General Tuning Guide (Updated 1.09)

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by DolHaus, Jan 16, 2014.

  1. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Only for the sake of simplicity really, in truth you can do them either way round or even at the same time once you get used to what each adjustment is likely to affect. Generally ARB's have more of an effect on the grip limits of the car than the dampers which are responsible for how that grip is applied, it is more important to know where the physical limitations of your car are so you can work more effectively within them.

    When I tune a car I don't really follow a specific order for adjustments, I can work out fairly quickly on a test drive what needs tackling first and will start from there but this comes with experience. Its a complicated mental process to explain because there are a lot of considerations that go into every decision, lots of little bits of physics theory that affect the bigger picture (eg. tyre theory or weight transfer)and its hard to know what to explain and what you already know. The damper tuning process should hopefully help stick some of the pieces together because the way they operate is brilliantly simplified, it might sound a little confusing at first but once you get your head around the concept then all the rest of the pieces fall into place.
     
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  2. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

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    Thank you for your explanation. I’ve read lots of threads where each one recommends a different way and sometimes it becomes confusing.

    Yesterday I was viewing my replays and I noted the following:

    - On corner entry when I brake the car, it dives, the front dampers comprises… I think the rear don’t extends but I’m not really sure. I’d say that the ride doesn’t rise from the rear tyres level, but I don’t know if it is possible…

    - On late corner entry the car roll and then the front outside tyre goes to orange, light orange, that I don’t know if it is “admissible” or we are looking for white tyres everywhere… the ride returns its early dive and only rolls.

    - On mid corner when off brakes and off throttle I feel little understeer, but like “mid corner” is a very short distance, at least with this car on this circuit, I immediately push the throttle and go to next stage. It is the maximum point of body roll but it is not very pronounced…

    - On apex to exit while throttle, the car shows light oversteer, maybe it can’t considered as oversteer but I’d say I see a light slide on the replay. Thinking on dampers, I don’t see any rear compression… maybe 200hp are few to make the car sink; the roll starts to decrease.

    - On corner exit I think the car goes well, I have no orange tyres, no sink, no sliding… excuse me but I don’t know what to transmit to you.

    One question, I don’t know well what represent that two icons on the right down corner of the data monitor: the slidding car and the red light over it. Could you explain, please?

    GT6.jpg

    I think the slidding car represents a lateral losing tyre grip, and the red light longitudinal losing, but I don’t know if I’m right.
     
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  3. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    I'm sure slidding car is the traction control indicator :). If the aid is enabled, the icon is displayed on screen and when it flashes, this means the system is working/taking effect. If you tune the car with TC on and get to a point where this light never flashes, you can turn TC off and have the car handle the same :).

    The red light is the rev-limit indicator. If it is lit, it means it's time to change gear :). If it's flashing means it's really time to change gear :lol:.
    :cheers:
     
  4. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Ok thats great, plenty of stuff we can begin to modify :tup:

    As @Thorin Cain mentions it does look like you've got some kind of aid turned on, sometimes traction control can switch itself back on for no apparent reason after leaving a track so please check that everything except ABS is turned off*. The other one is the RPM limiter I believe, I can't remember if it flashes when you cross the red line or when you're bouncing off the limiter but either way its unimportant to tuning provided you're driving at a proficient level :tup: (As a side note, which view do you drive from? )


    All negative behaviours encountered while driving are caused by either too much or too little weight being transferred onto or away from a particular wheel. Our tyres give us grip based on the amount of weight we put on top of them, if there is too much weight transferred to it then the tyre goes beyond its grip limit and it loses traction, if there is too little weight transferred to them then the contact patch of the tyre is reduced and it cannot generate enough traction to resist the forces acting upon it.
    The basic results at either end of the scale are more or less the same (losing traction) so we must use a little common sense to find our solution but don't discount the possibility that the solution may be contrary to your impression so don't be afraid to experiment.


