General Tuning Guide (Updated 1.09)

  • Thread starter DolHaus
  • 631 comments
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MANARANCHE
Sorry, but i'm not understand : "Reduced lift off/power oversteer"
Can you explain me, and very sorry for my english
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Lift-off oversteer is the car turning severely with a small amount of steering angle and lifting the throttle. (Loose in)
Power oversteer is the rear end stepping out while exiting a turn with the throttle applied. (Loose off)

A small amount of this is generally a good thing as it helps the car to rotate entering and exiting allowing later, braking/lift-off and earlier acceleration. It is excessive when the driver must brake and accelerate in a straight line only, to avoid spins.
 
MANARANCHE
Sorry, but i'm not understand : "Reduced lift off/power oversteer"
Can you explain me, and very sorry for my english
Click to expand...
Lift off oversteer is simply a negative reaction from the car when decelerating and turning.

This can occur when braking hard into a corner, whilst braking the car remains stable and easy to control but when the brakes are released the rear of the car attempts to overtake the front resulting in oversteer.
The same situation can occur whilst accelerating and turning, the car remains stable and easy to control when accelerating in a corner but when the accelerator is released the front end of the car suddenly turn much more sharply and unsettles the car.

I hope that helps, please feel free to ask if you need further explanation 👍
 
Hello Mister Dolhaus,
With friends we organize a championship of running(race) of GT3.
Afin " to try " to balance cars, particularly difficult :banghead:thing with these, we opted for a ratio weight / power of 2,10. Having tested PP, then Power, then + weight this way seemed to us rather just.
You could express your opinion :gtpflag:
 
MANARANCHE
Hello Mister Dolhaus,
With friends we organize a championship of running(race) of GT3.
Afin " to try " to balance cars, particularly difficult :banghead:thing with these, we opted for a ratio weight / power of 2,10. Having tested PP, then Power, then + weight this way seemed to us rather just.
You could express your opinion :gtpflag:
Click to expand...

Using the power to weight ratio is usually the most accurate approach. This is what my league does for every season/category we race. To ensure close and competative racing we also implement a "Success Ballast" system. In some series this is also often refered to as "Performance Weight". This allows us to ensure that no one driver/car runs away with the season and helps adjust for other gains certain cars may have from higher torque or aero.
 
MANARANCHE
Hello Mister Dolhaus,
With friends we organize a championship of running(race) of GT3.
Afin " to try " to balance cars, particularly difficult :banghead:thing with these, we opted for a ratio weight / power of 2,10. Having tested PP, then Power, then + weight this way seemed to us rather just.
You could express your opinion :gtpflag:
Click to expand...
It's a decent starting point for balancing but I would always advise thorough testing done by multiple drivers to ensure that none of the cars have an edge over the others. PD sometimes puts hidden values on cars such as wider tyres or engines that are outputting more power than the figures would suggest and this will lead to them having a distinct performance advantage 👍

Good luck with your race series :cheers:
 
DolHaus
I've got hope, I just think it will take time. We might look back in 6 months time and not remember what we were complaining about!
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Sorry, was just looking through for a diagram which may help me make a point and I found this about camber..

You would have thought so wouldn't you.:lol:
 
LSD Tuning​

Ok, I'll skip the basic theory stuff and try to explain how to set it up rather than how it works, you can read about that here if you would like 👍

(*This will be mostly describing a RWD chassis as they are the easiest to explain)

There are two separate functions:

Accel - Activated by torque being delivered from the engine to the wheels. It controls the amount of differential rotation possible while accelerating
Decel - Activated by resistive torque coming from the brakes/rolling resistance of the car. It controls the amount of differential rotation while braking (and to a lesser extent coasting)

And one that controls the transition between the two:

Initial - Controls how smooth or aggressive the change in state is



What do the numbers represent?

We have a sliding scale for each of the functions that ranges from 5-60.


5 Represents an open differential - An open differential means that the inside/outside wheels can rotate separately of each other at any speed.

Pros:-
Accel: Can turn more tightly/maintain rotation while accelerating
Decel: Can turn more tightly/maintain rotation while braking/coasting

Cons:-
Accel: Inefficient power transfer and has a tendency to spin the unloaded inside wheel under acceleration or suddenly lose traction on outside wheel if traction is broken.
Decel: Instability during braking or over rotation when coasting


60 Represents a locked differential - A locked differential means that the inside/outside wheels are forced to rotate at the same speed.

