actualy laser'ing Winkelhock

 

[DQuaN]

The drivers did say that they were aquaplaning all over the track. Especially on the main straight.

 

[Blake]

The drivers did say that they were aquaplaning all over the track. Especially on the main straight.

Of course, but aquaplaning is always going to happen when you race in the wet and they’ve all raced on considerably wetter tracks since they were 5 years old.

I still think visibility was far more dangerous than the water.

 

[Metar]

Hey all I can go by is what was said on tv, so when they say "Race Director Charlie Whitehead (sp?) went down and personally told the teams 20 minutes before the race", you kinda assume that they knew.

They bent the rules trying to get lucky should the race turn out drier. They didn't profit. But I still believe they should've been punished.

There is such a thing as mass e-mails. I'm very very certain that the FIA doesn't re-formulate the letter to each and every team, but rather send the same message to all, at once.

And Ferrari are sponsored by an ISP! If it was Spyker, I'd understand having a budget too small for dialup. But Ferrari?

About Alonso's crash, the broken aero part (I'd call those 'gills', but they look different) was apparently making him loose traction on his rear-right wheel. Adding a bit of aquaplanning... Voilà.

Take a close-up look at Alonso's right-rear side (the damaged area). You'll see two things badly damaged.

One, part of the aerodynamic system around the wheel, diverting air above the wheel and onto the spoiler. That part would've slowed him down, and lose some downforce, but were nothing dangerous.

Second part is the important bit. Part of his undertray was broken - a very significant bit located just in front of the rear wheel. It was very loose after the crash - it flapped and moved, scraping the asphalt. If that piece broke completely loose and dropped on the floor, it'd land directly in front of the wheel. And while braking into a corner, the last thing you want is a wheel on a surfboard like that.


Notice, also, how he crashed into the outside of a corner while braking into it - kinda like Raikkonen's Monza crash. That doesn't look like something avoidable at all.

The drivers did say that they were aquaplaning all over the track. Especially on the main straight.

Of course, but aquaplaning is always going to happen when you race in the wet and they’ve all raced on considerably wetter tracks since they were 5 years old.

I still think visibility was far more dangerous than the water.

Actually, worst thing possible is a variation of aquaplaning. Christian Donner explained it on RTL TV - "Surfing". He told it like this:

F1 drivers are highly skilled drivers - and a track offering less traction isn't a problem. Other drivers and ex-drivers agreed - aquaplaning isn't much of a problem, since you can adjust your driving-style to it. Even the Nurburgring slide-offs were mostly avoidable, if it wasn't for another thing, which doesn't exist in most racecars: "Surfing". An F1 car drives very low above the ground - and when it's wet, tyre-pressure drops and the car gets even lower, but that's the time when it needs more height. Why that?

Because an F1 car is so low, in wet conditions, at times, the car doesn't just aquaplane at the wheels - but rather aquaplanes over the underbody. The result is a car which doesn't even pressure the wheels that much - and becomes completely uncontrollable. That's another reason why Wet tyres are always a little bigger - to add even more height to the car. Intermediates, however, aren't bigger (same size), and as such, this effect happens mostly on Inters (See 2007 Nurburgring for an hilarious example).

This time, because the rain was anticipated, teams already ran the necessary height, proper wings and tyres - and as a result, while grip was little, they could still race very very safely, with visibility, as Blake said, being the only real hazard left.

 

[daan]

For the life of me I don't know how Massa's finishing position has been allowed to stand. He's been playing Gran Turismo again - that's how most GTers take the last uphill section...

It was 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Kubica went off track to regain his position too. To quote Mario Andretti after the Villeneuve/Arnoux Dijon battle, "It was just 2 young lions clawing at one another"

Should have been cancelled or postponed. It's fine to say it was a good race now (the last lap in particular was a real highlight), but with the standing water you could have easily had a random big crash.

As has been pointed out, the cars were ready for rain, and standing water didn't seem to be a problem. The lack of visibilty was the major problem.

And with regard to the Ferrari/not getting email thing, intermediates were completely the wrong tyre to be on anyway. It was far to wet for them.

And, Spike, Charlie Whiting.

Webber is for sure a contender for unluckiest driver in the history of motorsport.

And that was completely my fault. I had a Murray Walker moment...

 

[Roo]

Wow, I'm glad someone stepped out of the fanboyism and took this from an objective point of view.

About Alonso's crash, the broken aero part (I'd call those 'gills', but they look different) was apparently making him loose traction on his rear-right wheel. Adding a bit of aquaplanning... Voilà.

Oh, and like I said a couple weeks ago, Hamilton must be the luckiest F1 driver in history. Not only he debuts with the best car in the grid (If you consider McLaren+Ferrari bits the best! ), gets most of the data and setups from a world champion and has all the team emotionally wanting him to win, but he's done a few stupid moves this season without crashing (or when he did, he could go back to race, either by his own or a properly placed crane). Oh, and why did Sutil get punished? Hamilton was right in front of him and Webber, doing an apparently illegal move (Isn't it illegal to brake suddenly behind the SC to stop the cars behind the leader?). I'm not blaming anyone for this, but wow... I could totally see Hamilton's dad calling the FIA if Alonso was leading the race, and that happened to his teammate instead, with the British media drawing out their heaviest weapons.