    We can break dampers down into pairs which are responsible for certain phases of weight transfer but we need to keep in mind that it's a three dimensional puzzle. The basic pairs are as follows:

    Accelerating (weight transferring away from front and onto the rear) = Front extension/Rear compression
    Decelerating (weight transferring onto front and away from the rear) = Front compression/Rear extension

    We will now apply this logic to your analysis of corner entry behaviour

    To stop the car diving so much under braking we need to manage our forward weight transfer better. By managing our weight transfer better we can hopefully extract more performance from the tyres by preventing them reaching their limits which will allow you to push the car harder and go faster. We are dealing with the deceleration behaviour so our first port of call will be the Front Compression/Rear extension, in this stage we will be manipulating both settings simultaneously rather than independently. We will look at manipulating font and rear separately at a later stage but as it can cause some unexpected behaviour it is easier to treat them as a pair.

    Our first move will be to increase the Front compression/Rear extension by +1 at a time and test to see if the braking behaviour has improved. Earlier I mentioned that we must keep in mind that its a three dimensional puzzle and this becomes apparent when increasing the front compression. We are looking primarily at the linear weight transfer but by making adjustments we are also affecting the lateral weight transfer and so must be mindful of generating other negative effects. One of the problems that can occur with raising the front compression is an increase in low speed understeer due to the lack of weight transfer to the outside wheel so while you may have increased performance at one point on the track you then lose time elsewhere. Just try to pay attention to what changes from lap to lap and make sure you're not compromising more than you're improving, concentrate mostly on the expected results but remain aware of side effects.

    *If it turns out you have been running with traction control or any other aids then we may need to revisit a few steps just to confirm that everything is as it should be. Its an easy mistake to make but it's important that I know what is going on in this instance
     
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  5. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

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    Thank you Thorin Cain.

    Bit to bit I'm learning much more in few days than I've learned in two years. thank you for your contribution.


    ST70
     
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  6. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

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    Yes, yes, I know. I made the question yesterday because it was a doubt that I had from long time ago.

    Now is easy to realize when the aids are on. Last week it happens to me, but the car’s behavior changed dramatically, it feels like a brick and I detected immediately “something” went wrong… TCS had changed to 5, but I don’t know why :odd:

    I take into account your explanation about dampers, I’ll put it into practice. :cheers:
     
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  7. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Don't worry, sometimes it happens when you leave the track after turning it off, another one of GT's quirks :lol:
     
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  8. Death2508

    Death2508

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    I always check my RA menu when I get to the track to check that everything is alright.

    @DolHaus I still can't tune MR/M4WD well, no surprise there. Dampers confuse me even though I know how they work.
     
  9. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    With MRs its generally a case of preventing oversteer by controlling weight transfer, with 4WDs its more a case of preventing understeer but you'll need to be more specific in order for me to help. Dampers can help with both problems but they are more of a polish than a fresh coat so to speak,if there are underlying problems with the key settings then dampers won't be influential enough to overcome the effects
     
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  10. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

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    Hi Dolhaus:

    I've been testing dampers like you told me, changing them like a pair: front DC / rear DE.

    Increasing 1, 2 or 3 tics (4 to 6) I've noticed the car turns better, I can start to brake later and start to throttle earlier, obviously it reduces diving.

    But if I continue increasing: 7 to 10, it starts to oversteer on low speed corners exit when I push the throttle, and understeer on high speed corners, from apex to exit. In general its behaviour improves on corner entry, but worsens on corner exit, and finally I lose time per lap.

    I think, at least on my hands, the best combination is 5/5 or 6/6 (front comp./rear ext.) In any case I think we'll obtain better results when manipulate them separately, but I don't know when, maybe now or after configuring front ext./rear comp.?

    Thank you.