Pros:-
Accel: Maximum acceleration force in a straight line and predictability when traction is broken
Decel: Increased stability/predictability during braking

Cons:-
Accel: Greatly reduced rotational ability when accelerating
Decel: Greatly reduced rotational ability when braking/coasting



What about the Initial?

The Initial should be looked at as a way of controlling how fast/aggressive the transition between the Accel/Decel functions is.

-The lower the number, the faster and more aggressive the transition will be.
-The higher the number the smoother the transfer will be.

Low number:-
Pros: The car will be more responsive to throttle/brake input
Cons: Harder to control/predict and more likely to become unstable

High number:-
Pros: The switch will be more consistent and predictable enhancing stability
Cons: Less responsive to throttle/brake input



What should I be aiming for when tuning?

In the most basic terms, efficiency. The LSD needs to enable enough rotation to allow you to follow the fastest lines in and out of corners without inducing instability or being inefficient during power delivery.


How do I achieve this?

The best way as with all other tuning processes is trial and error and looking out for indicators. Indicators will come in the form of visual cues from the tyre temperature displays so keep your eye on this and feedback cues from driving feel.

Accel: This is the easiest to diagnose, it basically comes down to which wheel goes red first when traction is lost. If the outside wheel is lighting up then the Accel is too high, if the inside wheel is lighting up then the Accel is too low.

Decel: This one comes down to feel more than anything so trial and error will be the best approach here. If the car feels unresponsive to steering input when braking then the Decel is too high, if the car tends to over rotate when braking and turning then the Decel is too low.

Initial: This one is a little harder to explain as the symptoms can masquerade as other problems with the Accel/Decel. Sudden negative reactions to either acceleration (snap oversteer) or braking (sudden ploughing or diving in the direction of rotation) are generally a sign that the Initial is too low. If the car feels a bit numb/sluggish when responding to acceleration or brake application/release then this can be indicative of the Initial being set too high, this often leads to understeer.


Where Should I begin?

Most cars have a preset, greyed-out value for the stock LSD, this is generally where I start when fitting the full custom unit. I will then test the car and try to analyse how the LSD is performing. This is my thought process as I approach that first conventional corner (Brake-Turn in-Throttle) -

(Brake)

Does it over rotate when braking?
Yes: Increase Decel
No: Leave it alone

Does it under rotate when braking?
Yes: Decrease Decel
No: Leave it alone

(Turn in)

How does the car respond when the brake is released while rotating?
Understeer: Decrease Initial
Oversteer: Increase Initial
Neutral: Leave it alone

(Throttle)

Does the inside wheel or outside wheel go red under acceleration while rotating?
Inside: Increase Accel
Outside: Decrease Accel
Both (gradual): Decrease Accel
Both (sudden): Decrease Accel + Increase Initial

Does the car understeer under acceleration?
Yes: Decrease Accel
No: Leave it alone


Ok, now I have it basically set up how do I refine it?

Well, this all comes down to what you're driving, where and how you're driving it.

Accel: Lowering Accel numbers will allow you to get on the throttle much earlier while rotating but the downside of this is that you will not get as much acceleration force. This approach will suit tracks with flowing complex corners where getting on the thottle early and sustaining pace is more important than raw acceleration. Increasing Accel numbers will give you much more efficient drive out of the corners but at the cost of exit rotation. This approach will suit tracks with a lot of slow tight corners where getting on the thottle early is less important than drive out of the corner.

Decel: This is dictated by track type and driver preference. Increasing Decel numbers will give you much more stable and firm braking in a straight line which will suit fast straights with tight turns at the end, this will also suit drivers who prefer conventional straight line braking. Decreasing Decel numbers will help to maintain/increase rotation during braking which will suit tighter, twisty tracks where trail braking is more efficient or preferred.

Initial: If you want the car to be as sharp and nimble as possible then you will want to try decreasing the Initial as far as you can without making it twitchy, this will suit cars and tracks that need an aggressive approach and consistency is less important. Increasing the Initial will make the car much more predictable and consistent but the risk of increasing this too far is inducing understeer, this may suit more difficult cars or situations where consistency is more important than raw speed.
 