But well, one can't be lucky forever. Good for Hamilton, he's a great driver, but that was one hell of a lucky strike for him.

Some drivers are lucky, some aren't. Michael Schumacher spent 14 years or so mixing damn good driving with being lucky. (The one year he wasn't lucky, of course, was the one he spent half of at home with 2 broken legs - 1999.) Poor old Mark Webber, on the other hand, is notoriously unlucky - taking a sledgehammer to a mirror shop might be slightly luckier.

Whilst it was good for Hamilton's championship, I'd rather Alonso hadn't ended up in the Turn 5 wall - a close, unpredictable championship is always better than a predictable one, regardless of who wins it.

That was McLaren's first DNF this season.

On the email thing - the rule was agreed by all the teams last year to only use email to replace the original written communication, so that all teams got the info simultaneously. Now it's been amended so that both email and written confirmation will be used from now on.

Actually, worst thing possible is a variation of aquaplaning. Christian Donner explained it on RTL TV - "Surfing". He told it like this:

F1 drivers are highly skilled drivers - and a track offering less traction isn't a problem. Other drivers and ex-drivers agreed - aquaplaning isn't much of a problem, since you can adjust your driving-style to it. Even the Nurburgring slide-offs were mostly avoidable, if it wasn't for another thing, which doesn't exist in most racecars: "Surfing". An F1 car drives very low above the ground - and when it's wet, tyre-pressure drops and the car gets even lower, but that's the time when it needs more height. Why that?

Because an F1 car is so low, in wet conditions, at times, the car doesn't just aquaplane at the wheels - but rather aquaplanes over the underbody. The result is a car which doesn't even pressure the wheels that much - and becomes completely uncontrollable. That's another reason why Wet tyres are always a little bigger - to add even more height to the car. Intermediates, however, aren't bigger (same size), and as such, this effect happens mostly on Inters (See 2007 Nurburgring for an hilarious example).

This time, because the rain was anticipated, teams already ran the necessary height, proper wings and tyres - and as a result, while grip was little, they could still race very very safely, with visibility, as Blake said, being the only real hazard left.

I learnt something today!

 

[JohnBM01]

I was just saying that I understand the safety aspect of the course. It just looks ridiculous now. Not as fun as the original. It's like taking a movie known for violent content and foul language... then dumbing it down so even kids... can enjoy it. Kind of like "Die Hard" without the explosions. Anyone else want to key in on my debate question?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I was just saying that I understand the safety aspect of the course. It just looks ridiculous now. Not as fun as the original. It's like taking a movie known for violent content and foul language... then dumbing it down so even kids... can enjoy it. Kind of like "Die Hard" without the explosions.

Except movies are make believe and F1 races are real life. That's a huge difference when it comes to making them "safe", but I also understand that many fans of racing are largely fans of the danger, and why they consider races with lots of crashes great races, while those without, not so much.

Personally, I'm in the middle, I like the adrenaline of seeing driver's on the edge of danger, but at the same time I enjoy as much if not more skillful driving, smart race strategies, and ingenious technical engineering often found in many forms of auto sports. 👍

 

[darkfinal]

Some drivers are lucky, some aren't. Michael Schumacher spent 14 years or so mixing damn good driving with being lucky. (The one year he wasn't lucky, of course, was the one he spent half of at home with 2 broken legs - 1999.)

Let's not forget about last year... Loosing the championship thanks to a broken engine isn't considered bad luck?

Whilst it was good for Hamilton's championship, I'd rather Alonso hadn't ended up in the Turn 5 wall - a close, unpredictable championship is always better than a predictable one, regardless of who wins it.

That was McLaren's first DNF this season.

Well, of course it's always better. At least THAT would convince me that Hamilton has won the title by his own means. Now, after Alonso's crash, Ron's smile and the entire team just giving :/ faces, I just don't believe it.

Take a close-up look at Alonso's right-rear side (the damaged area). You'll see two things badly damaged.

One, part of the aerodynamic system .....

.....being the only real hazard left.

+rep. 👍

 

[Stevisiov]

Well, of course it's always better. At least THAT would convince me that Hamilton has won the title by his own means. Now, after Alonso's crash, Ron's smile and the entire team just giving :/ faces, I just don't believe it.

giving :/ faces? is that indifferent? I have a video of Mclarens reaction, and they hardly look like they are having a picnic down in the garages. Whats more I didn't catch Ron Dennis's cheeky smile although if you care to point out a video in which he does then, perhaps he did. If he did smile about it then it is bang out of order, but I didn't see him smiling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXVnIWhkH2w&NR=1

as for Alonso's crash, I was gutted, I wanted to see this go to the final race all without any hitches, Alonso, hamilton, Kimi, Massa all with a shot to have a last race show down. Unfortunatly we won't and unless hamilton doesn't get a top 8 finish next race then its unlikely there is going to be much competition going into the last race.