    Best regards,
    ST70
     
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  11. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Excellent work, sounds more or less like the results I would expect :tup:

    For the time being we will use the softer option (5/5) as next we will be adjusting the opposite pair and this can affect front end grip if its a bit too stiff. We will now be focussing on corner exit behaviour by manipulating the Front Extension/Rear Compression, the reason why this is important is because we need to reduce the loss in grip that the front wheels experience when we accelerate (car accelerates forward = weight transfers backwards). By keeping weight over the front axle we maintain a larger tyre contact patch and therefore our tyre is better equipped to handle the load being placed upon it.

    We will raise the Front Extension/Rear Compression in the same fashion that we did the previous pair, you should find that you get less understeer during corner exit and be able to get on the throttle earlier, if they are set too high then you will get oversteer during throttle application which suggests that the rear wheels aren't getting enough load to generate grip.

    Generally I prefer to have my Front Extension/Rear Compression set higher than my Front Compression/Rear Extension, this shouldn't be taken as gospel though as there will always be a few exceptions but most of the time this is what you should be aiming for. This is where the whole three dimensional puzzle thing starts to become more apparent and important, we are trying to make adjustments to the linear weight transfer behaviour but by doing so we are also making changes to the lateral weight transfer behaviour and this can produce some unexpected results. If the increasing understeer that you noted in relation to increased (F)Compression damping starts to return as you increase the (F)Extension then let me know as this would suggest that you've set the Front Compression/Rear Extension a little bit too high.

    This stage of the tuning process can ell us important information about the rest of the settings on the car, if you find that you end up with either pair of dampers set at their maximum/minimum values without reaching the desired effect then you will need to look at retuning the spring rates or ARB's in order to get the desired results. For example if I was tuning my Front extension/Rear compression damping and had reached 10/10 and still felt that the car was understeering on exit and not showing any signs of oversteer then I would look at stiffening the spring rates on the rear initially but likely front as well until I found the behaviour I was looking for. If however I found that the car was understeering on corner entry/mid after setting the Front Compression/Rear Extension to 1/1 then I would probably look at making adjustments to my ARB's first before perhaps looking at the spring rates. This isn't to say that having any of the dampers set at maximum or minimum values is a bad thing, it can be perfectly fine as long as setting it that way gives the desired performance and isn't just as good as it can be but could be better. You just need to keep in mind which settings affect which elements of weight transfer and try them one by one until you find the change you were looking for.


    Longitudinal (front/back) = Springs, Dampers

    Lateral (side to side) = Springs, dampers, ARBs
     
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  12. Death2508

    Death2508

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    Add positive front toe and/or more front camber for better mid-exit grip.
     
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  13. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Never add camber if you want more grip, camber only reduces grip in GT6
     
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  14. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Using it right will give grip more on same places as real-world, but "right" in GT6 is slightly wrong if compared to real-world.
    On GT6 every time you add more front camber it also adds toe-in tenth of amount what you have entered camber amount. This 10:1 have to neutralized if you want only camber benefits.
    So if you desired to have -0.3° front camber and zero toe you had to dial -0.03 toe-out for keeping actual effective toe zero on front.
    Other thing about camber is kinda realistic, even its bit exaggerated on GT6, body softness is playing bit with wheels, making them point slightly apart during weight load (ie cornering) and that interferes bit on steering, but if you install body rigidity improvement on car that not wanted effect is totally gone.
     
  15. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

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    Focusing only on corner exit, I feel more confident with extension values on 5/5 or 6/6 (front/rear), treating them like a pair as we trated previously the compression.

    When I go on 7/7 I start to feel a little oversteer, nothing annoying but it's beginning to be heard. If I go further, 8/8 to 10/10, the oversteer increases and It forces me to be more cautious with the throttle, making the lap times obviously worse.

    Going a step further, and following your indications: "Generally I prefer to have my Front Extension/Rear Compression set higher than my Front Compression/Rear Extension", I finished my last tests configuring DC 5/6 and DE 6/5 and I felt again I can control easily a bit funny car.
     