Nice new add on 👍👍👍 my friend, I like this approach. It's pretty much what I've went back to doing, it just seems that I like cars that are very responsive to the input, I get bored after a while when they feel like cars on a rail :rolleyes:.

On an other subject that seems to have become a bit of a taboo :scared:, any plans on the Camber Experiment? If it's off that's ok and I'll get to testing that eventually, and if it's still on well you can count on me to continue, and I'm almost sure I know someone who would also like to keep this alive, so if you're up to it just drop me a line and I'll try to round up a few test pilots.:cheers:
 
TurnLeft
Nice new add on 👍👍👍 my friend, I like this approach. It's pretty much what I've went back to doing, it just seems that I like cars that are very responsive to the input, I get bored after a while when they feel like cars on a rail :rolleyes:.

On an other subject that seems to have become a bit of a taboo :scared:, any plans on the Camber Experiment? If it's off that's ok and I'll get to testing that eventually, and if it's still on well you can count on me to continue, and I'm almost sure I know someone who would also like to keep this alive, so if you're up to it just drop me a line and I'll try to round up a few test pilots.:cheers:
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Unfortunately I just can't spare the time to run the experiment any more, my work load has increased dramatically over the last few months and some things are having to be left by the wayside. If anyone else wants to take the reins then they are more than welcome and I would be happy to help behind the scenes and turn over control of the spreadsheets 👍

As far as I'm concerned the results from the first test were enough evidence for me to say that under some circumstances there are gains to be found between 0.0 and 1.0 degree of camber. Its by no means a guaranteed gain but its worth trying to see what effects it has if you are looking for every last drop of speed at a circuit.
 
Hello DolHaus, hello everybody:

First of all, I like to thank you your effort and time spent on your tuning guide; and of course, thank you for sharing it. I'm starting to tune on GT6 and it's a big scenario and difficult to control all "variables". Like I said, I've read your guide and it's very clear, but I have a question:

On "#3" where you talk about dampers:

...
Front Dampers:

Stiff = Increase understeer
Soft = Decrease understeer

Rear Dampers:

Stiff = Increase oversteer
Soft = Decrease oversteer
...

It confuses me, because other threads and other guides talk separatelly about compression and extension, and weight transfer control.

Could you explain it a little more deeply.

Thank you very much.


Best regards,
ST70
 
speedy turtle
Hello DolHaus, hello everybody:

First of all, I like to thank you your effort and time spent on your tuning guide; and of course, thank you for sharing it. I'm starting to tune on GT6 and it's a big scenario and difficult to control all "variables". Like I said, I've read your guide and it's very clear, but I have a question:

On "#3" where you talk about dampers:

...
Front Dampers:

Stiff = Increase understeer
Soft = Decrease understeer

Rear Dampers:

Stiff = Increase oversteer
Soft = Decrease oversteer
...

It confuses me, because other threads and other guides talk separatelly about compression and extension, and weight transfer control.

Could you explain it a little more deeply.

Thank you very much.


Best regards,
ST70
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In truth its a very simplified conclusion in order to fit a very simplified guide :lol:

Do you want a cheat-sheet style practical guide or do you want to go into the underlying physics? I will warn you ahead of time that the rabbit hole goes fairly deep and there is a lot to take in
 
DolHaus
In truth its a very simplified conclusion in order to fit a very simplified guide :lol:

Do you want a cheat-sheet style practical guide or do you want to go into the underlying physics? I will warn you ahead of time that the rabbit hole goes fairly deep and there is a lot to take in
Click to expand...

Go as deep as possible with the info 👍 :cheers:
 
Well I don't like to tune my real street car, but I'd like to go as deep as possible into GT6 :)

I've read Mr. Praiano's thread, I've read Mr. Hamilton's thread and tune guide, and I've learned very much... but I don't know, I feel I need something else. When I see others tune sheets I see things that debunks all "my" theory... yes of course, every pilot needs its own tune, but for a beginner tuner it is frustrating.

Maybe, the only thing I need is time to put into practise all the knowledge I've learned... I don't know.

I'll appreciate any kind of help or advise.