Still I am not going to moan that Hamilton hasn't won it by his own means, since He quite certainly will have done, I have seen enough qualifing sesions this year to decide that one myslef. Sure His luck has been up, sure Alonso's setups will have helped, sure he has the backing of a big team. So that means he hasn't done it by his own means right!?, its not like it was him driving the car by his own means in those qualifying sessions was it?

If he wins the F1 championship he deserves it, are there other drivers out there that deserve it? yes. This, 'not winning by his own means' nonesense is a bit naive.

 

[Only_in_f1]

If he wins the F1 championship he deserves it, are there other drivers out there that deserve it? yes. This, 'not winning by his own means' nonesense is a bit naive.

Well said 👍

Ive said it before, no matter what he had, the backing or the set up, he still had to get the job done. Im sure he wont be that lucky in the next few years, it just what happens in F1.

Alonso's had luck and backing before. Last year Bahrain Massa spins misses him by inches. Lucky? Yes.
Having FB as his manager gave him a clear advantage over Fisi last year. He was lucky that MS broke down in Japan, but as i said, he still had to get the job done and he did and it very well.
IMO Kimi deserved to win it in previous years, but his car broke down so many times and the wheel/suspention breaking off when leading last lap, begin hit at Hungary, i think it was, while minding his own.

Alonso's a great driver, hes not a two time world champion for nothing. He deserved all he got in past two years. This year hes been unlucky, but im sure he'll be back.

 

[Blake]

This year hes been unlucky, but im sure he'll be back.

I don’t see why everyone is calling Alonso unlucky. Both drivers have had one race where they scored no points and their team-mate scored 10. In that respect, they’re completely even and the points difference is down to how well they have coped with their ‘off days’. Alonso has often found himself battling with BMW and (laffo) Super Aguri drivers, where as if Lewis is having a bad day he’ll finish right behind Alonso.

That 12 point gap is all down to consistency.

 

[Greycap]

Sure, Hamilton has driven the car, and he has driven it well, that can't be denied. But show me another rookie, ever, that fills all the following points:

- The best car in the series on his first season
- The full support of the team on his first season
- The position as #1 driver in the team on his first season
- The extensive training since the beginning of his career by the F1 team

Correct. There isn't one. What I'm trying to point out is that there have been other rookies that could have done the same he did, given the same possibilities. What if Fernando or Kimi had been #1 driver for Ferrari in 2001? No doubt, the result would have been a record breaking rookie year and a world championship.

What took years for the others to achieve, Hamilton has got right in the beginning.

 

[Metar]

What if Fernando or Kimi had been #1 driver for Ferrari in 2001?

I dunno, I want to see Yuji Ide in the '04 Ferrari.

And flying pigs.

 

[Only_in_f1]

Yes he has had it easy, but he must have showed some promise while first in karting, im sure Ron didnt just walk into a kart track and say 'I want you to lead my team.'

I think even if they hadn't backed him he would have broken into F1.

Nick Heidfeld was backed by Mclaren form an early age. They put him in a seat at Prost + Sauber, they might have put him in the full Mclaren team if they didnt have Mika and DC.
Same with Button and Williams. They got him through lower formula and they got him into F1 and loaned him to other teams.

 

[Danny]

I has a questshun.

Say Alonso migrates to Ferrari.

Where does Massa go?

 

[Stevisiov]

Sure, Hamilton has driven the car, and he has driven it well, that can't be denied. But show me another rookie, ever, that fills all the following points:

- The best car in the series on his first season
- The full support of the team on his first season
- The position as #1 driver in the team on his first season
- The extensive training since the beginning of his career by the F1 team

Correct. There isn't one. What I'm trying to point out is that there have been other rookies that could have done the same he did, given the same possibilities. What if Fernando or Kimi had been #1 driver for Ferrari in 2001? No doubt, the result would have been a record breaking rookie year and a world championship.

What took years for the others to achieve, Hamilton has got right in the beginning.

I would agree, I think Kovalienen could pull off what Hamilton has given the same car (providing he had a start of season like the end of his season). But indeed this isn't the issue at all.

I have to say that it annoys me to no end when people say he is only the world champion because he had it made. No it is not at all, it is so naive to take such a stance. It is also naive to start saying he is the best driver ever because he has had the most succesfull debut year in f1's history, since as you rightly said there are others out there that could have done it in their first season given the opportunity. I would not argue against that.

It seems that darkfinal thinks that it is all luck and that people who think Hamilton deserves to win are Hamilton fanbois. I think you are only a Hamilton fanboy, if you think that Hamilton is the best F1 driver ever, but I don't see that many people with that stance around here. I would rather wait a few more years before I decide exactly how good Hamilton is, but there is no doubt he is bloody good, good enough to be a world champion no less.