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  16. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    You talk a good game for sure but I've never seen you put it effectively into action. The whole camber + toe out was one of the first methods that presented itself after the 1.09 update "fixed" camber, a well known angry young man called Jack shared this information with me and I took it on board and tested it thoroughly as like many others I to wanted camber to work. The results were the same as any other application of camber in that there were no positive effects on lap time regardless of how the car was set up. Do yourself and forget real world physics if you want to build fast cars, the physics engine is loosely based upon certain principals but it does not follow them to the letter, knowing how to manipulate and exploit these principals is the key, real world knowledge is useful to reference but it is not directly applicable in the same way that knowing how to adjust for bullet drop, windage and the Coriolis effect in real life will not help you to make that 1000yrd head shot in COD, the physics are similar but different enough to render the calculations all but worthless.

    Excellent results :tup:

    So our dampers now look like this:

    F R
    DC 5 6
    DE 6 5

    We can now begin to manipulate the dampers individually to further influence the behaviour of the car, this isn't always necessary or wise but its always worth checking.
    At this stage we will label this tune "Base tune" and copy the settings to tuning sheet B, tuning sheet B will now be the one we are modifying as we need to keep our base tune separate for referencing performance against. It can be a little bit easy to get lost when we start tweaking things so having a reference point with known performance will help us determine if we are making it better or worse.
    You mentioned that at 7/7 you were beginning to get oversteer which suggests that the rear end is more or less at its practical limit but we don't know whether we are maximising front end grip during acceleration so we must try this:

    F R
    DC 5 6
    DE 7 5

    Concentrate on the front end during the test drive and see if you notice any difference, if there is no noticeable difference then try a click or two higher on the front DE and check again. If you notice an improvement in front end grip but the rear starts to get a bit slippery then try lowering the rear DC a click and see if you get rid of the negative effects while maintaining the positives, you might find nothing but at least you checked.

    Manipulating the dampers individually is just a case of thinking about what wheel is causing a problem and trying to add more or less weight to it during a certain phase, feel free to experiment but I'd like to hear what effects you are think you are encountering. Are there any areas where you think the car is still struggling as all modifications from now on will be targeted directly at these areas, the more information you give me then the more effectively I will be able to direct your modifications. :tup:
     
  17. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Every seriously taken real-world race driver knows at he's losing grip on straight line when he's applying camber on his car, they know at it is trade-off on maneuverability, corner speed and grip on straight. Real-world they can do small deals with playing tire pressure and better compound (on some cases), compound is available for us too, helping few extra tenths of camber when going on better compound, tire pressure isn't for us on GT6, but there is plenty on student different wheels/rubber shape to choose helping to deal camber.
    Haven't seen any proper tests where counter toe is applied on front camber, only tests where camber is applied straight on without countering generated camber thrust.

    Here's few example setups where camber is utilised, first one just pure replica of entry-level drifting car, build fully following Mike Kojima's "Building Basic Drift Chassis", it's on -4.0° front camber, and it can use bit more easily, then it just hits GT6 static caster angle and makes driving bit harder only coz camber equal or higher than caster.
    Second is Ford GT40 Mark I '66, build for cruising, it uses Porsche styled LSD, what can be taken out and instead use two-way lock, but then just counter grip is needed on rear using more toe-in. It has static camber on cruising version, after that is same tune edited for TT using only dynamic camber, what's thing what most of people are using on GT6 tuning.
    Fragility of dynamic camber tune is imminent, but also it has most straight grip and when height and body roll is well balanced it works nicely on corners too, it would never feel as much of car what static camber tune uses, but it's quick for arcade driver who doesn't fear of losing control of his car.

    Comparing those two Ford's and you'll might find out how dynamic versus static camber works on GT6.

    Now you have seen camber used effectively on action.


     
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  18. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    I'm well aware of how camber works in real life, the point you seem to be missing is that unlike real life where you lose a bit of straight line performance in return for an increase in cornering ability in GT6 there is no increase in cornering ability. You lose a negligible amount of straight line performance and lose a considerable amount of cornering grip regardless of how well suited your camber is suited to your supposed suspension geometry.