Thank you very much.
---
Excuse me if I'm asking for things you've answered on later posts, I'm starting now to read your thread and I don't like to wait till I finish to read all the post and find you closed the thread :(

Thanks again,

ST70
 
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speedy turtle
Well I don't like to tune my real street car, but I'd like to go as deep as possible into GT6 :)

I've read Mr. Praiano's thread, I've read Mr. Hamilton's thread and tune guide, and I've learned very much... but I don't know, I feel I need something else. When I see others tune sheets I see things that debunks all "my" theory... yes of course, every pilot needs its own tune, but for a beginner tuner it is frustrating.

Maybe, the only thing I need is time to put into practise all the knowledge I've learned... I don't know.

I'll appreciate any kind of help or advise.


Thank you very much.
---
Excuse me if I'm asking for things you've answered on later posts, I'm starting now to read your thread and I don't like to wait till I finish to read all the post and find you closed the thread :(

Thanks again,

ST70
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Ok so how about we run through the tuning process step by step so you have practical experience to help tie all the bits of theory together? I will teach you what I and many others consider to be the most effective tuning process, there is nothing complicated about it really just a matter of trial and error and a basic understanding of the how the components work and what is going on physics wise.


The first step is choosing a suitable car to work on, for the sake of simplicity I recommend a front engine, rear wheel drive (FR) sports car such as an MX5/Miata or a BRZ/FRS/GT86, something fast enough to be fun but not a hardcore monster. Let me know what you've chosen and we'll go from there.
The second step is picking a track that you know well, like and are prepared to do a lot of laps on, pick a track with a good variety of corners and speeds that isn't too long (1:30ish lap?).

RodeRuner1967
Go as deep as possible with the info 👍 :cheers:
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I will try to go into detail but I don't want to write out pages and pages of theory :lol:
 
It sounds perfect. That's what I need, some likes a step by step process.

I've been reading more in depth your thread and little by little I'm learning much more and clarifying my concepts, but it is a very slow reading, so I only go by post #234. Again thank you for your time and effort, and undoubtedly for sharing it, doing it permit others like me to "enjoy" on GT6 and not only "drive" on GT6.

I've choosen the MX5 and Deep Forest. I was adviced to race on Trial Mountain but maybe it is a bit technical and I changed to D. Forest, but if you recomend me other track, I'll change to it.

Last weekend I started with some modifications and I was realising about my improvements, but I'd prefer to start again from scratch with your teaches.


Ok... my brain is open to learn, my hands are ready to practice, and I'm ready to jump from driving to racing... :lol:


Best regards,

ST70
 
speedy turtle
It sounds perfect. That's what I need, some likes a step by step process.

I've been reading more in depth your thread and little by little I'm learning much more and clarifying my concepts, but it is a very slow reading, so I only go by post #234. Again thank you for your time and effort, and undoubtedly for sharing it, doing it permit others like me to "enjoy" on GT6 and not only "drive" on GT6.

I've choosen the MX5 and Deep Forest. I was adviced to race on Trial Mountain but maybe it is a bit technical and I changed to D. Forest, but if you recomend me other track, I'll change to it.

Last weekend I started with some modifications and I was realising about my improvements, but I'd prefer to start again from scratch with your teaches.


Ok... my brain is open to learn, my hands are ready to practice, and I'm ready to jump from driving to racing... :lol:


Best regards,

ST70
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Deep Forest and Trial Mountain were my go-to tracks for general tuning so that's perfect 👍
I found that Deep Forest is the best all round track to test a car at as it has a good variety of corners, speeds and undulations, Trial Mountain is a bit bumpier and more technical so its a good test for more unstable cars to make sure that they're not going to do anything unexpected and for testing high speed performance I would usually head to Grand Valley Speedway. By testing and modifying a car at all of these different circuits you can either come up with a good all rounder that will be able to perform adequately where ever you take it without modification or you can use the ABC tuning sheets to have a more specialised set up that you can switch to depending on the circuit you are racing at to help give you a performance edge over your opponents.