    My PS3 died many months ago so I won't be testing anything unfortunately but I can already tell you that you've given me nothing that could ever qualify as proof of anything. None of them are built as race cars and there is nothing to compare them to in order to gauge the degree of any supposed improvement.
    I often used camber on my drift cars because the inherent reduction in grip makes corner transitions much smoother, the cambered front end is less likely to snatch at grip as you chuck it across the curbs so control can be maintained more effectively (alternative method for reducing front grip would be an increase in spring rate but that has the drawback of making the car hop and skate across the surface therefore doing more harm than good). Transition between gripping and sliding is improved with camber, the car generally lets go and regains grip more smoothly but peak grip is reduced.
    In a drift car peak grip does not matter as much, your ability to control the car is more important than the cars physical capabilities so it is acceptable to make otherwise negative modifications, the peak grip is rarely utilised so there is no real loss. In racing the physical capabilities of the car are as important if not perhaps more important than the ability of the driver (within reason of course) so any amount of compromise will hurt you, if you can't reach the same peak grip as the car in front of you then he's going to get a little bit further away with every corner and there is going to be precisely bugger all you can do about it.
    Fair competition is where the problem with camber raises its ugly head and shows its most defining feature, I don't want to be crass and raise your FITT record but you can't help but notice the trend in the results when it comes to cars running camber. I'm sure with your apparent understanding of vehicular physics and theory you must be able to adjust the major knobs and buttons well enough to build a competitive car but the results never fall in your favour, is it that you perhaps used slightly the wrong caster angle in your equations based on Joe Greasy Spanners revised tyre theory (C1972) and maybe if you adjusted for toe deflection under compression you might somehow find those 3 seconds you were looking for? Or is it more likely that you're just blinding yourself to the obvious truth that your car would go much faster if you just left it at 0.0 and used the other settings to more effectively manipulate the driving dynamics?

    If you want to carry on believing that the cars and physics in GT6 bear anything more than a passing resemblance to the real world then that's your business, I frankly couldn't care less. What irks me is that you continue to preach about how its better and how the rest of us idiots are just not doing it right without being able to prove a thing except that you know how to quote someone else's work. When you're standing on top of the podium you've earned the right to tell others how its done, until then you've just got to accept that others know how to do it better and try to work out why
     
  19. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    I had to disagree on this, you'll gain more cornering grip by using camber in GT6, here's gone crazy example, check what speeds it can carry out on corners, it has ridiculous amount of camber, even done that amount and your saying is fighting against odds.


    Ford GT40 would never work fine with high rear camber, in real-world or in GT6.
    Drifter is fully copy from real-life and works fine, utilizes all aspects of tuning/physics and gains all benefits of camber as real-world.
    I don't have to proof, it's more like to show at there is also ways to tune fully working car with camber, and get it fast, as my TT edition shows at arcade style tuning is giving results what are faster, but same faster results would come on real-world too if someone just was crazy enough and willing to risk his life and drive such setup fast.
    Handling characteristics of zero camber car are, well.. Arcadeish, fast but also far away from handling characteristics what people are used to get/drive in real-world.

    Here's difference on approach, real rwd drifter needs maximum grip on leading front wheel, drifter will do anything to get more grip on leading wheel during cornering, it's not sliding.
    Comparing to real-world and your approach you're just preferring to soap tires slightly so no unwanted grip is coming to interfere your slide, totally opposite what drifter is.

    Using my drift setup as example, there is 100% grip on front all-time, unless you throw it on four wheel slide, rear has maximal grip all-time too and suspension, power of engine and weight transfer breaks traction, not camber.
    There is even wing utilised to gain bit more grip on rear for better traction control, wingtips to stabilize slide, wingstays what allows downforce to reduce on higher speeds and allow easier high speed drift, and give lot of downforce on slow speeds.
    Car in really nimble on control, as drifter should be, zero artificial sliding included, driver can easily do any drift maneuver as he wants.
    Again you may do drifting car just by stiffening springs adding ridiculous amount of camber and slide with that soap box around, but it's sliding even you doesn't want it to slide, controlling slide is there, but it's doing everything differently than real-world drifter does, I'm not saying at it's not drifter, it's drifter but it doesn't work on same principles as real-world drifter is intended to work.
    Again my point, it can be done working on same principles as real-world car would, that's proof on my tune there.

    Fitt compos results aren't holy grail for understanding how GT6 or real-life works, there is several tuning aspects covered, also there is lot between lines, harder the car is drive in natural form, better it will come by using camber on tune, you can tame "beast handling car" by using camber.. Doesn't make sense, well tamed car and it is also kinda quick, even on Fitt compo.
    Pointing out Fitt as source on camber doesn't make actual sense, any car can be tuned on zero camber, it will make really fast laps, IF you have skills to do so, or you have time to try enough times to get one clean lap. Point of using camber is to get car moderately (or more) fast and safe to drive races where you just can't restart lap and try again.
    I made TT zero camber tune out of Ford just for curiosity, when I tested, not grinded, tested on seasonal it went on ~P120 on second lap, yes it was faster than camber version, actually it was kinda stable considering at it's zero camber car, but it's not hanging higher than trade-off dynamic vs static change needed, but it's lot more vulnerable to drive than camber version, what went on third test lap ~P200.

    Sad at you couldn't care less, I'm caring only information, I like at different possible choices what people can choose are out there, visible for choosing, IF you read my writing you'll find out at I'm not saying at zero camber is slow, or bad, it's just unrealistic and will cause car to handle in unrealistic manner, it's faster for several times mentioned reasons.
    Never said you or kept you as idiot, but after reading "you know how to quote someone else's work" I'm starting to slowly wonder, I'm not quoting anything else than my own work, what you mean by this?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2016
  20. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Information is only useful if it bears results, sharing spans of theory that just doesn't apply in game is counter-productive at best and beyond misleading.
    You have your own thread where you are welcome to discuss what ever irrelevant nonsense you choose and pretend you can shoehorn a simulator into an arcade but I must ask you to keep it out of mine, this thread is meant to help beginner tuners get their feet on the ladder and you are insisting on applying soap to the steps and I will not stand for it. If you want to write your own guide about how to build your version of what you think is a realistic simulation then please go ahead and I promise you I will show you the basic respect to stay out of your business, this however is a place for helping people go faster, beat seasonal events and win races rather than confusing them into thinking that realistic will be effective so please show me the same respect and keep it out of mine
     
  21. Death2508

    Death2508

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    If you think that camber doesn't do anything you need a wakeup call and some more hours playing GT6. Camber definitely makes a difference in grip and lap times, and how your car behaves while cornering or drifting even if you're too bloody stubborn to see or admit it.
     
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  22. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    I never said it doesn't do anything, I said it doesn't do anything good in terms of peak grip. Don't mistake my stubbornness for ignorance, I've tested and tested the subject over hundreds and hundreds of hours under the uncompromising scrutiny of competition and the only thing it does in terms of lap time is harm. Ask any respected tuner in this forum and they'll tell you exactly the same thing and that they're sick of dealing with nut jobs who think that they're ahead of the curve by manipulating the mysteries of camber when really they're just ignoring the most obvious of facts because it makes them feel special.
     
  23. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Don't shoot the messenger.
    You personally can live in belief of "camber is broken", but don't preach it as only truth, let people have their free will to explore game. I'm not against your tuning guide, or zero camber, I just know at there is camber way around also, it makes tuning lot more interesting and "pairs" matching for several handling characteristics manipulations with camber included are giving many reliefs for misbehaving cars.
    CU
     
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  24. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Nobody asked for your opinion, I teach people to build fast cars and camber goes against that. Unlike you I've proven that I can build competitive cars whereas you just wait with excuses about why other people can't reproduce the isolated results that you seem to think are gospel. When you have proven yourself against others then I might pay more attention but until then you're just the next in a long line of people who thought they knew how to turn lead into gold.
     