So now we have our car and track selected we must begin the process of evaluating our cars performance. One of the most important things during the testing process is consistency, if your racing line and lap times are all over the place then its very hard to identify what might be causing a problem, the more effort you put into learning a track the easier the tuning process becomes. Separating mechanical issues from driver error is also important so be prepared to analyse your own performance and compare it with others, the FITT contests run in the Tuning forum are great for this because everyone is running the same car at more or less the same spec and they'll be more than happy to brag about fastest laps :lol: Just be aware that some people are always going to be able to drive faster so just spend some time getting to know who's times you should be looking at to get perspective.

Do you want to build the car to a certain specification (PP + tyre type) or shall we just keep the car unchanged in terms of power and weight for the sake of simplicity?

In either case you should fit the custom suspension, custom transmission and custom LSD. Take note of the cars stock LSD settings before changing to the custom diff and copy them onto the custom unit if possible (some cars have impossible stock settings).

With the custom suspension fitted we can now go about what I like to call zeroing the car, its a very simple process where we remove all toe (set to 0.00 front/rear) and camber (set to 0.0 front/rear) from the car in order to get a more honest performance from the car. We do this is because for what ever reason in GT6 Camber has a massively negative effect on lap time and just seems to reduce traction, its not a totally useless setting but 95% of your cars are going to be faster set at 0.0. The same is somewhat true of stock Toe settings, you'll notice that every car come set at 0.60 rear toe and this adds a whole bunch of stability and understeer which most of the time just slows you down. However unlike Camber, Toe adjustments will be used later in the process to extract more performance as it has no inherent drawbacks when used appropriately.

Have a quick look at the transmission to check that it's suitable for the track you're at, it doesn't need to be set perfectly at this stage of the process but you don't want to be bouncing off the limiter on the straights because the max speed is too low or struggling through the gears because it's set too high. If you have fitted the custom transmission first and then added some power parts afterwards then make sure you reset the transmission before hitting the track as some parts allow the engine to hit a higher RPM limit and this will require changes in the gearing in order to maintain performance.

Now onto basic testing and setting some baseline performance figures, we need to make sure that all driver aids are off except for ABS 1 and Driving line (optional). We need to make sure that we are getting as much feedback from the car as possible, traction control, ASM and SRF will all interfere with the driving experience and give false impressions of how our car is performing.

You need to get out on the track and put a whole bunch of laps in until you feel like you know both the car and the track well, keep driving until your lap times become as consistent as possible, on a lap time of 1:30-2:00 I would be looking to be able to lap within 1-2 seconds of my best time consistently. You don't need to be concentrating too much on how the car is performing at this stage, concentrate more on your own performance but if the car is consistently doing something bad then let me know as sometimes you just need to make a few basic adjustments in order to make a car easier to live with.




My PS3 died a long time ago so I am unable to build the car with you, it would be very helpful if you could copy and fill out this tuning sheet with all the relevant details so I know what we're dealing with. 👍


Wheel / Joypad:
Power: x BHP @ x Rpm / x kgfm @ x Rpm
Weight: x kg
Performance Points: x PP
Wheels: Standard Size
Fitted parts: x
Tires: x
Weight Distribution: x:x

Suspension : (Height-Adjustable, Fully-Customisable Suspension)​

Ride Height: Front: x Rear: x
Spring Rate: Front: x kg Rear: x kg
Dampers (Compression):Front: x Rear: x
Dampers (Extension): Front: x Rear: x
Anti-Roll Bars: Front: x Rear: x
Camber Angle (-): Front: 0.0° Rear: 0.0°
Toe Angle: Front: 0.00° Rear: 0.00°
Brakes : F: 5 R: 5




Differential Gear: Fully Customisable Mechanical Limited-Slip Diff​

Initial Torque: R= x
Acceleration Sensitivity: R= x
Braking Sensitivity: R= x

Clutch & Flywheel: x
Propeller Shaft: x


Power​

Oil Change: x
Power Limiter: x %
Engine Tuning: Stage x
Computer: x
Exhaust: x
Exhaust Manifold: x
Catalytic Converter: x
Intake Tuning: x
Turbo Kit: Stage: x
Nitrous Oxide (N2O): x

Body​

Body Rigidity Improvement: x
Downforce: F: x R: x
Weight Reduction: x
Bonnet: x
Windows: x
Ballast: x kg
Ballast position: x%
 
Ok, I'm going to test the "0'0 version" car and let you know how I feel.