  25. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    No you didn't ask, but if you're preaching untrue things, including how dampers work and how camber doesn't I can't just sit aside and eat popcorn.
    Damper controls the RATE of weight being transferred not the amount of weight.
    Preach as much as you want, but not false truth.
    I'm out from here.

    Edit: PS. I'm not against your tuning style, or you, only against spreading false information as fact.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2016
  26. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Funny how my lies have been playing out exactly as I said they would despite tuning by proxy without playing the game in 6 months, huh? Sure my terminology has been a bit all over the place as I'm out of practice but the method works for improving performance and that is the key difference between my information and yours. Get back on your wagon and sell your snake oil elsewhere, if you want to sniff your own farts and tell me it smells like roses then that's fine, just don't expect me to take your word for it in spite of what my own nose tells me
     
  27. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

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    Hi DolHaus:

    I've been testing your last indications trying to stiffen front DE and maybe soften rear DC, repeating twice or three times the same measurements, because now it's difficult for me to find substantial differences, and finally, I think I found the best results with the following numbers:

    DC 5/6
    DE 9/5

    Yes, I know, it seems to be very hard front extension, but with this configuration I've improved again my times since one month ago when I said you I'd improved with ARBs 7/7, do you remember? I don't know if this front DE could suggest my front spring rate would be very soften...

    -----------------

    On your post #526 you ask me for the areas on which the car could improve...

    ...well, sincerelly, I don't know where the limits of the Miata or any other car are and which the paths I must walk to reach them are. I've improved a lot with your teaches, but I don't know if there are more lessons or we've already finished... I hope there will be much more lessons.

    I feel the car much better, obviously, but I continue being a rookie tuner, I think it must have much more to learn and I like to continue learning... 200hp are ok, but I think it is a small and tiny ****, with my more sincere respects. I like to know how to tame a Reventon or One 77, or any GT500, or the Stratos, or any 700pp car... perhaps the beginnings are always the same, but what's wrong for example, when you start with the LSD and find that your car needs a higher "Initial" but seems to need a lower "Accel"? How can you know where is the trade-off and would be the moment to go to suspension?

    We haven't talk about ride height (RH), RH balance, brakes, brakes balance, ballast... I don't like to rub salt into the wound, but directly we haven't talk about camber, toe, ...

    An area that need to improve a lot is the gearbox, but we've already talked about it and you recommend me @Otaliema thread. Yes I've read his thread, I talked with him, he gave me some advices, but like I said to you, I don't like to mix subjects I prefer to finish the "suspensión box" and then open the "drivetrain (transmission) box"... and, besides, all of you recommend: "first the power parts, then the suspension and finally the gearbox" ;)

    Thank you :tup:
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
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  28. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    That's a good approach but a finished transmission can affect the suspension, if you build a high torque box you're going to have to adjust the suspension to accommodate it. And to the flip side, if you build s really stuff car you have to build a softer transmission so you don't over torque the tires.
     
  29. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Looks good to me :tup:

    The wonderful thing about dampers in GT6 is that they are relative to spring rate (they automatically adjust) so once you've got your dampers set you can change the spring rates at will in the search for more grip without changing the characteristics of the car too much. If you want to try stiffening the front spring rate then feel free, you can also try increasing and decreasing the ARBs and noting the effects. I would label this tuning sheet as "base" or something similar and copy the settings to another sheet before playing around so you don't risk losing any progress, it will allow you to directly compare the changes so you can get a better idea of whether the changes you have made are giving better performance or whether you've just got faster as a driver.