You asked me if I want a PP/tyre type car or prefer to mantain the car unchanged in terms of power and weight... maybe I prefer the second choice; I like to learn how to make a good tune, that teaches me to change later to any desired PP.

Like I told you, I've been working yet with the Miata only changing suspension, transmission and gear box. Without modifyng weight/ballast nor power parts; and I would like to follow this path, I'll have time later to convert the Miata into a mucle car :lol:


Thank you.

ST70
 
speedy turtle
Ok, I'm going to test the "0'0 version" car and let you know how I feel.

You asked me if I want a PP/tyre type car or prefer to mantain the car unchanged in terms of power and weight... maybe I prefer the second choice; I like to learn how to make a good tune, that teaches me to change later to any desired PP.

Like I told you, I've been working yet with the Miata only changing suspension, transmission and gear box. Without modifyng weight/ballast nor power parts; and I would like to follow this path, I'll have time later to convert the Miata into a mucle car :lol:


Thank you.

ST70
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Excellent, let me know when you feel happy and consistent with the car and track and we'll continue 👍

Fitting modifications to meet a particular spec is just common sense most of the time, removing weight is generally preferable to adding power as on most tracks you spend more time going through the corners then hammering down the straights and GT's air resistance/top speed modelling has always been a bit quirky. There is some finesse to selecting the ideal mix of mods/parts but again its just trial and error for the most part.
 
Well, maybe it seems I've not ride many laps, but it's not my first time on Deep Forest. I know the circuit, I feel confortable on it, I know the turns I feel worse and those where I feel better. My lap times have a 5 tenths gap, but 2 seconds slower than my other attempts, I've sensations to share and the following tune:

Mazda MX-5 Miata 1.8 RS (NB, J) '98


Wheel / Joypad: Always DS3 controller
Power: 145 BHP @ 6200 Rpm / 16.62 kgfm @ 4500 Rpm
(The rpm are aprox. More or less the value I see on the graph. The torque value that I read is 163 Nm)
Weight: 1030 kg
Performance Points: 371 PP
Wheels: Standard Size
Fitted parts: None
Tires: SH
Weight Distribution: 53:47

Suspension: (Height-Adjustable, Fully-Customisable Suspension) (All standard values)


Ride Height: Front: 110 mm Rear: 110 mm
Spring Rate: Front: 3.52 kg Rear: 3.51 kg
Dampers (Compression): Front: 3 Rear: 3
Dampers (Extension): Front: 3 Rear: 3
Anti-Roll Bars: Front: 3 Rear: 3
Camber Angle (-): Front: 0.0° Rear: 0.0°
Toe Angle: Front: 0.00° Rear: 0.00°
Brakes : Front: 5 Rear: 5


Differential Gear: (Fully Customisable Mechanical Limited-Slip Diff) (All standard values)

Initial Torque: R= 10
Acceleration Sensitivity: R= 40
Braking Sensitivity: R= 20

Clutch & Flywheel: Standard
Propeller Shaft: Std


Power: (All standard values)


Oil Change: No
Power Limiter: 100 %
Engine Tuning: Std
Computer: Std
Exhaust: Std
Exhaust Manifold: Std
Catalytic Converter: Std
Intake Tuning: Std
Turbo Kit: Stage: Std
Nitrous Oxide (N2O): No

Body: (All standard values)


Body Rigidity Improvement: No
Downforce: F: - R: -
Weight Reduction: No
Bonnet: Std
Windows: Std
Ballast: 0 kg
Ballast position: 0%


The overall sensations are "good". It's an easy to drive car, at least with this power and SH tires, a little understeer when "coasting" (I don't know if you use this term, but I heard it on GTPlanet, I mean when I'm not pushing the throttle nor the brakes), but a little oversteer when I push throttle after the apex on a medium to low turn.

I feel a light body roll that makes to "hear the tyres" on late corner entry and makes the outside front tyre goes to orange...

Heeeeeey everybody, please don't laugh, I'm starting :dopey: :lol::lol::lol: :cheers:

I don't know what more to say you, please advise me what other sensations must I record.

Oh yes, I feel it very faint when throttle exiting turns, it needs more energy.


Thank you.
 
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