    Ride height is a bit of a weird one in GT, it essentially works on the principal that the longer the suspension travel the more grip it can generate. This means that a higher ride height acts like a softer spring and increases grip, the downside is a higher centre of gravity which makes the car prone to pitching and rolling around like a boat (much like softer springs but less negative aspects). In real life this sort of pitching and rolling would result in the car falling over whenever you so much as showed it a sharp corner but one of GT's quirks is that cars are very difficult to roll over so we can exploit this to our advantage.
    By raising the car simultaneously front and rear we can extract more grip but the car will become unstable when changing direction if it is set too high, in my experience its rarely much higher than the stock ride height but don't be afraid to try. Lowering the car will make it much more stable during direction change but there will be less total grip available and you have a much higher chance of bottoming out the suspension or bodywork the result of which is usually total grip loss on one or more wheels.
    You may have noticed that a lot of tunes have the front ride height much higher than the rear and this is because the tuner is exploiting the glitch to give the front end more grip to improve agility, conversely you may see some cars running higher at the rear and this is because the tuner is trying to generate more rear end grip to improve stability. The effect of having one end of the car higher than the other can be fairly pronounced and can offer a quick fix to many common problems regarding over and understeer, this said the exploit shouldn't be leaned on too much as it can cause a few unexpected issues. I would always advise looking at the ride height in terms of spring rate and try to strike a balance between the two, by this I mean if you were trying to overcome some understeer and found that increasing the front ride height helped then you should also look at softening the front springs both with and without the front end raised to check which gives a better result rather than just assuming that the ride height glitch is the best way to solve the issue. As with everything else, make measured changes and note the results :tup:

    Brake balance is more personal than anything and the important thing to remember is that the Race upgrade doesn't always mean more braking performance and neither to higher bias numbers, sometimes it just makes the ABS kick in harder and reduces braking force so be sure to check and compare. The basic rule is that a car with more front brake bias will brake better in a straight line but will be less capable of rotating during the braking phase, a rear biased car will be slightly less effective when braking in a straight line but better if you want to stay on the brakes while turning in. Weight distribution also comes into play and you will generally find that you need more relative bias at the heavier end of the car but this only really comes into play when dealing with rear heavy cars to stop the rear wanting to overtake the front during heavy braking, most FFs and FR's are fairly stable anyway so you can experiment more whereas MRs and RRs tend to be more of a handful.
    My general procedure is if I think the car is not braking effectively then I will raise both front and rear bias simultaneously and look for improvement using the stock brakes then do the same thing using the racing upgrade, once I find the roughly the right numbers I will adjust the front and rear bias separately and look for improvement, I like to throw the car into the corner while on the brakes so will usually start by looking at increasing the rear bias but as I said before its generally a personal preference rather than a true performance gain.

    Ballast is directly linked to spring rates and the overall balance of the car, it can be a very good way of modifying a cars performance and improving lap time. I was hoping to try another car with you after we finished this one where we would do some more extensive modifications and discuss the implications and necessary steps towards utilising them effectively, it just seemed more simple to skip over it on the first go to avoid confusion.

    Toe was going to be the next thing I was going to cover but I have just returned from a long journey so I will tackle it tomorrow, you should have plenty to experiment with in the mean time :tup:

    It is true that your transmission can affect the overall handling of the car but I felt that it was best to show him the tools to solve the problems he may encounter before confusing the issue further. I hope you'll be able to find time to run through transmission tuning with him once I'm done with the basic nuts and bolts, I'm sure he'll learn a lot :tup:
     
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  30. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    @DolHaus he has been reading and getting clairfaciton in the transmission thread. Once he's got the suspension down, than toss in the hard to build transmission setup.

    Something that is still a mystery to me is ARB's I know what they are supposed to do. But in practice in the game I found the following (after a tip from a fast little birdie)
    Start Max/Max on the ARB's, this gives maximum rotation on the car, adjust ONE ARB to improve grip on that end of the car.
    If your unable to find a happy place due to lack of grip, set both to minimum, than adjust ONE up to improve rotation. A Min/Max set up gives the best nose grip and tail slip but can in most cases make a car very hard to drive.
    When combined with a Ride Hight raked setup this can make dogs turn well and twitchy cars stable.
     
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